[week 3] Response+Discussion: Licko
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Prof. Madad
Sep 15, 2009, 1:07:38 PM9/15/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
1. Post your responses to:
Discovery by Design by Zuzana Licko
2. Response to your classmates' reactions and response.
Discovery by Design by Zuzana Licko
2. Response to your classmates' reactions and response.
Sarah Nock
Sep 15, 2009, 6:50:14 PM9/15/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Discovery by Design
Licko says that all new/experimental design has to be linked to
existing typographic possibilities because if the new design has no
roots in standard design sensibilities it will be dismissed as
nonsense. On the other hand, if there is nothing new or interesting
about the design it may also be dismissed. Licko suggests that one
should give the consumer just a slight bit of change in design. As
artists add changes to their designs and these changes are recognized
by the consumer, the consumer is made aware of a change in culture.
What makes something "acceptable" or interesting in design work
reflects upon the culture. She explains that it takes a lot of time to
make changes in design because the creation of new meanings tends to
mean the replacement or change of older meanings. Licko brought up the
idea of "obsolete" design. Maybe "obsolete" design can be used for its
feeling of nostalgia?
I liked that Licko brought up Timely and Timeless design and the
lifespan of ideas. It's something to consider when creating a projects
(whether the piece is timely or timeless). Both types of design have
times when they are appropriate but Licko says, and I'm sure Warde
(The Crystal Goblet) would agree, that timeless design is generally
viewed as being more valuable because it is seen as the process of
refinement.
Neville Brody Interview
I felt that this interview was a great followup to Licko's article.
I appreciated that he addressed some difficulties of being a designer.
First he said that he turns out both garbage and stuff he's proud of.
Another issue he addressed was that there's stuff you want to do and
then there are projects that you have to do for a client because you
really are just work for hire.
Brody said that he feels that visual culture is on the edge of
another "great leap forward". He explained that we have been in a
cultural hibernation because after the era of Ronald Regan culture was
only important if it had commercial validation. He says that he hasn't
seen any risks being taken and that graphic design basically is only
used commercially. It was interesting listening to Brody because he
has a lot of time and experience on us, and he has seen culture shifts
firsthand. He said that when he was in college people thought
revolution was possible and that "visual engineers" believed that
whatever they were working for would help society. He feels that
because certain constructs in our society (ie: wallstreet) are
weakening and collapsing, we are on the edge of design possibilities.
When Brody was reflecting on the consciousness of young people/
designers when he was in college I couldn't help but thing that nobody
"rebels" collectively today. Brody explains that people don't really
see taking risks as being positive...and I feel that a lot of that
comes from the visual market being driven by consumerism and people's
general need for, well, cash.
I thought it was kind of funny when the question of whether "punk"
made things better or worse culturally was proposed and he said that
it made things worse in some ways.Punk-related ideologies are mostly
concerned with individual freedom and anti-establishment views.
Earlier in the interview Brody had explained that his process is very
painterly and that it is exploratory. He said that the painterly
process reflects the subconsciousness of society. He then brought up
"Face" magazine. I'm not personally familiar with it but apparently it
was a sort of "punk-style" magazine- it was constantly reinventing
chance and possibility. He said that people just adopted the style on
the surface and ignored what was going on underneath. I suppose that
says a lot about our society's level of consciousness...
Licko says that all new/experimental design has to be linked to
existing typographic possibilities because if the new design has no
roots in standard design sensibilities it will be dismissed as
nonsense. On the other hand, if there is nothing new or interesting
about the design it may also be dismissed. Licko suggests that one
should give the consumer just a slight bit of change in design. As
artists add changes to their designs and these changes are recognized
by the consumer, the consumer is made aware of a change in culture.
What makes something "acceptable" or interesting in design work
reflects upon the culture. She explains that it takes a lot of time to
make changes in design because the creation of new meanings tends to
mean the replacement or change of older meanings. Licko brought up the
idea of "obsolete" design. Maybe "obsolete" design can be used for its
feeling of nostalgia?
I liked that Licko brought up Timely and Timeless design and the
lifespan of ideas. It's something to consider when creating a projects
(whether the piece is timely or timeless). Both types of design have
times when they are appropriate but Licko says, and I'm sure Warde
(The Crystal Goblet) would agree, that timeless design is generally
viewed as being more valuable because it is seen as the process of
refinement.
Neville Brody Interview
I felt that this interview was a great followup to Licko's article.
I appreciated that he addressed some difficulties of being a designer.
First he said that he turns out both garbage and stuff he's proud of.
Another issue he addressed was that there's stuff you want to do and
then there are projects that you have to do for a client because you
really are just work for hire.
Brody said that he feels that visual culture is on the edge of
another "great leap forward". He explained that we have been in a
cultural hibernation because after the era of Ronald Regan culture was
only important if it had commercial validation. He says that he hasn't
seen any risks being taken and that graphic design basically is only
used commercially. It was interesting listening to Brody because he
has a lot of time and experience on us, and he has seen culture shifts
firsthand. He said that when he was in college people thought
revolution was possible and that "visual engineers" believed that
whatever they were working for would help society. He feels that
because certain constructs in our society (ie: wallstreet) are
weakening and collapsing, we are on the edge of design possibilities.
When Brody was reflecting on the consciousness of young people/
designers when he was in college I couldn't help but thing that nobody
"rebels" collectively today. Brody explains that people don't really
see taking risks as being positive...and I feel that a lot of that
comes from the visual market being driven by consumerism and people's
general need for, well, cash.
I thought it was kind of funny when the question of whether "punk"
made things better or worse culturally was proposed and he said that
it made things worse in some ways.Punk-related ideologies are mostly
concerned with individual freedom and anti-establishment views.
Earlier in the interview Brody had explained that his process is very
painterly and that it is exploratory. He said that the painterly
process reflects the subconsciousness of society. He then brought up
"Face" magazine. I'm not personally familiar with it but apparently it
was a sort of "punk-style" magazine- it was constantly reinventing
chance and possibility. He said that people just adopted the style on
the surface and ignored what was going on underneath. I suppose that
says a lot about our society's level of consciousness...
Jacqueline Marinacci
Sep 17, 2009, 11:19:51 PM9/17/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Brody discuses bringing fine arts & other hand created art forms into
graphic design which I feel is crucial. Anyone can go on a computer
and grab images of google and call it their own. This angers me and
upsets me to think these people are getting recognition for other
people creative work. If an individual can hand create something and
introduce it to the digital world it makes them that much more
successful. Licko talks about the un-discovered design & the theory
that its out there waiting to be discovered. Agree & disagree. Ok Yes
possibilities are infinite, but if all design was to surface then
there would be no spontaneity in design.
On Sep 15, 1:07 pm, "Prof. Madad" <ama...@gmail.com> w
graphic design which I feel is crucial. Anyone can go on a computer
and grab images of google and call it their own. This angers me and
upsets me to think these people are getting recognition for other
people creative work. If an individual can hand create something and
introduce it to the digital world it makes them that much more
successful. Licko talks about the un-discovered design & the theory
that its out there waiting to be discovered. Agree & disagree. Ok Yes
possibilities are infinite, but if all design was to surface then
there would be no spontaneity in design.
On Sep 15, 1:07 pm, "Prof. Madad" <ama...@gmail.com> w
May Meyers
Sep 18, 2009, 1:02:51 PM9/18/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Response to Design Matters
In this radio show interview, host Debbie Millman discussed design,
inspiration, and a new era of optimism with British designer and art
director Neville Brody. Brody’s resume includes art directing Face
magazine and publishing the world’s top selling graphic design book in
1988. Brody, who claims to have picked up drawing before taking his
first steps, attended Halsey College of Art, and considers himself a
“visual communicator.” I enjoyed his description of painting as an
“exploration of the unknown.” He describes it as an intuitive
expression of the events that surround it, making each painting a
unique historical reflection of the subsurface of society at the time.
While Brody offered a wealth of design information, I found him at
times a bit self-righteous. He speaks of graphic designers with
subtle distaste, pointing out that Damien Hurst is not so much an
artist as a graphic designer and soap boxing on the inadequate
prerequisites of today’s graphic design graduates. He refers to them
as “artists that need to be briefed” while differentiating them from
true artists, “people who commission themselves” (naturally, Brody
falls into the latter category, as a self described “fine artist”).
The Q&A portion of Design Matters was a nice diversion from listening
to Brody and Millman try to impress one another. Caller Isabelle from
New York put Brody on the spot, asking which work he was both most and
least proud of (his Fuse work and a Gary Newman record cover,
respectively). Gregory from New Jersey posed the question of digital
versus film photography, and Brody’s vague, short answer was a bit of
a disappointment, as I fervently support the preservation of film
photography in an increasingly digital world. Disappointments aside,
there were many areas of the discussion where I agreed with – or at
least respected- Neville Brody. I appreciated that he touched on the
compromise between personal artistic integrity and pleasing your
clients that every designer must grapple with at some point in his or
her career. Neville also spoke positively on current visual culture,
reflecting on the past twenty five years of cultural hibernation. He
claims that throughout these past years, design has stagnated in
commercialism and avoided taking any real risks. He believes we have
finally achieved a cultural breakthrough and a new sense of optimism
(the interview was held just prior to President Obama’s election).
When politically questioned, Brody responded that while Obama will
never fully meet the public’s high expectations, his election will
stand as an icon of hope for America. This point segues into the
similarly iconic status of graphic designer Shepard Fairey, who
created Obama’s hope poster and went down in history on the Colbert
Report. I also agreed with Brody when he theorized that we are a
culture living out of fear, in the shadow of failures; we should
recognize that risk taking can be a positive thing. Millman
interjected that she questions her students as to whether they live
out of power or out of fear.
Neville Brody’s influences were intriguing; he credits Dadaism, punk,
Richard Hamilton and later Alexander Rodchenko as keystones in his
foundation of the idea that “anything is possible.” Brody contends
that society must continually be questioned and challenged and artists
should recognize this instead of sleepwalking through the social rule
book. He predicts that while the current economy will dictate a lack
of work for many designers, this should be viewed as positive;
students will not exit college with a sense of entitlement and will
have to work harder at their success. Brody concludes the interview
with the hope that his next artistic phase will venture into more
experimental work.
Response to Discovery by Design
In Discovery by Design, Zuzana Licko begins with the topic of
experimental investigation, the basis of both science and design,
bring Peter Bi’lak’s theories to mind. She points out the differences
in the investigation of naturally occurring phenomena in science and
culturally created phenomena in design. She exhausts the possibilities
of the English alphabet, potentially formed into every possible
combination and I saw how perfectly this article pertains to our
current assignment of combining two typefaces and creating their
offspring.
I appreciate that Licko connects any “new” artistic creations building
“upon existing preconceptions” a point I covered in previous reading
responses. I like how she demonstrates the duality between retro and
new design and timely versus timeless design. An example of timely
design I have noticed recently is the use of green as the primary ad
color. Society has been programmed now to make the mental connection
to environmental progress which this color has come to represent, and
I think green has the potential to become timeless in this context, as
environmentalism isn’t likely to go out of style any time soon. At
one point the typeface Papyrus was timely, riding the first wave of
new age medicines, retreats, and natural food products, because it was
so clearly associated with them. Now I believe its timeliness has
expired due to overuse. It now calls to mind earlier advertisements or
branding and appears copied because it is so visually distinctive, an
overly jeweled goblet competing with quieter crystal.
In this radio show interview, host Debbie Millman discussed design,
inspiration, and a new era of optimism with British designer and art
director Neville Brody. Brody’s resume includes art directing Face
magazine and publishing the world’s top selling graphic design book in
1988. Brody, who claims to have picked up drawing before taking his
first steps, attended Halsey College of Art, and considers himself a
“visual communicator.” I enjoyed his description of painting as an
“exploration of the unknown.” He describes it as an intuitive
expression of the events that surround it, making each painting a
unique historical reflection of the subsurface of society at the time.
While Brody offered a wealth of design information, I found him at
times a bit self-righteous. He speaks of graphic designers with
subtle distaste, pointing out that Damien Hurst is not so much an
artist as a graphic designer and soap boxing on the inadequate
prerequisites of today’s graphic design graduates. He refers to them
as “artists that need to be briefed” while differentiating them from
true artists, “people who commission themselves” (naturally, Brody
falls into the latter category, as a self described “fine artist”).
The Q&A portion of Design Matters was a nice diversion from listening
to Brody and Millman try to impress one another. Caller Isabelle from
New York put Brody on the spot, asking which work he was both most and
least proud of (his Fuse work and a Gary Newman record cover,
respectively). Gregory from New Jersey posed the question of digital
versus film photography, and Brody’s vague, short answer was a bit of
a disappointment, as I fervently support the preservation of film
photography in an increasingly digital world. Disappointments aside,
there were many areas of the discussion where I agreed with – or at
least respected- Neville Brody. I appreciated that he touched on the
compromise between personal artistic integrity and pleasing your
clients that every designer must grapple with at some point in his or
her career. Neville also spoke positively on current visual culture,
reflecting on the past twenty five years of cultural hibernation. He
claims that throughout these past years, design has stagnated in
commercialism and avoided taking any real risks. He believes we have
finally achieved a cultural breakthrough and a new sense of optimism
(the interview was held just prior to President Obama’s election).
When politically questioned, Brody responded that while Obama will
never fully meet the public’s high expectations, his election will
stand as an icon of hope for America. This point segues into the
similarly iconic status of graphic designer Shepard Fairey, who
created Obama’s hope poster and went down in history on the Colbert
Report. I also agreed with Brody when he theorized that we are a
culture living out of fear, in the shadow of failures; we should
recognize that risk taking can be a positive thing. Millman
interjected that she questions her students as to whether they live
out of power or out of fear.
Neville Brody’s influences were intriguing; he credits Dadaism, punk,
Richard Hamilton and later Alexander Rodchenko as keystones in his
foundation of the idea that “anything is possible.” Brody contends
that society must continually be questioned and challenged and artists
should recognize this instead of sleepwalking through the social rule
book. He predicts that while the current economy will dictate a lack
of work for many designers, this should be viewed as positive;
students will not exit college with a sense of entitlement and will
have to work harder at their success. Brody concludes the interview
with the hope that his next artistic phase will venture into more
experimental work.
Response to Discovery by Design
In Discovery by Design, Zuzana Licko begins with the topic of
experimental investigation, the basis of both science and design,
bring Peter Bi’lak’s theories to mind. She points out the differences
in the investigation of naturally occurring phenomena in science and
culturally created phenomena in design. She exhausts the possibilities
of the English alphabet, potentially formed into every possible
combination and I saw how perfectly this article pertains to our
current assignment of combining two typefaces and creating their
offspring.
I appreciate that Licko connects any “new” artistic creations building
“upon existing preconceptions” a point I covered in previous reading
responses. I like how she demonstrates the duality between retro and
new design and timely versus timeless design. An example of timely
design I have noticed recently is the use of green as the primary ad
color. Society has been programmed now to make the mental connection
to environmental progress which this color has come to represent, and
I think green has the potential to become timeless in this context, as
environmentalism isn’t likely to go out of style any time soon. At
one point the typeface Papyrus was timely, riding the first wave of
new age medicines, retreats, and natural food products, because it was
so clearly associated with them. Now I believe its timeliness has
expired due to overuse. It now calls to mind earlier advertisements or
branding and appears copied because it is so visually distinctive, an
overly jeweled goblet competing with quieter crystal.
Rose DeMaria
Sep 18, 2009, 2:46:04 PM9/18/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Licko discusses this idea of design and the creation of new meaning.
When Licko says design investigates culturally created phenomena she
thinks of this phenomena as the constant changing of meaning and what
is acceptable and not acceptable in our culture. There is a perfect
balance that designers have to find to keep the interest of the
consumers. As Licko said if the design is too familiar it will be
boring, so there needs to me a certain amount of recognizable
information to spur the consumers interest. Then she gets into timely
and timeless designs because meaning is always changing so we question
if the design will last when the meaning changes. Time and timeless is
appropriate in different situations, though as Licko says timeless
usually is deemed more valuable. It ended with mentioning how
designers are just in the right place at the right time but I like
that she goes on to compliment the designers talent or ability to
recognize that opportunity because that is a crucial part of being a
great designer being able to recognize the moment different concepts
are appropriate.
When Licko says design investigates culturally created phenomena she
thinks of this phenomena as the constant changing of meaning and what
is acceptable and not acceptable in our culture. There is a perfect
balance that designers have to find to keep the interest of the
consumers. As Licko said if the design is too familiar it will be
boring, so there needs to me a certain amount of recognizable
information to spur the consumers interest. Then she gets into timely
and timeless designs because meaning is always changing so we question
if the design will last when the meaning changes. Time and timeless is
appropriate in different situations, though as Licko says timeless
usually is deemed more valuable. It ended with mentioning how
designers are just in the right place at the right time but I like
that she goes on to compliment the designers talent or ability to
recognize that opportunity because that is a crucial part of being a
great designer being able to recognize the moment different concepts
are appropriate.
Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse
Sep 18, 2009, 9:49:13 PM9/18/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Response to Licko
I thought many points made in Licko's Discovery by Design was
interesting. It definitely made me think more about design today and
what it was like before and how things have evolved through changes in
culture, in people, and therefore changes in design that follows.
Licko stated that only those that fit into our preconceived notions of
context will have meaning, and new design equals new meaning. On the
other hand, even though a design is 'new,' it has to be relevant to
what has been created before, or else people will not be able to
relate to it and therefore will be dismissed, I could not agree more.
Licko also said that design is a way of informing us about current
culture, what is going around us, what is conceived as aesthetically
appealing, and so forth. Licko also discussed about obsolescence in
design. Design is used and reused and reused again over time. Some of
the things we see today will disappear in a few years and emerge
again. Just like fashion, all the things done right now have been done
before in the past. Reviving the 50's, 60's, 70's looks and using them
in the 21st century. Design is always recycling. Licko ends the text
with "Because, in the end, it is the expertise to communicate new
ideas to others that gives credibility to the designer's existence." I
am intrigued by this statement, as I have just learned in Copy Writing
class that ultimately, it doesn't matter what your idea is. As long as
you present it and defend it in such a way that someone is willing to
believe in it, thats how you survive as a design.
Response to Brody
I found the interview quite boring, frankly. Especially when Millman
tried to connect evolution to design. She took 10 minutes to elaborate
something out of nothing. Prior to Millman asking Brody whether he
thinks what he is doing right now is a reflection of what's going on
in the society, Brody took time to explain that his style is
"painterly," and that it is the exploration of the unknown which
unconsciously reveal what is going on in the society. So I thought
Millman asked a very stupid question, given that Brody already gave
her the answer even before she asked it. And I thought Millman didnt
know what she was talking when Brody asked her if colleges in America
have foundation courses on our freshmen year. She said, "there's not
anything quite like that here." Which is completely untrue, most art
schools HAVE foundation. It's REQUIRED. I thought it was odd that she
said we didn't. Criticism aside, I thought what Brody had to say was
very interesting. He stated that artists to day have to be "briefed."
Which is completely true, but I find nothing wrong with it. The world
has changed, art is now commercial. Although there are a lot of people
who still do art for art's sake, many no longer are. We do art
according to the wants and needs of commercialism. Nowadays everything
is commercialized. So I think Brody's approach to doing art is
different take that should be valued and not forgotten. He also
touched my heart for a second when he said he hated type and still
does. Not that I hate type. I guess I am still struggling on
discovering what type really means. But after two semesters of type, I
definitely understand why we are required to take four semesters of
it.
Noodee
I thought many points made in Licko's Discovery by Design was
interesting. It definitely made me think more about design today and
what it was like before and how things have evolved through changes in
culture, in people, and therefore changes in design that follows.
Licko stated that only those that fit into our preconceived notions of
context will have meaning, and new design equals new meaning. On the
other hand, even though a design is 'new,' it has to be relevant to
what has been created before, or else people will not be able to
relate to it and therefore will be dismissed, I could not agree more.
Licko also said that design is a way of informing us about current
culture, what is going around us, what is conceived as aesthetically
appealing, and so forth. Licko also discussed about obsolescence in
design. Design is used and reused and reused again over time. Some of
the things we see today will disappear in a few years and emerge
again. Just like fashion, all the things done right now have been done
before in the past. Reviving the 50's, 60's, 70's looks and using them
in the 21st century. Design is always recycling. Licko ends the text
with "Because, in the end, it is the expertise to communicate new
ideas to others that gives credibility to the designer's existence." I
am intrigued by this statement, as I have just learned in Copy Writing
class that ultimately, it doesn't matter what your idea is. As long as
you present it and defend it in such a way that someone is willing to
believe in it, thats how you survive as a design.
Response to Brody
I found the interview quite boring, frankly. Especially when Millman
tried to connect evolution to design. She took 10 minutes to elaborate
something out of nothing. Prior to Millman asking Brody whether he
thinks what he is doing right now is a reflection of what's going on
in the society, Brody took time to explain that his style is
"painterly," and that it is the exploration of the unknown which
unconsciously reveal what is going on in the society. So I thought
Millman asked a very stupid question, given that Brody already gave
her the answer even before she asked it. And I thought Millman didnt
know what she was talking when Brody asked her if colleges in America
have foundation courses on our freshmen year. She said, "there's not
anything quite like that here." Which is completely untrue, most art
schools HAVE foundation. It's REQUIRED. I thought it was odd that she
said we didn't. Criticism aside, I thought what Brody had to say was
very interesting. He stated that artists to day have to be "briefed."
Which is completely true, but I find nothing wrong with it. The world
has changed, art is now commercial. Although there are a lot of people
who still do art for art's sake, many no longer are. We do art
according to the wants and needs of commercialism. Nowadays everything
is commercialized. So I think Brody's approach to doing art is
different take that should be valued and not forgotten. He also
touched my heart for a second when he said he hated type and still
does. Not that I hate type. I guess I am still struggling on
discovering what type really means. But after two semesters of type, I
definitely understand why we are required to take four semesters of
it.
Noodee
Emily Vukson
Sep 19, 2009, 11:26:02 AM9/19/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Interview with Neville Brody:
I found the Design Matters interview to be very interesting,
especially when Debbi Millman began the show with an analogy of design
being like genetic mutation. Is the way we perceive or create design
a matter of randomness, genetic innovation, inherent behavior,
destiny, or something entirely different? We may never really know
the answer to that question, but it is an intriguing question
nonetheless. I also found it interesting how Neville Brody said that
he considered himself a fine artist before a graphic designer. He
said that graphic designers were simply "artists who need to be
briefed," whereas fine artists "commission themselves." Brody also
suggested that design is an everyday struggle - a piece of work may
simultaneously be successful and a failure, but in the end a designer
must use the tools in society to make a bigger impact.
I also found Brody's view that the bad economy of today may actually
have a silver lining for graphic designers. Yes, he noted that there
will probably be a lot of designers out of work, but Brody suggested
that it will be a good learning experience for those just stepping out
into the working world in that no one is just going to be handed a
job, but the people who really have a style and work the hardest will
be rewarded. He and Millman also suggested that people do not take
enough chances nowadays. Graphic Design has become very commercial
and people are too afraid to take big risks. When someone does come
up with a good idea, it seems as though everyone else is lined up
waiting to steal it or copy it in one form or another. New and fresh
ideas do not seem to be popping up as much as they probably should.
I sort of agree with Brody and Millman. I think that designers do not
take enough risk. When walking down the street, one can see the same
style of design over and over again, as though designers are too
afraid to take a giant leap in creativity (or at least it can seem
that way sometimes). It can be hard, though. Even though I, like
many others, am just a student, I often times feel a little too afraid
to take a big leap in design. I think we all are like that - probably
more often than not if we really think about it.
Discovery by Design by Zuzana Licko:
Zuzana Licko asks a very interesting question of whether design is
owned or not, and does it really have a 'ruling hour.' Licko writes
that design is somewhat a subjective thing: "the entire concept of
using 26 letters is an arbitrary one." Couldn't typographic design
include more than just that? It may not make any sense to us, but
could not any real squiggle on a page really be considered
typography? (Hey, it could be some sort of alien alphabet.)
Then there is the question of what is considered 'new' design, and
whether design has a life span or not. If something is considered
'new,' that is implying that there is something considered 'old.' Who
says what is old and what is new? Is not that an arbitrary thing,
too? What is considered 'standard' or 'classic?' Sometimes, a design
considered 'old' may be revived with a new twist, a sort of 'retro'
movement. But who says that design goes out of fashion in the first
place? Licko suggests that more conservative designs are considered
'timeless,' and are often used for things that cost a great deal of
money or will be there a while. As an example, the subway signs might
be considered timeless because they have a very clean and simple
design, and they probably cost an enormous amount of money to put up
in the first place. On the other hand, TV commercials are here today
and gone tomorrow, and they have to sell their product/service NOW.
Commercials have a much higher allowance to be 'trendy' than subway
signs.
I thought that Licko's points were very interesting. When I got to
think about it, it's very difficult to tell what or why design can be
considered timeless or trendy. It really is an arbitrary thing!
Sure, what if things in ancient past changed and our alphabet ended up
looking completely different? It's quite an amazing thing to think
about.
I found the Design Matters interview to be very interesting,
especially when Debbi Millman began the show with an analogy of design
being like genetic mutation. Is the way we perceive or create design
a matter of randomness, genetic innovation, inherent behavior,
destiny, or something entirely different? We may never really know
the answer to that question, but it is an intriguing question
nonetheless. I also found it interesting how Neville Brody said that
he considered himself a fine artist before a graphic designer. He
said that graphic designers were simply "artists who need to be
briefed," whereas fine artists "commission themselves." Brody also
suggested that design is an everyday struggle - a piece of work may
simultaneously be successful and a failure, but in the end a designer
must use the tools in society to make a bigger impact.
I also found Brody's view that the bad economy of today may actually
have a silver lining for graphic designers. Yes, he noted that there
will probably be a lot of designers out of work, but Brody suggested
that it will be a good learning experience for those just stepping out
into the working world in that no one is just going to be handed a
job, but the people who really have a style and work the hardest will
be rewarded. He and Millman also suggested that people do not take
enough chances nowadays. Graphic Design has become very commercial
and people are too afraid to take big risks. When someone does come
up with a good idea, it seems as though everyone else is lined up
waiting to steal it or copy it in one form or another. New and fresh
ideas do not seem to be popping up as much as they probably should.
I sort of agree with Brody and Millman. I think that designers do not
take enough risk. When walking down the street, one can see the same
style of design over and over again, as though designers are too
afraid to take a giant leap in creativity (or at least it can seem
that way sometimes). It can be hard, though. Even though I, like
many others, am just a student, I often times feel a little too afraid
to take a big leap in design. I think we all are like that - probably
more often than not if we really think about it.
Discovery by Design by Zuzana Licko:
Zuzana Licko asks a very interesting question of whether design is
owned or not, and does it really have a 'ruling hour.' Licko writes
that design is somewhat a subjective thing: "the entire concept of
using 26 letters is an arbitrary one." Couldn't typographic design
include more than just that? It may not make any sense to us, but
could not any real squiggle on a page really be considered
typography? (Hey, it could be some sort of alien alphabet.)
Then there is the question of what is considered 'new' design, and
whether design has a life span or not. If something is considered
'new,' that is implying that there is something considered 'old.' Who
says what is old and what is new? Is not that an arbitrary thing,
too? What is considered 'standard' or 'classic?' Sometimes, a design
considered 'old' may be revived with a new twist, a sort of 'retro'
movement. But who says that design goes out of fashion in the first
place? Licko suggests that more conservative designs are considered
'timeless,' and are often used for things that cost a great deal of
money or will be there a while. As an example, the subway signs might
be considered timeless because they have a very clean and simple
design, and they probably cost an enormous amount of money to put up
in the first place. On the other hand, TV commercials are here today
and gone tomorrow, and they have to sell their product/service NOW.
Commercials have a much higher allowance to be 'trendy' than subway
signs.
I thought that Licko's points were very interesting. When I got to
think about it, it's very difficult to tell what or why design can be
considered timeless or trendy. It really is an arbitrary thing!
Sure, what if things in ancient past changed and our alphabet ended up
looking completely different? It's quite an amazing thing to think
about.
Emily Vukson
Sep 19, 2009, 11:32:04 AM9/19/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
I found it interesting that Sarah compared Linko's ideas to Ward's,
and I agree. Ward was probably thinking that timeless design was like
the crystal goblet. You shouldn't have to think about it, it should
just be there and be perfect. If you think about the subway signs,
you don't really look at them and consciously think about the typeface
or the colors of the subway 'dots,' you just read the signs and head
where you need to go. And it is generally considered (probably by
Linko, too) that the design of the subway signs is timeless. So yes,
I agree that Ward's Crystal Goblet and Linko's Timeless Design could
be one and the same--complements of one another.
and I agree. Ward was probably thinking that timeless design was like
the crystal goblet. You shouldn't have to think about it, it should
just be there and be perfect. If you think about the subway signs,
you don't really look at them and consciously think about the typeface
or the colors of the subway 'dots,' you just read the signs and head
where you need to go. And it is generally considered (probably by
Linko, too) that the design of the subway signs is timeless. So yes,
I agree that Ward's Crystal Goblet and Linko's Timeless Design could
be one and the same--complements of one another.
Emily Vukson
Sep 19, 2009, 11:40:03 AM9/19/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
I found Noodee's response to the interview with Brody to be very
interesting. I must admit I also got a little secretly defensive when
Millman denied that there is no foundation year in America. I was
thinking: "oh yes there IS, Millman! Get with the times (new roman,
ha ha)!" (ok that type joke was bad) I also found it interesting
that artists have to be 'briefed.' I don't see any problem with that
either. Yes, I do think that Brody paved a bit of a road in new
design, but I agree that today's world is very commercial and that it
is OK. Some people don't like the thought of that. I think that it
is good to have your own style, but you do not have to 'buck the
system' of having clients come and ask you to do something such and
such a way. I think there can be a 'happy-middle' there. And has
anyone Googled up some images of Brody's work? I think the graphic
quality of them is amazing!
On Sep 18, 9:49 pm, Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse
interesting. I must admit I also got a little secretly defensive when
Millman denied that there is no foundation year in America. I was
thinking: "oh yes there IS, Millman! Get with the times (new roman,
ha ha)!" (ok that type joke was bad) I also found it interesting
that artists have to be 'briefed.' I don't see any problem with that
either. Yes, I do think that Brody paved a bit of a road in new
design, but I agree that today's world is very commercial and that it
is OK. Some people don't like the thought of that. I think that it
is good to have your own style, but you do not have to 'buck the
system' of having clients come and ask you to do something such and
such a way. I think there can be a 'happy-middle' there. And has
anyone Googled up some images of Brody's work? I think the graphic
quality of them is amazing!
On Sep 18, 9:49 pm, Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse
Daisy Chong
Sep 20, 2009, 3:43:24 PM9/20/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
I actually listened to Brody's cast first before reading, and
excluding the first few minutes of when Millman tried to connect
science (she says this herself) with everything she talks about, which
was sort of a waste of time, I agreed with most of the points Brody
spoke of. There were a few things that stuck in my mind, though.
Starting with what I disagreed with, Brody stated that foundations
were different for each major. From personal experience and from
reading/hearing what others have had to say, everyone that goes into
art has some sort of 'fine arts' foundation, where we draw by hand for
a period of time. Fine arts major needing it for what they do later in
life, and graphic design/commercial design majors because you can't
just throw someone with no experience into the commercializing world
expecting them to sell products for their company via their artwork. I
know people who go into majors just expecting it's a good major and
going in with no experience at all, and it's the most stupid thing in
the world, more competition over retarded people. This leads into one
point I agree with on Brody, Anyone can just take a good idea or a
good picture off the internet, but in the modern days, it takes much
thinking and hard work put into the thought process to create a work
that will attract people to be curious enough to look further into or
buy the product line. I think the interview with Brody was fun, there
were just some things i agreed and disagreed to.
As some of my classmastes have said, Brody's interview would've been a
good followup to Zuzano Licko's article, however listened to the
interview first.. It was an interesting startup line: "science
investigates naturally occurring phenomena, while design investigates
culturally created phenomena" Zuzano gives many examples on meaning
and what typography really means; if it has to be linked to something.
I feel like she repeats her message too many times in this article,
and the only few good notes I got out of this was the starting and
ending lines/paragraph.
excluding the first few minutes of when Millman tried to connect
science (she says this herself) with everything she talks about, which
was sort of a waste of time, I agreed with most of the points Brody
spoke of. There were a few things that stuck in my mind, though.
Starting with what I disagreed with, Brody stated that foundations
were different for each major. From personal experience and from
reading/hearing what others have had to say, everyone that goes into
art has some sort of 'fine arts' foundation, where we draw by hand for
a period of time. Fine arts major needing it for what they do later in
life, and graphic design/commercial design majors because you can't
just throw someone with no experience into the commercializing world
expecting them to sell products for their company via their artwork. I
know people who go into majors just expecting it's a good major and
going in with no experience at all, and it's the most stupid thing in
the world, more competition over retarded people. This leads into one
point I agree with on Brody, Anyone can just take a good idea or a
good picture off the internet, but in the modern days, it takes much
thinking and hard work put into the thought process to create a work
that will attract people to be curious enough to look further into or
buy the product line. I think the interview with Brody was fun, there
were just some things i agreed and disagreed to.
As some of my classmastes have said, Brody's interview would've been a
good followup to Zuzano Licko's article, however listened to the
interview first.. It was an interesting startup line: "science
investigates naturally occurring phenomena, while design investigates
culturally created phenomena" Zuzano gives many examples on meaning
and what typography really means; if it has to be linked to something.
I feel like she repeats her message too many times in this article,
and the only few good notes I got out of this was the starting and
ending lines/paragraph.
Olivia Gulin
Sep 20, 2009, 8:10:53 PM9/20/09
to madad...@googlegroups.com
Both Licko and the Brody interview explore the nature of design's change with some degree of respect to ideas concerning biological evolution. The possibilities are endless for the future, but what fuels change towards it?
Millman opens with a reflection on the ideas of biological evolution and the randomness that generates them. Any change is built upon a biological error; something that went "wrong" and turned out to be useful, was replicated, spread, and standardized. In Licko's writing, the generation of a new design is "the creation of new meanings; that is, new contexts for typographic
possibilities." I suppose this can be thought of, in biological terms, as a use for a particular mutation that might be otherwise discarded.
Which mutations (or meanings) are appropriate, then? Licko writes that certain ideas become ripe depending on the cultural environment. She posits that to be good, design must be sufficiently new to be interesting, yet referential enough to be digestible.
She touches on the ideas of timliness vs. timelessness, and the values of each. She takes the middle road and pretty much says that there's a time and a place for one or the other... and that timelessness seems to be held higher, though for no real objective reason other than we seem to think that we should be trying for some kind of "perfection" for which timelessness seems to be a signifier, and which only really exists in our retro-fitted perception of history.
For the most part, I guess I can understand her sentiments. But Licko's language trips me up. For example, when does any design exist outside of previous design history? She suggests " that design which 'pushes the envelope' must build upon existing preconceptions." Well, of course. Pushing an envelope implies that there is an envelope to be pushed on... but I can't think of any real way to produce a piece of work that would actually produce something without reference to preconceptions. I'm kindof curious to see what kind of design has been dismissed as nonsense...
I'm also curious about her reference to people as "consumers" in the context of design, especially with reference to what Brody says about the commercialization of art in the Reagan / Thatcher era. About this he says, culture was then, "in the service of selling...culture wasn't there to make you think any more, it was to make you buy," and that things were "only valid if it had commercial validation." Maybe Licko's use of the word "consumer" wasn't meant in such a commercial sense, but her concern for design in terms of what will be "dismissed" or "understood" makes me think that she is of the era that Brody speaks about. Googling her, it seems she founded Emigre in 1984--right at the 25 year mark that Brody seems to think is a beginning of slump in design.
Is that kind of thought a problem? A lot of the other responses seem to say no, it's okay. Personally, I think it can be a problem when it gets in the way of the other values these two designers cite, namely taking risks and incorporating newness. Commercial design does not necessarily mean stagnant design, but more often than not, when money's involved and you're working for somebody else, it's difficult to and try something new. When asked about film vs. digital media, Brody says that digital poses the problem of endless editing and annoying clients who always want to nitpick designs. How much of a risk can you take when you're doing it for somebody whose business (perhaps even livelihood) is at stake? While not every project can be personal or completely out there, I think it's important to have enough of what Brody calls a "fine artist" in you to be self-motivated so that you can take all the risks you want.
At first, I was confused by Licko's notion of "design discoveries." She says, "It may be true that all designs exist in the fabric of typographic possibility. However, since not all possibilities can exist at the same time, there must be
some way to intelligently choose possibilities that will have meaning; that intelligent force comes from designers."
What? It almost seemed like there is a Cosmic River of Designs from which we must fish out the most appropriate one and hope that it's new but not too new and interesting but also timely or maybe timeless... maybe I'm exaggerating, but it seemed to remove a lot of agency from the role of the designer. While there is a lot of intuition at work in design, I never really imagine anybody "discovering" their design so much as conceiving and working towards it. I figured the discovery is in the process of designing, through which you make cogent decisions (or in her language, "intelligently choose possibilities") and wind up with a finished product ("discover the design possibility").
- OG
http://www.oliviagulin.com
maggie garcia
Sep 20, 2009, 8:14:39 PM9/20/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
I found Design Matters to be more intriguing, but agree with both
pieces. Discovery by Design discusses that "new design is the
creation of new meaning" but must also be based off of an already
existing design. The article explains that unless the design has a
recognizable foundation, the entire design will be see as "nonsense"
and "dismissed". Licko also continues to explain that if there is
nothing new to the design it will be again "dismissed" out of pure
boredom. I believe her statements are accurate. If a viewer doesn't
understand a piece, or cannot relate it to something of substance, he/
she will become uninterested, the same goes if the piece is so
recognizable or overused that there is nothing to trigger a new
feeling or idea.
Licko then begins to expain the difference between "timeless" and
"timely". Changes that occur so slowly that we don't even realize
them- are considered to me "timeless", while change that occur quickly
are "timely". Although both can bring forth either a positive or
negative perception, neither is looked at as positively positively or
negatively. She notes that "timeless" is actually seen as most
valuable.
Licko ends with the idea that a large matter of design is being in the
right place at the right time, along with an artists talent and
willingness to "go out on a limb" that "deserves claim to ownership".
Design Matters is based on the same idea as Discovery by Design. She
explains that evolution is driven by natural selection and mutation,
giving those with the mutation a competitive edge over others. She
states that error in mutation is the foundation in all evolution, but
in many cases can be harmful, like a cancer.
She explains the two most popular theories of behavior. 1. is the
idea that behavior of the modern man is a result of agrigation of
knowledge, skills, and culture. and 2. the idea that seeds of modern
behavior occured as a single sudden event came as a result of a series
of mutation by logical organization. I believe it is a combination of
both. As culture changes, people will evolve with it on their own,
using their own personal experience and lifestyles to move forward
with time. While at the same time, natural selection and genetic
mutation will continue to change culture, forcing behavior to adapt to
the new culture it creates.
pieces. Discovery by Design discusses that "new design is the
creation of new meaning" but must also be based off of an already
existing design. The article explains that unless the design has a
recognizable foundation, the entire design will be see as "nonsense"
and "dismissed". Licko also continues to explain that if there is
nothing new to the design it will be again "dismissed" out of pure
boredom. I believe her statements are accurate. If a viewer doesn't
understand a piece, or cannot relate it to something of substance, he/
she will become uninterested, the same goes if the piece is so
recognizable or overused that there is nothing to trigger a new
feeling or idea.
Licko then begins to expain the difference between "timeless" and
"timely". Changes that occur so slowly that we don't even realize
them- are considered to me "timeless", while change that occur quickly
are "timely". Although both can bring forth either a positive or
negative perception, neither is looked at as positively positively or
negatively. She notes that "timeless" is actually seen as most
valuable.
Licko ends with the idea that a large matter of design is being in the
right place at the right time, along with an artists talent and
willingness to "go out on a limb" that "deserves claim to ownership".
Design Matters is based on the same idea as Discovery by Design. She
explains that evolution is driven by natural selection and mutation,
giving those with the mutation a competitive edge over others. She
states that error in mutation is the foundation in all evolution, but
in many cases can be harmful, like a cancer.
She explains the two most popular theories of behavior. 1. is the
idea that behavior of the modern man is a result of agrigation of
knowledge, skills, and culture. and 2. the idea that seeds of modern
behavior occured as a single sudden event came as a result of a series
of mutation by logical organization. I believe it is a combination of
both. As culture changes, people will evolve with it on their own,
using their own personal experience and lifestyles to move forward
with time. While at the same time, natural selection and genetic
mutation will continue to change culture, forcing behavior to adapt to
the new culture it creates.
Inyoung Choi
Sep 20, 2009, 11:49:30 PM9/20/09
to madad...@googlegroups.com
Responce to Discovery by Design
In the beginning, Zuzana Licko explained the experimental investigates based on science and design.
About phenomenon, science investigates occur naturally. On the other hand design investigates created phenomenon culturally.
By using the 26 letters in alphabet, Licko gives the message that people have to create an appropriate context.
What she focus on is not just a sequence of letters, but gives meaning.
Also,Licko presents that the creation of new meanings is new design.
New contexts for typographic possibilities must be connected existed ones.
Consumers start to intrigue unrecognizable information of their interest.
Through these changes, those consumers are educated by changing design.
Moreover, today occurs continuously the process that reassimilation and adding or changing of meaning in our enviroment.
These phenomenon effects to changing environment and further certain ideas become ripe.
However, if a certain design gets older, does it have to change that format?
Licko discusses that some meaning become obsolete in design.
Is it possible to handle to omit existed meaning?
It is hard to decide which one is long-term design and short-term design.
Then, it is impossible to predict what happen going on, and continue next step.
Licko suggests the meaning between "timeless" and "timely."
If the ideas are changed slowly, it can be seen as timeless and if the ideas are changed quickly, it can be seen as timely.
These two words have various meanings, and sometimes it can be positive or negative perception, neither truly are present as positively or negatively.
Moreover, it is more important that these two meaning have value about appropriateness of use.
She has her favorable perspective in timelessness.
Through an designers talent and willingness to "go out on a limb" that "deserves claim to ownership",
Licko ends with the idea that a large matter of design is existed in the appropriate place at the appropriate time.
Reponse to Interview with Neville Brody
Brody discusses fine art and other format made art in graphic design.
It is easy to use googling and pasting image as like people own works.
In this interview, Brody suggested that the people who effort their own works hardly will be rewarded.
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