Flash 2004 ... undo function is screwed up
todd rivers
Is there any one at Macromedia that can tell me how to change the Flash 2004
undo functionality back to the way it was in Flash MX? The undo is
seriously screwed up. In the old Flash MX, one could edit a symbol on the
stage (using "edit in place"); and, then return to the main stage to make
changes there; and, then return once again to the previously edited symbol
and press undo to undo changes just in the symbol... The new Flash 2004
steps back through every undo made in a linear fashion. Who's brainiac idea
was this? Now it takes even longer to edit my work. As is, the new Flash
2004 product is very disappointing.
Todd
Jeckyl
Undo/redo is for the whole document (ie movie). Guess you'll have to change
the way you work to suit the way undo/redo is now.
J-Dogg
"Jeckyl" <artf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bmi57n$kc$1...@forums.macromedia.com...
Stan Vassilev (mmlabs)
Per symbol undo was way way more productive and fast to work with.
They have no good reason to do what they did. They added history? Ok, then
just show history for the current symbol...
I can't understand those guys sometimes :)
urami_
> They have no good reason to do what they did. They added history? Ok, then
> just show history for the current symbol...
>
> I can't understand those guys sometimes :)
ditto , stupid indeed ...
now when you work on timeline and edit instances , while going back to undo timeline
will as well reverse back your instances . before it had way more brain than now ....
Regards
urami_*
<lsym>
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
</lsym>
J-Dogg
doesn't make an OS. I'll have to take that back. Who's making decisions over
there, anyway?
"urami_" <noS...@flashfugitive.com> wrote in message
news:3F8CBF7D...@flashfugitive.com...
Peter Blumenthal
for one loved the context sensitive undo. Haven't even *tried* MX2004 yet,
and the more I hear about it the less inclined i am to try it.
}`星
todd rivers
the past five years???... If you had, then you would not be making such a
rediculous statement. You must be part of Macromedia's new development
team.
"Jeckyl" <artf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bmi57n$kc$1...@forums.macromedia.com...
Jeckyl
for
> the past five years???... If you had, then you would not be making such a
> rediculous statement.
> > Undo/redo is for the whole document (ie movie). Guess you'll have to
> > change the way you work to suit the way undo/redo is now.
There is nothing at all ridiculous (or event rediclous) in my statement ..
its is just the way things are.
I'm just observing from a wider point of view .. undo/redo in every other
application I've seen (for windows at least) is document wide (linear).
That is probably part of why MM has changed to the more
standard/conventional way of doing undo/redo.
You may not like it, and it may not be a change for the better, but MX 2004
is more like other applications now wrt undo/redo and you WILL have to get
used to it working that way unless MM do something unusual and make an
update that 'fixes' these changes.
You'll note that I never said it was better, nor that I liked it that way.
> You must be part of Macromedia's new development team.
You have no idea how funny that is :):)
Stan Vassilev (mmlabs)
undo document window selection? Or undo linearly all documents you've opened
like single document?
Well that's the concept of flash. you have many separate timelines in one
document and they are standalone object. Selecting and opening symbol for
editing doesn't change the document but it's not step in the history.. THIS
is riduculous.
I expect hitting CTRL+Z in the next Flash to move my mouse to the previous
position or something like that.
ELECTRON
undo MUST be content-sensitive!!!!!!!!!
because flash document structure is very extraordinal, and not exact like
photoshop's or Corel's or any another drawin' app's structure...
so undo CANNOT be only linear,
but, in some cases it's useful to use linear undo history for all document,
so if you have non-linear history structure, it is very simple to track
linear undo..., and shoul be very useful to have separate shortcut's for
linear and non linear undo history back..., and hierarchical history panel
too... separate for stage/code/timeline/documentglobal.....
... and not only in flash...! in Photoshop for example that feature should
be great too, to have for example possibility to use separate history for
each layer, with possibility to use global linear history too ........
SpydermanLA
This change alone may be enough to make me forego the switch to MX 2004. Hope somebody at Macromedia is listening...
Jeckyl
question :):)
Both methods of working are quite valid .. the problem is more that if
you've gotten used to working with separate undo-per-timeline in previous
versions of Flash, your workflow and way of thinking is geared toward the
old undo/redo
For those just starting out, the new undo/redo will seem perfectly obvious
and they probably won't think its screwed up at all (until they read about
how nice it is with separate undo/redo).
"SpydermanLA" <webfor...@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:bp9ipl$oq9$1...@forums.macromedia.com...
SpydermanLA
Most importantly, if you're working with multiple movie clips, shouldn't you be able to undo changes to one clip without also sacrificing all the changes you may have made in other place in the process? The new, linear functionality clumps together all movie clips and the main timeline for Undo, while in all other aspects of the program they are regarded as totally separate... aside from a bad Udno model, it just isn't consistent with the other functions of the program.
Anyway, I've just finished uninstalling the trial version of MX2004 and reinstalling MX... five minutes was enough to convince me that I have no desire to upgrade with the Undo functionality as it currently stands. What a waste of an afternoon...
John Dowdell
> Hope somebody at Macromedia is listening...
If you missed this, then there may be more info in the Emerging Issues
technote which can be helpful too:
http://www.macromedia.com/go/18889
> Changes to Undo - issue update: 10/3/03
>
> In previous versions of Flash, undo was object-specific, with a separate set of undo steps for different interface areas, such as the stage, movie clips and library. In Flash MX 2004, the undo stack is now document-specific. This may change workflow for designers used to the previous behavior.
>
> Macromedia Flash MX 2004 contains a new History panel. The document-specific undo stack allows a complete list of all user actions to be recorded in the History panel sequentially. The new History panel can be used to Undo, and enables some powerful new abilities such as custom commands.
As I've described elsewhere, there's always a hard choice between doing
something the same way it always was because some are used to it, or
doing it a better way that will serve a much larger number of people
much better... either way is subject to criticism.
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/jd_forum/jd032.html
jd
--
John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco CA
Search technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
Soapbox column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/
Daily technical diary: http://www.macromedia.com/go/blog_jd
Offlist mail is trapped by spam-filters... best here, thanks!
J-Dogg
Flash isn't like other programs. There is a reason Macromedia owns this
space: they developed the tools in a completely different way than
traditional software, allowing us to work in simultaneous streams and
directions at the same time, quite unique, probably even in the OOP area,
and it gave the program a methodological advantage over other programs. Each
object has its own timeline. The undo functionality in Flash was a Godsend
for developers who realized that the change they made to the script in a
movieclip within a movie clip half an hour ago is causing a problem -- and
we could just go into that particular object, hit undo, and everything was
happy. Not so anymore.
Since Flash counts every action as a step, such as selecting or deselecting
an object, even setting the undo levels at 100 steps only gives you a minute
or two of undo time. So, for those of us who have been using Flash
forever -- 1995 FutureSplash Animator and SmartSketch, for me -- this is one
giant step towards a Microsoft FrontPage environment.
Give us back our Object Oriented Undos! Even previous versions of Flash let
developers switch between advanced and basic, old and new. Why did no one at
Macromedia ask developers about this?
"Jeckyl" <artf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bp9ka1$t6v$1...@forums.macromedia.com...
Peter Blumenthal
>
> As I've described elsewhere, there's always a hard choice between doing
> something the same way it always was because some are used to it, or
> doing it a better way that will serve a much larger number of people
> much better...
John do you actually use Flash as a development tool? I'm not trying to be
rude, I really would like to know.
I just cannot understand how anyone with experiance of Flash could think
that a linear undo is preferable to a context sensitive one within an OO
environment. Please explain to me WHY this is a "better way that will serve
a much larger number of people much better... ". I could as easily (and
glibly) state "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
regards,
}`星ete.
Stan Vassilev (mmlabs)
The 'emerging issue' is not a solution to the problem, John. It merely
describes it in a very speculative way.
WHAT is better in the new 'linear' undo? Anything better at all? History is
no reason to make it linear, because you can as well just show history for
the symbol edited at the moment - where is the damn problem.
It might confuse a total newbie at first, but would be totally more useful
if we had context history, I believe all professionals are with me.
+ how come the MX2004 patch fixed almost nothing of what I reported directly
to Macromedia and they CONFIRMED to be REPRODUCIBLE BUGS, including weird UI
behaviour in the IDE, pixel font generation issues, bitmap issues and much
more...
Anyway, at least professionals have their previous versions to work with
(MX, 5).
ValerieTheTechie
-Valerie
>As I've described elsewhere, there's always a hard choice between doing
>something the same way it always was because some are used to it, or
>doing it a better way ->>>>> that will serve a much larger number of people
SpydermanLA
I took the time to browse your Forum posting on growth and burritos. Citing your own example, where is the choice here??? We've been forced to endure the big sloppy one, with no option to choose the slicker shrimp option.
If you knew (and you'd have to be a blind deaf mute not to) that this was going to be such a contentious issue, why not give user the ability to set the Undo behaviour in the Preference section?
The only excuse for that I can think of is plain old laziness on the part of the development team. I just hope somebody up top realises that all the money you saved by not investing the effort to continue a functional, sophisticated Undo model is going to be lost be people like me who refuse to upgrade. I hope they also realise all the negative feeling this has generated... look at any of the other Flash boards and you will see they are all afire with people that HATE -- not just dislike, but absolutely abhor -- this horrible, shortsighted change.
Everyone on this thread has asked for concrete examples of how this new functionality is in any way better than the old... the fact that no one at MM has been able to provide a even a single one makes me think that perhaps generic statements about the "new history panel" are just meant to try to keep people quiet... a cover-up for a mistake you're unwilling to admit.
John Dowdell
> History is no reason to make it linear
Actually, the capture-able JavaScript API is indeed compelling reason,
because an automation command is not limited to a single selection set.
That's the "why"... if you want them to consider work on dual history
stacks, then drop the dev team a note, particularly if you show them
which existing work habits were adversely affected, thanks.
> how come the MX2004 patch fixed almost nothing of what I reported
One person's "bug" is another person's "not a bug"... I don't get into
those arguments myself. If there's something you want changed, then the
first essential step is for the dev team to know about it, but that does
not automatically be able to change it that way.
Stan Vassilev (mmlabs)
> > History is no reason to make it linear
>
> Actually, the capture-able JavaScript API is indeed compelling reason,
> because an automation command is not limited to a single selection set.
You mean that to assist a lazy coder who would capture everything instead of
adding the necessary commands you cripled the quite common undo
functionality?
Well great...
Of course I know you can tell this is the reason, but it's kinda not a
reason enough (to criple common feature to assist in a rarely used feature -
you don't see us producing more extensions rather than flash content, do
you).
> That's the "why"... if you want them to consider work on dual history
> stacks, then drop the dev team a note, particularly if you show them
> which existing work habits were adversely affected, thanks.
They don't listen a lot unless 100% of the communicy cries in one voice
about an issue (which is tested in practise many times, so don't say
otherwise).
> > how come the MX2004 patch fixed almost nothing of what I reported
>
> One person's "bug" is another person's "not a bug"... I don't get into
> those arguments myself. If there's something you want changed, then the
> first essential step is for the dev team to know about it, but that does
> not automatically be able to change it that way.
>
I just told you the dev team told me over the phone that the issues I
outlined are KNOWN REPRODUCIBLE BUGS.
And they did NOT fix them..
So what the heck are you talking about :)?
+ I'm talking for quite obvious bugs like dissapearing panel separators,
wrong output of pixel fonts (reproducible on ANY system), refresh bugs in
the test movie splitter etc.
SpydermanLA
I'd love to speak with the dev team about it... but how? Emails sent in that direction have thusfar been completely ignored, and being overseas I'm not going to spend a fortune on international calls.
John Dowdell
> I'd love to speak with the dev team about it... but how? Emails sent in that direction have thusfar been completely ignored, and being overseas I'm not going to spend a fortune on international calls.
You're right, people can't engage in conversation on demand in such a
many-to-few situation... getting a one-on-one response back from a key
engineer is tough.
Dropping a note to the wishlist is a way to say what effect a change has
had on you, but it's rare that that will start a personal conversation,
true.
SpydermanLA
I can only say I am nothing but disappointed. I had held Macromedia in high regard as a company until this experience. Does Macromedia not care that they have seriously disrupted the workflow of virtually every experienced designer out there, without giving us any choice in the matter? Maybe they'll start caring when designers such as myself and everone else on this thread refuse to upgrade because they haven't listened to their users. When did Macromedia adopt the Microsoft mentality?
urami_
> So in other words, it's about as useful as throwing a penny in my local fountain...
you mean the penny does not work ? ..... great , maybe you tell me yet that there is
no Santa either ? :)
Jeckyl
1) The beta testers not find the problem and so MM had no idea that what
they were doing would cause problems for users
2) They found the problem and reported it, but MM ignored or dismissed their
concerns and implement it anyway
3) The single undo/redo stack was added too late in the beta process to be
found in time for beta testers to report it
Although I was a beta tester, I know I didn't use it enough in a full
development situation to have noticed it .. and I don't recall if/when it
was part of the matador/toreador betas.
But surely, with what I assume was a fairly large group of beta testers
SOMEONE must have noticed this and reported it to Macromedia before MX 2004
was released.
Do any of the other beta testers know if they found this change in undo
behaviour before release and reported it ??????
Webminister
I drempt that a new Flash version came out and they destroid the sweet undo method they had !
Can you believ it! man Im glad that will never happen!
Oh and then the dream showed that we all had to suffer with a MS IE meltdown heheh
ME
Kit Kwan
Kit Kwan
Macromedia Flash
Pcmaan
1. is it true you are addressing this thread issue (and there are sooo many about this issue around the web) with this single line ???
>>>Actually, the capture-able JavaScript API is indeed compelling reason,because an automation command is not limited to a single selection set.
Can't you give us some more. You look like a robot designed to defend the product.
Those commands: has anyone at MM tried that or even succeeded at creating a usefull command ?
I will tell you this: try creating a simple command, to do it right it will take you longer than to apply the actions manually. I did try it, and i still can't manage to create a command that will work on other instances.
Can you give me a good example of a usefull command ? (and the steps to create it). Creating those commands would be impossible - you are telling us - with context specific undo stack. So PLEASE: give us an example of a multi context command. I think creating a command after applying the actions is a wrong approach. What if you would record a command (see MS Macros) using a linear action stack for a short time, then a context sensitive would be possible after all.
Oh and on top: if you really wanted a linear undo, why did you not include changes in the AS panel ?
Say i make some design changes on the main stage. Then i make some changes in some clip and those changes require changes in the AS panel. Now, i want to undo the changes on the MAIN STAGE. I have to undo all design changes in the clip i just changed !!!! . Then finally i get to undo the changes in the main stage. I test the movie and it's even worse than before all changes. Why ? Because the AS in the clip is not undone.
Oh and
Jeckyl:
>>
>> The new way undo works is more in line with every other application.
>>
have you ever used any other IDE ? Imagine undo swings you all over your source files.
Maybe this linear undo stack was intended to have Flash become like Photoshop, but still Macromedia wants Flash to become a development tool. Can't you see OO is more important ?
Anyway, this should have been made the user's choice.
Please guys: release an update that will allow this option in preferences.
Honestly, i don't think developers who have been using Flash for many years will want to trade context specific undo for these commands(which i think are buggy and rarely usefull).
Thanks for putting the Scale and Rotate panel back in, this proves you do care about the users, including me. Thanks for hearing me.
Now please hear all the users above and all users at www.flashkit.com and add that option.
Regards
John Dowdell
> Anyway, this should have been made the user's choice.
> Please guys: release an update that will allow this option in preferences.
From what I've heard, the architectural changes would be significant
enough to require engineering time that could be spent on another
feature... too big for an updater. (The object model and authoring UIs
have changed significantly, so it's not an easy task.)
If this is important to you, though, then make sure to actually tell the
team how highly you value it, because they can't all get to the
newsgroup each day:
http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish
SpydermanLA
And if you're telling us we're just going to have to wait until the next version... maybe what's that you should be telling the marketing department instead; because personally, there is no way on this planet I'll be purchasing MX 2004.
ValerieTheTechie
phatkow
I have been trying to re-learn the ways of the new undo - with hopes that there's something about it that will speed up my workflow or in the very least keep it flowing normally with 1 or more beneficial features. So far it has not. In fact it remains 100% discouraging.
Flash is different than P'shop and most other programs for the main reason that it's multi-linear with several individual timelines within the same document. I dont use flash like I use P'shop and others - so not sure how the same type of history/undo feature should apply - and in my real-world tests I have personally proven it does not - at least for me.
Have yet to hear someone defending it. If there's anybody out there willing to chime in with ways that this new feature has benefitted their workflow - i'm all ears.
chris georgenes
mudbubble.com
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Flash
http://www.flashfilmmaker.com
theory7
there is no excuse for this, I don't care if this is meant to bring it in line with other products, that is a very bad reason for adding this feature, this has seriously caused me problems and is slowing me down big time, for anyone who works quick and fast around lots of different movie clips this is a disaster.
Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of not upgrading, I have to upgrade in order to fullfill the requirements of a client project and take advantage of some of the new video features. New features great but don't do this to us, it seems as though over the last few years macromedia really have stopped listening to the designers and developers, i mean who on earth would have asked for this?
if you did stand up, you deserve to be shot, I really hope macromedia bite the bullit and fix this feature, I don't want to get used to it, I don't want to change my workflow, I want to get on with my work, even this is loosing me time...
arrrgghh..........
Referring URLs
http://www.theory7.com
SpydermanLA
Jeckyl
surely it would mean LESS hopping around between timelines than with the
previous way undo worked in MX (where to undeo a series of changes, you
would have to go to each timeline where you made a change and undo in each
one individually). Surely now, if you want to undo what you did, it would
be easier. Maybe I just don't understand how your workflow would
depend/rely on undoing things?
NOTE: I'm not saying the new way is better .. or that I particularly like it
.. it ceratinly is different to how it was .. I'm just not understanding how
undoes would impact on someone who has good workflow practices in place
anyway? Could you give me an example of how your workflow depends on having
separate undo's in each timeline?
Carl Fink
>Hi, it seems that most of you perceive the engineering team ignores the emails and
>forums. Well, that's not fair and not true. We DO read and listen ...
How can us developers know that? All we get is, well, John Dowdell gallantly trying to defend a terrible, terrible decision. Okay, now you've popped up to say you exist, but still no one at Macromedia has taken the radical step of officially acknowledging that EVERY SINGLE DEVELOPER POSTING, with the possible exception of Hyde's alter-ego, hates the new undo.
I know why you did it: it's enormously easier to program from your point of view.
That isn't a good enough reason. Fix it.
--
Carl Fink
Please respond only to the newsgroup.
Teory7
I have just spent another 10 hours working on current client project and again have come out the other end frustrated, in term of adjusting to it, which is what people expect, I actually found myself trying not to make mistakes ad actually trying to work without the thought of using the undo feature, as it would just make things worse, shame, shame, shame, sort it out macromedia, I vote we start campaign or petition to macromedia to bring this feature back...
John Dowdell
> SHAME ON MACROMEDIA... there is no excuse for this, I don't care....
fwiw, there were indeed good reasons for it, as you can tell from prior
conversation:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:macromedia.flash+undo&scoring=d
But on the other hand, it's dangerous to affect any single person's
existing habits in any way, which is why software usually accretes
version-to-version rather than gets more efficient:
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/jd_forum/jd032.html
If you'd like to tell the product team directly what you'd prefer, then
you can grab their eyeballs here:
Jeckyl
> exception of Hyde's alter-ego, hates the new undo.
I'm not particularly in favour of that change .. it doesn't seem to improve
things at all (although I think its more a side effect of some of the jsfl
scripting available in the ui now), but then, it doesn't seem like its worse
either .. just different. I'm just interested in understanding how it
impacts on your workflow so badly (other than it just being different). I
don't use Flash for long enough on big enough projects to know .. that's why
I'm asking.
From what I have seen, isn't the way Flash MX was the same as if MS Word had
a separate undo/redo for every paragraph of your document.. that would drive
me batty .. but I guess once I'd gotten used to it, it would drive me batty
if it DIDN'T work that way. Which sounds like the situation Flash
developers are in .. they are used to the way things used to be, so anything
different is going to cause some frustration. Especially if it doesn't
appear to have any other advantages.
Would there be any real disadvantage (say) for a new user who has come
straight to Flash MX 2004 and doesn't have to unlearn the per-timeline undo
of MX ??? Would they still be able to have good workflow with MX 2004 as it
is now?
I'm not fighting the rest of the developer community on this .. I'm just
asking question and wnating to better understand 'where you're coming from'.
Just people saying how much the change sucks doesn't explain why it sucks
:):)
Teory7
Referring URLs
http://www.theory7.com
vibration_13
..Vibration 13.
(c).RaggedMan Promotions
ollrocker
Viva la revolution
Jeckyl
business MM is going to loose from it.
Although , I still don't see how it impacts on workflow .. noone has yet
provided any scenario where the change makes their workflow worse. Only
seems to be comments that people simply don't like it being changed and
don't like having to start thinking differently. People rarely like change
unless there is an obvious improvement. Which is probably the main problem
here .. why change a feature and force people to learn new habit for what
appears to be little or no benefit? There's also been very little from MM
explaining why the new undo/redo is a change for the better .. to me it just
seems like a change for no really good reason.
I'd love to be enlightened from both sides .. then both may better
understand what the real story is.
Teory7
as an example my site www.theory7.com the main.fla has over 900 movie clips making up its structure, bear in mind there are hundreds of swfs making up the entire site. Anyway when working on this fla each movie clip has its own "independent" timeline and work is carried out inside that movie clip, if I where to then move to another movie clip and do some work on that clip and finish what I wanted to do in the second clip then realise that I have screwed something up in the first movie clip we used to be able to go back to the first movie clip and undo the changes made, now I would have to undo all the changes I made to my second movie clip even though I was happy with those changes in order to undo the changes to the first movie clip, make sense?
Ok in more lamens terms lets say you have just bought a new house with three bedrooms, you paint bedroom 1, then paint bedroom 2, then paint bedroom 3, after you finish the work you realise that when you painted bedroom 2 you forgot to put an undercoat and the paint has started peeling off, unfortunately due to the new undo system in order to repair bedroom 2 you have to first strip down the paint in bedroom 3 which you where happy with in order to get to bedroom 2?! now that is a nightmare and that is the problem we face.
The whole power of flash was that movie clips had there own independent timelines and having independant undo was an integral part of this.
The other fatal floor with the new history undo which cannot be excused and which further makes it pointless is that if you are working in a nested movie clip and you have been navigating through different timelines, when you undo instead of just navigating to that timeline and movie clip in the context that it exists in the site, you are simply taken to the movie clip on its own on the stage, if you don't know what I mean by this go open flash(any version) and open the library, then double click an item in the library, you will be taken to that item on the stage but it will be on its own, it won't have the rest of the sites content around it, his is what happens when the history undo tries to backtrack through your previous navigation around various movie clip timelines, so even if w try and learn this new way of working it has a huge funemental floor and cannot be excused.
If that doesn't help people understand I don't know what will.
Referring URLs
http://www.theory7.com
Jeckyl
So its basically that you treat each clip as an independant entity (like a
completely separate movie), rather than the movie as a whole. Like the
separate worksheets in a Excel document. Rather than like paragraphs in a
Word document. Of course, both ways are valid ways of looking at it. I'm
sure people who use Word are quite comfortable with knowing that undo is
linear .. so if they make a change to one paragraph, then go to another
paragraph, make some more changes, then want to undo that change they made
earlier, then either they correct it manually or undo the whole lot. I
don't think Microsoft gets many complaints about that .. people are just
used to thinking that way about documents. But those who use to previous
versions of Flash aren't used to thinking that way about Flash movies. For
newcomers, it may not be as big a deal ... if it worked properly. That was
Interesting comment about how the new undo works strangely with opening
timelines. That's not nice behaviour. Have you raised it as a bug/wishlist
with Macromedia???
It would be nice if MM provided an option for which way to work. Then
everyone could be happy. Actually, I don't think many people would be
UN-happy if the undo went back to the way it was before :):) Certainly not
as many as are unhappy with he undo as it is now.
g60vdub-2004
Chris
news:bv97ni$su0$1...@forums.macromedia.com:
You want reasons on impact to workflow?
As you get deeper into using Flash it becauses very clear that
'movieclips' are the primary symbol created to all things Flash.
This means you are constantly in and out of different timelines.
And you must compile the whole movie before you can truely see
how all your movieclips are working together.
So...create three animations A,B, and C...
You work on A for a while, B then C. In fact you don't even
need to give an ounce of thought as to the order in which you are
working in them ... compile and watch the results.
A looks wrong so you doubleclick it and undo the changes,
make revisions to **A only**... compile.
A looks good now but C isn't right...C only: undo, revise, compile.
A and C are good now but B isn't...B only: undo, revise, compile.
Now all are good and the whole movie is fine.
Do that with MX2004 ... you can't.
And while you 'could' get the same results if you carefully
made A,B, and C in a linear fashion. I can assure you that
you'd be pulling your hair out. And this is only one scenario.
Buttons, editing vectors and Graphic symbols are now a nightmare
as well.
Flash developers instantly saw this. How linear undo ended up
as even a suggestion for MX2004 is an insult much less getting
through the whole development pipeline.
Fire ALL the Beta Testers they are not qualified to beta this product.
Fire ALL those giving the greenlight to this.
They are equally unqualified.
See you guys next version. ..maybe...
Chris
Pcmaan
JD: months ago i asked for a usefull example of the (new) "commands" feauture. Usefull meaning using multiple timelines / selection sets.
Could you please get someone to quickly put it down ?
Maybe that would convince me to get the new version.
My second trial installation is running towards an end, don't like formatting my hd again.
Thanks a lot
Pcmaan
John Dowdell
> JD: months ago i asked for a usefull example....
Sorry, it's about 6pm on a Friday, and I've got a few more hours of work
to do... even if I had it I'm not sure of the wisdom of trying to
"persuade" someone I can't know.
The undo system is how it is. If you'd like it changed, show the team
directly.
phatkow
feature in MX04
[L=http://www.kirupaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34107]http://www
.kirupaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34107[/L
i quote specifically
"Not so much a bug as a new annoying behavior - be cautious that you no longer
have 'branching' undos for symbols. In MX your undos for symbols were seperate
and unrelated. You could make 2 symbols, edit one, then the other, then go back
to the first and undo those edits without effecting the other. With the history
panel in MX2004, all undos are together and linearly remembered. To undo the
edits of the first symbol, you would need to go through and undo the edits of
the symbol edited afterwards (with that, entering edit modes is now a command
that is capable of being undone).
Honestly, i am using both MX and MX04 - MX about 80% of the time and MX04 20%
When deep inside an MX04 project and i realize i nreed to undo the last 5 or
so edits across multiple timelines and use normal mode - it becomes a reminder
for me to simply save as MX instead and continue working in MX - just because
it's so much faster and easier to work in MX than MX04 for me. Then again my
needs and the way i use flash are different then others - but i have been using
flash since version 3 and i have embraced each version 100% up intol MX04 -
still using it about 20% of the time - and mainly because of the JSAPI features
that allow me to customize the UI to suit my own particular needs
Jeckyl
I can see the logic in both approaches, with separate undo per timeline and
linear undo. There are situations where each would be better suited.
Generally, when making a change like how undo works, someone at macromedia
must have considered
1) the advantages to the new way
2) the disadvantages from not doing it the old way
And then common sense would dictate that if the advantages outweigh the
disadvantages, then its a worthwhile change.
It certainly appears that for the MANY existing users wanting to upgrade to
MX 2004, the disadvantages of the new undo logic are significant ..
sometimes to the point of them choosing not to upgrade. Mostly this appears
due to having to unlearn old habits .. and we human beings are creatures of
habit. Even though it sounds trivial, that is still certainly a major
factor to take into account.
I would still like to know what the big advantages of the change in undo
logic were. Obviously they must have appeared significant enough for
somebody to warrant changing it. Perhaps its an unavoidable side-effect of
the changes required for JSFL .. although I'm not sure why that would be.
Guess I'm just curious as to why and how the decision to make this change
was made .. and the infamous decision to get rid of normal mode.
I think many people would feel much better about such changes if they could
be shown how it is advantageous for them. Just like the government saying
that we need to increase taxes in order to fund defence and education. If
the government simply increase taxes for no apparent reason, then that isn't
going to help them at the next election :):)
5ub5t8
back to flash mx I go, until some update is made allowing ME to choose which
undo function I want to use, rather than some fart knocker who has no clue how
I work
think I'll send a mail now
Jeckyl
:):):):) haven't heard that one before :):):):)
urami_
> :):):):) haven't heard that one before :):):):)
>
I laughed too when I read it.
Insult of the month.
I really can't figure what drives macromedia and what gives them ideas.
The interns who work on MX 2004 really went over board with "NEW" stuff.
I do agree with you on habits while working in tools, but I too have been
working like explain by 'teory7' on files containing few hundred clips and doing undo
in one was not necessarily required to go trough many other in the same time.
This is pure stupid feature and next on the reason list why MX 2004 won't be charge to my corp
card for now for sure . MX rules , most refine and best in regard to functionality tool so far
released.
Regards
urami_*
<xmas>
http://flashfugitive.com/
</xmas>
Stephen Barrante
Designer... just started using MX 2004... And I'm banging my head on my desk
right now because they messed with the UNDO. I seriously believe that was the
most efficient way to approach undo. Because of all the timelines in a movie...
the mass amount of nested symbols... and the level of sanity a developer must
maintiain while working with monster flash files the way they used to be. When
I hit undo 10 times in a MovieClip symbol... I DON'T WANT TO END UP ON THE MAIN
TIMELINE!
This used to be such a fantastic way of testing out ideas and experiementing
with alternate solutions. I always knew that if it didn't work, I could hit
undo 15 times in a symbol and all would be well again. My guess is macromedia
had a great idea for the history palette and saving steps (which could be
cool), but gave up trying to make it work relative to an object. So this was
the half-ass solution to making it work.
This is probably why I haven't been contacted to be a Beta tester in a while.
Hehe.
Great job guys.. .you broke what didn't need to be fixed.
Jeckyl
of 'normal' mode.
MM have hinted that the changes were necessary to implement command history
and jsfl etc.
Will Lanni
BTW ... what about the many beta testers .. did
1) The beta testers not find the problem and so MM had no idea that what
they were doing would cause problems for users
2) They found the problem and reported it, but MM ignored or dismissed their
concerns and implement it anyway
3) The single undo/redo stack was added too late in the beta process to be
found in time for beta testers to report it
Although I was a beta tester, I know I didn't use it enough in a full
development situation to have noticed it .. and I don't recall if/when it
was part of the matador/toreador betas.
But surely, with what I assume was a fairly large group of beta testers
SOMEONE must have noticed this and reported it to Macromedia before MX 2004
was released.
Do any of the other beta testers know if they found this change in undo
behaviour before release and reported it ??????
I was a beta tester for Flash 5, when I worked for the Disney Internet Group.
There was a large group of us that beta tested, and individually we all came up
with the same bugs. We submitted them to MM. When the final version came out,
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE BUGS WAS PRESENT.
These weren't feature changes, they were bugs. I laugh as I consider many of
the dumber feature changes I've experienced from Flash 4 to 7 and joked about
them being bugs. Things like altering the functionality of double clicking same
color/width strokes and not having ALL of those strokes select like they did
back in flash 4 -- which made drawing a preferable tool to Illustrator for that
brief period of time. Now, you get weird random behavior -- sometimes all of
the strokes select, sometimes only a piece of them do... makes drawing -- which
a LOT OF US ACTUALLY STILL DO IN FLASH -- a pain. Or having the advanced
settings in the properties palette pop up a window rather than use that
tremendous amount of palette real estate -- or even not being able to escape
out of editing any of the text fields in any of the palettes in any manner,
which means I have to switch the mouse and click the move tool, rather than
just hitting escape and hitting 'v' like most other programs.
The history palette is yet another disappointment for me in the life of flash.
If it weren't for added features and functionality in actionscript (textwidth
and textheight YES!!!), I'd still be using flash 5. Actually, MX hasn't been
too bad. I've recommended not upgrading to the two companies I work for, plus
the 3-4 I consult for. Unfortunately, one of them opted to upgrade a few of us
to keep on top of 'latest technology' which means I'm in development UNDO hell
as well. But luckily, for the others we can stick with MX and live happily ever
after.
I swear, I wish there was some competition to Macromedia for Flash. It's too
bad livemotion didn't take off. (I own it too hehe). But, seeing as how there's
no choice for us, we're forced to purchase shoddy, poorly tested products, in
order to make our living.
... I hear being a forest ranger is nice... :P
Dan Defenbaugh
doing as many products as possible with their only real competition...
http://www.swishzone.com/index.php?area=products&product=max
d
kobobot
Jeckyl
Better off doing an official wishlist.
Of course, that won't necessarily mean that MM will agree with you and
change it back again :)