Stop the press!
Leo
Ok, first of all I don't want to get into a long discussion with you
about the critic I'm about to give, because I do this for a living
and I charge by the hour. It might sound like I have a stuck up
attitude and that might be the case. It might also be that I feel the
urge to share some thoughts for the benefit of everyone.
Now, I not some guru or Dog or anything and this might not be
something that the company I work for agrees with. This is me talking
to you from my own personal/professional viewpoint.
Please think about what you are selling (in this case the services of
a NewMedia studio - http://www.cmi.lu).
No, you're not selling Flash or QuarkXpress or Photoshop - you are
selling the company's creative services. Focus, people.
Flash is Flash is Flash. So what?
It's what you do with it that's important.
It doesn't have to be unique or avant garde or even very creative. It
has to be good; really good if you want to make money out of it.
For example, what does an animation add to selling a product or
service? In this case (http://www.cmi.lu), nothing. In Gabocorps
case, nothing. In 99% of all Flash sites I've seen to this date,
nothing.
When does animations in Flash work?
In South park on the Shockrave site(or whatever it's called).
On the Olympic Games site (where Flash is used tastefully).
People, please get a general education of design. PLEASE. This stuff
just ain't happening and it's really sad to see because the web is a
great medium to work with
(I guess I shouldn't really complain because the poor stuff out there
just makes my stuff look all that much better).
The good news is that all of us have so much great, fun stuff to
learn (including myself).
Things I recommend for everyone to have an in depth look at include
(and this little list is by far incomplete)-
Various animation techniques, "Disney", clay, cutouts, line art,
animation history, "MTV", Movie titles and so on.
Timing. Without a keen sense of timing all animation is doomed. At
least a second per word on screen. Longer if the font is weird or
"special".
Balance
Harmony
Graphic Design and I don't just mean contemporary stuff. Check out
all cultures through history up to and beyond today.
Typography (Macromedia should really hire a fulltime traditional
typographer that can oversee all incorperation of Type handling into
their software. Screenfonts is a univers in itself). Type is an
underestimated, misunderstood entity onscreen. There is much to be
done here, and the software companies really have to wake up and help
us designers out.
Color. Need I say more? I know the web is tricky and screens vary
though this is only more reason to study and experiment with color
for onscreen productions. Also take into account colorblindness (try
your images in grey scale and perhaps pull down the contrast up abit
to get a feel for what it is like to be colorblind, maybe a little
blur as well). Also mind the fact that the brilliant thing with
computers are that they are light based (like a slide projectors, a
TVs and film projectors) not print based. This gives images alot of
"punch" but is also mercyless on the eyes for longer periods of
time. Have mercy.
Content. You know, the stuff that's usually missing in some of the
Flash sites that I've seen out there.
And so on...
Focus, patience, persistance and passion are my words of guidence.
Less is more can also apply.
Bon travail,
Leo
PS To see some Flash stuff by me check out and click on "Flash". I'm
afraid it's in Swedish but there you have it.
http://www.wognum-art.se/biografi
________________________________________________
W O G N U M - Interactive Design & Development
Birger Jarlsgatan 39, S-111 45 Stockholm, Sweden
Phone: +46-8-54 51 22 22 Fax: +46-8-54 51 22 33
Mobile: +46-708-127906
www.wognum.com
________________________________________________
Please don't email me.
Email this forum instead for everyones' benefit.
Simon
>PS To see some Flash stuff by me check out and click on "Flash". I'm
>afraid it's in Swedish but there you have it.
>http://www.wognum-art.se/biografi
This page is difficult to navigate bcause one must hold the mouse pointer
over the button/text for the duration of its anim in order to procede to the
chosen page. it took me a while to figure out, i.e. not good design. The
rest looks very nice.
im not going to comment on the rest of the stuff except to say that i find
crap web pages much more tolerable now that people are making them look
better with programs like flash.
Given time people will get used to flash and good design. Im sure the
program is still young, not mainstream yet.
I just glad there is an alternative to html...
LeadDog
This is my first site. I would like any feedback anyone has about it.
There is a FLASH link from this page if you want to enter it that way.
Thanks.
Lea...@SoftHome.net
"The world's greatest athletes eat raw meat, run naked, and sleep in the
snow" (sled dogs of course!)
---------------------------------------------------------
Cyberdog ---A Product of Apple Computer, Inc.
---------------------------------------------------------
FRC
I agree wholeheartedly with the sense and comments of the critique with respect to art, animation, and typography.
http://www.wognum-art.se/biografi.
Viewed with NS4.5 MAC T1 sound off:
(Review limited to the Flash selection)
This is a lovely visual presentation, true to the guidelines you professed
in the critique of http://www.cim.lu. For those unschooled the message
is Learn. Those of us, probably only me, who are untalented are left
to lament the veracity.
There are, unfortunately, considerations in Flashed Site construction which are not about Art , but do effect the Art.
Main loads, select NIVA 4/ Flash, new window, sel Index, main is replicated
in new window, select Niva again...nothing.
Close newwindow, clear cache, reload page, sel Niva, sel Leo...OKI's
bio instead.
sel back, sel Niva...nothing.
Close window, sel Niva, sel Leo...nothing.
This Site does not work well.
There is more to a Flashed Site than good, well trained eyes and hands.
GLASGOW
Leo
Leo
LeadDog
it on his computer. I had another friend look at it that works with FLASH
and we changed a few things in the HTML that might make it look better now.
I changed the Quality from AUTO HIGH to HIGH and turned DEVICE FONTS on.
I'll remember about the little spinning thing next time I make the site.
It's just a very small version of the main navigation system that spins all
the time. There is no funcution it it just thought I needed something
there. The "candy corn" is a scan of a tin we sell here. I broke it apart
in FLASH and made it a soild color.
>Hey LeadDog.. very clever presentation of a lot of
>information -- a content
>filled site! Your photos were really nice and clear! The
>text seemed to be
>rather jagged...but it was readable. The figures were a bit
>jagged too..
>could not tell if this was a rustic effect or not. Could
>not figure out
>what that little spinning thing in the upper right corner
>was about...I kept
>going to it to click it but nothing happened.. it was
>distracting from the
>product info. Your icons remind me of candy corn. :) I
>viewed on 133 mhz,
>win 95, 28.8 modem speed using IE 4.
scribe1
filled site! Your photos were really nice and clear! The text seemed to be
rather jagged...but it was readable. The figures were a bit jagged too..
could not tell if this was a rustic effect or not. Could not figure out
what that little spinning thing in the upper right corner was about...I kept
going to it to click it but nothing happened.. it was distracting from the
product info. Your icons remind me of candy corn. :) I viewed on 133 mhz,
win 95, 28.8 modem speed using IE 4.
scribe1
smooth now! Tremendous improvement!! (Still think the little twirly thing is
cute but distracting from your main message -- the product!)
Karen
LeadDog wrote in message ...
>Thanks for the feedback. > I changed the Quality from AUTO HIGH to HIGH
LeadDog
gone. I'm not sure what to do about the twirly thingy. I felt that I
needed something over there to balance out the veiw. I have some ideas but
will work on them after the Christmas rush. Thanks again.
>Looked at the site again.. the "rustic" look is gone and it
>is nice and
>smooth now! Tremendous improvement!! (Still think the
>little twirly thing is
>cute but distracting from your main message -- the
>product!)
>
>Karen
Lea...@SoftHome.net
Erik A. Mattila
points. My view is that many designers are selling Flash—showing what
they can do with this tool. By extension, I believe that there is a
growing pool of potential clients who want to pay someone to give them a
"Flash" site, with not too much thought beyond the idea that is is
"Flash." (Just to be in vogue, you understand).
However, in spite of my minor disagreement the points you have made
hold-up and have considerable merit. What may be afoot here that is
relevant is the old art school adage: "The self-taught artist has a fool
for a teacher." This aphorism stands in opposition to the promise of
computer graphic software—that once you learn to push the right button
you will be transformed into an 'artist."
Many years ago I attended a colleg course on photography. I quickly
learned the basic competence of a photographer—exposure, developing and
printing. It was very gratifying. One day, however, I stumbled across
a book of prints by Henri Cartier-Bresson, and his work knocked my socks
off. I had to ask myself the question: how do I get from my basic
competence in photography to calling myself a 'photographer' in the
sense that Cartier-Bresson was a 'photographer.' The answer that came
to my mind was so intimidating that I abandoned my pretentions of
photography, because dealing with the subtlties and profoundity of the
photographer's art obviously would take the dedication of a life=time.
But that was thirty-five years ago—I don't think that most people think
this way anymore.We live now in an age of quick-fixes, media-bytes,
clichés, stereotypes, and instant gratification. It is a very shallow
age, Today, I think, learning the basic competence of photography is
enough, and you can then hang out your "photographer' shingle—and
there's really a chance that you can prosper as a photographer without
really attaining any measure of 'professional' mastery.
It's a kind of fraudulent activity in the context that you are bringing
up, however (Professional Standards?? What's that???). But in the
context of shallowness, it is a very legitimate enterprise (in that the
'shallowness' co-exists on both sides of the equation-the artist and the
audiance.
The agency that developed Budweiser's advertising campaign exhibited a
profound knowledge of this situation when they came up with the very
successful "Why ask why?" idea. It seems to be the relevant motto of
our age.
The "Why ask why" syndrome seems to permeate this discussion group (so
we know that we have a good representation of society in general here).
It amazes me that a provocative posting such as yours raises so little
comment of response. At least I would expect some defense of position
from those who have hung up their shingles without even understanding
what 'design' is ((I do believe it is a defensible position). The
silence disturbs me—it makes me feel very lonely and somewhat freakish.
Here it is, a discussion group called "flash.site design" where actual
'design' issues are seldom discussed in relationship to the software.
I don't believe this situation (which a friend of mine describes as "a
world of grey mayonaise") is caused by a lack of intellectual vitality
in the user's of this newsgroup, but rather by the intervention of
'style.' It is unstylish today to reveal your ignorance or lack of
competence (which arises after countless 'media-years' of the human
psyche being subjected to the logic of silly bipolar reductions like
winners/losers; success/failure; fit/fat; stylish/nerdish;
abled/disabled; and so on. The spirit of intellectual inquiry does not
operate on simplistic polarities, but rather occupies an area that if
full of doubt, ambiguity, pain, fear—it is a catabasis (meaning a 'a
night sea journey or right of passage' where the subject must pass
through an ordeal in order to 'unlearn' [die] and 'relearn' [rebirth].
And this journey would be pointless unless the rewards [the treasure
hard to attain] exceeds the cost. (I apologise for the mythological
metaphor).
I encourage participants in this discussion group to respond to Leo's
post. The answer to the question "Why ask why" is, of course, that it
will make you more competent as a designer. Remember, ignorance is a
good thing, since it only means that there is much to learn. It's ok to
be wrong about something. It's ok to disagree with something, and more
ok to defend a position. It's ok to debate. Actually, these things are
fun.
Flash is a great tool. Probably an awesome tool in the hands of someone
who has the design competence, background and knowledge that Leo is
alluding to.
Erik Mattila
Leo wrote:
> Time out people!
> (clipped)
> PS To see some Flash stuff by me check out and click on "Flash". I'm
> afraid it's in Swedish but there you have it.
> http://www.wognum-art.se/biografi
>
FRC
Enough of the generalities. No one will benefit from the exhortation to
learn without some examples and "see, this is good" isn't sufficient
without some "Whys" and "Wherefores". Telling someone ignorant, such as me,
that there is one carload of Angus leaves to learn isn't inspiring and
helpful. I'm ignorant, not stupid.
Now Leo, by confession, doesn't want to discuss because he's paid big bucks
to do. Is that the case with most, who are qualified, out there? Is this
just a big competitive thing about money and/egos ?
I'll ask the question.
http://www.wognum-art.se/biografi , (Just the fonts and their application )
I can SEE that this works, Why does it work?
GLASGOW
Allanon
is similar to your post. I've realized that almost anyone with decent
computer skills can make a web page; however, it takes a DESIGNER to make a
great page. What I mean is that it takes an innate ability to place things
gracefully, and an instinct of how to communicate through visual media. I
think this is why we've seen a shift from "Web Programmers"...to "Web
Designers". Just my humble opinion.
Matt
Erik A. Mattila
Rosseck" (senility) which was reputed to be the very best there was.
Hand set type was stil the standard for them most extravegant
productions (Photp Type and Imagesetters were the pending competition).
The shop was peopled by 'old masters' who could drop the lead at amazing
rates, and kern and lead in such away that an obseerver like me couldn't
really tell what was happening (it was all a blur預nd remember, the work
was done with the type upsidedown and backwards). It was really
awe-inspiring to witness this kind of craftsmanship that probably
belonged to the lineage that went back to Gutenberg. What this did to
me was create an idea in my mind that the heart of advertisning design
was typography. I felt less than up to par every time I speced type and
ordered "Photon" galleys. But to see the difference takes some
experience悠 mean you look at so much type that you start having
reactions葉his looks better than that.
Often, when I'm considering a job, I start with selecting a typeface擁t
may not be the most important thing about a design layout, but the
habitual process is kind of a tantric exercise, a meditation, and
looking at type many times brings general design ideas up to
consciousness. Subsequently, I look at a lot of web sites that offer
'freeware' and 'shareware' computer fonts, which gives me a
perspective. There are a lot of ways that the font site designers
display these fonts, some better than others in the specific fonts being
showcased.
So specifically, my admiration of the font display at
http://www.wognum-art.se/biografi is based on the fact that I have
never seen fonts displayed in this manner. The animation was only one
aspect of this uniqueness. An important and original feature, I think,
was the the fonts were displayed within their context溶ot a page display
where the viewer can see several fonts at once. This was very clever on
the designer's part, I think, since in use we seldom see fonts displayed
eclectically. What better way to demonstrate the virtue of a particular
typeface design? (that is why I found the spinning windmill distracting
and irrelevant as a design element). Incidentally, a typeface is a very
difficult design project. I've taken a stab at it once or twice, but
didn't get very far. So that is my final criteria for applauding this
particular Flash design擁t showed that the designer had a lot of respect
for typography in general謡hich kind of personalized it for me.
I would recommend against using the words 'ignorant' and 'stupid' in the
same sentence, Glasgow. "Ignorant" has as much a bad connotative
rap-sheet as it can bear in modern usage. My idea was that we shouldn't
be reluctant to show that we don't know about or understand something.
And I've noticed that many people I know just stay silent about things
they don't know about or understand, and it is fashionable to be this
way溶ever reveal a shortcoming, fault, anything less than creating the
social impression that you are 'on top of' every situation. Does that
make sense?
Money and egos? Sure, why not? Competition? Every job I get someone
else won't get悠 can't do anything about that. I can't speak for Leo,
but my sense of what he was saying was basically 'positioning.' I am a
professional, prozlytizing professional standards and commitment, and I
am saying this or that for your benefit. Since I am already guilty of
posting aphorisms, here's one: Is Leo "throwing pearls before swine?"
(Like Bill Clinton, if I get flamed for that remark, I deserve it!)
Erik
FRC
"Erik A. Mattila" wrote:
<clipped>
>
> Often, when I'm considering a job, I start with selecting a typeface擁t
> may not be the most important thing about a design layout, but the
> habitual process is kind of a tantric exercise, a meditation, and
> looking at type many times brings general design ideas up to
> consciousness. Subsequently, I look at a lot of web sites that offer
> 'freeware' and 'shareware' computer fonts, which gives me a
> perspective. There are a lot of ways that the font site designers
> display these fonts, some better than others in the specific fonts being
> showcased.
>
> So specifically, my admiration of the font display at
> http://www.wognum-art.se/biografi is based on the fact that I have
> never seen fonts displayed in this manner. The animation was only one
> aspect of this uniqueness. An important and original feature, I think,
> was the the fonts were displayed within their context溶ot a page display
> where the viewer can see several fonts at once. This was very clever on
> the designer's part, I think, since in use we seldom see fonts displayed
> eclectically. What better way to demonstrate the virtue of a particular
> typeface design? (that is why I found the spinning windmill distracting
> and irrelevant as a design element). Incidentally, a typeface is a very
> difficult design project. I've taken a stab at it once or twice, but
> didn't get very far. So that is my final criteria for applauding this
> particular Flash design擁t showed that the designer had a lot of respect
> for typography in general謡hich kind of personalized it for me.
>
Now that was of great benefit and greatly appreciated.
Are there any other professionals out there that will speak to the
question?
GLASGOW
miro
between craft(the physical ability to do a task), and art(the mastery of
each aspect of said task).
In webpage design today, I see numerous examples of craft filling the
expanses between the examples of art, myself included.
--
ż peace.miro
contacts to.: mir...@nospam.home.com (minusthenospam)
visuals from.: www.odyssey.on.ca/~mlutman
Erik A. Mattila wrote in message <3672F592...@tomatoweb.com>...
<clipped>
Mr. Bungle
what Leo says 100%, however.... some sites are not designed to be anything
more than eyecandy.
Example: When you go to the movies, do you compare Amistad to Rambo? Or A
Bug's Life to Driving Miss Daisy? You can't say "Rambo sucks!" just because
it didnt measure up to your artistic criteria of what is a good movie. Rambo
found its niche as did Amistad, and they appeal to different audiences.
Sometimes, however, they appeal to the same audience.. I like Mad Max but it
doesnt mean I dont like Titanic, because its a tear-jerker. I listen to
Bach while I work, but I can still listen to top 40 hits and take them for
what their worth - earcandy.
Ciao,
Bungle
:::: If you Spam me, I'll flip a coin:
Heads: I'll crash your server.
Tails: Happy Virus Mail to you.
You decide.
Leo
London. I was 10. Dad knocked on the door and suddenly I was in a
most fantastic place. A luxurious studio with 8 meters to the
ceiling, topped off with glass panelling roof. The furnishing was
sparse yet unique. The artist and dad had some business to discuss so
I was at liberty to explore the place on my own. On one wall was a
huge painting, in oil and only half done. The pencil sketching on the
canvas could still be seen at various spots, and the under painting
in others. Yet the primary and secondary motifs were done... A proud
knight in shiny armour mounted on a zebra. They stood in a fantasy
summer landscape by a magical lake, surronded by snow topped
mountains. I walked right up to it, tea cup in one hand and a towel
in the other. I was in love and I knew what I wanted to do with my
life. Soon twenty years down the road and I'm still learning, still
intoxicated...
....and still in love.
__________________________
It might not be oils (even if that happens from time to time). Flash
is part of the production now. I might not be a fine artist, but a
commercial artist.
It's nice to know that other professionals are taking a liking to
Flash. I believe Flash can do wonders for the web for the simple fact
that it can give the creator control, much unlike html or dhtml.
I'm not a programmer, we have programmers on our payroll. These
people take care of the technical aspects of our productions. Code
doesn't really "do it" for me. I guess I can handle a little if I
have to but I'm a believer of the functions of the left and right
hemispheres of the mind. But in contrast to this I also see the
wisdom in what Ingmar Bergman once said - " Only when you master the
technical aspects (of filmmaking) can you truely release creativity."
(loosely translated). Meaning, of course, that I should be the best
programmer ever because the web is my medium. But I never will be
even a modest programmer (if you can call writing html programming. I
guess not).
The left brain hemisphere being logical and the right being
chaotic/creative.
Believing in this it's amazing that I can work with a computer at
all. The computer being totally logic and my hands/eyes always
looking to click icons, mark selections or punch keys to various
short commands. This craftmanship in itself always calls upon the
left hemisphere.
In a little more detail, the theory goes something like this.
Because of traditional schooling (elementary and high school and
collage) emphasizing logic learning (ie languages, math, physics
instead of more time spent on, for example, drawing) the left brain
hemisphere is dominant over the right side. Therefore as soon our
logic tells us something is wrong we instinctively try to correct it.
This might not always be for the better. Sometimes mistakes inhance
the final result, making it more personal and interesting, especially
in the art world. Sketching thumbnails of sites with pencil and paper
gives oneself more freedom to interesting solutions, don't worry
about code, k weight, and technicalities. Just let the right brain
hemisphere loose. Then, when I have something that looks half way
interesting on paper, I start thinking about the specifics of the the
client's brief or what browser you are using.
First off I want to capture a feeling, get a vibe into the work.
Useally this is on a very subconscious level and I can spend about 60
to 70% of the total production time on this phase, sketching, search
for something to "click" (no pun intented). Sometimes fonts and
specific images are up on screen or litter the studio. Most of the
sketch time I listen to the same music again and again, driving
myself into a creative trance where the time of day just gets blown
away.
In this, right hemisphere trance, way of working Flash is really
great because it's such an easy program to learn (nothing like
Debabelizer! (laugh)).
Drawing stuff by hand, working with lots of ink, sketching up the
pages and throwing them into the scanner (which is always close at
hand) and into photoshop and then into Freehand or directly to Flash
(for a nice bitmap trace, perhaps?). The process, the vibe, when
working is nice. It's proberbly the time when I'm the most happy in
life. Working and creating. Thank you Macromedia for Flash. I hope
that soon enough Cyber Studio, Pagemill or Dreamweaver will make the
creative process as fluid as Flash does. Not because of what Flash
can do but also because of how the editor works (with it's timeline
and symbol library) and the streaming and the creative control.
From one thing to the other.
Bungle,
sure some sites are eyecandy, after all we are working with a visual
medium. Though there are very few sites out there that are
specifically eyecandy. The Remedi Project being one of those few.
Gabocorp is not. And I could make the list very long of those sites
that are not yet over do it - oh, well. You know where I'm heading. I
guess it just comes down to good old "tea or coffee ?" situation.
Which do you prefer? (Don't answer that, it's retorical).
Of course I would compare Amistad to Rambo. Everthing that we take
in is mixed up in our minds, this is what makes us unique; its
stirred around and is spit out again. I call it inspiration. I'm not
talking about an artistic point of view, I'm giving a very
personal/professional point of view. Please notice that I write those
two words together. I am what I do and I do what I do because of who
am I, because I wouldn't have it any other way. My art reflects my
life and my life reflects my art (though not always). All my friends
have "creative" jobs (writers, film makers etc), every aspect of my
like (except my very unfashionable wardrobe) is centered around what
Alanis calls intellectual intercourse, what else is the act of
creation. That's why it so nice to have people like yourself and
Erik comment my thoughts. Thank you
Glasgow,
In this example (http:www.wognum-art.se/biografi) the fonts were
already set because of our companies typographic profil. If I redid
it today I wouldn't use the cursiv style on the surnames because it's
barely legible with the serifs and the anti aliasing which Flash puts
on all fonts. The important thing to get across was everybodies first
name because we are on first name basis with all our clients. Its all
on a very personal, up front level yet we wanted to keep the surnames
in there. The Dave McKean inspired wirley font thing happening on
the other pages as I wanted to use a metaphor for the "organic" way
specific project teams are put together within the company. We put
together the various people based on the needs of the project.
On the subject of "whys and wherefores" here's a little book list on
various subjects, enjoy.
Typografisk Handbok by Christer Hellmark ISBN 91-7324-445-7 (in
Swedish, I'm don't know if its available in English. It's about the
"rules" of typography)
Designing Business by Clement Mok
Animation from Script to Screen by Shamus Culhane
The Natural Way to Draw by Kimon Nicolaïdes
Film Directing Shot by Shot
Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud
Burton on Burton (a nice book about the film director Tim Burton.
People's accomplishments inspire me greatly, and therefore I like
hearing what they have to say about stuff, where people are "coming
from" in the spiritual, creative work way and where they are going).
Matt,
One might be born with a talent or find that one is really good at
something for no obvious reason yet I also believe that certain (I'm
not saying all of them) schools are excellent but it is of course as
much as to the individual in question to get the most out of a
school. I was surprise to find the artistic motivation of my fellow
pupils in collage nill (with the exception of a few), doing poor
work and rather partying instead of truely finding what they love to
do (even if everyone loves a good party). One can spend years in a
higher education program refining ones skill and learning what is
good design or art or whatever tickles your fancy. Like Disney and
Nike said, just do it.
Erik,
I hope you don't mind a personal question... How old are you? Not
that its important, just wondering.
And also, is there any site at which I can see your work?
Until next,
Leo
FRC
A very gracious response. Thank you.
Are there any other professionals, who benefit from the forum, that are
willing to put something back by addressing the question?
GLASGOW
Erik A. Mattila
much you charge your clients? (I joke.) I'll avoid any breach of
protocol by simply stating that I was born in San Francisco, California
in February of 1943. You will have to use your atrophied left brain to
get your answer.
My two major contracts are @ http://www.cniga.com and
http://www.ccst.ucr.edu . Neither has any Flash content, I regret to
say. The clients both seem to be very conservative about this, but it
is in the works and I think that it is only a matter of time before
Flash is introduced. I also am designing my own company site, but I am
very unfocused, maybe even afraid to commit myself to a design. But it
will be presentable soon, contain plenty of Flash, and I will certainly
post the URL in this discussion and request feedback and criticism.
I join with FRC in commending you for your very thoughtful post. I
think that where we need to go from here is to tackle the problem of
animation, from a design perspective. This is certainly a problem
that's grabbing my attention. If we could get a thread going on this, I
think users of this group could come up with some very valuable
collective insights about this problem. By "problem" I mean it in the
sense of an "artistic" problem庸or example, the problem of size and
scale in a painting. You can paint a postage size canvass of something
huge, like Mt. Everest, and achieve the sense of 'scale'葉he tremendous
mass of the mountain熔r you can paint a huge mural of Mr. Everest in a
way it looks like a tiny bump among other tiny bumps. This is an
artistic 'problem.'
The fact that Flash animates creates the artistic problem of
'animation.' And this is discussed from time to time in posts in this
group. Animation can either enhance or distract the message謡ork for it
or against it. So what is the grammar? the 'rules' of formation? How
much do we know about the element of movement and its semiosis (how it
'means')? "Knowledge" in this case has to be something beyond the
artistic hunch, inspiration熔r any other manifestation of the "Muse",
innate artistic 'genius' or any other of a shopping list of terms that
are really very glaring generalities and don't transfer well in terms of
instruction.
Look at this discussion about Rambo and Amistad. Comparable? Of
course傭ut then are ways of comparing anything to anything擁t gets
rediculous sometimes. So the productive trajectory is to make your
comparisons in a way that will be useful and meaningful in the context
of the social exchange of knowledge. In the case of these two quite
different films, a productive comparison would be to base the discussion
on the works of the French philosopher Giles Deleuze, who wrote a
wonderful two-volume study of cinema. In the course of his work, he
divided film into two major historical epochs, the cinema of light and
the cinema of movement. Since Flash designers work both with light and
movement, by the nature of the computer, there is likely to be much
knowledge in Deleuze's work that is directly transferable to the
problems a Flash designer faces. Of course both Rambo and Amistad are
on the same side of this historical division between light and movement,
and comparable on that basis.
Another powerful reference addressing the problems of comparable media
is Vladamir Propp's "Morpholgy of the Folktale." It may seem silly to
some to approach the problem of web site design by reading books on
Fairy Tales, but nevertheless its true. Propp wrote in the early 30's
from the Lenningrad Institute, and made an incredible contribution to
cultural and media studies by discovering that folk tales were
categorized all wrong in the literature on the subject. Propp
discovered that all the Russian folktales could be reduced down to about
twenty stories, since the 'actants' (characterized) whether it was the
Prince, Mayor's son, Knight, Priest or what ever 'functioned' exactly
the same in hundreds of folktales. When you become aware of these
functions, it is easy to look at, say, comic books and see the same
thing going on, or at web sites and see the same thing going on. So
back to Rambo and Amistad, in some sense the lawyer who risks his
profession to defend a very unpopular cause is very similar to Rambo's
melodramas. (That's pushing it a bit, but I'm sure you see my point).
My attitude is that if I am to call myself a Flash designer I would have
to have a very significant understanding of movement. I don't have
this. It baffles me, as a matter of fact. I do, however, have a very
signifacnt understanding of mass media, so I have command over at least
some of the tools required to gain an understanding of movement and
animation. It is very instructional for me to visit hundreds of web
sites posted in this group and watch how movement is used, even if the
animations don't really work well with the context of the site. Knowing
what doesn't work is as informative as knowing what does work.
What remains is to develop a vocabulary of movement, a taxonomy of
functions, and develop a grammar. I think the media is unique enough to
require some re-writing of the old text aimed at other media. The w3
just doesn't operate like cinema, TV advertising, even comic books葉here
are similarities, but to export knowledge from other media studies
should be done with caution.
Erik
Leo wrote:
> clipped
Mr. Bungle
>
>Bungle,
>sure some sites are eyecandy, after all we are working with a visual
>medium. Though there are very few sites out there that are
>specifically eyecandy.
Hmm... I could agree with this up to a point. Perhaps I phrased it
wrongly.... Most sites are not eyecandy, but most sites do contain an
enormous amount of eyecandy. Gabo is a nice site (I really don't ant to
start another Gabo thread), but is there a reason for all the objects that
flow across the screen when clicked on? Does it add anything to the site?
The first time I saw that site I said "WOW!, I gotta get Flash!". However,
on subsequent visits, I wanted to read subject matter and all that slow
tweening is just inpractical for the efficient delivery of information.
Hence, eyecandy or "filler" if you perfer.
The Remedi Project being one of those few.
>Gabocorp is not. And I could make the list very long of those sites
>that are not yet over do it - oh, well. You know where I'm heading. I
>guess it just comes down to good old "tea or coffee ?" situation.
>Which do you prefer? (Don't answer that, it's retorical).
Coffee....doh!...nevermind.
> Of course I would compare Amistad to Rambo. Everthing that we take
>in is mixed up in our minds, this is what makes us unique; its
>stirred around and is spit out again. I call it inspiration. I'm not
>talking about an artistic point of view, I'm giving a very
>personal/professional point of view. Please notice that I write those
>two words together. I am what I do and I do what I do because of who
>am I, because I wouldn't have it any other way. My art reflects my
>life and my life reflects my art (though not always). All my friends
>have "creative" jobs (writers, film makers etc), every aspect of my
>like (except my very unfashionable wardrobe) is centered around what
>Alanis calls intellectual intercourse, what else is the act of
>creation.
Nevermind me, I'm an economist by training and don't claim to be a
"designer" in any way shape or form. The sites I've created have a very
symmetrical, linear look and feel to them. I wish I had the time to learn
how to use that other underdeveloped side of my brain, but one has to go
where the money is....I guess.
I've learned a lot from listening in on the discussions that take place
here. Most of you designers have a different way of laying out a site that
I. Like you stated above, and I guess I can summarize....your sites are a
work of art, in essence. I strive for a more functional approach,
information should be provided quickly and easily accessible to the viewer.
Good design is of course important (no one will stick around if you're site
looks like gif animation madness), however it isnt the focal point when I
design. That is why I sometimes have trouble with this newsgroup. Often I
click on the "Check this out" links to find a 200kb monster waiting for me
to download. Often they are very nice ( at that size they should be), but
are they practical? I would bet that most surfers are chugging along at 28.8
and have 640x480 res on their systems. Do the designers in here consider
this? Or are they merely creating art for arts sake, or even just for their
sake? Does practicality go out the window where art is concerned?
>That's why it so nice to have people like yourself and
>Erik comment my thoughts. Thank you
>
Likewise.
--
Ciao,
Mr. Bungle
Jennifer
I stopped designing for a little while because of a thread about orbs. "Oh
no!" I thought. I can't really do anything in Flash but orbs. That's not
art, and it's not even very good design, really. What to do? Am I an
artist or a designer? Both or neither?
The distinction I am making is that design is corporate, usually. It's
about being visually appealing and representing your client well. Design
is clean and clear. ( and i agree, typography is very important - flash is
good with that ) I like design, it can be fun. But after working so long
on so many corporate websites, I lost all my inspiration.
I need some art too. Art can incorporate anything, but raises our
consciousness to the level of self-recognition.
So in my dry spell ... I finished my business plan, which makes me very
happy.
Now I need to create the concept art for the business plan, and I don't
know if Flash is up to the task, though it's my favorite tool. I need
something artistic - this is not a design project, and I think Flash may
only work for me as a design tool (if I continue designing - i'm sure i
will).
Any thoughts?
I am struggling...
How do I create a compelling artistic vision of another world?
Leo
I really want to write some thoughts about Erik's comments about art
and... I'm simply running into an Xmas deadline, so I'll hold that
thought.
Here's one for -
Jennifer
It's great fun to be able to rock loose in an arty sort of way on a
site, as most people have noticed. I'm doing that myself right now,
hopefully in a tasteful way.
And Flash might just be able to work for you.
I've gathered up a bunch of inspiration from various sources (though
Dave McKean covers dominate, I wonder why?)
After thumb nail sketching a few site pages (pen & paper) I came up
with a rollover scheme that I thought was visually nice and pretty
weird in general but because the site is a public site it has to be
"user friendly" so my boss had me kill my darlings (though I'll sneak
it in there anyway...).
Try working in a tradional way (oils, pastel or whatever you're good
at) and scan the stuff in and continue from there in the computer.
Flash does a hell of good job of tracing bitmaps to vectors and
Debabelizer does an even better job of compressing gifs and jpegs so
don't let the k weight of the art worry you because with some fancy
finger work you can make Flash stream big images in a very smooth way
(don't place two or more key frames in the same frame in the
timeline, spread the key frames out in a diagonal way). And also
check out the layer mask function. My upcoming site assignment will
launch next week (I'll post it here at "stop the press" for everybody
to scrutinize) and it uses layer masks like crazy. You can create
some really nice stuff with it. Hint, hint...
Some ways of getting great inspiration for new work (for me this is)
is to walk around book and music stores looking at covers (bring a
polaroid camera with you to shot inspiring covers) or I just hang
around my favorite cafe shops and sketch, listening to whatever music
that I feel catches the vibe of the upcoming site, right now it's
Nilson's "Arabic horse march". Hmmm.
Bon travial and have fun.
Leopoldo
Erik A. Mattila
I think the distinction between 'artist' and 'designer' is not so important
from the perspective of a person, such as yourself, doing the work. Ideas
often come hard (at least to me). That's the challenge. And dry spells?
They're really interesting, because I don't think you reall 'stop', but rather
evaluate things and come out of the situation better than ever.
I think Leo's comment about drawing is really good. Drawing seems to be at
the core of of things. Even something as innocent as doodling can unleash a
huge amount of powerful ideas. The nice thing about drawing is that you don't
have to make a committment since it's only costing you a pencil and paper.
It's really a wonderful freedom.
And if Flash is your favorite tool, I say use it. It is capable of art,
design, and whatever.
My vote is that you're both artist and designer. It all 'visual culture.'
The fact that we find 'art' in the museums and galleries and 'design' in the
look of building, magazines, and web sites is pretty meaningless when you sit
in front of a blank canvass or computer monitor and you are expected to come
up with something really good—consistently.
And that's where I'm at right now. I just got off the phone, and I have to
produce something 'visual' that's going to satisfy the client's desires in the
next 24 hours, and I don't have a clue. (I had the crazy idea that with the
holidays upon us I would have the opportunity for a dry spell, but it isn't
going to be that way, I guess).
So is it 'art?' I don't know. But look what happened when Andy Warhol
brought a can of soup into an art gallery. It kind of upset everybody's idea
about the question. Not coincidentally, Andy was an advertising designer
before he made his radical move.
Erik
Mr. Bungle
the walking around a bookstore with a polaroid someday.
--
Ciao,
Mr. Bungle
:::: If you Spam me, I'll flip a coin:
Heads: I'll crash your server.
Tails: Happy Virus Mail to you.
You decide.
Leo wrote in message <3678176E...@wognum.com>...
Jennifer
I didn't know that about Warhol, but it's exactly the transition I am speaking
about. That invisible line I want to cross.
And you are right that we never really do "nothing". The subconscious ( and
sometimes the conscious too) are always at work. My dry spell has actually turned
into a very productive time for me. And this thread is rather inspiring in
itself.
Thanks again.
Erik A. Mattila
I read a fascinating paper about DaVinci's "Mona Lisa," the painting that has become
the 'icon' of Art (with a capital A). As it turns out, the painting was stolen from
the Louvre sometime at the end of the 19th Century. As it turned out, the culprit
was an Italian employee who actually hid it in the Louvre. At the time it was pretty
insignificant, although it was a DaVinci and therefore important. Anyway, during the
time it was missing (a couple of months), the theft and the investigation made the
headlines first in Paris newspapers, later in the international press. It was the
big story par exellance. This historical period also was an important development
period for mass media, and advertisers began to use "Mona Lisa" as an icon, and there
were thousands of newspaper advertisments in several nations for Mona Lisa sardines,
underwear, insurance policies—what have you. Now today, the news event is not
remembered, but the 'icon' remains alive and well in popular culture. The "Mona
Lisa" is the greatest painting of all time, and the bewitching 'smile' is
profound—and recently, remarkably, it is Leonardo's self-portrait in drag. What I
think is interesting about this paper is its implications: who is the 'author'
(artist) of the quality of greatness in Art of the painting? Is it DaVinci, or the
scores of advertisers who really did something very complex and creative with a then
relatively insignicant painting?
So Flash designers take heart. The great German woodblocks of the sixteenth century,
now found in Art Museums, were originally produced in a commercial environment much
like independant contracting for web design and other modern commercial art
projects. Also, this is true of painting to a large extent. Remember, in Europe in
1525 there were no art musuems or galleries. Artists, such as Cranach, Rubens,
Holbien and Dürer, managed factories that produced their products. HRE Emporers
Charles & Maxmillian, as well as Henry VIII, would order lots of 35 - 40 portraits
to give away as Christmas Presents to their relatives. (There were no photographers,
either). What I think happens to us today is that many time our clients demand us to
do things we would rather not do, but yet do for the bread and butter of it all.
There's always that vision in our imagination that we could be confronting the easle
and freely creating instead of spending endless hours of formatting text into HTML.
So this whole post is my way of saluting 'desgn' itself as a very signifiant
activity, even if we have to put our own personal likes and dislikes aside to respond
to the whims of a client [ everybody is an art critic!!!]. Da Vinci had the same
problem, as did Fra Angelico, Giotto, and etc. etc. "Oh, no, not another Pieta!"
Erik
Erik
Jennifer
You touch on the ancient philosophical question, "What is art?"
I do agree that just being commercial does not rule out being
artistic, in fact, artists have always had to earn money too. Well,
most of them.
...but I don't necessarily agree that beauty is in the eye of
the beholder. Probably the Mona Lisa was a good work of art
before it was ever in the Louvre. : ))
And there are lots of people that like such bad art.... my
grandmother loves cheap landscape paintings, like they show
you how to make on Sunday morning television. That makes
them beautiful to her [which is great], but beautiful in an
"absolute" sense?
No way. lol.
Erik A. Mattila
is art' is very modern. The ancient's didn't seem to have the same
confusions that we do today, and thought about the question in a pretty
straightforward manner. When you start digging around in Art History &
Criticism some really interesting stuff pops up that challenge our
assumptions. For example, anything resembling an art musuem or gallery
didn't ocurr until around the 16th Century. This really shocked me when
I learned this, as I had assumed these kinds of thing stretched way back
into antiquity.
I saw a wonderful program a few years back on PBS: Bill Moyers in
Florence. At any given moment, Florence is literally crawling with Art
Historians, and Moyers interviewed several in the course of the
program. It was very exciting. An Art Historian would be standing in
front of Michelangelo's David spurting out endless praise concerning
'artistic genius' and assigning the quality "Art" to the work itself,
rather than locating the quality "Art" in culture, where I, and others,
believe it belongs.
In the middle of the program Moyers interviews Umberto Eco, novelist,
medievalist, semiotician from the University of Bologna. Eco laughs at
the Art Historian's ideas, and says words to the effect "The only thing
the Italian Renaissance 'created' was 'capitalism.' What does this
mean?
The central problem with Italian art during this period is attrition.
In other words, only about 10% of the art work produced in Italy duing
the Renaissance survived. A lot of art was produced because there was a
lot of wealth--capital was pouring into Europe literally by the boat
load with the sacking of the American civilizations like the Aztec,
Inca, Maya etc. At the begining of the Renaissance also the Moors were
expelled from Spain, leaving behind the only libraries of any
significance in all of Europe. As Europe absorbed this wealth and
knowledge society was transformed. Politics, education, art, and many
other social institutions were secularized, because for the first time
wealth and power came into the hands of people who were not directly
connected with either European Monarchies or the Church.
As it turns out, the Italian art that survived is the art that intrested
very rich commercial families like the Medicis in Florence, simply
because they had the economic means to protect it from the environment.
I studied Italian art with an Art Historian who commented "I would give
my eye-teeth to know what the average Florentine citizen in 1500 had
hanging on the kitchen wall." It was probably kitsch, but if it had
survived would be regarded as part and parcel of Italian Renaissance
art, and our contemporary criteria of 'what is art' may be quite
different today. The problem is that there are all sorts of clues, in
manuscripts, ledgers, memoirs, etc. that there were a great deal of
works of art that were highly regarded in 16th century Florence that
were not within the Medici's and other banking familiy's interest, and
didn't survive.
If you pick up a volume, or several volume, of Art History of the World
type books, and simply count pages, you will see the heavy bias that is
given to Italian Renaissance Art, so weighted that this art becomes the
standard that other art is measured against. And at the bottom of this
bias is the association that Eco made, Art with Capital. When you
seperate Art from Wealth, well...you can then make the argument that the
art that interests your grandmother has as much value as any other art.
Just look at the kind of cultural machinery that grinds its gears all
around us everyday; A wealthy Japanese pays 14 million dollars for Van
Gogh's Sunflowers, the American painter Jasper Johns sells a painting
for 4 million dollars, becoming overnight the world's highest paid
living artist. Actually, Johns was interviewed after this, and asked if
the sale was a validation of his stature as an artist. Johns' answer
was no, that it had nothing to do with his stature as an artist -- but
it had a lot to do with big business.
"Beauty" is another thing entirely. The discourse on beauty is very old
in western civilization, I'm sure at least to greek philosophy and
probably much older. But it is a different inquiry than "what is art?"
But even what is defined as 'the beautiful' is a product of culture, and
certainly a work of art can reflect or incorporate those concepts, or,
as is often the case, oppose the current standard of beauty. The
aesthetics of 'beauty' are also very sensitive to fashion systems, which
are very old social institutions that today have exploded with the
advent of mass media.
I have a tendency to like 'bad art' myself. Probably because I've
discovered I can do it. But in my way of thinking the Sunday Morning TV
art lessons are as valid as anything else in the world of art, unless I
attached the idea of 'capital' to it, as you did when you described it
as "cheap landscape painting." You know, by international agreement
'fine art' can be moved around the world exempt of import/export tariffs
& duties, so as wealth-collateral works of art are very important. This
is the driving force behind Art collecting, and the more the work of art
costs, the 'greater' it becomes. When you look at the whole process, it
is really fascinating, a Culture Industry of the highest order.
Oh, yeah, I just remembered the lost Abstract Expressionist,
Sharpinski. Sharpinski painted side by side with Rothko, Pollack, and
the other New York AEs in the 50's, but he was in the Army Reserves and
had to put in his 30 day duty down in Maryland, and during this time the
NY art dealer Leo Castelli 'discovered' the abstract expressionists and
their careers skyrocketed, pocketbooks suddenly bulging with hard earned
cash. Except Sharpinski, who missed out on the whole deal.
Never-the-less he kept painting, his school-teacher wife supporting them
and maintaining their modest NYC flat. He never earned much, maybe sold
a painting once in a while for a couple of hundred dollars. In the
mid-80's a school teacher from India, who traveled abroad every year,
was at a cocktail party in Ohio and met Sharpinski's son, and in the
course of their conversation the son shows the Indian photographs of his
dad's paintings, and the Indian flips-out -- he loves them. "They
reminded me of the springtime butterflys in India" he said. After
hearing of Sharpinski's misfortunate, the Indian takes it upon himself
to correct the situation, simply because he loved the paintings so
much. The next year the Indian goes to New York and literally hounds
all the art galleries, with no success. Nobody is interested in
Abstract Expression in 1985. There's no market. So the Indian goes
back to India pretty discouraged, but recollects his determination and
sets out for London the next year. He hounds the galleries, won't take
no for an answer, becomes a complete pest, but finally the Tate agrees
to give Sharpinski a one man show. Guess what happened? The show
sold-out (as I recall, on the first night, which is almost unheard of in
the gallery business). Sharpinski becomes an important painter. This
is a true story, published in The New Yorker in around 1987. I think
that's a wonderful story, but it shows how arbitrary success in Art can
be, or how arbitrary Art itself can be.
Erik (the long-winded)
Stephen Muro
War is considered an art.
Parenting is an art.
Art is not art until it evokes a reaction.
Thus, a loud belch after a meal is considered a tribute to the culinary art
in some cultures.
S.Muro
--
http://m-edgefx.com/Beta2
EFFECTIVE IMAGES FOR BUSINESS
AST
And sometimes, it smells like provolone.
-heydt
http://wolvesburrow.com recent addition to http://coolhomepages.com
Erik A. Mattila
quesition arises: "Why didn't I buy a half-0-rack?" (belch).
H.N.Y. Erik
Erik A. Mattila
H.N.Y. Erik
Heydt
Have you given any thought to cheese?
Erik A. Mattila
Heydt wrote:
> I don't believe I have the education to do that.
>
> Have you given any thought to cheese?
As a career? I am trying to decipher your message. I can identify some
rhymes with art, but cheese? When I was a kid I would buy Italian
sandwitches on the corner of Market and California Streets in San
Francisco, and I always ordered salami and provelone. It was a long
narrow delicatessen, pie shaped (California intersects Market at a very
steep angle). It's gone now, there's a highrise building in its place.
The sandwitches are gone, and they were an art form. So like Florence,
SF art has a very high rate of attrition.
Is this a trap?
Erik
Stephen Muro
Erik A. Mattila wrote:
> The sandwitches are gone, and they were an art form. So like Florence,
> SF art has a very high rate of attrition.
>
> Is this a trap?
>
> Erik
The greatest gastronomical art creation to come from San Francisco shall
forever remain the "It's It".
Just the facts ma'am... Just the facts...
Steve
Erik A. Mattila
in my maw to read the label. I'm with you on that one, but is it art?
(rhetorical question).
BTW, I lied. It was salami and garganzola, not provelone. And 'just the
fact ma'am' is almost too La La for a SF thread. borderline. Better for SF:
"The Jack Tar Hotel looks like the box that Disneyland came in" --Herb Caen
Feliz Año Nuevo, Erik
Stephen Muro wrote
Mark Allan
To me to give art a definition would be simply..
Art is expression and creation whether it be commercial
or not.....
There is not need to discuss the history of art or anything else
for that matter.. as all expression and creation..is just that simply Art.
Jennifer wrote in message <3687D0F6...@earthlink.net>...
AST
Oh, Yeah!
(See how artfully I said that?)
Creation without expression?
Thanks for defining "Art" for us in two sentences; now I can laugh at the people in the bookstore
looking through the two-thousand titles on the subject, some by authors with socks older than Jesus;
as I have been summarily enlightened.
Thanks, again!
-heydt
Erik A. Mattila
I started grappling with the question when leaning about the 'Performance Art' movement of the '70,
some of which were very mondo bazzaro, to say the least. The questioned always lingered "But is it
Art?" This applies too to much of the so-called "Post-Modern" movements. But the thing to keep in
mind is that much of the style and content of Post-Modernism has successuflly migrated to modern
Advertising Design, and it may be advantageous for a designer to develop a 'big picture' about these
things.
While the basic notion of 'Art' has been under attack for the last 30 years (primarily by artists
themselves) so have term such as 'creation' and 'expression,' which seem to be as ambiguous as the
term "Art" itself.
But I agree with Mark Allen, there is no 'need' to study art history (although in this case we're
really talking about Art Theory & Criticism). It all depends on whether one wants to be informed or
not. What I've seen in my experience is that a great many artists and designers are very interested in
this discourse, and feel a need to understand these issues.
Happy New Year,
Erik
Leo
Art in Theory ISBN0-631-16575-4
used at many higher education art schools (like Parsons School of
Design).
Cheers,
Jennifer
> Just for the sake of friendly argument, the philosophical question 'what
> is art' is very modern.
Ummm, I was of course talking about Plato... all depends what you consider
modern.
: )
I think you are a bit more Aristotelian, actually Hume would probably suit
you well.
Seems like everything is defined in very real physical terms for you...
capitalism, cultural norms, etc.
That's fine if you also believe in atomic theory and all that jazz, I
suppose.
But even Aristotle wrote about "The Soul".
Capitalism and physics simply don't define art (or beauty) for me.
I believe in the "absolute" and that art is defined by human nature,
and its universal archetypes and subconscious themes, which may be evolving,
but are absolute in their existence.
Personally I've never made peace with the unseen world. Never have resolved
the issue
of whether you all exist when I am not here. But it's easier for me not to
think about it,
just take the unseen on faith.
Erik A. Mattila
> <snip>
> I think you are a bit more Aristotelian, actually Hume would probably
> suit
> you well.
> Seems like everything is defined in very real physical terms for
> you...
> capitalism, cultural norms, etc.
> That's fine if you also believe in atomic theory and all that jazz, I
> suppose.
> <snip>
I was trying to figure out why Granny's art is 'cheap' which implies
that other art is not -- you know, what's that all about?. I make that
same kind of distinction all the time, even about Flash Sites I visit --
this is good and this is bad, and I don't believe asking myself 'why' is
necessarily a materialistic argument (in fact it usually is not).
I don't know how to frame that kind of an inquiry under the auspices of
archetypes, collected unconscious, or even the Berkelian axion 'essi es
percepi' (existence is being percieved) notion you propose.
Metaphysical assumptions are just that, Metaphysical assumption. While
they provide the holder with comfort and security about the bare fact of
existence, they are so personal that they aren't very useful in getting
ideas across -- you know, they only communicate something important to
the holder. "This is true because I believe it is true."
But more broadly speaking, much of what I have said was in response to
your original post, in which you shared on a public forum your concern
about 'artistic dry periods.' I'm merely suggesting that art is as much
an intellectual effort as it is an emotional effort. Knowledge simply
enhances art and liberates emotions, since the more you rationally
understand something you are doing the more profound it becomes, even in
the existential mode of things.
If you ever want to pursue this further, there's a remarkable little
book by the British Art Historian Edgar Wind, 'Art and Anarchy.' It's
only about 90 pages long, and Wind tackles both the notions, in the
context of modern art, that the 'subconscious' mind is the raw material
that will produce great art, as well as the belief that developed in
society that 'rational thought' will somehow deny the artist access to
this 'precious ore' of the unconscious. The little book disturbed me
when I first read it, because it tended to start knocking about many of
the 'sacred cows' I had about art -- some of my fundamental notions and
beliefs. But I finally had to concede that that's the whole point of
learning.
Erik
Craig James Olney
>
>
> If this is a forum for site design, where is the discussion on
> interactive site design? the stop press thing seemed to start of
> interestingly enough.
I've only just started to look at this forum so this may be
just a
phase in the discourse. If not then is there anyone that would like
to
discuss the various elements of interactive design and how they
fit into the larger art and design enviroment.
I am starting to become aware of a lack of ability on the behalf of
clients,
general public and even other designers to see past the surface of
the visual
graphic elements of interactive design. This isn't to say that this
part of the
recipe of interactive design isn't necessary. It's just that there
is so much more
in terms of the use architecture (navigation metaphors), sound,
animation etc,
anyone else here got a comment on this, or does anyone know where
people
do have a comment on this?
Craigie J
>
>
> ________________________________________________
--
Craig James Olney (MA)
Interactive Designer
Netsitepro
t: 01962 850085
f: 01962 850088
e: cr...@netsitepro.co.uk
Craig James Olney
Eric,
Thanks for the link. I've checked out the westminster site before
but had not come upon the research section.
As for any literature on web design, your right there doesn't
seem to be much about that isn't glossy superficial comment
on appearance.
"Information architects" is good for understanding Information design
in relation with architecture and sites a few interactive digital works
( in case you hadn't read it)
"society of the text" seems to go to the other extreme (opposite to
graphics) and look at hypertext systems in a very analytical fashion.
I can understand the lack of real theory on interactive design and
architecture. As most books on the study of any medium rely on there
being an extensive and varied, and identifiable quantity and quality
of work.
I feel in more need of a real forum where people show there work
and describe what they are trying to achieve and how they feel they
have done it. To say how they feel they are combining the various
elements of interactive design to reach there goals.
I'm not one to talk, but hopefully by the end of march I will be.
I understand lots of people are stifled in producing challenging
work all of the time. They have to earn money producing
top tool bar bottom tool bar crap just like I do for the less
imaginative corporates. I hope this makes some sense.
O.K. that elaboration of my post over.
Firstly just to here someone use the word movement in
a conversation on interactive design outside of
my MA is refreshing to say the least. I agree that amongst
the majority of flash and director users there may
be a inability to describe movements and actions.
I was taught on my MA was to use every medium
possible to look for concepts for which to apply to interactive
design, standing on the shoulders of giants and all that!
i.e. the terminology of time and space used in film theory.
This lack of terminology may be as a result of the amount
of print designers active in interactive design.
(The way I keep referring to print designers may seem
derogatory. I assure you they are not, my origins are
in print design. Graphic design is a large aspect of
interactive design, but still only an aspect not to be
concentrated on at the detriment of other elements).
"a system of rules that can be used to determine
if movement enhances the message or debilitates the message?"
This is a very good point too often elements of interactive design
is used "because one can" and not because it should be. This to
me is one of the worst aspects of current interactive design.
Could your comment be put another way.
That if movement is an innate part of a medium,
as it is with interactive media. Then lack of movement is
a quality of that movement. In the same way as silence is
a compositional element of music.
What you have said about the sound bite is also
interesting. I get constantly frustrated at the
amount of corporate clients that come to companies
with pages of content for a site that they also want
to have a mass appeal. I must admit things are
improving web specific content is on the increase
and being recognized as a speciality in itself.
Have you read imagologies. They heavily push
the need to communicate in sound bites. They
use baudrillardian concepts of the loss of ties
to referents.
I use the example of putting a companies product's
print promotion on a television advert. Interactive
media needs to be as a new "medium" or
forever remain a platform for other mediums.
too much?
Craigie J