LinuxCNC and BeagleBone Black - a road well travelled?

[Andrew Voelkel]

Hi,

I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch my router machine control from Mach3 on Windoze. He told me that people are using the PRU on the BBB to do the stepper motor control for LinuxCNC. That sounded attractive. 

(I have a Gecko motor driver. My system is 4 motors, but only because the x motor is mirrored.)

So I did a forum search here and it didn't really clear things up that much. It was pretty down in the weeds.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether using MachineKit LinuxCNC and the BBB with the PRU is standard fare or not. I have basically two choices as far as I can tell:

1. Use MachineKit and a BBB I have lying around, and the PRU as stepper control. Ride off into the sunset.
2. Use a Mesa 7i92 for stepper motor control and standard LinuxCNC instead of MachineKit, making sure that I have a realtime kernel installed one way or the other. I'd probably still use the BBB as my CPU.

Although I like the idea #1 above because it is a one board solution (and I save $89), the most important thing is that I choose the system that is easiest to set up and most reliable.

Does anyone have any opinions of which that might be? If both of these configurations are regularly used, then I'll go with BBB and PRU and MachineKit, since I can try it all out for the cost of my own time. But I value my time so I don't want to get too experimental.

Thanks for any help!!

[Rick Mann]

I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).

So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up and running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, and there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces in place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken priority (can't make room for the router until I finish that).

I'm fairly sure MachineKit and BBB is the right way to go. MachineKit seems to want a real-time Linux kernel even though I don't think it's necessary because of the PRUs. There's also this project which might be worth considering: <https://github.com/hzeller/beagleg>.

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--
Rick Mann
rm...@latencyzero.com

[Bas de Bruijn]

Hi Andrew,

On 28 Mar 2018, at 18:50, Andrew Voelkel <jandyman...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I was referred to the MachineKit group after discussing plans to switch my router machine control from Mach3 on Windoze. He told me that people are using the PRU on the BBB to do the stepper motor control for LinuxCNC. That sounded attractive. 

(I have a Gecko motor driver. My system is 4 motors, but only because the x motor is mirrored.)

So I did a forum search here and it didn't really clear things up that much. It was pretty down in the weeds.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether using MachineKit LinuxCNC and the BBB with the PRU is standard fare or not. I have basically two choices as far as I can tell:

1. Use MachineKit and a BBB I have lying around, and the PRU as stepper control. Ride off into the sunset.
2. Use a Mesa 7i92 for stepper motor control and standard LinuxCNC instead of MachineKit, making sure that I have a realtime kernel installed one way or the other. I'd probably still use the BBB as my CPU.

Yes, BBB with Machinekit is standard fare. There are images you can put on an SD.

Charles has made the pru_generic driver, and that basically means that step generation is done on the PRU.

If you use the BBB, you’d have to make sure you get proper isolation from the BBB pins to whatever you use down the line. It’s easy to fry a BBB. So only a PRU does not do the job. It’s the electronics coming after.

Am I correct that you want to run the 7i92 from the BBB? Although I personally have no experience with this setup.

You have to take into account that the BBB is not great when it comes to graphics, Axis is known to have problems when you have a lot of small segments. So if you want to have proper screens you could use a proper PC (which IMO are not very expensive).

Although I like the idea #1 above because it is a one board solution (and I save $89), the most important thing is that I choose the system that is easiest to set up and most reliable.

In that case (depending on your budget) I’d go for a PC with a mesanet card, like the 5i25_7i76

Or depending on your skills, do some level shifting and take care of the BBB pins to your drivers. Which should definitely be doable.

Does anyone have any opinions of which that might be? If both of these configurations are regularly used, then I'll go with BBB and PRU and MachineKit, since I can try it all out for the cost of my own time. But I value my time so I don't want to get too experimental.

Thanks for any help!!

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann <rm...@latencyzero.com> wrote:
>
> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
>
> So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up and running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, and there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces in place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken priority (can't make room for the router until I finish that).

Hi Rick,

Can you give an example where you find documentation lacking?
here’s a link on how to set up Machinekit.
http://www.machinekit.io/docs/getting-started/getting-started-platform/

>
> I'm fairly sure MachineKit and BBB is the right way to go. MachineKit seems to want a real-time Linux kernel even though I don't think it's necessary because of the PRUs. There's also this project which might be worth considering:

The PRU’s only do step generation. You basically want to have an RT kernel because you want to update the commanded position and read out the current position in a timely manner. RT preempt kernels are common enough not to have them build yourself. The Beagleboard has RT kernels.

[Andrew Voelkel]

Yes, BBB with Machinekit is standard fare. There are images you can put on an SD.

Charles has made the pru_generic driver, and that basically means that step generation is done on the PRU.

If you use the BBB, you’d have to make sure you get proper isolation from the BBB pins to whatever you use down the line. It’s easy to fry a BBB. So only a PRU does not do the job. It’s the electronics coming after.

I've been having trouble understanding this "isolation" issue, but your email may have given me a clue. The PRU lines are just internal board lines, not offboard I/O lines? Maybe even a level shifting problem? In any case an extra board changes the landscape. More below ... 

 

Am I correct that you want to run the 7i92 from the BBB? Although I personally have no experience with this setup.

You have to take into account that the BBB is not great when it comes to graphics, Axis is known to have problems when you have a lot of small segments. So if you want to have proper screens you could use a proper PC (which IMO are not very expensive).

People keep mentioning graphics on the BBB, but I am also having trouble understanding why that is a concern. I do the CAM on my main workstation (a Mac) and preview the machine paths there. So I really don't do any graphics in the machine control program.

Understanding my perspective requires knowing what I'm doing now. I've got an old laptop PC running Windows 10 and Mach3 with a Ethernet SmoothStepper hooked up to my Gecko. I'm attracted to Linux because of the bloat and constant updating in Windows. But at the end of the day I'm wanting to build parts. In order to turf Mach3 I've got two choices, LinuxCNC (or MachineKit) and UCCNC.

If I have to run an external PC and create an extra board to buffer the PRU, then why am I using a BBB at all? Why not just run a Mesa 7i92 instead for stepper control? And if I'm doing that, why am I using MachineKit instead of generic LinuxCNC with a real time kernel which supports ethernet? 

And if running ethernet is a road less travelled even with generic LinuxCNC, then I have to ask myself why I'm not just buying a UCCNC ethernet card for about a hundred bucks and using the UCCNC software which is 55 euros, and just tolerating Windows. One thing about that setup is that I know it will be up and working quickly.

It's frustrating because I like the idea of non-bloated Linux and an "embedded PC" which is part of the router and packaged that way, but I'm beginning to think it isn't worth the effort. 

Given my perspective, do you have any advice?

[Charles Steinkuehler]

On 3/29/2018 9:46 AM, Andrew Voelkel wrote:
>
>> Yes, BBB with Machinekit is standard fare. There are images you can put on
>> an SD.
>> Charles has made the pru_generic driver, and that basically means that
>> step generation is done on the PRU.
>>
>> If you use the BBB, you’d have to make sure you get proper isolation from
>> the BBB pins to whatever you use down the line. It’s easy to fry a BBB. So
>> only a PRU does not do the job. It’s the electronics coming after.
>
> I've been having trouble understanding this "isolation" issue, but your
> email may have given me a clue. The PRU lines are just internal board
> lines, not offboard I/O lines? Maybe even a level shifting problem? In any
> case an extra board changes the landscape. More below ...

All of the BBB digital I/O pins are only 3.3V and have fairly low
drive (typically 3 mA, it varies per pin). If any of the signals
*EVER* exceed 3.3V (which is easy to do with EMI in a large machine)
the CPU on the BBB will be destroyed.

How much buffering and isolation you need depends on your specific
machine and environment, but it's generally worth while to use a few
inexpensive 74' series buffer ICs to protect the BBB and get
additional drive (eg: 5V @ 25 mA for a 74ACT244 which costs about $0.25).

>> Am I correct that you want to run the 7i92 from the BBB? Although I
>> personally have no experience with this setup.
>>
>> You have to take into account that the BBB is not great when it comes to
>> graphics, Axis is known to have problems when you have a lot of small
>> segments. So if you want to have proper screens you could use a proper PC
>> (which IMO are not very expensive).
>>
>
> People keep mentioning graphics on the BBB, but I am also having trouble
> understanding why that is a concern. I do the CAM on my main workstation (a
> Mac) and preview the machine paths there. So I really don't do any graphics
> in the machine control program.

The BBB does not have (usable) 3D graphics acceleration, so the
preview window of the default Axis display is very sluggish on a BBB,
especially for complex parts (like 3D printed models). If you're OK
with not having the preview window displayed, the BBB graphics work
fine for the rest of the UI.

> Understanding my perspective requires knowing what I'm doing now. I've got
> an old laptop PC running Windows 10 and Mach3 with a Ethernet SmoothStepper
> hooked up to my Gecko. I'm attracted to Linux because of the bloat and
> constant updating in Windows. But at the end of the day I'm wanting to
> build parts. In order to turf Mach3 I've got two choices, LinuxCNC (or
> MachineKit) and UCCNC.
>
> If I have to run an external PC and create an extra board to buffer the
> PRU, then why am I using a BBB at all? Why not just run a Mesa 7i92 instead
> for stepper control? And if I'm doing that, why am I using MachineKit
> instead of generic LinuxCNC with a real time kernel which supports
> ethernet?

You wouldn't need an external PC. If the graphics on the BBB are not
to your liking, you can use a remote interface (typically an Android
tablet). Or you can switch from the BBB to a PC which has good
graphics and use Mesa hardware for the hard real-time signals.

> And if running ethernet is a road less travelled even with generic
> LinuxCNC, then I have to ask myself why I'm not just buying a UCCNC
> ethernet card for about a hundred bucks and using the UCCNC software which
> is 55 euros, and just tolerating Windows. One thing about that setup is
> that I know it will be up and working quickly.

There are lots of people using Ethernet with LCNC/Machinekit,
including the latest machines from Tormach (which currently use a 7i92
with a custom FPGA configuration).

> It's frustrating because I like the idea of non-bloated Linux and an
> "embedded PC" which is part of the router and packaged that way, but I'm
> beginning to think it isn't worth the effort.
>
> Given my perspective, do you have any advice?

If your machine needs Mesa hardware, I'd recommend using a standard PC
with either LCNC or Machinekit (of course we'd recommend Machinekit
here, but that choice is a whole different discussion!).

If you can get by with the BBB's limited graphics (or a remote UI on a
tablet) and buffering a few signals, the BBB is an inexpensive and
"non-bloated" solution.

--
Charles Steinkuehler
cha...@steinkuehler.net

[Andrew Voelkel]

After thinking about it, here's what I'm thinking I'll do. I'm going to abandon the BBB idea. It doesn't seem worth the time. I'll either end up with an ethernet system on Linux or an ethernet system on Windows, using a standard x86 CPU.

So I'm going to try running Linux on my existing CNC laptop from a bootable USB stick. That will enable me to try things out without zapping my Windows install. If that works, I'm up for getting the Mesa 7i92 and giving it a whirl. The cost of the Mesa is tiny compared to my time trying out something and having it not work, and then having to resinstall Windows.

But exactly what will I need then? Just getting an .iso and making a bootable USB stick and riding off into the sunset sounds great, but I'm not expecting anything that simple. Especially given posts I've seen on this forum and the necessity to have an appropriate real time kernel so I can run an ethernet interface.

I'm also interested in why MachineKit over LCNC. 

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR HELP!!

[Roderick Mann]

> On Mar 29, 2018, at 00:37 , Bas de Bruijn <b...@basdebruijn.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann <rm...@latencyzero.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
>>
>> So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up and running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, and there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces in place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken priority (can't make room for the router until I finish that).
>
> Hi Rick,
>
> Can you give an example where you find documentation lacking?
> here’s a link on how to set up Machinekit.
> http://www.machinekit.io/docs/getting-started/getting-started-platform/

So, here's just a small bit of how the documentation is lacking.

- There's no 30,000' view of how MachineKit is structured and runs. I'm vaguely aware via osmosis that there are some layers, and possibility for remote UI.

- The Getting Started/Setting up machinekit on a platform really just tells you how to get the software installed. Perfectly fine place to start, but then says nothing more.

- So, I try the next line in the list of Getting Started links: System Requirements. Well, that doesn't really help, and in fact adds confusion, since I'm doing this on a Beaglebone Black, which doesn't meet the minimum requirements. So I ignore that knowing people are successful with BBB.

- Next is Stepper Quickstart, which "assumes you have done a standard install from the Live CD," but the previous instructions make no mention of a Live CD. Okay, ignore that, it's clearly out of date.

- Latency Test. I can probably ignore this because I'm on BBB.

- Sherline & Xylotex. What? Okay, I know a Sherline is a brand of small mill/lathe. I google Xylotex to see what that is. Some kind of DIY CNC? Neither of these seems important to my setup, and certainly don't merit the same level in the outline of Stepper Quickstart as Latency Test or Machine Information.

- Machine Information. Okay, this looks like something to pay attention to. But wow, is this sparse, and does it presume a lot of MachineKit-specific knowledge. Good thing I know a fair bit about what it would take to implement this stuff from scratch, so I can infer some of this, but I feel already like some basic introductory material has been skipped.

(Note: these tables look like screen shots from a UI I have yet to experience. This is the 10th time I've looked at this page, and only now do I realize it's just a table showing the info I'm intended to gather. I think)

- Pinout Information: Talks about parallel port. Well, that's clearly not applicable.

- Mechanical Information: Okay, I don't really care about this stuff right now, I'm literally just trying to get one ClearPath stepper to work with my BBB setup as a proof of concept. Back to Getting Started list.

- Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than anything else so far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does that mean I can't use it on BBB? Not sure. But I still don't know how to even get to this. Maybe the item "Running MachineKit" I saw further down the list is helpful. Not sure why it wasn't the first thing after installation.

- Mesa Configuration Wizard: Okay, I own a Tormach, so I know what "Mesa" probably means, I'm gonna skip this one.

- Running Machinekit: Hey! Figured out how to run mk. Okay, I see there is a pru_examples option in the configuration UI that pops up. There's no information displayed with it, but let's choose it. It offers to copy it to my home dir, then restarts machinekit. I see a splash screen, then it all ends with some errors.

I'll write another post about those errors, but that's my initial feedback on the state of the docs. I hope it helps.

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 3 Apr 2018, at 06:54, Roderick Mann <rm...@latencyzero.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 00:37 , Bas de Bruijn <b...@basdebruijn.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann <rm...@latencyzero.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
>>>
>>> So far, I have not had any success figuring out how to get MachineKit up and running. I also haven't tried that hard, but it's really non-obvious, and there are huge gaps in the documentation. I finally have enough pieces in place to try this in earnest, but my shop office buildout has taken priority (can't make room for the router until I finish that).
>>
>> Hi Rick,
>>
>> Can you give an example where you find documentation lacking?
>> here’s a link on how to set up Machinekit.
>> http://www.machinekit.io/docs/getting-started/getting-started-platform/
>
> So, here's just a small bit of how the documentation is lacking.
>
> - There's no 30,000' view of how MachineKit is structured and runs. I'm vaguely aware via osmosis that there are some layers, and possibility for remote UI.

It's there. Legacy linuxcnc CNC stack but outdated

> - The Getting Started/Setting up machinekit on a platform really just tells you how to get the software installed. Perfectly fine place to start, but then says nothing more.
>
> - So, I try the next line in the list of Getting Started links: System Requirements. Well, that doesn't really help, and in fact adds confusion, since I'm doing this on a Beaglebone Black, which doesn't meet the minimum requirements. So I ignore that knowing people are successful with BBB.

Outdated, we're looking forward for any PR

> - Next is Stepper Quickstart, which "assumes you have done a standard install from the Live CD," but the previous instructions make no mention of a Live CD. Okay, ignore that, it's clearly out of date.

Indeed, Outdated, we're looking forward for any PR

> - Latency Test. I can probably ignore this because I'm on BBB.

Should work

> - Sherline & Xylotex. What? Okay, I know a Sherline is a brand of small mill/lathe. I google Xylotex to see what that is. Some kind of DIY CNC? Neither of these seems important to my setup, and certainly don't merit the same level in the outline of Stepper Quickstart as Latency Test or Machine Information.
>
> - Machine Information. Okay, this looks like something to pay attention to. But wow, is this sparse, and does it presume a lot of MachineKit-specific knowledge. Good thing I know a fair bit about what it would take to implement this stuff from scratch, so I can infer some of this, but I feel already like some basic introductory material has been skipped.
>
> (Note: these tables look like screen shots from a UI I have yet to experience. This is the 10th time I've looked at this page, and only now do I realize it's just a table showing the info I'm intended to gather. I think)
>
> - Pinout Information: Talks about parallel port. Well, that's clearly not applicable.
>
> - Mechanical Information: Okay, I don't really care about this stuff right now, I'm literally just trying to get one ClearPath stepper to work with my BBB setup as a proof of concept. Back to Getting Started list.
>
> - Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than anything else so far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does that mean I can't use it on BBB?

Yes, the BBB does not have a parallel port. Machinekit is not a beaglebone project. So there will always be options not applicable to your hardware

> Not sure. But I still don't know how to even get to this. Maybe the item "Running MachineKit" I saw further down the list is helpful. Not sure why it wasn't the first thing after installation.
>
> - Mesa Configuration Wizard: Okay, I own a Tormach, so I know what "Mesa" probably means, I'm gonna skip this one.
>
> - Running Machinekit: Hey! Figured out how to run mk. Okay, I see there is a pru_examples option in the configuration UI that pops up. There's no information displayed with it, but let's choose it. It offers to copy it to my home dir, then restarts machinekit. I see a splash screen, then it all ends with some errors.
>
> I'll write another post about those errors, but that's my initial feedback on the state of the docs. I hope it helps.

Thank you for your feedback.

Documentation contains the legacy linuxcnc documentation and in some/a lot of cases is outdated. And yes, structure can be improved.

However there is a lot of documentation. And it's findable.

Developers always have good intentions regarding documentation but I've learned that it will very rarely be done. Machinekit has a lot of changes wrt Linuxcnc and are not always documented.

Personally I have made various attempts at getting documentation into better shape regarding structure and I've given up on some parts. I'm mildly interested in CNC so I'm not feeling inclined to spend a lot of my free time on that (having the experience that users themselves don't read/investigate docs before or during going head-first into this project)

Previous years there's been a lot of effort put in making documentation easier to change/update. But someone still has to spend time on that.

Bas

[schoo...@btinternet.com]

>>>> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann <rm...@latencyzero.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).

The big problem to get across is that Machinekit is nothing to do with BBB.

The fact that you can get a BBB to work with Machinekit and 'X'
hardware, does not mean it is the desirable or optimum choice.

For the money you spent on a cape and BBB, you could buy an ex-corporate
dual core pentium computer and a Mesa card and have a setup which is 50
times more capable
and far easier to configure and work with.

>>>> - Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than anything else so far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does that mean I can't use it on BBB?
> Yes, the BBB does not have a parallel port. Machinekit is not a beaglebone project. So there will always be options not applicable to your hardware
>

The documentation is legacy Linuxcnc, which was rtai kernel and parport
or rt-preempt kernel and hardware FPGA cards only.
Where the docs diverge to include machinekit only areas, depends wholly
upon people writing them and submitting them for general usage.

It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal
exceptions) who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack of
detailed personalised instructions for their
hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to contribute
anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that path.

If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted.

[Rick Mann]

> On Apr 4, 2018, at 08:41 , 'schoo...@btinternet.com' via Machinekit <machi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>> On 28 Mar 2018, at 22:02, Rick Mann <rm...@latencyzero.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just starting on building a CNC router using MachineKit and a BBB. You'll still need a board of some kind, if for no other reason than to isolate the BBB from the rest of your system. I bought an OPTOCAPE ($165) to experiment with, but I will be designing and building my own board at the same time (mostly because I want all the right connectors on it).
>
> The big problem to get across is that Machinekit is nothing to do with BBB.
>
> The fact that you can get a BBB to work with Machinekit and 'X' hardware, does not mean it is the desirable or optimum choice.
>
> For the money you spent on a cape and BBB, you could buy an ex-corporate dual core pentium computer and a Mesa card and have a setup which is 50 times more capable
> and far easier to configure and work with.

I have my reasons for choosing a Beagelbone Black, but I will likely move to the Beaglebone X-15 when my system design is more refined. And I will be creating a board for it.

>
>>>>> - Stepper Configuration Wizard: Better introductory information than anything else so far, but says it's for "standard parallel port." Does that mean I can't use it on BBB?
>> Yes, the BBB does not have a parallel port. Machinekit is not a beaglebone project. So there will always be options not applicable to your hardware
>>
>
> The documentation is legacy Linuxcnc, which was rtai kernel and parport or rt-preempt kernel and hardware FPGA cards only.
> Where the docs diverge to include machinekit only areas, depends wholly upon people writing them and submitting them for general usage.
>
> It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal exceptions) who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack of detailed personalised instructions for their
> hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to contribute anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that path.
>
> If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted.

I'd be happy to, when I understand enough about this to contribute something useful. I still barely know what's going on with MachineKit.

FWIW, I posted what I have so far, but this is NOT to the standard I would expect of actual docs. This is more so I don't forget what I was doing. https://jetforme.org/2018/04/machinekit-on-bbb/

Beaglebone specifics notwithstanding, the documentation is still lacking. Your explanation is the same one given by every open source project that lacks documentation. No one wants to do it (some, like swift.org, are excellent, but it's backed by an organization with deep pockets and it pays people to work on it). But that doesn't change the fact that it's lacking.

[Chris Albertson]

On

> Beaglebone specifics notwithstanding, the documentation is still lacking. Your explanation is the same one given by every open source project that lacks documentation. No one wants to do it (some, like swift.org, are excellent, but it's backed by an organization with deep pockets and it pays people to work on it). But that doesn't change the fact that it's lacking.

Yes, I notice the same trend. The open source projects that have
actual budgets and corporate funding tend to have better
documentation.

One thing that might help is to lower the barrier to contributors.
Put the docs on a Wiki.


--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 5 Apr 2018, at 00:37, Chris Albertson <alberts...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One thing that might help is to lower the barrier to contributors.
> Put the docs on a Wiki.

We have in fact a very low barrier. There's an "edit me" link for directly editing a page.

Putting docs on a wiki is not a solution. It's just another format which is structureless.

And it should be maintained as well. And that is the core problem.

[Rob M]

I found it pretty simple to setup my BBB to run my 3 axis mill, designed some buffer boards got them working even built a simple USB pendant. The PRU is what swung me over to the BBB.

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 5 Apr 2018, at 07:36, Chris Albertson <alberts...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Whatever the current policy is, it has resulted in the
> current state of the documents.

No. Devs not documenting first place and the general lack of manpower are the cause.

[Bas de Bruijn]

> On 5 Apr 2018, at 07:36, Chris Albertson <alberts...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> But I know one thing, If I see a small error I'm not going to bother
> to fork a repository, edit the files and make a pull request, all the
> correct a typo. I'd bet the most users don't much understand what
> any of that is all about. They are machinists, not software
> developers.

Try it out first time before forming this opinion. Then do it a second time to verify if it indeed is so hard.

If you "don't want to bother", then don't.

You don't have to be a dev to correct a typo, and if you are able to install Linux then creating a github account and push the "edit this page" link is easy.

[fishy]

On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 16:41:46 UTC+1, Schooner wrote:

It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal
exceptions) who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack of
detailed personalised instructions for their
hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to contribute
anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that path.

If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted.

I am not sure if that is what was described by "tragedy of the commons" ?

I guess most open source projects get less than 1% of users actually contributing something back to the project?

I wonder if some autodoc system could be made to force people to contribute in order to get support from a real person? :lol

Unfortunately 99% of people are here to get free cnc software installed for zero cost, they are not interested in playing with software development as a hobby.

As a start does machinekit have a easy access wiki system? (http://www.machinekit.io/community/contributing/)

Of course this forum may not be the best place to find linuxcnc help, as it is actually  here for discussion of machinekit, so maybe the original poster should start by updating the wiki (http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?BeagleBone) with all the information they have used and the steps they took to install machinekit on the beaglebone.  Then maybe some of the experts here could take time away from their most important work to review and analyse the problem?

[schoo...@btinternet.com]

On 05/04/18 10:07, 'fishy' via Machinekit wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 16:41:46 UTC+1, Schooner wrote:

It is a community project, but thus far everyone (with minimal
exceptions) who has stood where you are and bemoaned the lack of
detailed personalised instructions for their
hardware combination of choice, has subsequently failed to contribute
anything to make it easier for the next person to tread that path.

If you were to break that trend, I would be delighted.

I am not sure if that is what was described by "tragedy of the commons" ?

I think it is, certainly it is a common trend.

I guess most open source projects get less than 1% of users actually contributing something back to the project?

I wonder if some autodoc system could be made to force people to contribute in order to get support from a real person? :lol

Unfortunately 99% of people are here to get free cnc software installed for zero cost, they are not interested in playing with software development as a hobby.

Yes and as someone who would not touch Microsoft or Apple with a bargepole, it does gall somewhat.

As a start does machinekit have a easy access wiki system? (http://www.machinekit.io/community/contributing/)

Wiki's unfortunately are for people who commit a mind dump to a page and then move on, leaving it orphaned and unmaintained.

Linuxcnc's documentation is full of wikis which refer to Ubuntu Hardy and other long since deceased distros and you pretty
much need to know enough not to need the wiki in the first place, to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Of course this forum may not be the best place to find linuxcnc help, as it is actually  here for discussion of machinekit, so maybe the original poster should start by updating the wiki (http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?BeagleBone) with all the information they have used and the steps they took to install machinekit on the beaglebone.  Then maybe some of the experts here could take time away from their most important work to review and analyse the problem?

If you read the wiki, it was originally largely written by Michael Haberler, before he left Linuxcnc to found Machinekit.
It is well out of date.

It was the refusal of Linuxcnc to incorporate changes that would allow ARM boards to run Xenomai and rt-preempt kernels so as to make the use of an ARM board
possible, amongst many other changes, that led to the split and fork to Machinekit.
They have since seamlessly incorporated some of the changes, as if they had come up with them ;-)

If someone has something to contribute and refuses to use the tools provided because some perceived difficulty or other bias, I don't care.

If they create a wiki and provide a link to it, we can cut and paste the text into a proper asciidoc and incorporate it into the website.
When they move to other things, the wiki will wither and die from lack of relevance and maintenance, but we will have a document that could be updated as required.

There's the challenge, Word document, wiki, compilation cut and paste from a number of forum posts (all of which can be searched from the website anyway),
or any other format.

If it is of use we will use it.