[week 2] Response+Discussion: Biľak+Bennekom
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Prof. Madad
Sep 8, 2009, 3:38:42 PM9/8/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
1. Post your responses to:
Experimental typography. Whatever that means. by Peter Biľak
Jop van Bennekom (talking with Andrew Blauvelt) at the Walker Art
Center
2. Response to your classmates' reactions and response.
Experimental typography. Whatever that means. by Peter Biľak
Jop van Bennekom (talking with Andrew Blauvelt) at the Walker Art
Center
2. Response to your classmates' reactions and response.
Kapono
Sep 9, 2009, 7:05:52 PM9/9/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Hey Guys,
I thought that the last discussion about the Warde and Kinross
articles was pretty interesting. I think there was a bit of a learning
curb as to how to post in the same thread and whether our posts are
even being read. Ali has set this one up so that we will all be
posting under the same thread. If we get the discussion started
earlier we can all respond to each others comments. With that said Im
wondering what everyone else thought experimental type was. I always
thought it was just trying something new. After reading the article I
realize that has very little to do with "experimentation". I like the
notion of if there's nothing at risk then it isnt experimental. So it
then causes me to think about whats at risk when designing type? And
trying to define that may make for an interesting process.
Kapono
I thought that the last discussion about the Warde and Kinross
articles was pretty interesting. I think there was a bit of a learning
curb as to how to post in the same thread and whether our posts are
even being read. Ali has set this one up so that we will all be
posting under the same thread. If we get the discussion started
earlier we can all respond to each others comments. With that said Im
wondering what everyone else thought experimental type was. I always
thought it was just trying something new. After reading the article I
realize that has very little to do with "experimentation". I like the
notion of if there's nothing at risk then it isnt experimental. So it
then causes me to think about whats at risk when designing type? And
trying to define that may make for an interesting process.
Kapono
Kapono
Sep 12, 2009, 11:22:46 AM9/12/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Hey I havent seen any discussion on the latest reading and it is due
this evening!
Kapono
this evening!
Kapono
May Meyers
Sep 12, 2009, 4:53:27 PM9/12/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Response to Jop van Bennekom at the Walker Art Center
Jop van Bennekom’s current works pay tribute to his experience as art
director of both Dutch pop culture and architectural magazines. In
this two hour interview he discusses his work as publisher of Re-
Magazine, Butt “fagazine” and my personal favorite, the sophisticated
publication Fantastic Man. Bennekom’s premier issue of the latter
features a chic yet organic bi-color cover with a photo of a genuinely
smiling Rupert Everett (a refreshing diversion from the typical overly-
posed male models who in their attempts to look intense or sexy often
end up looking angry or constipated). While Fantastic Man is about
fashion, it’s a far cry from the traditional men’s fashion magazine.
Jop refers to it as a “personal style magazine” and stresses his focus
on character rather than youth in the people it portrays. I really
respect this in an industry where youth and beauty reign the pages of
politically safer men’s magazines like Details who are too busy
finding the perfect tie in their closet to actually come out of it.
Fantastic Man is admittedly editorial, devoting entire spread to
beautifully designed text. It visually reflects Bennekom’s inspiration
from the late 1970’s and early 1980’s issues of GQ, while retaining a
modernized edge.
While the full spectrum of Bennekom’s work was intriguing, I would
consider Fantastic Man his greatest success because it found a
balance. Re-Magazine perhaps had a broader appeal being the most
mainstream but lacked Fantastic Man’s character. Despite my respect
for it, Butt was too overtly sexual to appeal to me, being a straight
girl who just googled Bennekom and saw more blush-worthy (albeit well-
photographed) penis imagery than she could handle. Fantastic Man
struck the perfect balance; it isn’t untrue to Bennekom’s character.
It includes homosexuality, but doesn’t make it the primary focus. The
design was unique yet functional and the photography was an intriguing
mix of raw and delicate, ground-breaking but unoffensive. The
typography in Fantastic Man was very inspiring as well. This is
actually a magazine that I would buy.
Response to Experimental Typography. Whatever That Means.
The content of Peter Bi’lak’s Experimental Typography is pretty much
summed up in its title. The author explores various definitions of the
word “experiment” as applied to both science and typography,
concluding that in fact “…there is no definitive explanation of what
constitutes an experiment in typography.” Experimentation is
constantly being redefined. Initially it could constitute something
that hadn’t been done previously, but over time it becomes nearly
impossible to achieve novelty in type; claiming to have created
something new could indicate historical ignorance, as all creations
are really just revised, recycled, borrowed or stolen, however you
want to put it.
I agreed with Bi’lak’s idea that the word experiment can often be a
cop out, implying that the designer takes less or no responsibility
for the outcome. I believe that the individual design process could be
considered somewhat experimental in a private way, but the finished
product has no place hiding behind the word experiment. In typography
it would be pretentious to assume we are pioneers of some novelty.
Nearly every design is bound to evoke its predecessors. If say, I
eliminate the capital letters from my name in an effort to be unique,
someone out there might find it unique, but most people would think I
was trying to imitate e.e. cummings or worse, that I’m simply too lazy
to hit the shift key. An artistic decision, however well intentioned,
can come with preconceived connotations if it isn’t well thought out.
I think that the closest we can come to a typographic experiment is to
break the rules in our own way, only after having fully learned and
understood them. This was something that I thought Jop van Bennekom
achieved beautifully in much of his typography. He knowingly broke the
rules of traditional type in a way that was functional and
aesthetically appealing as well as extremely individual.
Jop van Bennekom’s current works pay tribute to his experience as art
director of both Dutch pop culture and architectural magazines. In
this two hour interview he discusses his work as publisher of Re-
Magazine, Butt “fagazine” and my personal favorite, the sophisticated
publication Fantastic Man. Bennekom’s premier issue of the latter
features a chic yet organic bi-color cover with a photo of a genuinely
smiling Rupert Everett (a refreshing diversion from the typical overly-
posed male models who in their attempts to look intense or sexy often
end up looking angry or constipated). While Fantastic Man is about
fashion, it’s a far cry from the traditional men’s fashion magazine.
Jop refers to it as a “personal style magazine” and stresses his focus
on character rather than youth in the people it portrays. I really
respect this in an industry where youth and beauty reign the pages of
politically safer men’s magazines like Details who are too busy
finding the perfect tie in their closet to actually come out of it.
Fantastic Man is admittedly editorial, devoting entire spread to
beautifully designed text. It visually reflects Bennekom’s inspiration
from the late 1970’s and early 1980’s issues of GQ, while retaining a
modernized edge.
While the full spectrum of Bennekom’s work was intriguing, I would
consider Fantastic Man his greatest success because it found a
balance. Re-Magazine perhaps had a broader appeal being the most
mainstream but lacked Fantastic Man’s character. Despite my respect
for it, Butt was too overtly sexual to appeal to me, being a straight
girl who just googled Bennekom and saw more blush-worthy (albeit well-
photographed) penis imagery than she could handle. Fantastic Man
struck the perfect balance; it isn’t untrue to Bennekom’s character.
It includes homosexuality, but doesn’t make it the primary focus. The
design was unique yet functional and the photography was an intriguing
mix of raw and delicate, ground-breaking but unoffensive. The
typography in Fantastic Man was very inspiring as well. This is
actually a magazine that I would buy.
Response to Experimental Typography. Whatever That Means.
The content of Peter Bi’lak’s Experimental Typography is pretty much
summed up in its title. The author explores various definitions of the
word “experiment” as applied to both science and typography,
concluding that in fact “…there is no definitive explanation of what
constitutes an experiment in typography.” Experimentation is
constantly being redefined. Initially it could constitute something
that hadn’t been done previously, but over time it becomes nearly
impossible to achieve novelty in type; claiming to have created
something new could indicate historical ignorance, as all creations
are really just revised, recycled, borrowed or stolen, however you
want to put it.
I agreed with Bi’lak’s idea that the word experiment can often be a
cop out, implying that the designer takes less or no responsibility
for the outcome. I believe that the individual design process could be
considered somewhat experimental in a private way, but the finished
product has no place hiding behind the word experiment. In typography
it would be pretentious to assume we are pioneers of some novelty.
Nearly every design is bound to evoke its predecessors. If say, I
eliminate the capital letters from my name in an effort to be unique,
someone out there might find it unique, but most people would think I
was trying to imitate e.e. cummings or worse, that I’m simply too lazy
to hit the shift key. An artistic decision, however well intentioned,
can come with preconceived connotations if it isn’t well thought out.
I think that the closest we can come to a typographic experiment is to
break the rules in our own way, only after having fully learned and
understood them. This was something that I thought Jop van Bennekom
achieved beautifully in much of his typography. He knowingly broke the
rules of traditional type in a way that was functional and
aesthetically appealing as well as extremely individual.
Emily Vukson
Sep 12, 2009, 6:53:11 PM9/12/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Hi everyone!
Response to Video:
Jop van Bennekom talked about his role as designer, editor, and
publisher for the magazines RE-, Butt, and Fantastic Man, all of which
are geared towards the gay crowd. Bennekom at some points discussed
how the design of the magazines, including the colors of the pages,
the photography, and the design of the titles have an effect on how
the spreads are viewed. For example, Butt magazine utilizes pink
pages with black and white images, contrasted with very clean and
ordered typography. The interviewer in the video describes the titles
as "blunt and effective" because they were very bold, yet simple. The
sans-serif typeface used is bold and clean with a lot of margin space,
or 'breathing room.' The body text is separated into blocky columns
fenced in by rules, although the text in the columns is rag-right
instead of justified. This gives the magazine pages a clean feel, in
contrast to the somewhat 'dirty' photography often juxtaposed. I
think the the clean typography is very effective, although I would
rather see the columns set in a justified alignment as opposed to rag-
right. I think that the page would feel more balanced that way. I
also like the bold, yet simple titles because even though they are
often times very lengthy, they look nice enough that you want to read
what they have to say.
Response to Reading:
According to Peter Bil'ak, there really is no such thing as
'experimental' typography, or at least it cannot necessarily be
defined. 'Experimental' can mean a lot of different things when
applied to typography, from new ways of doing things, the actual
process of designing, or even an excuse for not taking responsibility
for a risk (Bil'ak). Typography also cannot be defined or dissected
in a scientific sense of experiment because it has no real measurable
outcome. Design does not work the same as testing, say, chemical
reactions in a laboratory. On the other hand, experimentation could
also be a departure from the normal conventions or the expected.
However, Bil'ak also questions what is a departure from the
conventional: for instance, the alphabet is rather conventional--you
cannot just change the alphabet or else it is not really typography
anymore. Bil'ak also questions 'risk' in typography: what exactly is
being risked and for what cause? I think that typography can have
risks. Trying out a new way of setting body type or a crazy way of
placing a title may be called 'experimentation,' but what is being
risked is the aesthetics of the page and its readability. Placing
body text all over a page with no rhyme or reason can be an
'experiment,' but it may not look very nice and it may be very
difficult to read, possibly keeping people from reading it in the
first place.
~Emily Vukson
Response to Video:
Jop van Bennekom talked about his role as designer, editor, and
publisher for the magazines RE-, Butt, and Fantastic Man, all of which
are geared towards the gay crowd. Bennekom at some points discussed
how the design of the magazines, including the colors of the pages,
the photography, and the design of the titles have an effect on how
the spreads are viewed. For example, Butt magazine utilizes pink
pages with black and white images, contrasted with very clean and
ordered typography. The interviewer in the video describes the titles
as "blunt and effective" because they were very bold, yet simple. The
sans-serif typeface used is bold and clean with a lot of margin space,
or 'breathing room.' The body text is separated into blocky columns
fenced in by rules, although the text in the columns is rag-right
instead of justified. This gives the magazine pages a clean feel, in
contrast to the somewhat 'dirty' photography often juxtaposed. I
think the the clean typography is very effective, although I would
rather see the columns set in a justified alignment as opposed to rag-
right. I think that the page would feel more balanced that way. I
also like the bold, yet simple titles because even though they are
often times very lengthy, they look nice enough that you want to read
what they have to say.
Response to Reading:
According to Peter Bil'ak, there really is no such thing as
'experimental' typography, or at least it cannot necessarily be
defined. 'Experimental' can mean a lot of different things when
applied to typography, from new ways of doing things, the actual
process of designing, or even an excuse for not taking responsibility
for a risk (Bil'ak). Typography also cannot be defined or dissected
in a scientific sense of experiment because it has no real measurable
outcome. Design does not work the same as testing, say, chemical
reactions in a laboratory. On the other hand, experimentation could
also be a departure from the normal conventions or the expected.
However, Bil'ak also questions what is a departure from the
conventional: for instance, the alphabet is rather conventional--you
cannot just change the alphabet or else it is not really typography
anymore. Bil'ak also questions 'risk' in typography: what exactly is
being risked and for what cause? I think that typography can have
risks. Trying out a new way of setting body type or a crazy way of
placing a title may be called 'experimentation,' but what is being
risked is the aesthetics of the page and its readability. Placing
body text all over a page with no rhyme or reason can be an
'experiment,' but it may not look very nice and it may be very
difficult to read, possibly keeping people from reading it in the
first place.
~Emily Vukson
Emily Vukson
Sep 12, 2009, 7:03:03 PM9/12/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
I kind of agree that Fantastic Man was much more beautifully put
together, if you can call it that. It had a nice balance of text with
photography, even for a magazine. I find that a lot of magazines
(save for National Geographic or the like) are much more photography
oriented and have poorly designed text. Fantastic Man had a much
better balance.
And yes, I had to laugh when I read that Bi'lak wrote that
"experimental" may be used as an excuse for not taking responsibility
for a potentially botched job. How many times have we heard that
excuse during crits in the past? I also agree with you that you can
only really experiment with something after you learn the general
"rules" of the trade: how to properly set text for maximum readability
and such. Only after you learn the rules can you break them.
~Emily Vukson
together, if you can call it that. It had a nice balance of text with
photography, even for a magazine. I find that a lot of magazines
(save for National Geographic or the like) are much more photography
oriented and have poorly designed text. Fantastic Man had a much
better balance.
And yes, I had to laugh when I read that Bi'lak wrote that
"experimental" may be used as an excuse for not taking responsibility
for a potentially botched job. How many times have we heard that
excuse during crits in the past? I also agree with you that you can
only really experiment with something after you learn the general
"rules" of the trade: how to properly set text for maximum readability
and such. Only after you learn the rules can you break them.
~Emily Vukson
Olivia Gulin
Sep 13, 2009, 8:52:46 PM9/13/09
to madad...@googlegroups.com
Bil'aks essay attempts to outline possible definitions and exmamples of what we may deem "experimental typography." But what does experimental mean? He outlines its definition in a scientific sense of a process seeking to expand knowledge. However, in design, the word "experimental" carries a less direct meaning. Any design (or good design, at least) comes at the end of a process.
Some suggest that "experimental" mean doing something that has not been done before, while others suggest that it is a sort of process to reach an unpredicted end.
It's too bad that the word is used as cop-out description of bad design. On the other hand, I think sometimes the nature of experimentation is not always a successful end result. Particularly if we take the second definition of experimentation, perhaps the value of an experiment is not in its end result but in what thoughts went into getting it there. Sometimes, botched experiments just need to be rethought and taken in different directions in order to produce succesful results.
To me, making an unsuccessful design is the only thing really at risk when experimenting with it. Which is not much, for me anyway... you can always make another one.
Jop van Bennekom's discussion was particularly inspirational. Aside from the impressive feat of designing, directing, writing, etc. three different magazines, and the beautiful job he has done in designing them, his approach to creating the magazines is really exciting. I love idea of taking a commercial form such as a magazine and using it as an arena for personal expression. Maybe he is only capable of doing it at such a wide scale due to his position as the head of each of his magazines, or because he is coming from a tradition of independently produced zines. In any case, that he is capable of taking even men's fashion and making a magazine that is uniquely his in character an attidute is really amazing.
I guess I have to agree that design-wise, I have to agree that Fantastic Man is the most appealing to me. Conceptually though, I think Re- is more intriguing. Maybe I just have little interest in fashion, but a magazine about individuals and the everyday seems to come from a far more personal and unique place than Fantastic Man might.
- OG
http://www.oliviagulin.com
Sarah Nock
Sep 13, 2009, 10:27:09 PM9/13/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Experimental typography. Whatever that means. by Peter Biľak:
One thing I thought was interesting was the way Bil'ak explored
"originality" or the lackthereof in most "experimental" typography. He
explains that the issue with claiming that you have created a novelty
piece of work is that creating something new is very difficult, and
information is shared and travels so quickly in this digital age that
if you proclaim novelty you will probably be proven wrong and people
will think you're ignorant. As young designers I think we all need to
be aware of this pitfall.
The Experiment and Typography Exhibition sounds like it would be a
lot of fun to be a part of. It seems a lot like school because their
projects document the development of the designers' ideas, but they
stop short of a "final project". Although they're working to create
innovative type solutions their work is not production-oriented
design. If their ideas were ever assimilated into commercial
applications, it could be classified and referenced so it would no
longer be "experimental". I feel like it's a refreshing point of view
because so many times people (like myself) will just view typography
as a means to an end so it's good that there are still people who are
working to develop type outside of commercial applications.
I feel like we all have a little bit of a basic understanding of
legibility in typography. It would, however, be interesting to see how
far Huot Marchand could degenerate a letterform for legibility's sake.
Jop van Bennekom
Jop van Bennekom talked about his role as designer, editor, and
the magazine geared towards old men-Fantastic man. I like that it's
more of a personal style magazine and that it's clean/basic so a lot
of the design depends on layouts. I liked Butt for its grit. I also
like the restricted color palattes.
Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse
Sep 13, 2009, 11:55:32 PM9/13/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Bil'ak and Bennekom
I have never really thought about what 'experimental typography' would
have really meant until I read Bil'ak's article. From first glance, I
thought it would have just meant to do something no one has ever done
before. However, after reading this, Bil'ak has opened my eyes to what
it means really, and that experimental typography fundamentally does
not exist, that the only experimenting part of it is the process, and
never the outcome. Even so, there might have been some exceptions,
like the examples given by Bil'ak of the French artist Thomas Huot-
Marchand and Belgian designer Brecht Cuppens, where the results of
their 'experimentation' are I guess, more extreme than those defined,
conventional ones.
I definitely agree with Bennekom that these days, mens magazine,
better yet, MOST magazines are all geared towards youth, with models
and celebrities on their covers and contents, with largely fashion
photography and less 'educational' subjects. I like that Bennekom took
a different approach and focus on putting accomplished people and
people from everyday life on the covers of his magazines. I also am
attracted to the fact that he tries to make his magazine text-based,
where he said 'if you dont read, there's not very much to get,' which
magazines these days do the opposite - image driven with way too many
ads and fashion. Althought RE- magazine is my favorite because each
issue focuses on one person's life, which is unheard of in magazine. I
like all RE-, BUTT, and Fantastic Men in that each magazine focuses on
different parts of life and yet incorporates all. One about ordinary
people and everyday life, one of gay men - essentially the
liberalization of homosexuality, of cultural norm, and one that keeps
us updated of the artist world - interview with well-known designers
and artists such as Marc Jacobs and Helmut Lang, these informs us of
roughly what is going on around us.
Noodee
I have never really thought about what 'experimental typography' would
have really meant until I read Bil'ak's article. From first glance, I
thought it would have just meant to do something no one has ever done
before. However, after reading this, Bil'ak has opened my eyes to what
it means really, and that experimental typography fundamentally does
not exist, that the only experimenting part of it is the process, and
never the outcome. Even so, there might have been some exceptions,
like the examples given by Bil'ak of the French artist Thomas Huot-
Marchand and Belgian designer Brecht Cuppens, where the results of
their 'experimentation' are I guess, more extreme than those defined,
conventional ones.
I definitely agree with Bennekom that these days, mens magazine,
better yet, MOST magazines are all geared towards youth, with models
and celebrities on their covers and contents, with largely fashion
photography and less 'educational' subjects. I like that Bennekom took
a different approach and focus on putting accomplished people and
people from everyday life on the covers of his magazines. I also am
attracted to the fact that he tries to make his magazine text-based,
where he said 'if you dont read, there's not very much to get,' which
magazines these days do the opposite - image driven with way too many
ads and fashion. Althought RE- magazine is my favorite because each
issue focuses on one person's life, which is unheard of in magazine. I
like all RE-, BUTT, and Fantastic Men in that each magazine focuses on
different parts of life and yet incorporates all. One about ordinary
people and everyday life, one of gay men - essentially the
liberalization of homosexuality, of cultural norm, and one that keeps
us updated of the artist world - interview with well-known designers
and artists such as Marc Jacobs and Helmut Lang, these informs us of
roughly what is going on around us.
Noodee
Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse
Sep 14, 2009, 12:16:57 AM9/14/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
Yes, I definitely agree that conceptually, RE is most intriguing in
that it almost turns a magazine into a book, each issue focusing on a
person's life, and most interestingly, ordinary people and not
celebrities. Seldom do we want to know the life of someone who is not
a 'someone.' The concept definitely makes RE one of kind, especially
when its put against all other magazines on newsstands.
that it almost turns a magazine into a book, each issue focusing on a
person's life, and most interestingly, ordinary people and not
celebrities. Seldom do we want to know the life of someone who is not
a 'someone.' The concept definitely makes RE one of kind, especially
when its put against all other magazines on newsstands.
Kapono
Sep 14, 2009, 2:09:16 AM9/14/09
to Prof. Madad / Type Design III
I agree with the fact that once something is a final product it is no
longer experimental. And I also liked what most of you pulled about
hiding behind the word experimental. For one it is so hard to create
completely original content. Even in the interview with Jop some guy
pulled a possible reference that he could have been following. It
becomes harder and harder to come up with new shit. The process on the
other hand might be something you could own and actually call
experimental. I like what Sarah pulled from the article which is the
idea of somewhat messing with the conventional alphabet and if it
could be more "legible".
kapono
On Sep 14, 12:16 am, Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse
longer experimental. And I also liked what most of you pulled about
hiding behind the word experimental. For one it is so hard to create
completely original content. Even in the interview with Jop some guy
pulled a possible reference that he could have been following. It
becomes harder and harder to come up with new shit. The process on the
other hand might be something you could own and actually call
experimental. I like what Sarah pulled from the article which is the
idea of somewhat messing with the conventional alphabet and if it
could be more "legible".
kapono
On Sep 14, 12:16 am, Patamavadee Nguiakaramahawongse
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