[week 9] Response+Discussion: Pentagram+Siegel

[Prof. Madad]

Post your responses to:
The World of Pentagram 2007
The New New Typography by Dimtri Siegel

[May Meyers]

Response to The New New Typography by Dmitri Siegel

My initial reaction to Vier5’s work was resentment at the success of
something that I found so aesthetically displeasing. While these new
typefaces work in artistic applications like posters or magazine
covers where type volume is minimal, I reasoned that they could never
be applied to say, a book format, where type is the primary (or only)
element and readability is a necessity.
Nevertheless, it is revolutionary work in the sense that it is
conceptually uncharted territory; Vier5 has successfully pioneered the
marriage of organic hand drawn type forms with digitally generated
ones. Siegel poses the question “is there a difference between being
new and being modern?” and while Vier5 describes it as the latter, I
personally think “new” or “contemporary” is a more fitting
description. “Modern” comes with the connotation of Modernism which
will eventually appear dated and just become another art history term
like Futurism (which obviously is no longer futuristic).
While I can respect Vier5’s drive to invent, I don’t think we can or
will cast aside classic typefaces in favor of these (or any) new ones.
These older typefaces have stood the test of time for a reason. Sure,
maybe no one would really miss Giddyup, but fonts like Futura,
Helvetica and Garamond are successful because they have a more
timeless quality and lend themselves to multifarious applications. I
absolutely agree that artists and designers shouldn’t limit themselves
to existing typefaces and should explore new avenues of type creation
and use. With all due respect however, I suspect Vier5’s role in
defining the type of the future will be limited to a Times New Roman
paragraph in the art history books of the future.

[Rose DeMaria]

The World of Pentagram video was very inspiring. Though the first half
is impossible to follow timeline as the screen changes and the women
speaks quickly as th they begin to speak of the business basic
fundamentals I feel their passion. I love the point that they make
that it is all about the people and for us to notice that there is no
catch slogan or list of there disciplines. They take on clients and
can approach everything the way they would like to approach it that
would be appropriate for each different situation. The description of
the project of the P representing Pentagram being cut into 18 pieces
to represent the partners had such great symbolism as it supposed to
represent movement and change that still holds together their central
idea s they are a strong team with all their partners even as they
come and go.

For The New New Typography, I agree with may on so many levels,
though when I first saw the first, second and fourth poster I was very
aesthetically pleased. The application of the type in the third one
made me want to quickly move to the next frame. But as May said, these
typefaces are strong for posters where limited type is used and if
they were used as body copy through out a book or used for a block of
text it would be very illegible. As for the question whether there is
a difference between being new and modern I think it is a tough one, I
think like May suggested modern will be a dated term and in my opinion
may already be a dated term and new still stands strong to me as
contemporary creative execution.

[Jacqueline Marinacci]

The people in Pentagram talk about their "organization" and how it is
unlike any other design company. They are not solely concerned with
placing people in permanent positions and giving everyone a specific
tittle; as each individual has something to offer ( architects, fine
artist, typographer, etc..) All of these backgrounds only promise to
broaden their cliental and appear to be more open to new and aspiring
ideas, whereas Vier5 already cut off some of their fingers when they
stated that "you cannot work with modern pictures and at the same time
use the typefaces of the last 50 years..." Well if you look at the
ending slide show of Pentagram they dissect, distort, strip, photos
and text of their bare essentials that initially keep them structured.
They create beautifully well rendered books, packaging, signage, etc..
So this basically ties back to the fact that a team of well rounded
designers is designed to create more then just posters as seen with
Vier5. Maybe if Vier5 did not toss aside old typefaces and were more
accepting to mixing old and new ( which contradictorily they are by
mixing computer generated text with hand written text, may I remind
you that the first books, scrolls, manuscripts, etc..) were all hand
written, and even though they did not have computers hand written
letters have a much more attention and tactile aroma that makes them
momentous. Vier5 should push that notion more so and the maybe they
can create more hierarchy and power within their work.

On Oct 27, 8:12 pm, "Prof. Madad" <ama...@gmail.com> wrote:

[May Meyers]

Response to The World of Pentagram 2007

What an ingenious way to construct a business; I love how Pentagram
broke the capitalist business mold and created a unique way for
designers, artists, architects, etc. to collaborate and remain on
equal footing. The worldwide success of Pentagram proves that a
business can flourish without the corporate hierarchy America has come
to view as the norm. Pentagram also prevents any individual from
gaining more power or notoriety in the fellowship than his or her
peers; it operates like a revolving door, continually adding fresh
ideas via new members, as old members move on. I have always thought
that Communism and Socialism were great ideas in theory, but have
gained a bad rap due to flawed execution. Pentagram has utilized
elements of these systems brilliantly, and the result is a successful
collective of partners who produce great work because the focus is the
work and not the office politics.

On Oct 27, 8:12 pm, "Prof. Madad" <ama...@gmail.com> wrote:

[jess]

I agree with Rose when she says that the Pentagram video was
inspirational yet hard to follow in the beginning. It was interesting
when Paula was going through each branch and all of the people that
had come and gone. It goes to show how one good solid idea of starting
this company has really flourished into something spectacular. You can
sense the strong unity and enthusiasm that each person has through out
the video shown. I felt as if they truly enjoyed the way the company
was being run and I also appreciated, like May, that they were
straying away from corporate hierarchy. The success shown throughout
the film especially in the end when they were quickly going through
more of there graphic design posters and books.

The exhibition posters I found to be pleasing but not in the best way.
I did not enjoy the type until the very last poster. I think the
bizarre forms that were being created out of type were interesting but
it did not grab my attention. Instead I wanted to look away as fast as
I could. I do think that the point of modern type is fascinating but
in terms of newer type forms that I enjoy....those are not among my
top. The image and colors in the last poster really caught my eye.
However the third poster looked as if a 4 year old did it in my
opinion. I prefer the blocky type compared to the fluid, curvy ones.

[Emily Vukson]

Response to The New Typography by Dmitri Siegel:

Marco Fiedler and Achim Reichert of the French design team Vier5
embrace the concept of modernity and the new look of contemporary
design. They prefer a movement towards new letter forms, stating that
"you cannot work with modern pictures and at the same time us the
typefaces of the last 50 years." On some of their posters, Fiedler
and Reichert use letters that rely heavily on the computer, and make
rather awkward and jagged forms.

I don't necessarily think that I agree with Vier5's statement. Yes, I
do think that in some cases designs require a new typeface that better
reflects the times, but that is not always the case. Typefaces such
as Bodoni or Garamond have certainly been around for a long time, but
that does not make them 'old-fashioned' or 'out-of-date.' They have
been well designed and could be considered in a way 'timeless': they
have no specific time period attached to them. Garamond is just as
usable today as it was many years ago and there is nothing wrong with
that. Now, say that you were placing text on a magazine cover that
had ultra-modern looking visuals on it? No, Garamond is not really
going to make its home on that very well--that may be a time when a
new typeface is required.

Response to The World of Pentagram 2007:

I thought that the short video about Pentagram was very interesting.
The 'timeline/map' thingy at the beginning was somewhat confusing and
hard to follow simply because it was whizzing by so fast, but it made
in my opinion an extremely interesting set of visuals that was just
cool to watch change and fly by. I also liked that Pentagram chose
not to worry about ranks and specific names and so forth, but instead
gave each individual partner equal ranking and opportunity. The one
guy said "People say what about the home office? or who is the boss?
and the answer is no and none." Their new logo representing Pentagram
cut into pieces to represent each of the people who work there was a
very interesting thing to do. If one of the pieces was missing, then
the P would not be complete. Each person in the organization is
important. I thought that was really cool.

[Emily Vukson]

I think it is interesting that May compares Pentagram with Communism
and Socialism, but I guess if you think about it, it kind of is. They
don't have a specific 'boss,' and each member gets equal say. They
probably run into some arguments along the way, of course, but I think
the system works simply because it is a small number of people. It
would probably be much harder to have their "socialist" system work if
they had, say, 100+ members. But yes, when you think about it,
Pentagram's "system" is sort of Communist.

[Daisy Chong]

The World of Pentagram was very exciting to watch. Unlike other dense
interview videos, it showed us how Pentagram came to be. The first
half told us of all the people who came and left in quite an
enthusiastic matter, and how they broadened places they were located
in. The second half shows clips of the actual organization, and as
some of the video responses said, it seems like a great vibe there.
They focus more on who their next partner will be to make profits, not
really concentrating on who's in what position. I think this makes for
a great atmosphere for all of the famous designers there, and gives
everyone an equal chance to design whatever they wish. I read through
the video description later and I actually recognized quite a few
graphic designers on the list. As May stated, I think this is quite a
successful worldwide organization that doesn't follow the usual
corporate hierarchy that America has been so used to seeing.

As for The New New Typography documents, basically the bottom line I
got out of it was 'don't mix old typography with new graphics',
therefore, they created new typography for the new era. At first, I
was quite taken aback by what was to me, unclean, messy lines.
However, from their point of view, it sort of works, as does it fits
the title 'The New New Typography'. Also, the ending statement gives
us a question to think about: 'is there a difference between being new
and being modern?' They're very similar, but being modern usually
involves being new and popular in the respected community to what is
being innovated, while being new is just a non specific invention.

[Victoriya Baskin]

I greatly agree with May. The Vier5's typography examples this article
show work well for the things they are used on; posters. The typefaces
definitely grabbed my attention with their broken shapes and jagged
computerized lines. They are really different and interesting to look
at. But i feel they must be well applied. It would be impossible to
typeset a book or magazine in these types. They are best used for
small amounts of copy, and give a bold look not necessarily for
readability. I also do not agree with the idea of moving on to more
modern typefaces from older typefaces because they are no longer
relevant. There are so many typefaces that truly are timeless, such as
Futura, and Garamond. They quite honestly do not age, and are paired
well with other faces. Their beauty is in there simplicity and wide
versatility. I feel that there should be a balance between
contemporary and older typefaces.

The pentagram video was a nice way of explaining the origins and
history of the company. I liked the visual diagrams, even though they
were really hard to follow when you are not familiar with all the
names. I appreciate that fact that all twenty designers are considered
a whole. They are what makes up pentagram. They are like a system that
functions as a whole to produce a wide variety of things.

[Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse]

Watching the World of Pentagram was very inspiring. Their working as a
team with no head boss is something new to me. I've always thought
that in a company or any kind of business there'll always be the boss.
But Pentagram's method of purely working together as a team sounds
nice and is definitely more chill. The music, stills of Pentagram
partners in the video as well as their work was encouraging. It
definitely drew me in and want me to become part of it, who wouldn't?
But that's another story.

Although I like Vier5's idea of combining the organic and the digital,
I disagree that new designs don't necessarily need new typefaces.
Using new typefaces doesn't necessarily define the piece as being new.
Being 'new' has more to do with the design of the piece as a whole.
Classic typefaces like Futura, Helvetica or Garamond will never die
out, they are timeless. When something is defined as 'new,' such as
the types designed by Vier5, it have its time and eventually becomes
'old.' Nonetheless, I think Vier5's approach is definitely
interesting. But like May Meyers said, they will never be used in
books where text is the only main focus. They will only be limited to
certain design pieces.

[Sarah Nock]

Response to the New Typography

I had a mixed response to the Vier5 work. Aspects of the first and
last poster appealed to me- I feel like you see a lot of this kind of
work in hipster party flyers. It's definitely not type that's meant to
be set for reading, but it seems to me that the designers are aware
that they're basically creating type that functions quite a bit as an
image. I had this issue with my "scraggly" type. It looks so much
better in a large format where the viewer is able to see the artistry
in the letters. Size affects the impact that the face has.I like that
the designers said "you cannot work with modern pictures and at the
same time use the typefaces of the last 50 years. The time for these
typefaces is gone". It just shows how they think about creating their
type to fit properly with their imagery. I don't think it's impossible
to make a good poster combining modern pictures and typefaces of the
last 50 years… but I think that more modern and unique typefaces
appeal to a younger generation. I think there are plenty of young
designers who don't necessarily think/have time to create their own
new typeface to go with their image so they use older typefaces and
just distort them in so many different ways that they probably should
have just created their own typeface.

The World of Pentagram 2007

I really enjoyed hearing about how pentagram works because it reminds
me a lot of how my office works…actually the whole attitude reminds me
a lot of a few design studios I know of. People aren't locked into
one thing and they're all just continually pushing forward together. I
liked how their logo works with the concept of each person being an
important piece of the organization…but maybe a little sentimental.

On Nov 2, 12:21 am, Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse