LXNAV HAWK Real-time wind calculation

[Tom Seim]

LXNAV has recently introduced the HAWK real-time wind calculation, which is based on advanced Kalman digital filters:

https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/hawk-wind-calculation/

This announcement references an article in Segelfliegen Magazine, but it is German. Unable to find an English version, I translated it and attached is the translation.

[Bob]

Thanks for taking the time to translate and sharing. Interesting read.  

[Jeffrey Resnik]

Details on the system / algorithm are also reviewed in the recently updated S10 manual (Section 7) available on the LXNAV website.

Jeff

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lxnav-user-gro...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/fcd6dbd3-7723-4cc5-98d6-cfabed9ec3cbn%40googlegroups.com.

[the_gle...@msn.com]

" . ours solution, HAWK, estimates threedimensional air mass movement and delivers so that a wind measurement (x- and y component) as well as the additional vertical z-component: a vario display. HAWK runs on LXNAV's S10/S100 platforms and will be based on the LX-9000 devices."

Are they saying that this instrumentation and algorithm is what is used in both S10 and LX 90X0 devices today?

Do people have both instant and average wind displayed? Does the instant wind seem to give a good result? I have both displayed on my LX 9000, but flying in the flatlands I rarely see a significant difference.

[cdeerinck]

I show both on my 9070, and they do show different winds a decent amount of the time.

As far as how accurate they are, I don't have a way to measure that.

[jsea...@comcast.net]

Ok, so does this HAWK business mean a better vario with less gust sensitivity as well as instant wind?

John Seaborn

Sent from iPhone

 

---

From: lxnav-us...@googlegroups.com <lxnav-us...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of cdeerinck <chuck.d...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:15 PM
To: LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [LXNAV-user-group] LXNAV HAWK Real-time wind calculation

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/f162270e-f616-4aad-9f9e-040235cfb192n%40googlegroups.com.

[Adam Webb]

No sign of an option for the S8/80 range. My understanding is that the S8 and S10 have the same hardware when it comes to inertial sensors, so should be possible in either? 

[Walter Rogers]

Am I the only S100 user on this list? Sometimes it seems like it.

I just started flying with an S100 in my Discus 2a. Actually, my
preference was to get the Air Avionics "Butterfly" Display S with ISU...
because it had fantastic detailed wind readouts. But, when they dropped
support I settled on the S100.

Am excited to try out the HAWK v8.0 beta update on my S100 just for the
horizontal winds alone. Out here in the West U.S.... shear lines,
convergence and flows in the mountains cause lots of variance of winds.
My friends who fly with a Butterfly are very impressed with their
ability to detect these convergence lines.

But... I'm a bit concerned about the stability of this "beta" for use of
my S100 in a Nationals coming up in June. I asked LXNAV about this and
got a reply from Uros... "Basically we strive to release stable
firmwares. If we will find any problems, we will make new release. You
can do any time downgrade to version 7.1"

Has anyone successfully downgraded firmware on the S100? I don't see any
mention of this in the user manual. What about the LX 90xx's... can they
be downgraded?

What would you do before a National competition? ... Fly with the v8.0
beta for a month... then downgrade if there are any problems? Just
trying to avoid the complications of being a "beta tester".

HAWK looks like it would help a lot with detailed wind patterns in the
Western U.S.

Walt Rogers WX

On 4/13/2021 4:31 PM, jsea...@comcast.net wrote:
> Ok, so does this HAWK business mean a better vario with less gust
> sensitivity as well as instant wind?
>
> John Seaborn
>
> Sent from iPhone

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* lxnav-us...@googlegroups.com

> <lxnav-us...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of cdeerinck
> <chuck.d...@gmail.com>

> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:15 PM
> *To:* LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group
> *Subject:* Re: [LXNAV-user-group] LXNAV HAWK Real-time wind calculation

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/fcd6dbd3-7723-4cc5-98d6-cfabed9ec3cbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to lxnav-user-gro...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:lxnav-user-gro...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/f162270e-f616-4aad-9f9e-040235cfb192n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/f162270e-f616-4aad-9f9e-040235cfb192n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to lxnav-user-gro...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:lxnav-user-gro...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/3DB3D922-8BAF-854B-8DDA-B46F59729178%40hxcore.ol
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/3DB3D922-8BAF-854B-8DDA-B46F59729178%40hxcore.ol?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[*Eric Greenwell1*]

Yes, that is my understanding. The vario can be configured with the TE (pressure operated) needle that we use now, plus an additional needle to display the Hawk's calculated climb rate. The Hawk's needle will not show the horizontal gusts because it isn't using the pitot or static pressures. Another indicator on the vario shows the wind.

Eric

[the_gle...@msn.com]

This on the LXNav website answers some of my questions:

"HAWK is a software option, which is planned to be released in spring 2021 (for S10 and S100 vario) and late autumn 2021 (for LX80/90xx series)"

It will be great news if LXNav catch up with Butterfly/Air Avionics on calculation of instant wind.

[jpg...@gmail.com]

Anyone with any experience of the Hawk yet?   Waiting for it to be available for 90** series too.

John

[the_gle...@msn.com]

A friend set it up on his S10 today. He also has a 9070 running the existing firmware, and previously they had exactly the same setup, so he should be able to report on the difference quite soon.

[tango....@gmail.com]

All,

I flew with Hawk demo license on my S100 2 days ago. The S100 dual needle functionality with new FW and the hawk demo license is really good. Best I've flown with.

Wind appeared accurate with very fast real time updates. 

There was no documentation about the readouts, but it appears the new wind page reads a longer term average vector  and a short term dynamic vector. The small relative direction wind arrow on the WPT and TSK pages is also updated real time which I like a lot.

Big issue is that with my demo license the artificial horizon was also enabled! So if you want to fly the demo at a US contest, DONT.

Fortunately my one month license runs out before Minden or I'd be worried about removing the license somehow.

I dont know why they bundled the horizon together with this, the horizon seems to work OK but I didnt spend any cycles on it.

Also, I have no idea how much they would charge for a Hawk licence upgrade. They need to separate it from the AHRS function.

Hope this helps.

Peter Deane (2T)

[John Seaborn]

Peter,

 

Good intel on HAWK. How did the vario perform as a vario? Compensation, sensitivity, the seat-of-pants, yank and bank, turn now kind of thing. I expect the HAWK-enabled vario will still show the normal average climbs and other configurations that LXNAV enables on the screens. (?)  

 

I asked about the cost of the license and was told over 900 Euro but expect this was with the artificial horizon enabled. Your results may vary disclaimer.

 

John Seaborn (A8)

 

 

From: lxnav-us...@googlegroups.com <lxnav-us...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of tango....@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2021 10:51 AM
To: LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group <lxnav-us...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [LXNAV-user-group] LXNAV HAWK Real-time wind calculation

 

All,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/d57c7190-836e-47ea-82e6-33e12eae1e7en%40googlegroups.com.

[tango....@gmail.com]

John,

Yes the vario continued to work well based on the original filter settings.

There are other settings now to adjust but I left the vario filters as is. 

I do like the dual needle function (shows TE and one other - I used netto )

I need to fly with the unit in this configuration more - 

The TE continued to agree very well with seat-of-the-pants - The netto function led the TE well going into rising air but seemed to do some wierd stuff while turn/climbing into the lift before settling down and reading as expected in steady state climb.

This could have been due to the way I have the vario set up for switching cruise to climb, so more experience needed there.

2T

[Walter Rogers]

Likewise... good report on HAWK. Peter. I'm planning to fly my S100 next
week with the v8.0 beta after a comment from Uros at LXNAV that the beta
is stable. He says it can easily be reverted back to v7.10.

I too will be flying a Nationals in late June so will have to remove the
beta if it includes AHRS. Hoping that the license can split off AHRS.
Also concerned about the cost of this HAWK enhancement.

Walt Rogers WX

[Eric Greenwell]

Has anyone asked if the Hawk AHRS can be disabled for contest period the same
way as the current AHRS? As for cost, the current AHRS license price is $860, so
900eu for Hawk and AHRS implies the Hawk price is ~$240; regardless of how they
allocate the price of each, I think 900eu for both is reasonable, as I really
want to have the fast wind like my Butterfly vario. I think the current systems
need the $560 compass to get "fast" wind, so there's a cost saving because you
don't need that.

Eric

[Marc Arnold]

I’ve had the compass option for a couple seasons and have never been able to get fast/accurate wind results. This seems to be a known problem. Looking forward to HAWK. Marc

> On Apr 28, 2021, at 2:22 PM, Eric Greenwell <engre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Has anyone asked if the Hawk AHRS can be disabled for contest period the same way as the current AHRS? As for cost, the current AHRS license price is $860, so 900eu for Hawk and AHRS implies the Hawk price is ~$240; regardless of how they allocate the price of each, I think 900eu for both is reasonable, as I really want to have the fast wind like my Butterfly vario. I think the current systems need the $560 compass to get "fast" wind, so there's a cost saving because you don't need that.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lxnav-user-gro...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/8ae81717-ed0b-1c64-5fbc-c5cf0ee9e062%40gmail.com.

[Dave Springford]

The Hawk option for the S10/100 is priced at 990 Euro.  The AHRS is included, because the Hawk algorithm needs to use all the values derived from the AHRS system to do its thing.

It may be possible for LX to use the AHRS values while disabling the AHRS page and then maybe a Hawk lite version can be had for less $, but for now, it is 990 Euro and you also get AHRS.

This is a lot cheaper and easier than buying a Butterfly vario and installing it! 

[Marc Arnold]

Any word yet if the HAWK option will be priced differently for those of us who already have the AHRS option?

[Toni Šibanc]

Hi all,

The AHRS can be locked and you can use the HAWK during the contest. 

It is all written in the manual on page 77 -> S8x-S10xManualEnglishVer800rev38.pdf (lxnav.com)

Have a great day, Toni

[jpg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 29 April 2021 at 00:00:52 UTC+1 Marc Arnold wrote:

Any word yet if the HAWK option will be priced differently for those of us who already have the AHRS option?

+1 for that question

[Jim Staniforth]

+2

[Doug Easton]

+3

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "LXNav Soaring Glider Equipment User Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lxnav-user-gro...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxnav-user-group/94506015-795f-49c8-bfc0-04db752deb85n%40googlegroups.com.