Overwintering Nucs

[Paul Zelenski]

A question for those experienced in overwintering nucs:

Last winter I had 100% success overwintering 2 double high and 1 triple high nuc. But, it was a relatively mild winter. Rumor is this year is going to be a very cold harsh winter. Is a double high nuc normally enough to overwinter successfully? Or would I be better served combining them into triple high nucs? I push a few right next to each other (migratory covers) so they can share some heat. I also do the dry sugar just as I do for normal hives.

[James]

What I do is rather unorthodox, but works really well.  I always put them on top of strong established hives above a thin sheet of plywood, either side by side (2 nucs) or usually in single brood boxes.  So the stack looks like:  2 brood boxes-a shim for feeding-thin plywood-single brood box with the nuc colony-shim for feeding-inner cover-blue foam-outer cover.  The shims are 1 and half inches, and have doors so I can slip a fondant cakes in quick in winter (if needed) without having to tear everything down.  And then I wrap in roofing felt.  And in general, those single boxes will be some of your most productive hives the next year.  I wish I had taken some temperature data just to see if the shared heat makes that much of a difference, but I'm assuming it does.  Trying to overwinter single boxes is usually a disaster.

[Greg V]

With my toy-swarm - will try to winter it an a garage.
Probably will screen the entrance, set it into the darkest corner with the entrance to the wall and that's it.
Will feed using jars.
The garage is usually just above freezing on its own (potatoes/carrots/beets/apples are store in the garage).

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 10:03:07 AM UTC-5, James wrote:

.......... Trying to overwinter single boxes is usually a disaster.

[Matthew Hennek]

Last winter I also had 100% success overwintering 1 double high nuc and 2 triple highs nucs (5 frame box, deep foundation). All were completely separated (not pushed next to another hive/nuc).  None were wrapped, but were protected with wind barriers like I do to all my hives.  All 3 were fed dry sugar like yours.  The double had very few resources and literally lived off the dry sugar from December until spring (I had to refill them in March).  The triples started eating the dry sugar late Feb to early March.  So with that experience,this year I'm overwintering my wooden nucs to 3+ high, but I'm also testing overwintering 5 frame nucs in jester nuc boxes that are pushed together and insulated well.  I don't have a lot of hopes that the 5-frame nucs will make it, but I have extra and want to see if it works.  

Dan's presentation at this months Columbia/sauk meeting showed 2 or 3 deep 4-frame nuc's I believe.  They were the Michael Palmer style boxes (divided bottom 10 frame deep box into 2 4 frame compartments with 2 separate 4 frame boxes on top of that deep box).  Perhaps he can chime in with more details.   

[Paul Zelenski]

Yeah, I'm hoping Dan has something to add. 

I had one double high that at all its food and dry sugar like yours and one that was more reasonable. I'm fine with giving lots of sugar if that is enough.

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[Paul Zelenski]

I suppose the other option, which I like now that I thought of it, is to put a medium of honey on top of any two deep nucs for more space and food. I could just add more deeps, but I don't have any extra drawn comb. I do, however, have lots of full honey supers to extract. 

Matt, I don't have much hope for your EZ nucs either. Mostly because there won't be much space for food, and no way to add any additional food. I also expect it will get very humid in there during winter. You may also want to add some type of upper entrance in case the bottom one gets clogged with dead bees. You'll have to let us know what you learn, though. You don't learn anything new if you never try anything new. 

On Aug 23, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Matthew Hennek <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Diahann Lohr]

For us newbies, could you explain what you mean by double and triple high nucs? What makes them different than normal hives? Thanks?

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Paul Zelenski wrote:

[Dan Curran]

From what I have gathered, Michael Palmer uses primarily 2 high double nucs that are fed until completely full except for a frame for the bees to cluster on. He also does some 3 high. I don't think he feeds dry sugar as you do but does feed some fondant in the spring.

I like at least 3 high, but I'm not as meticulous to make sure that they are fed exactly the right amount. I also like using dry on top as you mention, I have definitely noticed increased survival for those fed dry sugar vs. those that I skipped. I feed dry sugar, use a Buildrite inner cover, and wrap with tar paper. I won't see the bees from the end of November until mid-March or whenever I take the wraps off.

Dan

[Joseph Bessetti]

Hi Diahann,

The hives being described are maintained in boxes that are 4-5 frames wide, which is why they are being referred to as nucs.  Nucleus colonies are sold in the spring and early summer and are usually a 5-frame (deeps) starter colony with a laying queen, 3-4 frames of brood, and a frame of honey/pollen. 

These "nucs" are colonies maintained 4-5 frames wide as well, but as the colony grows a second and possibly a 3rd additional 4-5 frame wide box is added on top.  This is what is being referred to as "2-deep", and "3-deep", which is a colony of 8-10 and 12-15 frames respectively.  

Frequently, these colonies are arranged side-by-side so that the two colonies can share warmth during the winter.  Sometimes they are also stacked on top of a strong colony with a divider board between such that the heat rising off of the strong colony helps keep the small colonies above warm.  Sometimes a whole bunch of them are clustered together so that they can share warmth and reduce food consumption.

The advantage of these colonies vs. larger ones is that each one has a queen.  More small colonies means more queens overwintered.  Each overwintered queen that starts raising brood in late February or March usually grows into a very strong hive by the time the flow starts.

Regards,

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Diahann Lohr <glend...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 5:44 PM
To: madbees
Subject: [madbees] Re: Overwintering Nucs

 

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[Joseph Bessetti]

The other thing I'll add is that most beekeepers should focus on wintering full-sized hives before "experimenting" with wintering smaller colonies.   If you can't winter full-sized hives, you're not going to do any better with smaller colonies that require more attention. 

That said, it's pretty easy to generate 2 of these "2- 3-deep nucs" from a healthy overwintered colony, even without impacting honey production.  Once you have a system that works for you for consistently maintaining healthy colonies through the year, this might be something to consider.

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 10:17 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Overwintering Nucs

 

[Diahann Lohr]

Joe,

Thanks so much for your helpful explanation of the nucs vs. full hive. Simply said for easy understanding, yet very complete. So helpful!

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Paul Zelenski wrote:

[Greg V]

About huddling nucs...
What about making a wintering box? Thinking how to avoid making yet another hole in my house wall. So, an oversized box that can house N nucs inside, allow bee exit/entry in good weather (via tubing), allow access to feed bees, allow to add insulation around/over the nucs, weather-proof should work. A nuc-chest!

[Greg V]

Well, I read here:
Guideline #3: Start with nucs. (This means two things.)
http://parkerfarms.biz/starting.html

Now that I have two tiny nucs on hand, I actually appreciate this idea better.
In fact, it maybe a great learning experience to winter a nuc.
If nuc dies - you should have learned something at a small cost.
If nuc makes it to the next season - you still learned something at a small cost. And more....

Speaking of small colonies - these are a must-have in an apiary ecosystem in so many ways that no way around them.
You have to have continuous bee colony/queen (re)cycle going to stay afloat (one example, for non-chem mite infection management).
So the small colony wintering is an important part, not to be written off as just a curiosity (IMO).
With any luck, I can see always having on hand 2-3 nucs (and wintering them, of course).

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 11:06:55 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:

.... most beekeepers should focus on wintering full-sized hives before "experimenting" with wintering smaller colonies.  ..........

[Greg V]

Adding to the nuc-box spec a cheap wireless temp/humidity sensor and automatic thermostat/heater.
This should do it.
Materials are free.

[Greg V]

And of course - someone else has already done it (so I just invented yet another bike in my head).
Thanks for Google.

http://mbbeekeeping.com/wintering-2-frame-nucs-in-manitoba/

[James]

A thing to keep in mind is that when you provide heat to an overwintering hive, you alter the hibernating effects of the cold on the cluster.  In other words, you're making the bees more active than they usually would be.  That means more food consumption and faster aging.  The same holds true if you keep hives inside.  The quote I remember is a 60 day old bee in winter is physiologically younger than a 20 day old bee in summer.  It kind of explains why the quest for the over-wintering holy grail has been so elusive.  But go for it!  Over-wintered nucs are a real benefit in the quest for self-sufficiency.  Any data is helpful.

[Greg V]

Well, the point there is to: " keep the temperature just above freezing, around 4°C (39°F)." (a quote from the Manitoba site, but kinda common sense)
Hence the temp sensor/thermostat.

No need to alter proper hibernation.
Totally agree there.

On Thursday, August 25, 2016 at 8:22:53 AM UTC-5, James wrote:

..........you alter the hibernating effects of the cold on the cluster...........

[Greg V]

And also why I lean towards the outside placed nuc-box (vs. the garage).
Easier to just provide minimal, steady heat in the small outside structure to keep it about optimal (vs. trying to cool down or heat up the entire garage with all the car traffic there and vegetable/fruit storage too).

[William Palmer]

The real underlying reason why Mike Palmer overwinters NUC so well is the snow.   His area gets lots of snow (a good insulator).  We get cold weather and no snow.   When its so cold that the bees will not break cluster, they often starve to death with honey all around. The better we can insulate a colony increases overwinter survive ability.  All is a mute point if the Mites are not under control
.

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[Greg V]

Which, basically, just adds to the point - must have the temp just about or just above freezing and very steady at that.
How one can do it - less important.
Let it be snow cover, just the same.
Snow cover is great at exactly achieving this effect.

Meanwhile, I found a relevant study done in Madison, WI of all places.
A bit dated, but still; here it is:
http://beesource.com/resources/usda/electric-heating-of-honey-bee-hives/

Lots of good stuff in there.
Only quoting one of their findings that is relevant to specifically nuc wintering in a box:

Boxed Hives .................A weak cluster was held over winter at 25° and another one at 35°. In the spring both clusters were as strong as those that had been rated good in the fall.
Therefore, protection by heat does benefit weak clusters.....................

[jeanne hansen]

THANK YOU, Bill for mentioning Mites in the same breath as wintering techniques.

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

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From: William Palmer <easttr...@gmail.com>
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Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 5:16 PM

Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Overwintering Nucs

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[Greg V]

 Few pics of my nuc wintering box...

Liking how the box mitigates the external temp jumps so far per my readings.
Pretty much the point of it.