Russia's Chat Log

[William Ryan]

11:22 AM	(To: Global, from Germany) - Well done turkey. Are we going to go back over this on LW? I don't think much actual formal game theory was used, but discussing the game could still prove interesting.
Tue 03 PM	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Aside from potential center shuffle in Brest, only one question remains: Will Italy survive?
Tue 03 PM	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Reminder to all: I will be publishing my full communication logs at the conclusion of the game, and encourage others to do the same. If there is anything you wish me to censor (so far no one has requested anything) please say so before the conclusion of the game.
Tue 02 PM	(To: Global, from Turkey) - ...and that's game. Moscow supports Ukr-War, Gal-Vie, Vie-Tri, Rom S Ven, Ion-Nap and the eastern 17 are safe plus Portugal means 18. Good game, everyone!
Tue 11 AM	(To: Global, from you) - Spring, 1908: Aw shucks, France really did cooperate! I admit I did not expect that to happen given our previous interactions, but I am glad that the desire to win won out, so to speak. I figured France would defect, Turkey's victory was guaranteed, and that I would get the highest ending score by taking as many SCs as possible this turn. Good game guys. This has been eating my life and I am VERY eager to move on.
Mon 10 PM	(To: You, from France) - Spring, 1908: OK, done.
Mon 05 PM	(To: Global, from you) - Spring, 1908: Best of luck to you, Turkey!
Mon 05 PM	(To: Global, from you) - Spring, 1908: Okay, the moves for this turn are finalized. Russia: StP-Bar, Gal-Ukr, Tyr-Boh, Mun-Sil, Kie-Ber, Hol-Hel, Ruh-Mun, Par H. England: Nor-StP, Den-Bal, Lon-Yor, Eng S Bre-Mid, Gas S Gul-Spa France: Mar-Pie, Bur-Mar, Bel-Pic, Bre-Mid Italy: Gul-Spa
Mon 05 PM	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1908: Nope. I've tried it in games past. It doesn't work. Bouncing causes the territory to be considered occupied for the purposes of retreats.
Mon 04 PM	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1908: I can't seem to send the message inside GTalk, so: Coasts don't matter for support actions.
Mon 03 PM	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: Okay, so, I don't think Gas can support Italy into the SOUTH coast of Spain, which means we need to make some changes: Mar S Gul-Spa, Bre S Gas-Mid, Eng-Iri, Nor-Eng, Hol-Nor. That keeps Turkey out of Irish Sea and English Channel, forces him to retreat to NAO or Portugal. My fleet can then convoy Yor-Den next turn (should probably double-check the rules on this), or move to Norwegian Sea to contain, depending on the situation. Par-Gas, Bur-Par, to take back the SC and get my army in position to support Spa or Mar. Bel-Ruh, France can then move the army to the front, or take my SC in Hol next turn, depending on whether my northern fleet will be useful or not. Let's check those rules, and make sure I'm not making a mistake anywhere. What if he goes MAO-Irish and bounces the fleet, can he then retreat into Irish anyway?
Mon 03 PM	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: Okay, so, I don't think Gas can support Italy into the SOUTH coast of Spain, which means we need to make some changes: Mar S Gul-Spa, Bre S Gas-Mid, Eng-Iri, Nor-Eng, Hol-Nor. That keeps Turkey out of Irish Sea and English Channel, forces him to retreat to NAO or Portugal. My fleet can then convoy Yor-Den next turn (should probably double-check the rules on this), or move to Norwegian Sea to contain, depending on the situation. Par-Gas, Bur-Par, to take back the SC and get my army in position to support Spa or Mar. Bel-Ruh, France can then move the army to the front, or take my SC in Hol next turn, depending on whether my northern fleet will be useful or not. Let's check those rules, and make sure I'm not making a mistake anywhere. What if he goes MAO-Irish and bounces the fleet, can he then retreat into Irish anyway?
Mon 03 PM	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: Okay, so, I don't think Gas can support Italy into the SOUTH coast of Spain, which means we need to make some changes: Mar S Gul-Spa, Bre S Gas-Mid, Eng-Iri, Nor-Eng, Hol-Nor. That keeps Turkey out of Irish Sea and English Channel, forces him to retreat to NAO or Portugal. My fleet can then convoy Yor-Den next turn (should probably double-check the rules on this), or move to Norwegian Sea to contain, depending on the situation. Par-Gas, Bur-Par, to take back the SC and get my army in position to support Spa or Mar. Bel-Ruh, France can then move the army to the front, or take my SC in Hol next turn, depending on whether my northern fleet will be useful or not. Let's check those rules, and make sure I'm not making a mistake anywhere. What if he goes MAO-Irish and bounces the fleet, can he then retreat into Irish anyway?
Mon 02 PM	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1908: Hey England, can Gas actually support Italy into the SOUTH coast of Spain? Please see if that is an option for you. If not, then we have to use Mar to support, which would be a shame. It would allow you to bounce in Irish Sea, however, and still have Bre and Gas support into MAO...
Mon 02 PM	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: FYI, just in case something weird happens where I keep an extra SC for some reason, I am now moving Hol-Hel instead. That way I could potentially keep a fleet up north, to help England convoy across North Sea while he kills off the northern Turkish fleet.
Mon 02 PM	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: FYI, just in case something weird happens where I keep an extra SC for some reason, I am now moving Hol-Hel instead. That way I could potentially keep a fleet up north, to help England convoy across North Sea while he kills off the northern Turkish fleet.
Mon 02 PM	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: FYI, just in case something weird happens where I keep an extra SC for some reason, I am now moving Hol-Hel instead. That way I could potentially keep a fleet up north, to help England convoy across North Sea while he kills off the northern Turkish fleet.
Mon 02 PM	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: I just realized that MAO could move to Irish Sea, shit. That puts Lvp at risk, plus he could still potentially cut MAO's support into Portugal if he so chooses. We should move Lon-Yor, to potentially guard Lvp and optionally still convoy into Den next turn. That means one less army in the north, but it can defend Lvp and Edi both against a fleet behind the lines. We should be able to hold StP and War without that extra army from England, but we can't make progress against Moscow immediately, and we have to get the convoy chain going after this year's builds. Even if we move Eng-Iri to potentially bounce, he can still retreat to NAO, and harass Scandinavia the following year, plus that means Mar has to support into Spain instead of moving to Pie... Long run, that fleet behind the lines will allow him to make progress in the north, if we don't find a way to contain and destroy it. Depending on how things play out, England might want to build another fleet next turn, to force Turkey's fleet into a disband the following year.
Mon 02 PM	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: I just realized that MAO could move to Irish Sea, shit. That puts Lvp at risk, plus he could still potentially cut MAO's support into Portugal if he so chooses. We should move Lon-Yor, to potentially guard Lvp and optionally still convoy into Den next turn. That means one less army in the north, but it can defend Lvp and Edi both against a fleet behind the lines. We should be able to hold StP and War without that extra army from England, but we can't make progress against Moscow immediately, and we have to get the convoy chain going after this year's builds. Even if we move Eng-Iri to potentially bounce, he can still retreat to NAO, and harass Scandinavia the following year, plus that means Mar has to support into Spain instead of moving to Pie... Long run, that fleet behind the lines will allow him to make progress in the north, if we don't find a way to contain and destroy it. Depending on how things play out, England might want to build another fleet next turn, to force Turkey's fleet into a disband the following year.
Mon 02 PM	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1908: To Italy, France and England: I just realized that MAO could move to Irish Sea, shit. That puts Lvp at risk, plus he could still potentially cut MAO's support into Portugal if he so chooses. We should move Lon-Yor, to potentially guard Lvp and optionally still convoy into Den next turn. That means one less army in the north, but it can defend Lvp and Edi both against a fleet behind the lines. We should be able to hold StP and War without that extra army from England, but we can't make progress against Moscow immediately, and we have to get the convoy chain going after this year's builds. Even if we move Eng-Iri to potentially bounce, he can still retreat to NAO, and harass Scandinavia the following year, plus that means Mar has to support into Spain instead of moving to Pie... Long run, that fleet behind the lines will allow him to make progress in the north, if we don't find a way to contain and destroy it. Depending on how things play out, England might want to build another fleet next turn, to force Turkey's fleet into a disband the following year.
Mon 10 AM	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1908: This is going to Italy, France and England: We only have one chance to get a five-way draw instead of an outright Turkish victory. My moves are StP-Bar, Gal-Ukr, Tyr-Boh, Mun-Sil, Kie-Ber, Hol-Kie, Ruh-Mun, Par H. England should go Nor-StP, Den-Bal, Nor C Lon-Den. France goes Mar-Pie, Bur-Mar, Bel-Pic. Either Mar bounces, in which case Pic and Bur support into Paris to disband my army, or the move succeeds and next turn I move Par-Bur. France keeps 4 SCs. The three of you combined go Eng S Bre-Mid, Gas S Gul-Spa. That keeps Italy alive and removes 1 SC from Turkey. Turkey takes Mos, Nap, Por, and we hold him at 17. With perfect play I don't think we can also take Portugal, unless Italy is willing to sacrifice himself (which defeats the purpose of the deal), but maybe it is possible: next turn definitely Mid S Spa-Por, and maybe Gas S Mar-Spa depending on Turkey's moves this turn. I will keep 4 SCs (Warsaw + Germany), to keep my four armies alive on the eastern front. StP goes to England, and next turn he moves Eng-Hol, to build armies in Lon and Edi. France gets Paris, loses Portugal, stays at 4 SCs (unless Mar-Spa succeeds and that leaves Mar open for a fleet build!). For the following year of builds, England and France can trade SCs as needed in order to remove extraneous fleets and build fleets and armies in the right locations.
Mon 10 AM	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1908: This is going to Italy, France and England: We only have one chance to get a five-way draw instead of an outright Turkish victory. My moves are StP-Bar, Gal-Ukr, Tyr-Boh, Mun-Sil, Kie-Ber, Hol-Kie, Ruh-Mun, Par H. England should go Nor-StP, Den-Bal, Nor C Lon-Den. France goes Mar-Pie, Bur-Mar, Bel-Pic. Either Mar bounces, in which case Pic and Bur support into Paris to disband my army, or the move succeeds and next turn I move Par-Bur. France keeps 4 SCs. The three of you combined go Eng S Bre-Mid, Gas S Gul-Spa. That keeps Italy alive and removes 1 SC from Turkey. Turkey takes Mos, Nap, Por, and we hold him at 17. With perfect play I don't think we can also take Portugal, unless Italy is willing to sacrifice himself (which defeats the purpose of the deal), but maybe it is possible: next turn definitely Mid S Spa-Por, and maybe Gas S Mar-Spa depending on Turkey's moves this turn. I will keep 4 SCs (Warsaw + Germany), to keep my four armies alive on the eastern front. StP goes to England, and next turn he moves Eng-Hol, to build armies in Lon and Edi. France gets Paris, loses Portugal, stays at 4 SCs (unless Mar-Spa succeeds and that leaves Mar open for a fleet build!). For the following year of builds, England and France can trade SCs as needed in order to remove extraneous fleets and build fleets and armies in the right locations.
Mon 10 AM	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1908: This is going to Italy, France and England: We only have one chance to get a five-way draw instead of an outright Turkish victory. My moves are StP-Bar, Gal-Ukr, Tyr-Boh, Mun-Sil, Kie-Ber, Hol-Kie, Ruh-Mun, Par H. England should go Nor-StP, Den-Bal, Nor C Lon-Den. France goes Mar-Pie, Bur-Mar, Bel-Pic. Either Mar bounces, in which case Pic and Bur support into Paris to disband my army, or the move succeeds and next turn I move Par-Bur. France keeps 4 SCs. The three of you combined go Eng S Bre-Mid, Gas S Gul-Spa. That keeps Italy alive and removes 1 SC from Turkey. Turkey takes Mos, Nap, Por, and we hold him at 17. With perfect play I don't think we can also take Portugal, unless Italy is willing to sacrifice himself (which defeats the purpose of the deal), but maybe it is possible: next turn definitely Mid S Spa-Por, and maybe Gas S Mar-Spa depending on Turkey's moves this turn. I will keep 4 SCs (Warsaw + Germany), to keep my four armies alive on the eastern front. StP goes to England, and next turn he moves Eng-Hol, to build armies in Lon and Edi. France gets Paris, loses Portugal, stays at 4 SCs (unless Mar-Spa succeeds and that leaves Mar open for a fleet build!). For the following year of builds, England and France can trade SCs as needed in order to remove extraneous fleets and build fleets and armies in the right locations.
Sun 11 PM	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Disband Bur. Naples will be taken, so Italy will accept survival in a draw over defeat and work with us. Gas + Mar S Gul-Spa, and Bre S Eng-Mid. We can keep Turkey at or below 17 supply centers and hold him to a draw.
Sun 11 PM	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Going StP-Bar, Kie-Ber, Hol-Kie, Gal D Tyr-Vie, Mun-Sil, Ruh-Mun.
Sun 11 PM	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Turkey is facing imminent victory. Zvi WILL take Naples if it means he wins the game. He has a lock on Moscow and Portugal, and one more supply center means he wins. Your only chance of survival is to let England and France support you into Spain. He loses a supply center, hits 17, and we can hold him to a draw, in which you survive.
Sun 10 PM	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Turkey is at imminent victory. Our only chance is to all work in unison against him. I have useless fleets, so you and England take half of my supply centers next turn. England moves his armies into the north. You and England use your fleets to push him out of Iberia. Disband the army in Bel or Bur. My own army will only take one of your supply centers as a trade for you to take mine as your armies move east, to keep enough to retain my eastern armies.
Sun 10 PM	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1907: gg no re
Sun 09 PM	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Understood, good game my friend.
Sun 07 PM	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1907: Or not.
Sun 06 PM	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: Nothing personal, but I have a game to win. Couldn't pass it up.
Sun 02 PM	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1907: I'm trying to get them to attack Turkey, since they now seem to have some contact in the South.
Sun 8 AM	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: Italy's problem is that it's hard to get big. You're often stuck at 4 centers, attacking Turkey leaves you exposed to Austria and France while not attacking Turkey leaves you with an ally who has tactical advantage on you and wants to go through you in the midgame. Neither option is fun, and often you do all right but are outpaced by another player. Austria's problem is survival, and for him centers are vital. If you can pick up the entire Balkans, Austria becomes strong, but Turkey is still very hard to work with without giving him the edge and Russia will often outpace you as an ally. Italy should be first choice if you have that option. The issue for Germany is that he's never strong enough to survive an attack by everyone, and if he gets into a 2-on-1 in the west as the strong 1 then what happens this game tends to happen: Eventually Russia or Austria shows up. Many players will see Germany take Belgium and then feel like the German isn't offering enough or is greedy or can't be trusted, whereas once England or France is taken down you can split the centers however you like to make it fair.
Sun 8 AM	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: Perfectly understandable. Can't hurt to ask, and good to know I can count on you in the Spring.
Sun 4 AM	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Let me know what you're doing with North Sea either way. If you're support moving into the Channel, then you can go Den-Nor and I will move Kie-Hel and take Holland the following turn instead. Giving me the build now as insurance against a true Turkish stab, so I can build an army in Moscow, would be a good idea.
Sun 3 AM	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1907: If I agree to do this, what are you going to do about England? You can't just move all your units south. You would have to expect him to go after me instead, and then I'll need my units in the north anyway. And if we ally together, then England/Turkey have sufficient strength to take us down (especially after Turkey grabs a few more centers).
Sun 3 AM	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Personally I don't find this particularly credible, although if he knows he is dead anyway he might as well be vindictive about it... I am not really sure if I should trust him either. It might be useful for North Sea to support Kie-Hol just to make sure it is successful. That is two SC down at least, plus maybe another on your end, plus whatever Turkey manages to do down south. He can't do much against us despite his threats if he doesn't have any units.
Sun 3 AM	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1907: Zvi is correct, I stabbed France. France just sent me this letter: "Hmmm. Ok, how's this. You need to build an army in Moscow; you also need to have a secure Western flank. I can guarantee you that, if you take Paris, I'll shift my entire army northwards and fight you to the death; using Marseilles and Brest, and disbanding Tuscany, I can prevent you from making any more progress for another few turns, at least. Instead, I'll offer you peace and Holland if you attack Turkey and leave Burgundy; I'll also move my armies to the South, and keep fighting Turkey. (By offer Holland, I mean not support it from Belgium; you'll need to use both your army and fleet to take it, and I'll disband the unit afterwards.) Incidentally, just so you know that this is credible: I rejected five separate peace offers from Germany, and two from Italy, after I'd told them that I would destroy them. If I'm doomed to die either way, I'm taking you down with me. I'd suggest that you let me live in peace."
Sun 3 AM	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1907: I don't trust you enough to support from Tyrolia at this point. You did tell me you would attack me this turn, which you did, but it is not entirely credible that you would stop now. I'm not going back to assisting you until your armies are out of my centers, which is presumably next turn.
Sat 06 PM	(To: Global, from Germany) - Autumn, 1907: I would have thought that Austria is weaker then Italy, as Austria can be attacked by G/I/R/T, while Italy can only be attacked by F/A, neither of whom generally want to attack Italy, and given openings like the lepanto Italy can get off to a good start in the opening. And as I said, Germany's 3 nearby SCs mean Germany can build up a lot of strength quickly if he can avoid being attacked from all sides. The stats I found said that Italy is 7th, Austria is 6th and Germany is 3rd - so you're right about Austria and Italy. Germany isn't a poor starting country, but I'm lumping it in with Austria as a central power which can be attacked from all sides, so perhaps the two countries should be considering similar strategies. The problem with giving Belgium away is that it can make the other country too powerful - for instance France could get 6 SCs in the first year, and once England is defeated Germany can still be attacked by Russia and Austria, or whoever has conquered them and taken their place, while France boarders Italy (the weakest country) and a Russian fleet or two. Basically, I would have thought Germany needs to take more SCs then it's ally to compensate for it's vulnerable flanks.
Sat 06 PM	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1907: Hmmm. Ok, how's this. You need to build an army in Moscow; you also need to have a secure Western flank. I can guarantee you that, if you take Paris, I'll shift my entire army northwards and fight you to the death; using Marseilles and Brest, and disbanding Tuscany, I can prevent you from making any more progress for another few turns, at least. Instead, I'll offer you peace and Holland if you attack Turkey and leave Burgundy; I'll also move my armies to the South, and keep fighting Turkey. (By offer Holland, I mean not support it from Belgium; you'll need to use both your army and fleet to take it, and I'll disband the unit afterwards.) Incidentally, just so you know that this is credible: I rejected five separate peace offers from Germany, and two from Italy, after I'd told them that I would destroy them. If I'm doomed to die either way, I'm taking you down with me. I'd suggest that you let me live in peace.
Sat 05 PM	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: My other piece of related advice: F Kiel - Denmark. A fleet in Belgium and an army in Denmark are both out of position and annoying, and neither works out all that often.
Sat 05 PM	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: In general, my biggest piece of advice to future players of Germany is: Do not take Belgium. Trade it to France or England, depending on who you want to work with.
Sat 05 PM	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: My opinion is that Italy is very weak, but that Austria is fine and Germany is solid. The statistics back this up. Austria is high variance, if not quite as high as Russia; a successful Austria can get very big quickly.
Sat 05 PM	(To: Global, from Germany) - Autumn, 1907: Thanks for the game guys, I look forward to going over the game and perhaps trying to think of some strategies for G/A/I to stop them getting crushed from all sides in future! Not that I am blaming my defeat upon bad luck in starting country - Germany has strengths in starting near 3 SCs, unlike A/I who are just very weak. Hope to play again soon.
Sat 8 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: Move would be: Bud-Tri, Tri-Ven, Ven-Pie, Rom-Tus, so unless Mar S Pie, which it won't, we make maximum progress.
Sat 8 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: If you trust me enough to be willing to order Tyr S Ven-Pie, that would be great, but I don't expect it.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1907: You do realize that Turkey is actually stabbing you, right, not just pretending to do so? They'll retake Sevastopol next turn, while simultaneously taking Rumania and holding Budapest. Don't keep attacking me- I'll fight you every inch of the way, and you can't spare the units. Nor can I.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1907: I'm not planning on taking holland or belgium this year but i want at least one of them... probably go after Brest, pic and bel, or maybe holland via Denmark depending on what you do. Not planning on stabbing you, though I want turkey to think i'm on his side (hence moving my army into scandanavia). Was zvi right that you made a deal with France and stabbed? i haven't ruled out the possibility that he just made a bonehead mistake
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: OK, tactics. Bur-Par, obviously. Mun-Bur is also obvious. Then it comes down to England. If he will support you into Holland, wonderful - take it with Kiel and move in Baltic Sea. If he won't, you can move to Hel and take care of the whole problem yourself. I expect him to let Mun-Bur work, at which point you pick up Bel/Hol next year and only have to give England Brest.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1907: Nicely done. I hear winter in Paris is lovely.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1907: ok, that's agreeable
Fri 7 Jan	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1907: Once Italy takes a supply center elsewhere, maybe he will be willing to rebel? Worth a shot at the very least. I would think Zvi would rather use him in non-SC positions to avoid giving him a build, although I guess he could always just agree not to build at all... I am willing to have an army in Sweden. When we eventually swap territories before the final showdown, you can either do a convoy chain (including my own fleets), or I will disband it and you can rebuild somewhere more useful.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1907: Turkey is going to take spain, since Zvi is controlling Italy's armies, or so it seems, there's not much I can do to stop him while pretending not to be hostile. Since I'm planning to move my fleets out of scandanavia, I am planning to move 1 (and only 1) army. As a show of faith, next turn I'll move that army into sweden so it's not a direct threat to any of your centers. But, I think you'll agree that a little bit of insurance for myself wouldn't be threatening
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1907: I actually don't mind too much France being in Tuscany and Piedmont, because that keeps his units in a place where they can't do anything while you walk into Paris and I walk into Spain, and England tries for Portugal and/or Brest. Next turn it's a free action to knock out Piedmont on the way to Marsellies, which I will walk into in Spring 1908 either way; Tuscany can watch while this all happens or disband in the winter depending on how it plays out. (btw I assume Ven means Vie). Also note that France made Italy the offer to support him last turn, and I have no doubt Italy said yes but then France's support never came. France isn't the supporting type.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1907: This should probably go without saying, but if you convoy an army into Scandinavia, I will take that as a sign of hostility. We need armies on the mainland badly. In a pinch against Turkey, my armies which invade France can head south, but it would be much better for you to have forces down there.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1907: We need to discuss long-term plans as well. I think we should split France down the middle, after whatever gains Turkey makes in the south. In terms of consolidating our gains, I think the best stalemate line for us is to have me occupy Scandinavia, and I'll give you my French territories. We could probably keep a border mostly DMZ, perhaps one army each in the mainland (Hol-Kie?), and no fleets in Norwegian/North. That way your units can battle Turkey in Iberia and the Med, mine can go overland into the Balkans. It is imperative Turkey does not move too quickly. Our little scuffle here will delay him at least one turn, which is helpful while we set up to take down France. Hopefully I will be able to induce a strategic error somewhere along the way as well, if he counts on my support at any point. If he gets into Iberia before you do, we are going to be in trouble. He is already at 11 centers plus Italy, so we are getting dangerously close. You have to take Iberia before he does, or the game is over. Best of luck.
Fri 7 Jan	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1907: Confirmed, double-support Tyr-Ven. Thanks, and good luck!
Fri 7 Jan	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1907: I am well aware you could have productively stabbed me earlier. I am moving Rum-Sev and keeping Tyr and Ven in place. It is up to you now. France thinks he is double-supporting me into Tyrolia, or so he claims. It wouldn't surprise me if he of course does not do this. If he actually does, well, that makes his units particularly vulnerable this turn...
Fri 7 Jan	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1907: Hang on, I didn't realize Baltic Sea could move to Kiel. This map is really goddamn unclear to me. I don't need to move into Denmark at all, so no worries there. This turn I am just positioning my units around France's armies, since he claims he will demilitarize our border. Next turn we can take at least one center, possibly multiple ones!
Fri 7 Jan	(To: You, from France) - Spring, 1907: I'm assuming for now that I'm double-supporting you into Venice; please message me back if that's not the case.
Thu 6 Jan	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1907: but where after denmark? I still have my fleet in the north sea that I can't move.
Thu 6 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1907: I will make sure Italy doesn't bounce him, and that tells us that he's representing he's going to cover Portugal with Spain since otherwise he could support in (or possibly support Bre-Mid, if he's that crazy but he isn't tactically sharp). Leaving Bur open doesn't strike me as something he should be willing to do especially since you walk into Paris, although obviously it would be great if it was that easy; Paris falls as does Brest and he's done. In the eastern three, I am going Sev-Bla, Ank-Arm, Con-Bul; I can convoy Arm straight to Bul so nothing lost there. As for what I do with Ven/Tri/Ser, I am going to make the move I would make if I thought you were hostile. The only thing lost is that I don't get to strike at Piedmont this turn, which would have been nice but it isn't a big deal either way. As for going to your centers and not backing off, it makes no difference whether I'm in them or not in the summer. Last fall I could have issued Ser-Rum, Bla S Ser-Rum, Tri-Bud and been 100% to get both. The bottom line is that you have been exposed for years, and I've declined to stab you; if I'd gone for it last turn I'd have a lock on Budapest, Romania and Sevastopol. You decided you wanted to move units out of position to strengthen your negotiating position. I feel the need to respond in kind, and in fact they are not unproductive moves because they will give the impression we are at war which will presumably cause some highly suboptimal moves from France; in any case I can't risk advancing on Piedmont at this time for obvious reasons, although I can next turn. Bottom line is that this is a risk you're going to have to take. The moves I make won't do any permanent damage, and the only annoying one is that I have to go back to the Adriatic, which sets back the naval reinforcements one turn. All you have to do is move Rum-Sev and make no further moves towards the border. If you want to keep your armies in Vienna and Tyrolia for now, I think that's perfectly reasonable. If you actively trust France to abandon, Kie-Ruhr, Ber-Mun, Mun-Bur, Bal-Kie, Pru-Bal is quite powerful and it doesn't really risk that much. I think he's likely to turtle into supports mostly, so support into Ruhr probably isn't needed. We should have a lock on at least one southern center if England is with us, plus Paris for a walk-in, plus Holland will be en prise.
Thu 6 Jan	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1907: Turkey is willing to work with me. We chatted for a while at the meetup, we basically both agreed that this move looks really bad but in practice does just about nothing to affect our plans. I am still going to move on France, so we should start coordinating. My plan is to move into both Bur and Ruhr, assuming he believes I am actually at war with Turkey. Meanwhile, I need to get my two fleets into play, which at this point would entail moving through Denmark. You can have it back later of course, but I simply can't have two useless units sitting around at this point in the game. You can move Den-Hel, and then the fleet can be used to take Holland next turn. What do you think?
Thu 6 Jan	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1907: I am obviously in no position to be attacking you, let's be serious. My main concern is that you're going to take a bunch of my supply centers, and then not actually back off. I will need units in the area to retake whatever you're going to capture next turn, but I think the fleet in Rum and the army in Vie are sufficient. What moves are you going to make? I trust England for now. France is also offering to work with me, he said he would double-support me into Venice. He also agreed to retreat from Bur to Mar, but is concerned he will bounce against Italy. I was thinking I would move into both Bur and Ruhr this turn, if France really does trust me. What agreement should I make with him around Venice to best support your advance?
Wed 5 Jan	(To: You, from France) - Spring, 1907: However, the withdraw will be to Marseilles, so it may bounce with Italy. Do you want a double-support into Venice?
Wed 5 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1907: As we discussed earlier, once I have a turn knowing you're backing off and not coming after me I can return the situation back to normal. I'll be slowed down a little but nothing too bad. My recommendation in Germany if you think England is loyal is to move into Ruhr.
Wed 5 Jan	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: Yes, but I have the army/fleet choice so making sure everyone knows.
Wed 5 Jan	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1906: aren't those the only places you CAN build?
Wed 5 Jan	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: In order to aid in negotiations not being held up: Turkey is building F Smy, A Ank, A Con.
Wed 5 Jan	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: In order to aid in negotiations not being held up: Turkey is building F Smy, A Ank, A Con.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1906: Yes, I'll withdraw next turn.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1906: Well that sucks for me! I am going to see what I can do diplomatically with him to repair things, but I am not holding out much hope... My best bet is to ally with France in the south, work with him to take centers in Italy, and then stab him with you to get builds. Note that Turkey can't possibly take Warsaw or Moscow by next build, so if I get enough extra centers this build I can still create a bunch of armies at home and stop his advance.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1906: I agree, I was not actually intending to go to war with you now, I merely wanted a little bit stronger bargaining position during the build to convince you to leave the Black Sea. I think we can still profitably be allies, depending on the terms of the agreement.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1906: i think its safe to say this is long term aggressive zvi.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1906: sent by turkey: "I don't know if France intends to join Russia or not, but either way I'm at war..."
Tue 4 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: I will note, however, that technically you *didn't* break a promise that turn, so I'm not locked into this war and neither are you. I will have to attack next turn of course regardless, but I don't actually want to fight you right now. It dramatically increases the chance this game ends in a draw.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: I didn't on previous turns in order to get you think I wouldn't later and cash in the chip. I'm that good. But not *quite* good enough to hold Adriatic Sea, because I thought you'd realize I couldn't stab you yet. This may well have cost me the game even though I think I can win this war.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1906: I even thought to myself that if I were you, I would attack Sev. Oh well! Thanks for the luck. :)
Tue 4 Jan	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1906: Posted here for records: 4:49 PM me: Hey. 4:50 PM Zvi seems to think France will secure MAO, from the summary he posted. Maybe France isn't that smart though... rkurtz57: he cant me: Anyway, you could try to convoy into Brest, if you think he moves MAO. Or, regardless, convoy into Picardy. 4:51 PM Are you going to bounce him? rkurtz57: well h/o let me check the map is west med-> MAO passable? 4:52 PM me: If you convoy into Pic, then you can try to slip into Brest or Paris, tie up his units, while I press from the east. I dunno... But he needs fleets in the south. rkurtz57: i didn't think it was, but maybe it is actually me: Hmmm, crap, wish I knew the rules better. rkurtz57: yeah that's screwed me twice so far this game 4:53 PM anyway yeah my plan was to cut a movement from Brest - MAO me: Aren't you concerned about getting armies onto the mainland eventually? rkurtz57: yes big concern haha 4:54 PM the other idea was to move channel to MAO, north sea -> channel and another fleet to north sea and have a three linked convoy going to flank france on both sides me: Yeah, not bad. Assuming you get MAO. rkurtz57: but unfortunately, can't do that this turn b/c of germaany 4:55 PM yeah me: Exactly. At least Germany is dead this turn, unless he stabs France and France is an idiot. rkurtz57: i wish i had a better idea of what france's plan is 4:56 PM me: Yeah, me too. This is what he sent me: "I fear I'm going to have to leave a lot of my units in the North, until England stops trying to attack me. Disadvantage of having a long coastline with few fleets, I suppose. In the interim, I'm trying to support Italy." rkurtz57: he sent me a message tring to get me to stab you me: Haha, of course. 4:57 PM rkurtz57: its tempting to try to get into north cost of france i think better strategy would be to take spain and portugal first though 4:58 PM less well defending and it'll keep theem out of turkeys hands possibly also give you more room to expand 4:59 PM me: Yeah, if you get into Iberia, that puts you in a better position later to confront Turkey in the endgame. rkurtz57: yes me: He is pissing me off by parking that fleet in the Black Sea. I'm going to try to negotiate with him to move it, we'll see how that works. 5:00 PM The advantage of you convoying armies into France proper is that our forces can work together up north. Although if you just support with fleets, that should be enough. If you build a fleet in Lvp, then you can get MAO by next build, and still have one fleet to help support my armies. Basically, the ground battle is a stalemate. 5:01 PM rkurtz57: as long as i can keep france out of MAO i think i may try to bounce MAO directly then with the fleet in Eng channel me: Yeah, that seems like the way to go at this point. 5:02 PM You can also move Lon safely, to build there instead of Lvp potentially. rkurtz57: even if my army gets into brest, it won't be well supported me: Well, if he moves MAO, and you take Brest, you get a bunch of builds, and Eng Channel can support hold. 5:03 PM rkurtz57: that's not gonna happen this turn the most i could do is cut a move to MAO 5:04 PM unless i convoy to pic but then i lose MAO i think that's a bigger loss since PIc is not a center spain + portugal seems more valuable than maybe brest 5:05 PM are builds next turn? 8 minutes 5:13 PM me: Back, I was calling Andrew to see what his plans were. I guess bounce MAO then, and try your convoy strat, using your fleets to support my ground attacks. 5:14 PM rkurtz57: sounds good and i think its possible to convoy other country's armies so something to keep in mind 5:16 PM me: Yes, that is definitely true. rkurtz57: ok 5:17 PM me: So far as I understand anyway... Christ, what a mess. rkurtz57: haha fun game but tough i like it way better than risk or axis and allies at least but i had no idea it was gonna last this long me: Oh yes, much better. It has been eating my life sometimes. :-P 5:18 PM It is either eating my life, or my life is so busy I almost miss the turn. Andrew proposed week-long turns to me. rkurtz57: i wouldn't do it too long 5:20 PM me: That length is nice though, because we can forget about it. Two days keeps the face furious. pace* 5:21 PM rkurtz57: except i probably would forget or maybe forget my tactics 5:22 PM plus games would last forever and not much incentive to keep playing after its obvious you won't win even though the fighting for your life dynamics does have interesting effects look at italy and germany, for example 5:23 PM me: Yeah, people giving up is annoying. Playing in person could alleviate some of these effects. rkurtz57: though harder to coordinate secretely 5:24 PM me: That's why you take people into other rooms to chat with them. I would study a LOT more before the next game, that's for damn sure. rkurtz57: yeah each country has specific, particulaly, opening tactics 5:25 PM me: nods My earliest turns were largely ad hoc diplomacy./ I didn't have much thought in terms of grand strategy. Now it's a lot more obvious. 5:26 PM rkurtz57: in a way, i'm lucky that england is so waterlock, that early mistakes didn't cost me the game outright 5:27 PM me: Well, true, but this was still fairly crippling. If I had been trying to contain you instead of deliberately get you more builds, you'd still be in a world of hurt. rkurtz57: yeah haha thanks for that, btw i think it'll pay off for you in the end to have me around 5:28 PM me: You're welcome. I sure hope so. :P I think the best-case scenario is a three-way tie, with us and Turkey. If Turkey gets to Iberia before we do, it's over. rkurtz57: yeah i agree i still think we have a shot at pressing turkey from two northern front s me: My one concern about attacking France so hard is that he will take pressure off Turkey. 5:29 PM I'm trying to get France/Italy to slow Italy's collapse, but they don't seem able to work together. And Turkey is moving in now... 5:30 PM rkurtz57: yeah the longer turkey italy and france are tied up, the better another reason not to go into brest right away me: That's why I was trying to call Andrew just now, but it seems like way too much of a shitshow for me to actually know what to do. rkurtz57: hopefull the army win burgandy will try to protect marseille and not paris 5:31 PM *in not win me: Yeah... 5:32 PM Depends on whether he sees us or Turkey as a bigger threat. I see your point about not being too aggressive in the north. 5:33 PM This turn I am going to move in a bit on Turkey, to pressure him on the North Sea. We're bouncing in Nor/Swe. The rest of my units are holding. rkurtz57: you mean black sea? me: Maybe France will think I am holding off up north, move his units along the coast, and concentrate down south. Yes, sorry. 5:34 PM rkurtz57: you could tell him as much idk if that would help him trust you also the turn is over haha or near enough 5:35 PM me: 10 minutes! rkurtz57: anotherproblem with going after turkey is that your borders are pretty exposed me: Yes, for now. rkurtz57: it'll be obvious whatt going on if you draw back or start building armies at home 5:37 PM me: I am just moving some units around down south, to change my bargaining position going into the build. 5:38 PM It will obviously look aggressive, but I may or may not turn that into an actual offensive. rkurtz57: just enough to broker a draw me: My biggest concern is that Turkey gets two builds this turn. 5:39 PM rkurtz57: unless he stabs ital y me: Yeah, if nothing else it ties up some of his units, slows down his advance into Italy until we make an agreement. rkurtz57: though he might me: Oh, I think Italy is getting stabbed. I mean, he took Venice... rkurtz57: i just hoped it wouldnt happen yet 5:40 PM but whynot, i guess me: Well, Turkey could have moved more quickly with Italy on his side. At least in theory. 5 mins to go! rkurtz57: only by moving against you, i thin 5:41 PM how else could he get around italy ? me: Convoy around, go overland. Make Italy a vassal. 5:42 PM rkurtz57: i hope italy/france came up with something to push turkey back me: Andrew tells me he simply can't work with France. I think they're totally fucked. 5:43 PM I'd use my unit in Tyrolia to help if I had ANY idea what would work. rkurtz57: weird too late for that me: Zvi asked me to support hold Venice, I told him no, so who knows how he changed his plans in response? At least that is one less unit being mobilized. 5:44 PM rkurtz57: it'll be interesting how it shakes out either way i think i'm gonna find a book on military tactics me: 30 seconds! This is hardly realistic... 5:45 PM Ah! I was afraid he'd move into Sev. Clever bastard. 5:46 PM rkurtz57: it was a matter of time 5:47 PM increased the amount of yellow on the board by like 50% i feel like zvi is finally trying me: I think when I told him I wanted him out of Black Sea, he decided to move into Sev. Nah, he always has been. He knew I needed to build there. 5:48 PM rkurtz57: france didn't try for MAO at all me: I was even thinking that I would have moved into Sev myself, I probably should have listened to myself. :-P rkurtz57: i'm surprised but moved out of west med that's weird me: Now Turkey gets three builds... Yeah, France is not an excellent player. I get no builds, so no reinforcements down south... 5:49 PM Oh well, I live and I learn. Motherfucker. rkurtz57: yeah turkey thats toug 5:50 PM me: Hmmm, what to do from here... At least I don't need to build this turn, so I don't have to worry about it. 5:51 PM rkurtz57: the other option is to try to take france quickly enough that you can regain centers as quickly as turkey can take them just throwwing out ideas me: Yeah, but I need to be able to build. Right. I'm still thinking about that. Ideally I'd like to work with France in the south, but war with him in the north... rkurtz57: that's gonna be tricky to broker me: If Turkey decides to press the attack, I will need to bring units down from up north anyway. 5:52 PM rkurtz57: you could do that me: I suspect Zvi will just offer to maintain the alliance, and that was just protection. rkurtz57: and just pretend he's only fighting me in the north me: Exactly. The stab would need to go just right... rkurtz57: well now that germany is gone, you could tell france there's no reason for our alliance to continue 5:53 PM i hope that isnt true me: Holy crap. From Turkey: "Serves you freaking right. Good luck." rkurtz57: :-P ouch dick 5:54 PM me: LOL 5:55 PM I think it's hilarious. Anyway, if he is committed to destroying me, I basically have no choice but to DMZ with France. 5:56 PM rkurtz57: fine me: I am not sure if he is or not yet, we'll see. rkurtz57: we'll see if he's hungrier for france or you me: He probably sees easier progress in Russia, especially given his three brand new builds... rkurtz57: if it's france, then france is about to get crowded 5:57 PM yeah though if F tunis -> west med he's got a nice convoy lineup to spain me: You have enough to fuck France up yourself, I think, despite a potential DMZ on my end. I wonder if Turkey will try to cease fire with France now? Ah well. 5:58 PM rkurtz57: that could work out for me if it leaves me with more territory to grab though worse since france will have more resources for defense 5:59 PM me: He will still need to keep at least some units around. To defend his border with me. I wouldn't completely DMZ. 6:02 PM Anyway, now that that is over, I need to get going to change and stuff before the meetup. Catch you later. rkurtz57: byee
Tue 4 Jan	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1906: Well, given that development, I suggest we work in tandem in Italy, and DMZ our northern border. England won't make much progress against you without my help. Move out of Bur, and I'll move out of Mun. I'll keep one army in Kiel. Agreed?
Tue 4 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: Serves you freaking right. Good luck.
Tue 4 Jan	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1906: It is in my interest to have you survive in Scandinavia, to balance things out against England. Tell me whether you are going Norway or Sweden, and I am willing to support your move into that country.
Mon 3 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: This allows better movement of the fleets while also cutting down on the backfire if Italy stabs us, without any cost if he doesn't.
Mon 3 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: Talked to Italy, looks like France is at least pretending to try to make a deal with him, offering to support Rom-Ven, which means the right move becomes Apu-Rom. New support is for Ven H. Sorry if this is confusing.
Mon 3 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: OK, confirmed that Tri-Ven is the support. I can't actually get into Marseilles for several turns and if I attack him he can disband and build a new fleet which I want to prevent.
Mon 3 Jan	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: On being ready: Remember that the game only proceeds if *everyone* clicks ready, and you can always take it back later. Thus, if you're ready to proceed in the situation where everyone else thinks they too are ready, you can safely click ready. I might well change my orders, but if everyone else doesn't think I need to, then I won't, so I'm ready.
Sun 2 Jan	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1906: I fear I'm going to have to leave a lot of my units in the North, until England stops trying to attack me. Disadvantage of having a long coastline with few fleets, I suppose. In the interim, I'm trying to support Italy.
Sun 2 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1906: OK, he's splitting his forces then. A mutual clash in Sweden and a clash or English convoy to Norway shuts him out. It prevents the blitzkrieg but that can't be helped. They can then attack Kiel twice (Ruhr/Holland), or Munich twice (Ruhr/Burgandy). Covering both requires Berlin and Bohemia to support holds, which frees Tyrolia to support Tri-Ven or Ven-Pie; default to Tri-Ven for now. Alternative would be to try to get Ruhr in the hope France isn't willing to support Germany here, if you think Germany went north without a deal. France has no reason not to support him though, it's a free harass, unless he thinks you're allied to him.
Sat 1 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: Assuming he retreats to Ruhr and Hel, meaning he's taking a shot at Holland or perhaps Kiel (as futile as that is), and we want to keep the deal with England (which given what you just did, it seems we do), we agree with him to hit Holland. England convoys to Belgium supported by North Sea. You go Munich-Bur to cut Belgium. Kiel-Ruhr. Berlin-Kiel with support from Baltic Sea and Denmark (so if he attacks you get in anyway). Bohemia to Silesia, Prussia to Berlin. Tyrolia supports Trieste to Venice for now. StP to Barnets Sea. We have plenty of armies in the north, so build is of course F StP(nc). England will have just been supported into two centers and you didn't take Norway, so he'd presumably put up with it, but you're setting up to roll the tanks on him once we break France.
Sat 1 Jan	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: How dare you not support the alliance! I've quite the mind to be cross with you right now. Given France is out of Ruhr, there's no reason to use Tyr in the north this turn, so might as well throw a support south. Not sure what the right support is yet, but my gut says it's Tri-Ven. Cause I'm a greedy bastard like that.
Sat 1 Jan	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: Reminder to all: You need to order both the army to move via convoy AND the fleet to convoy the army to its destination for the order to be valid. Either order by itself does nothing.
Fri 31 Dec	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1906: Is Turkey planning on taking all my centers this turn?
Fri 31 Dec	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1906: Sounds good to me, though you're gonna be competing with france for kiel
Fri 31 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: Especially since you so clearly promised to do so.
Fri 31 Dec	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1906: Okay, good luck. Turkey has you outnumbered down there, so you'll need to fight smart. I am trying to get Italy and Turkey to fight, to slow things down and get Turkey's armies into the peninsula. Once they are out of commission it will be much easier to stab him, esp if his fleets are not in position to convoy.
Fri 31 Dec	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1906: From Turkey: Lon is on him since it's a guessing game. Norway-North Sea, Sweden-Denmark, Baltic S Sweden-Denmark, StP H, Mun-Kie, Ber S Mun-Kie, Tyr-Mun, Boh S Tyr-Mun, Vie-Tyr, Sev-Bla. Pru H. That knocks out Denmark, prevents retreat to North Sea.
Fri 31 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1906: Not supporting Italy would be a damn shame indeed. Of course that would never happen in a million years. Of course not...
Fri 31 Dec	(To: You, from France) - Spring, 1906: Italy seems unwilling to cooperate, but I'll try to maintain the pressure against Turkey.
Fri 31 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: Eng/Lon is on him since it's a guessing game. Assuming England is still entitled to Denmark: Norway-North Sea, Sweden-Denmark, Baltic S Sweden-Denmark, StP H, Mun-Kie, Ber S Mun-Kie, Boh-Mun, Vie-Boh, Tyr S Ven-Pie, Sev-Bla. Pru H. That knocks out Denmark, prevents retreat to North Sea. If you choose not to do the support for Italy, you'd go Tyr-Mun, Boh S Tyr-Mun, Vie-Tyr instead.
Thu 30 Dec	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1906: probably into brest
Thu 30 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1906: Let's assume that England and I are working together this turn. Send me your suggested moves, I will pass them to England, and I will make my own decision from there.
Thu 30 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: (if you choose not to support him, and do something in the north instead, well, that would be a crying shame and I'd have to be very cross with you when I talk to Italy. A real crying shame.)
Thu 30 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: OK, verified the plan with Italy; unless I say otherwise please support Ven-Pie. In the north, the question is whether you plan to keep your word to England, but if so presumably we pick off Denmark this turn and launch and attack on Kiel in case France lets that happen.
Thu 30 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1906: I'm planning Ven-Pie with promised support from Tyrolia, so that's our story there. Not sure that's what we're actually *doing* yet, though. It depends on my read of the overall situation, especially figuring out France's intentions. Disbanding GoL was not expected.
Wed 29 Dec	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1905: Yeah, no problem, I am not looking to screw you over here. Once we see Germany's disband, we'll have our strategy for the turn. I think Germany will die this year, unless something crazy happens, like Germany still agreeing to work with France successfully. Are you going to convoy into France next turn?
Wed 29 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: All right, going ahead with it then. The Adriatic fleet serves the same purpose as this year's fleet, basically, so I don't lose much postponing it in terms of getting into the Atlantic, which is where I need to be to get to 17. Tyrolia, by the way, is going to be used in the south for the Spring but not for the Fall if things go as planned.
Tue 28 Dec	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1905: thanks for the forewarning
Tue 28 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1905: I didn't tell England we had a fleet agreement, so you are free to build an army.
Tue 28 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: I'd actually like an army, if you're ok with that, because I think it will make Italy go quietly.
Tue 28 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: Let me know how it turns out; my official offer is we agree to both build fleets. I may need an excuse to tell Italy why I'm doing it same as you need one for England.
Tue 28 Dec	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1905: Time for builds. This is my opportunity to secure StP, and I am going to build a fleet on north coast StP this turn, because I already have enough useful fleets in the south. The fleet is just going to hold, but it will send a possibly useful signal to others that our alliance is shaky. This also allows us to do an easy supply center switch in the future, if you don't capture more and want to disband one of those armies on the mainland.
Mon 27 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: North Coast is too hostile, though, as much as it's better; England needs to know Norway is safe so he can move to North Sea, but you need to know St. Petersburg is safe (or so you'll say). Note that holding in StP doesn't cost us much, at least for a turn, if he wants you to do that.
Mon 27 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: We have 17 centers, superior tactics and a solid overall position. I don't think England has much choice but to play ball, and you can say it's an agreement that we both build fleets this turn. We can even make that true, as it's a close decision on my part; the fleet is right tactically, with the cost being that I don't want Italy to think I'm about to stab him - whether I am about to do that or not.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1905: If you are still going after France, I like Zvi's idea of disbanding instead of retreating and rebuilding in Liverpool. The risk is of course my fleets around Scandinavia, but we need to get units mobilized. If you are unable to convoy successfully after next turn, then it might be worth me capturing one supply center for a build, you disbanding an army, and then building another fleet. I think it would be worthwhile for us to redistribute supply centers after this is all said and done, I think it makes more tactical sense for me to have Scandinavia and you to have a bigger piece of France/Germany.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1905: For archive purposes, this was your e-mail response to me: These are fine for now, though where's support from Den-> kie going to come from? As Zvi said, I need to capture another center for this turn, but without support Berlin, that's not going to happen this turn.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1905: I know what you mean about the focus. Haven't talked to England about this build yet. A fleet might make him wary (north coast is still obviously hostile), but maybe he'll understand the necessity. I was going to suggest that we will want to redistribute which supply centers we hold, if we can coordinate that, to make our units more useful.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: In other news, can you build a fleet here without England going nuts?
Sun 26 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: It interferes with my focus - my mind is constantly distracted by the tension. I think it'll be fine but I need to cut down.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1905: Wow, this game is interfering with you and Laura? That's a big deal. Is it just the time commitment? It certainly is eating a significant amount of my life, but I am also curious to see where it goes. I am highly unlikely to play another Diplomacy game any time soon, that's for sure...
Sun 26 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: England is right to be worried since he might not. Didn't tell him which way to guess. Did advise Germany to cover Holland, but no idea if he'll do it. Game is really getting in the way of things again, in annoying fashion. Might be hurting relationship even, more than its worth, so I might propose a draw.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1905: Okay, I locked that move in. England is worried about not taking a center this turn. Oh well. Less than one hour! Flight got canceled due to weather... crap.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1905: I'm dead no matter what I do. France doesn't plan on ever letting me get back to 3.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: Spring 1905 summary up on mailing list; I sent emails upon my return last night.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: Slight fix: Boh-Tyr, Gal-Tyr is *slightly* better since if he goes Mun-Boh for some bizarro reason the move still works, and it has no downside. Beyond that, think it's pretty solidly right given we don't have Prussia. As for A Gal, I read it instantly as insurance against me, and I'm sure the rest of the board did the same. I was a little sad because I saw the value of Prussia, but I can respect such things so long as I'm in a position where I clearly don't have to worry myself. Of course, next time I say your move is obvious, say what it is, and you think it's not obvious, you can always ask me why, and I would of course have said "to support Berlin" although I figured it would be after England kicked him out and he retreated there.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1905: I have sent that to England and locked that in myself. I will be able to check at least once tomorrow afternoon, possibly for a period of time up until I have to leave for the airport.
Sun 26 Dec	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1905: From Turkey: Lot of options out there, I'll sleep on it; let me know when your check-ins will be if you're worried. Gut reaction: Den-Kie, GoB-Bal, Liv-Pru, Swe-Nwy, Ber S Sil-Mun, Sil-Mun, Boh S Vie-Tyr, Vie-Tyr, Gal-Vie, Lon-Eng, Wal-Lon, Edi H.
Sat 25 Dec	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1905: Just got back. OK, here's how it goes. Tyrolia is going to be cut, he knows it, so that unit is going to cut Venice. Germany's obvious plan is to attack Berlin. Munich might even move to Silesia. If you assume he's on level one (which he seems to be), Denmark-Keil, GoB-Baltic and Silesia-Munich holds it by cutting all possible supports. After that, it's a question of whether to gamble to try and get Munich (unlikely) or secure Tyrolia (certain). The big question is, can I represent properly that I'm stabbing you without sacrificing anything; I don't *think* I can, but it's actually close. You'd certainly need to cover, and I think that's the part that hurts more. France staying in Belgium is weird (as opposed to Ruhr); dunno if that means stab or no stab. Germany might take a stab at Norway; the chance of him trying for *Sweden* is very low, but not zero. If you cover Norway but not Sweden you can't take the Baltic, which is annoying. Lot of options out there, I'll sleep on it; let me know when your check-ins will be if you're worried. Gut reaction: Den-Kie, GoB-Bal, Liv-Pru, Swe-Nwy, Ber S Sil-Mun, Sil-Mun, Boh S Vie-Tyr, Vie-Tyr, Gal-Vie, Lon-Eng, Wal-Lon, Edi H.
Sat 25 Dec	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1905: I decided on Galicia over Prussia because I thought France might turn on me, and that unit would be in a position to support move into Vienna or support hold. If the move from Silesia had worked, I could have slid the army into there just as easily from either province. Unfortunately I did not anticipate the fleet's move into the Baltic (I really need to watch more games), but that army could still come in handy this turn nonetheless. It also works in concert with my Sev bounce to make the alliance look uncertain. Anyway, it looks like we are facing a France-German alliance after all. England and I can definitely beat the two of them over the long run, and if you are right and France stabs, Germany will be crippled and we can move in quickly. We won't have long to coordinate, with the first day eaten up by holiday festivities. England and I would appreciate your tactical genius in this matter.
24 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1905: And not the trade you're saying. He's moving to Germany and talking about how Turkey wanted him to support Turkey into my center.
24 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1905: France is asking me to trade supply centers. He doesn't want to give me one of my home centers back. My guess is that both Turkey and France want to take my last two centers and both will want me to be fighting the other one while they set up.
23 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1905: I will be away on Christmas Eve and much of Christmas Day, so I plan not to check in during that period. I should be back on the night of the 25th, but don't read anything into it if I don't reply until the 26th. I will assume that many of you have similar tasks to attend to, and as Tom Leher says: On Christmas Day you can't get sore. Your fellow man you must adore. There's time to rob him all the more the other three hundred and six-a-ty a-four... Merry Christmas, everybody!
23 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1905: Conditional on you and Italy working together successfully this turn, I will support you into Trieste next turn and begin my own attack on him. I am not turning against him unless we have numerical superiority, and Italy working for Turkey makes this battle quite difficult. Otherwise, I let him take Italy now and he will be knocking on your doorstep before the time is right to move against him. Right now, while his forces are away from home and he is unable to get more builds, is the best time to strike.
23 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1905: Bouncing in the channel seems like a good idea to me, which allows your fleets to protect Scandinavia, but that's your call. If you get a fleet into the North Sea, then London + North Sea can push France out of the channel the next turn. Are you at all concerned about losing Norway or Sweden? My fleets will be able to support soon, and I can always temporarily move into Sweden and give it back to you the following turn, if that gives us better strategic positioning. Ultimately that is your call. If Germany has a deal with France, it seems to me France is just using him as a puppet to stall us before he eats the guy himself... we'll see.
23 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Spring, 1905: That depends. Are you willing to attack Turkey next turn? 'Cause otherwise they've got enough fleets piling up to eventually overwhelm any resistance Italy and I put up, so we're going to need a distraction.
23 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1905: France says he's taking the channel and going for Holland, but Turkey says that Germany thinks he and france have a deal going. Unless part of the deal is to give up holland (which is hard to imagine) this next move should reveal all. Now I need to decide whether I should bounce the france out of the channel or try for North sea.
23 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1905: OK, there are two possible moves. In theory I could be moving to Venice.
23 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1905: The Balkans are secure, time for the Black Sea to demilitarize.
23 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1905: Actually, your army at Trieste has a few interesting possibilities. I am not so sure your moves are uniquely pinned down after all...
23 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1905: In the south, with Italy on your side, you can successfully hold off Turkey. If I join you as well, then we beat Turkey for sure. Because Turkey is an incredibly strong player, I highly recommend we ally against him in the south. I am willing to have completely separate diplomatic relations with you in the north - in fact, that could be quite fun indeed. Our interests may diverge in the two cases, but so much the merrier. If we agree to this, your army at Tyrolia must be devoted to the southern front. What say you?
23 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1905: I just sent this to Italy: "Looking at the board, I actually think you should work with France, if you think you can trust him. You currently hold two centers, you can still keep at least that under this arrangement. If Turkey convoys an army into Italy YOU ARE DONE. You know he can use those supply centers better than you can. France has to protect Tunis, so he moves Rom-Tyr, you move Ven-Rum and Nap-Apu. Next turn you bounce Rom-Nap Apu-Nap, or Rom S Apu if you suspect a support move. France can move into Trieste, especially if I am outright supporting you two against him by then. Turkey has to disband, and I will get to build a fleet in Sev, we will be in a good position to take him down. If France thinks you are working with him, it is also strongly in his interest to let you get a supply center, so that you can build a fleet right in the middle of the battle. I am proposing this to France as well."
23 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1905: Looking at the board, I actually think you should work with France, if you think you can trust him. You currently hold two centers, you can still keep at least that under this arrangement. If Turkey convoys an army into Italy YOU ARE DONE. You know he can use those supply centers better than you can. France has to protect Tunis, so he moves Rom-Tyr, you move Ven-Rum and Nap-Apu. Next turn you bounce Rom-Nap Apu-Nap, or Rom S Apu if you suspect a support move. France can move into Trieste, especially if I am outright supporting you two against him by then. Turkey has to disband, and I will get to build a fleet in Sev, we will be in a good position to take him down. If France thinks you are working with him, it is also strongly in his interest to let you get a supply center, so that you can build a fleet right in the middle of the battle. I am proposing this to France as well.
22 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1905: Agreed, I've heard nothing from France yet. We'll see how this all plays out. I'll let you know as my situation updates, but those fleet moves will largely stay in place.
22 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1905: My gut is to go into Denmark if the channel is safe and try to retake the north sea. A lot depends on communication with France.
22 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1905: My current guess is that France and Germany have allied, although that is subject to change. I assumed Turkey would be helping you hold Venice.
22 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1905: I would bounce London against Brest, so the channel stays neutral. Germany's disbands suggest a France-German alliance, but I have no communication with either yet. My moves are Fin-GoB, Stp-Liv, I can do little but position at this point. You going to cover Nor, or try to force into Den? If he dares leave Kie undefended I am tempted to sneak in with Ber.
22 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1905: You're too smart for your own good. Your moves are obvious since no one can stop you from taking the Adriatic or the Ionian this turn. You will have a very commanding position in the south soon enough. A France/Germany alliance, interesting prospect. Makes sense if they are worried my alliance with England is secure. It also allows Germany to keep fighting England!
22 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1905: The opening Russia played on my suggestion is a double-edged sword; it's obviously superficially aimed at Austria but can be a setup of Turkey. I certainly don't think it offers anything that dooms the two to a war, but it's the most powerful thing R/T can do against Austria quickly. The Bulgarian Gambit I've never seen pulled off successfully, but it's obviously beautiful if you do. I've offered my own strategic commentary, but I think that your comments are mostly on point. There are certainly a lot of ways things can go down.
22 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1905: If you could (pretend to?) work with france for a season against Germany I can hold Venice.
22 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1905: You made the right call; long term you benefit from a northern fleet but short term it's too useless and glaringly obviously hostile. With south coast, you get what you need against England long term, which is fleets, without seeming hostile. We need to keep England on our side. Germany obviously thinks he has a deal with France but I doubt France intends to use it for much beyond sneaking into Holland and keeping you out of Munich. Effectively we have E/R/T/I. As you note, it's good that they think we're not truly together, so I'm trying to give that impression. My move is obvious, and I doubt you'd get a detail wrong. I bet I know yours as well - Fin-GoB, StP-Liv, War-Pru, Boh+Ber S Sil-Mun, Sil-Mun, Bud-Vie, Sev H.
22 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1905: With those disbands, Germany will fall quickly to the three of us. If you move on Holland and Ruhr, I move on Munich and Kiel, we get at least one of the four. That frees up your unit in Tyrolia to fight in Italy. I still think we should be in a long-term alliance.
22 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1905: I'm going to take back my peninsula!
22 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1905: Well well well, what the hell are you going to do now? Turkey or France, my friend?
22 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1905: Okay, since you did not disband two fleets, I have another proposal for you. Obviously you cannot stand against France/England/Russia combined. However, survival is superior to extermination. If you agree to be my vassal state, our fleets can crush England in the north, your units hold France at bay, mine move in behind. You will always have enough supply centers in front to have usefully placed units, and you can keep one army in England at the end of the game.
22 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1904: Trying to figure out what to do with England. I can build in either the north or south coast of StP, if I am not mistaken. NC seems blatantly anti-England, there is no way I could utilize that fleet well in any other way. But if I build SC, that unit is in a good position to support my existing front, and it shows trust to England. I am risking StP, but that seems a small price to pay given the upside here. The more probability they put in our alliance breaking down, the less inclined they will be to ally against us.
22 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Austria) - Autumn, 1904: --------------- The has worked out well for Russia because of England initial mistakes and disinterest on placing pressure on Russia's north. Germany's current collapse puts Russia in a very strong position. --------------- In addition because I feel like it my 2 cents. Interested in feed back from Zvi on flaws in my view. --------------- England has recovered a bit and looks to be working with Russia. Will they try a backstab and go for ST.Petersburg? How are they going to handle the German fleet in the North Sea? What do they expect to get long term from an alliance with Russia? -------------- Germany, can they make peace with France and hold off collapse? Doing so would probably not gain them a win but would prevent destruction. They still could be a king maker. How does Germany feel toward France vs Russia? Who do they want to win? ----------------------- France, if they can make peace with Germany and convince England to attack Russia the game would find balance. They could push though Italy or perhaps better give Italy back rome hold Tunis and work with Italy and place pressure on the Russian/Turkey alliance. If Turkey can not move forward they are forced to stab Russia. ---------- Russia, keep the status quo, keep the alliance with England, Crush Germany, Stab Turkey before they stab you, Win. -------- Turkey, you need to grow quicker. Can you use diplomacy to slow Russia down while keeping him your friend? Can diplomacy get you into Italy and the centers you need to keep pace with the northern bear?
22 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Austria) - Autumn, 1904: I did not study that much book but I found this to be of use. http://www.diplom.org/Online/Openings/interactive.html? I don't know if Russia meant it but this is the description of his opening: UKRAINE SYSTEM, AUSTRIAN ATTACK VARIANT Russia's second most popular opening, this generally means that Russia is confident he has a Turkish ally against Austria. A drawback is that the fleet in Rumania is poorly placed. Russia must usually choose between a northern or southern strategy. This means putting her eggs in the appropriate basket. Here she is allied with Turkey against Austria. If there is a stand-off in Galicia or Rumania, there will be support for the same order in the Fall. [BULGARIAN GAMBIT] This Austro-Russian combination requires a careful diplomatic setup of Turkey, but guarantees to keep the Turk at three SC's by the end of 1901. Austria opens with Tri-Alb and Bud-Ser, while Russia sends the Sevastopol fleet to Rumania. In the Fall, Turkey is convinced by one or both of Austria and Russia to attempt a move out of Bulgaria, and A/R combine to dislodge the unsupportable Bulgaria. Doug Beyerlein wrote an article on the Bulgarian Gambit.
22 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Italy) - Autumn, 1904: To be fair, as Italy or Austria I'm going to want to kill any Turkey that takes the Black Sea Spring '01. Either Turkey has Russia completely flummoxed or has an alliance. Either way Turkey has a safe North border so either he'll rape Russia or move west. I was going after Turkey regardless of the player.
21 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: There is a bug in the game that prevents disbands from being locked in. We're simply going to wait until the time runs out; not Germany's fault.
21 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: I actually think giving the impression we're divided to everyone else has its benefits, but no need to make this that complicated. If France doesn't head south, all we have to do is stick together and we unite the south with a foothold in the north, which wins the game for R/T.
21 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: How much do you intend to help England out? He'll need multiple fleets to get anything done against France, and nothing stuck in the north counts. England I'm sure knows that if you can grab Norway/Sweden with no effort, you will, so I figure he's going to keep those two where they are. He even thinks right now that France is going to take the channel.
20 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I was trying to get France to go after you so that England could backstab him most effectively and make rapid progress. Then the units disband and we swoop in for the kill.
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: You're doing it wrong. You're not supposed to try and get France to attack me, you're supposed to get him to fight England. Of course, he thinks that a fair division of Italy is three for him, one for me and Ionian is empty. I'm struggling on how I can make a *fake* counteroffer to that.
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1904: yeah the power dynamic really shifted in just one turn. I'll see what I can negotiate with France as to not lose my influence over the sea
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: Austria went out taking one for the team. I'm strangely impressed. My next move is all but scripted unless France wants to help me into Venice. Unless France devotes major resources to the south, I get to swallow the whole of Italy and that is obviously the plan. How soon can we get England fighting France?
20 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1904: France just informed me that we can only build new units in our home country, which sucks. That makes it obvious he should build a fleet in Mar and Bre each, which will make the invasion of France harder - I was hoping he could build in Tunis. You and Germany still have enough combined strength to take down France, especially when he is tied up down south, but that fleet will make it slower going.
20 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1904: Huh, didn't know that. I should probably be reading those Diplomacy rules! :)
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1904: Errrm. It's only possible to build units in your home country, so I can only build in Brest, Paris, and Marseilles- and since I already have an army in Paris, I would have had only two extra possible builds even had I taken Munich. Anyways, I'm going to build fleets in both Marseilles and Brest.
20 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I highly recommend that you disband two of your fleets and make an alliance with England against France. Distasteful I know, but it is clearly your best strategic option at this point. Then you have armies to defend against me and France, England can make rapid gains against France, of which you can share in the bounty. I will continue to capture your supply centers, because I need them in the future and Turkey is not ripe for a backstab yet.
20 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1904: That went well! Now you get a fleet build in London, yay! The question is what Germany decides to disband. His army will retreat to Ruhr, I think he should disband North Sea and Hal fleets and will tell him such.
20 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I realized Germany might try to bounce Munich against an unsupported move into Berlin, so I decided to support move. Plus if my only road into Germany is Berlin I can't get my armies mobilized in any effective way, and I didn't trust you to surrender a supply center next turn with three extra builds. Your army in Tyr will be much more useful against Italy/Turkey than in Germany. Next year you get Ruhr and Holland, I get Munich, England gets Denmark, and Germany is dead or a vassal state. Now you have two builds. With a fleet each in Mar and Tun you are in a commanding position in the Mediterranean. Italy is the battleground against Turkey, and you have more than enough units to keep him contained.
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1904: I've done it- thanks so much!
20 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1904: It might be too late for this message to reach you. Oh well, I hope you support moved into Belgium. Good luck!
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1904: Agreed. Incidentally, would you be willing to support me into Munich with the (presumably) unused army in Silesia? If you don't, I can't take Belgium this turn.
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1904: Well, I did take Sweden, so I think if you take Berlin and leave it at that we can still work together.
20 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1904: We need to talk soon if this is going to happen, especially about dividing Germany in the right places. You can take Mun this turn for the build, which I hope is a fleet in Tun or Mar. Next turn I need to get into Germany through Munich, and long term I think that should be one of my supply centers from the deal. You get Belgium and Holland. England gets Sweden and Denmark. Kiel is the grab bag - I expect we will further divide once we turn against England eventually. Germany should fall next year, after he disbands from these losses.
20 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1904: Not a full backstab, but a partial one, since I am taking Berlin. That said, it might not be in my best interests to see you collapse either, since England/France can be a powerful alliance. I will support hold Swe and Mun, Bel bounces Pic. That frees up the North Sea to convoy Hol into Yor. I am trying to convince England to move his army out of London, to free it up for a fleet build, and if he agrees to that plan I will let you know to convoy there instead. Another thought just struck me if London doesn't work out: you could move North Sea to English Channel, and move another fleet into the North Sea. France has no fleets to defend against you, you can move against Brest or take London with certainty next turn.
20 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1904: You mean this isn't a full backstab? Surprising. How do you want to proceed?
19 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: I agree with your plan of supporting England's attack on Sweden, because it's the best way to keep him from attacking StP and also keep him on our side. I think he's much more inclined to go with R/T as allies than with France or Germany now that I've thought about his attitude more. This goes double if we're helping his attacks while countering those from France by cutting Tyrolia.
19 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: A stronger England is to our advantage if you believe he intends to turn on France; what we don't want is for England to get back in the game and form a strong E/F we have to fight on fair terms.
19 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: If Austria had kept Budapest, we would have destroyed it anyway but it would have prevented you from marching on Berlin. Austria's only ally is France, so he wants you to march. Yes, he keeps Trieste for a turn and that's fine, but then we're in Serbia, Budapest and Vienna so it falls anyway. Instead, this allows him to force me to go Greece-Albania to get Trieste in the spring, which then gets him Ionian Sea, which in turn allows them to attack Naples. If France is smart, he'll know that I will likely attack Ionian Sea, so if he doesn't support Austria into Naples I will retreat him into Tunis. The alternative is for France to cover Tunis, in which case Italy re-forms and we quickly expel him from Tunis next year. Thus, Austria will likely survive in Naples! Then I have many places I can try to go and they can only cover half of them, so things go well. I agree that Italy has given up hope, but I don't think he's going to quit, and while Austria said he needed a chance to win to play his move says otherwise, although he's kind of surly.
19 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I told England that if he goes Nor-StP he has a high chance of losing Nor, netting 0. He needs another build, I know he does, and a stronger England is to my advantage. I can guarantee him Sweden, if he believes I will help him.
19 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1904: Pretending to work with England. He is going Nor-Swe (thinking it is supported by Fin-Swe), Ska-Nor, Yor-Edi. Move Swe-Nor and his fleets lock up, use North Sea to convoy Hol into Yor.
19 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I am extremely curious what you think Italy and Austria are going to do this turn. Scott disbanded his army and let us march in. Scott and Andrew both seem done with the game.
19 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1904: The last thing Turkey wants is to be facing a strong presence in the south. He is advising me to protect Munich to slow your growth. I think this would indeed be in Turkey's interest, which, unfortunately, is in my long-term disinterest. I think we should carve up Germany quickly. I am working with England in the north to take Sweden, Berlin is undefendable, Tyr-Mun S Bur-Mun gives you a center. That gets you another fleet build in Tunis. After Germany is gone, we will probably have to deal with an England/Turkey alliance.
19 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1904: Also, it is time to move the fleet out of Black Sea, its tactical use there is finished. Once the area is vacated, we can have our two units bounce each turn, or you can utilize it in the med, your call.
19 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: Also, to point out the obvious: Do you trust England to not try and steal StP?
19 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: This plan requires that you stop France from getting into Munich. Otherwise, France will build F Brest most of the time here, assuming Austria doesn't steal Tunis. Co-operating with England makes perfect sense if he's planning to turn on France. Note of course that Iberia isn't open if I get there first, and England currently has no fleets he can get to France in a reasonable amount of time. However, I do like the concept and I do think that we want to keep England and Germany both in the game for now. Germany would be willing to work with England if he knew he had no choice, but right now he doesn't have any respect.
19 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1904: One more piece to consider: where you build. Edi will be covered and thus unavailable, Norway would be a possibility but the fleet is less useful up there. If you're willing to risk Lon, you can move Lon-Wal, build a fleet in Lon, and then move it to the channel and convoy into France next turn. Those armies have to get to the mainland eventually. Plus a fleet in Lon at least gives you option value on hitting Germany anyway after he disbands his fleets.
19 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1904: Had a chat with Zach/England. Our plan was to take Berlin and Sweden, and then convince Germany to disband two fleets and ally with England against France and me. England thinks the quickest progress he can make is turning against France, since Iberia is basically open and France has no fleets nearby, but doesn't think Germany would be willing to work with him. Right now the plan is for him to move Yor-Edi to cover, Nor-Swe (supported by Fin in theory), Ska-Nor. This should get him another supply center for next turn, where he could build another fleet. A stronger England would help to balance things up north, and France would be more distracted in the south. At the same time, I think I can swallow Germany, and it strikes me that telling Germany England's moves could allow him to cripple England further and make gains to even out what I took. France and Germany stay in conflict, and I can swallow pieces of Germany. Thoughts?
19 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1904: From Gchat, posted here for record purposes: me: Hey England. rkurtz57: hi! Russia, right? me: I moved my fleet up for that very purpose. :) Let's talk strategy. Yes. rkurtz57: yes me: I think making sure you don't get dislodged from Norway is priority number one. rkurtz57: yeah you must be nervous about St P right about now me: There is that as well, potentially. Of course, if you lose Norway to get StP, that is not helping your cause any. You NEED another fleet, that means being +1 supply center at the end of the turn. I'm thinking I can support your move from Norway to Sweden, your other fleet moves to Norway to bounce the potential North Sea attack. Then you can build in Norway or Edinburgh. (If you don't move your army to cover.) Sent at 4:32 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: do you think there's a difference between moving F Nor-> Swe or F Ska ->Swe? me: If he moves Swe-Nor supported by Black Sea, Norway gets bounced unless you are moving from Norway. rkurtz57: ah ok me: Do you have any sense of what Germany is going to do? We can guarantee you get Sweden no matter what Germany does, AFAICT, but I also don't want him to do substantial damage to you elsewhere. rkurtz57: I'm gonna move to cover Edi other than that there's not much I can do at home me: Obviously once I take at least Berlin he is going to have to bring units home and disband something, so the pressure is off. Right. rkurtz57: yeah then we have a few options either convoy into belgium and get support from france or through denmark, either way, we're making him fight at 3 fronts me: Oh, armies on the mainland would be very helpful. I assumed that was an all but lost cause at this point. :P Until you build another fleet anyway. rkurtz57: yeah i need another fleet and retake the north sea and/or the channel Sent at 4:38 PM on Sunday me: Germany might disband a fleet too, to concentrate on me and France. Sent at 4:39 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: have you been talking to italy at all? me: Not much. At this point Andrew is ready to give up. rkurtz57: ok its a weird situation diplomatically me: Scott's army disband was basically conceding that he is giving up Austria. rkurtz57: but i guess if italy is giving up then it might not matter me: The south is entirely fucked, I expect Turkey to roll over them. rkurtz57: yeah that seems inevitable depending on how much territory you can grab first me: Right, ultimately it will be up to me (and France to some degree) to face Turkey eventually. I need to grow more quickly than he does though... Sent at 4:43 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: you're in a better position to take german centers though that will be more challenging that sweeping up italy me: This is true. But what is the next step after Germany collapses? Exactly, Germany still has a solid base. Sent at 4:46 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: thinking long term, France he's pretty extended and he's essentially left the iberian penn. open me: If you could conquer France, maybe you could have the strength to face Turkey with me. You swallow France, I swallow Germany. rkurtz57: that makes a lot of sense and, since i'll be focusing on fleets you know our goals are compatible me: That is true, although it will be easy enough to convert over, and fleets would still be able to do significant damage to me up north if I took Germany. Hmmm... I was wondering about you and Germany allying against France. The problem is that you two both have a bunch of fleets. Lots of wasted units there. rkurtz57: that was the original plan and it failed germany was stabbing me from the beginning me: Though if you get Germany to disband some fleets, trust you, and focus on me and France in a ground battle... rkurtz57: the original plan was anti-france with ger supporting me: Your fleets get freed up to mobilize against France, you make some rapid gains. Right. Then you and Germany went at each other. Oops. rkurtz57: the thing is that we agreed to split the neutrils but he took belgium me: When your convoy failed, I think he switched alliances. rkurtz57: yeah early, stupid mistake me: I know, so much path dependence. rkurtz57: in any case an alliance with you is better than with Germany at this point me: Yes, obviously. rkurtz57: first of all, he's not going to trust me now against France even if we carve up france he's too close to home then he gains centers and comes after me me: Remember he'll be tied up with me as well. I have to attack either Turkey or Germany, and I don't have the units in place to fight Turkey. I think he'd be willing to put enmity aside for the time being. rkurtz57: germany you mean? me: Yes. rkurtz57: he hasn't signaled that to me me: As Zvi said, tactical success leads to diplomatic success. If you take Sweden, I take Berlin, you convince him to disband two fleets and you guys face me and France. Sent at 4:54 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: h/o i'm thinking me: No problem, take your time. I've been doing a lot of crunching lately. :P Sent at 4:56 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: tactically speaking, I guess you're right but it seems to me that, at least now, western france would be an easy target Sent at 4:58 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: plus as another signal of my trust, I'lve left St.P alone even though germany would have supported that move me: Indeed, you could have screwed with StP this entire time. Sent at 5:00 PM on Sunday rkurtz57: ok I have to go but i've set up for Norway-> Swe and Ska->Nor me: Okay, sounds good, I am assisting. rkurtz57: great me: We'll talk later. rkurtz57: yep bye me: Peace.
19 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I am starting to see us increasingly as long-term allies. Specifically, you are going to win in the south, which means you and me will ultimately face a showdown with Turkey. Italy is a key battle ground. It is in my interests to see you have a strong southern presence.
19 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1904: Hi Russia, what do you think about supporting my move from SKa to Sweden?
19 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1904: <Russia to me from E-mail> I am sure you will stab me at the optimal point, but it seems to me like we could keep going quite profitably for some time in our current direction. So what political situation in the west is in our best interest? We want the battle to go as slowly as possible, AFAICT. France with no fleets in the north makes for a very interesting situation, and England and Germany can't bring both to bear on France at the same time. Plus I doubt Germany is going to leave my attack undefended, so he has to try something with at least one of them, and France can't actually help him against England. I also have to swallow someone, and Germany looks easiest right now. Then there is the whole France/Italy/Austria tangle. All right. Germany can't save Berlin, so he has no reason to try. He'll defend beyond that, but you have no interest in going beyond that and he may understand that. In fact, for now defending Germany is better than attacking it beyond taking Berlin, since the longer you wait the bigger a share you will get. Also, we don't want France getting builds to make fleets. Thus, I think we should offer to save Munich. You'll have to make sure England doesn't steal StP and also keep it open, since you'll need fleets in the north, but if you can manage that you can start getting into a better and better position. Note that only Norway is in any danger of falling, and if you go Finland-Sweden that prevents Germany from taking it without losing Sweden, which prevents a retreat into St. Petersburg. As for the triangle, I'm going to assume you're in no way attached to Italy at this point. My plan is simply to move in and annex the whole place sooner or later. The fewer units are in my way doing that, the better. As for the eventual stab, well, yeah, of course - if I see a win I'm going to take it. But realistically for the medium term you can't get to me in any worthwhile way and no stab of you no matter how effective is going to get me past Vienna and Romania, or possibly Sevastopol, and then I'm facing a quagmire while someone else eats you. That's not relevant to my interests unless it gets me to 18, so you have nothing to worry about until I get into the Mid-Atlantic, and frankly it's a more elegant win NOT to stab you if I can get to 18 anyway. The main way I stab you is if you get the Russian Steamroller going too fast relative to the Turkish Armada and you'll win the game if I don't.
19 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I haven't moved on any of your units or taken any centers. At this point Austria is just about finished, at most he holds onto a unit. I need Turkey to start getting his units into action against Italy and France before it will be possible to backstab him. Meanwhile, I have moved my units into useful positions. Munich faces two armies, I can support from Silesia and cut Tyrolia from Vienna, and the fleet can support Sweden. Let me know how you want to proceed.
18 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1904: I'm satisfied that things are secure. If I see a tactical way to get that fleet in Sev disbanded safely, we'll do it, but for now it stays in Sev as part of the deal so you can't build another. You need some sort of safety garrison anyway, so this saves us building it in elsewhere. Note by the way that we *don't* benefit from the total collapse of Germany, because England/France would get most of it. Eating Berlin is great, but France getting Munich is bad for business so I kind of like cutting Tyrolia's support for Bur-Mun while taking Berlin. In a weird way, we can extract slowly bigger pieces of Germany in exchange for not turning this into a massacre.
18 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1904: Time for black sea to demilitarize, BTW.
18 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1904: Supporting from vie, rom taking bud, armies moving to Germany.
18 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1904: OK, move is: Gre-Alb, Ser-Tri, Vie S Ser-Tri, Rum-Bud, Apu-Ven, Rom S Apu-Ven and Austria is out with some support orders in the fall. If you wanted to you could also start your German war now; France says he's going into Tyrolia to bring the pressure, although I think Germany knows that and will block. I'm curious if he will cover Ruhr or shield Belgium; I think France is a favorite to go for Belgium. His army build is pretty dumb.
18 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1904: I am waiting on confirmation with Russia then will lock in.
17 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1904: The problem is with the right stimulants (coffee etc.) there are better things to do than sleep. I slept 12 hours between monday morning and thursday night. And France will end up getting a piece of me.
17 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1904: Oh well. Austria's decision is interesting. Not having to surround Budapest frees up your units quite a bit. Romania can walk into Budapest without a fight, and I'll advance into Trieste with support of Vienna. In theory you could even use the two free units to walk into Prussia and Silesia if you wanted to... Trying to figure out what Albania is actually going to do.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: France, soon as you're ready we can proceed to Spring 1904.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Sure you want to hurt Austria, but strengthening Turkey is dangerous to everyone else. You can also do more damage to Austria if you survive longer. If you're going to be a deliberately suicidal dictator, at least give the country to someone else. I know what you mean about sleep deprivation. My amount of sleep seems to be inversely correlated with how interesting my life is. I think the solution might be to quit my job.
17 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1903: I'm don't expect to be in this game much longer and would like to hurt Austria. Also, last night was my first full night of sleep this week.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Italy) - Autumn, 1903: I take a nap and general chat explodes
17 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I'd also note that it sounds like next time I should probably be Gamemaster rather than participate, since there are going to be multiple players who are going to want me dead from the start! That turns it into a very different game.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I understand why you view Tuesday night the way you did, but believe me when I say I wasn't meta gaming and I don't think anyone else was, either; I certainly didn't think I was talking to Russia or Austria, unless you were Russia, and I wasn't thinking about anything but the fact that it was too good not to talk about it. You're right that Turkey/Austria is a one-sided deal. The problem is that Turkey ends up with the edge of the board and naturally flanks Austria. He is safe and can't be effectively attacked, while Austria remains vulnerable, so eventually Turkey can either get a better and better deal and/or stab Austria for the win. That is also, of course, why I was so eager to work with you the whole time! The problem is that you can't choose a middle path here. If Italy/Russia wants Turkey dead, joining them is a good plan. Pretending to do that then joining with Turkey is also a good plan, but striking out on your own was an invitation for them to let me join up which is what happened. By the time you were willing to talk, it was one turn too late to turn things around once I was confident Russia was willing to let me script the attack and Italy was willing to support into Greece. And frankly, the withdraw of support in Fall 1902 while I was already on a train to New Haven and the explanation you gave said to me you weren't prepared to think and play as a team. Your play makes a lot more sense now; you basically saw other people playing one way because of my identity, and didn't want to play along which is admirable, but also saw the other option as unacceptable for strategic reasons, and tried to take a third option where there wasn't one. Diplomacy is not about setting up interesting alliance matchups and then playing fair! It's about crushing the opposition like a bug and then going to find new opposition.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Austria) - Autumn, 1903: Yep, Tuesday was very sad. Over all the game has been a sour one for me. I did not join Russia's and Italy's attack against Zvi because from Russia's correspondence it was clear the attack would be purely motivated on the belief that Turkey's was Zvi, a player considered to dangerous to let live. At the same time I did not want an alliance with Turkey. The bit of book I read said it rarely works out for Austria. I started off the game in a bad place. To make things worse I messed up my and moved alb ->tri instead of alb-> Greece. Later, to my surprise after being so against Turkey, Russia rejected my offer to align against Turkey by disbanding the fleet in Rum instead of Gal. I was also surprised that Turkey and Italy did not work together and take Greece the turn beforehand. I had hoped for a Russia/Austria against Turkey/Italy that would have been victorious yet make for an interesting game. To top it off Tuesday night gave me way more meta-game then I ever wanted. For me it changed the game from Diplomacy to... I don't know what. Germany at some point if you don't mind I would like you to send me Russia German correspondence. I would like to know what I sound like. Sali...@gmail.com
17 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1903: The more I think about it, the more I think you should build a fleet in Brest. Germany's three fleets are going to own England in fairly short order without your help. Turkey is the long-term threat, but it will take many turns to finish Austria and then Italy.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Sounds like a plan! Let's hope this gets turned around quickly. Austria is not long for this world. I wonder where France will build the fleet? I'm hoping north...
17 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I think the plan is, you send the built army to Livonia and the fleet to Gulf of Bothnia. Then you send both back to St. Petersburg for a clash, which lets you build a fleet there off of Budapest. In the south it depends on Austria and Italy's disbands, but it's hard for us not to get him mopped up.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Supporting Turkey into Greece was quite the play there. Turkey gets two centers, you don't get to defend Tunis - that hurts you quite a bit to aid his cause, when you are obviously his next target. Oh well, nothing to do but move on from here. I am trying to get France to build a northern fleet to delay Germany.
17 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Process of elimination, but I never would have suspected either. Very interesting.
17 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Thanks, Austria should go down fairly quickly. I am still quite worried about Turkey, gaining two centers this turn was a huge coup. I am surprised Italy supported Turkey into Greece, at the cost of not defending Tunis. Are you building a fleet in the north to hold Germany, or a fleet in the south to take down Italy and then Turkey?
17 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Wait, so.... wait, Scott is AUSTRIA?! Tuesday must have been awkward.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1903: is that true for anyone who takes a nap?
16 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1903: Eh, that failed. I'd kill Austria for the betrayal, only you're already doing it for me. :) Anyways, good luck!
16 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I agree with your instincts re the west. If we attack Germany now while we're distracted I think it's bad; we're better off letting them face off with each other for another year. Better to mop up Trieste for me and Budapest for you and get you in a position to build a second northern fleet, then decide where to go from there.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from France) - Autumn, 1903: Yo. I'm Alex Richard, from Atlanta.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Italy) - Autumn, 1903: I take a nap and general chat explodes
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: And. It. Gets. Better!
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Germany) - Autumn, 1903: "Germany's writing style was obviously Scott" Fail! I'm the newbie, 'sceptical lurker'.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1903: FWIW, I didn't establish priors, but besides for Zvi being Turkey, I wasn't confident about labeling anyone. Though, I've missed the past couple RL meetings.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: France and Austria, welcome to OB/LW NYC! Introduce yourselves.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: I deliberately was trying to conceal my identity during the game, and I am curious to know how effective it was. It had Zvi fooled at least. I was most worried about my particular writing habits showing up. Feedback?
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: <reliable narrator voice> No. Way. In. Hell. </voice>
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1903: I wonder if people will be less willing to backstab given the reveal. Knowing this group, I doubt it...
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: I agree, I am loving this right now. :)
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: By the way, I am actually laughing out loud right now. I love it. This is like a whole new level of the puzzle! Plus it passes the tension while I wait for the turn to trigger since I locked in everything a while ago.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I figured you couldn't be Russia both because of how long it took you to communicate with me, contrasted with how obsessed with the game you obviously were, and because you clearly assumed I was Turkey, and several of your communications didn't jive with my model of you if you thought you were talking to me. In particular, the communications surrounding the building of the second southern fleet.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: To actually answer your question, Zach... I figured out Zvi almost immediately for the reasons he posted. The first Tuesday after the game started, I had lots of conversation with Andrew and Zvi, before I had figured out who anyone else was for sure, and that got me to Andrew/Scott being Italy/Germany. Once I had that figured out, Germany's writing style was obviously Scott. Andrew's bad mood post came just a few hours after Italy checked after the Venice backstab. Then this most recent Tuesday, with my guesses in mind, I watched microexpressions on Andrew and Scott, and they reacted appropriately during the discussion for those countries respectively. Incidentally, I dropped MANY clues about being Russia during our in-person discussions. So many that I was shocked no one noticed! But hey, I could still be proven wrong...
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Austria: Turst?
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I didn't realize until you built the second army that it was even an option to build a second army with the first stuck at home. It completely transformed the game. So did Austria's typo on turn two to not get Greece, although in that case I have no idea what happens next. First games are like that. If we decide to play again, quality will be much higher.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Austria) - Autumn, 1903: Yes the mile high walls of text were a give away. I was surprised you did not go turst in your writing at least at first.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1903: Will, same with me. though, being water locked, I think being unfamiliar with the rules cost me a bit more than for other nations
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: And by zero entropy I meant maximum entropy... Christ.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Zvi, I think you underestimated how low of a priority this game was to me (especially in the very beginning). I very nearly didn't sign up to play at all, and I didn't learn the rules until a few turns in. Obsession didn't take long to sink in though...
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I was obvious, if only because my analysis and my statements in-game always line up and the writing style is hard to miss. Also, who else would write this goddamn much?
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: My priors were zero entropy of course. Then people contacted me.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1903: I'm curious how you established those priors
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: If we can get a DM I'm fine with moving to email entirely. And wow. I had you as Germany, but I suppose there's no reason you *couldn't* be Russia aside from coming late to the party.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Oh, my predictions were p~=1 that Zvi is Turkey, Andrew is Italy, Scott is Germany. For Zach I was p~=0.8 he was France and p~=0.2 he was England. Damn you Zach!
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: Well, you asked for it... william...@gmail.com HAH! :D Are you having fun yet, Zvi? Austria makes an excellent point, my older correspondence is already disappearing - we really should save what we have now. Looks like e-mail is strictly superior. We could also move the game entirely over to e-mail, but we would need someone other than Zvi to resolve the turns, or Zvi hands over Turkey to someone else.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Austria, that's not *quite* right. It purges it from the listed here to save time, but if you click on "messages" you get the whole archive.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1903: zdk...@gmail.com
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Austria) - Autumn, 1903: FYI as far as future record keeping this site purges itself. It looks like it keeps a certain amount of characters. I have all of my correspondence with the UK for instance but little with Turkey.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: We are revealing, and allowing outside communication so we don't have to check here all the goddamn time. I still suggest we all communicate here most of the time, since it's an easy way to keep track of everything now and for future record keeping and do it quickly, but use email (or poke with it) when something is urgent. I want to both keep track of everything I said and am keeping a journal of my own thoughts, so we can go over it afterwords, and I hope many of the rest of you are doing the same!
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: we are revealing, as well as moving to e-mail?
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: OK, that's everyone. I can be reached at the...@gmail.com; everyone else who wishes to communicate in this way please share name/contact info here so we know no one's faking.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Autumn, 1903: not dropping out, just had a busy day yesterday (which won't be the case for the next few weeks, at least). I vote yes as well.
16 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1903: i certainly wont interfere with your attack on germany, best of luck to you
16 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1903: not sure how credible this is, but france thinks austria is going to support a move on mun with tyr
16 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1903: You don't need to actively attack Germany- I just want one support. After that, Germany will almost certainly be too distracted to attack you. (Just as they've stopped their offensive even with their number of units. Or, if you're not willing to do that, at least please don't attack Tyrolia- it's going to be the other unit supporting me into Munich, and I might get luck and have Munich be unsupported.
16 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1903: I've been talking to Turkey. It looks like he has you set up to take two centers this year. The plan looks good.
16 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1903: or for me to gain a supply depot before builds
16 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1903: roger, good to go
16 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Yes I meant Sev S Rum H. Good to go?
16 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1903: yes yes, i am getting to you. boh-vie, gal-bud, rum s bul-ser confirmed. sev s bul-ser is impossible, did you mean something else?
16 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1903: i agree we could be good long-term allies against both germany and turkey, but currently it is in my interests to work with them. if either one becomes a significant threat of course i would work with you. right now austria is large, untrustworthy, and sitting on my back door if i go after either germany or turkey
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: OK, that leaves England, who I'm worried is about to slip into Civil Disorder; if he doesn't move then I'll take that as a Yes. I'll also see what we can do about replacing him if he's dropping out; he'll still have four centers so the position will still be viable.
16 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Please confirm since our moves require each other to work.
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1903: i vote yes
16 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I have strong reason to believe that Austria and Germany are also in favor; if either of you is not, please respond here. That leaves England and Russia.
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Looks like Bud is going to be supporting. The best play (if he does as he says) is Boh-Vie, Gal-Bud, Rum S Bul-Ser, Sev S Bul-Ser, I go Bul-Ser Aeg-Gre. If Italy supports me into Greece, great, if not so be it.
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: What do you think the probability is he'll take the bait? He's arguing tactical details enough that my gut says it's genuine, but I'd appreciate your perspective. Did he ever argue tactics with you? The plan he's on at the moment is Gre-Ser, Alb S Aeg-Ion, Ser-Rum, Tyr-Ven, Tri S Tyr-Ven, with Bud up in the open. He might not tell me. The risk is that Bud S Ser-Rum saves Serbia unless we go Gal-Bud, but he could also defend Vie. Getting into Serbia is important because it both wipes out a center of Austria's and gets me an extra relevant unit next turn and one more in reserve. Going to think through the scenarios in my head, but it's a guessing game. Any thoughts? Gal-Bud is also great if he plays total about-face and tries to save Vienna, in which case it's beautiful.
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Now he wants to talk tactics. Won't know best move until we finish talking.
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: I know what Austria promised to me. Dunno how likely he is to fall for it, but he might. Working out the best response.
15 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from France) - Autumn, 1903: Yes
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Sent him a proposal. Hopefully he goes for it.
15 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Italy) - Autumn, 1903: I vote yes
15 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1903: okay, i told him peace was off the table for this turn
15 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1903: you cant get me on your side, at least not this turn. we will talk about terms in the future, obviously
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Austria says he's asking you for peace terms. I think it's in our best interest for you not to pretend to agree, so you can play that card later and we know which world he has to try and be in.
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1903: You'd get a stronger France to help you face Turkey, instead. Also, you don't want Sweden back immediately? Germany is going to be rather preoccupied with me and England in the short term; if I take Munich, his first priority is going to be retaking it, not going after you- and he'll only have 6 armies left to do it with. 5 supply centers are directly threatened by England and I, so the only spare unit he'll have (currently far away from you in the Ruhr anyways) will have to be dedicated to retaking Munich, and later defending against our superior numbers.
15 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1903: i doubt italy will not defend tunis, but that is up to him. i am on board with any reasonable plan, of which yours above qualify
15 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: A general announcement: After getting a sufficient number of affirmative votes (5 of the 6 other players including a non-NYC player) I am revealing my identity; yes, I am the one writing the summaries at lw-dip...@googlegroups.com which are open to all. When I write those summaries I am in "reliable narrator" mode and what I say is trustworthy, since a large part of the point of this game is to give us a basis for analysis and building our rationalism along with our Diplomacy skills. Anything I say as Turkey, of course, is in-game talk so take it as you wish; if I wish to make global commentary as Turkey I'll do it here. I'd also like to state that I'm not alone in that this game is taking up far more time than I would like, because of the fact that we have to constantly check for messages and that the turns last two days. If ALL players approve via lw-diplomacy we can take this game into e-mail mode so it goes faster and stops destroying our lives. Not that I'm not gaining oodles of utility out of the game on net, but the time sink is getting silly, so I vote yes. I assure you non-NYCers that we'd much rather be rational, make good moves and win than help our friends.
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Austria is talking a little. I suspect he's too inept to backstab at this point, but I can try to figure out what he's planning/thinking. He did reveal that he expected to lose Greece last turn (Italy said no to me) which makes his move make even less sense since he'd totally collapse in that case. There are a number of possible moves for us and for Austria now. My gut tells me our best shot to cripple Austria/France is to cut Greece with Aegean, support me into Serbia and support you into Vienna. They can't both fail, we grow and chances are Austria emerges with four centers one way or another. If we're willing risk Tunis on the theory that France doesn't matter and can be dealt with later, Ionian Sea can support a triple attack on Greece instead, you cut support by going to Serbia and that always gets Greece, and he can't hold both Vienna and Venice so that locks him at four no matter what. The advantage of that plan is that going forward from there is easier for us; the disadvantage is that it risks Tunis. I'm talking things over with Italy. Are you good with whichever variation we decide upon?
15 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1903: austria is asking what he can do to get me back on his side. could be a good chance to manipulate him, especially on the western front. i dont want italy crushed too quickly, nor germany to burn through england/france. maybe ask him to move tyr-mun? what moves are you thinking right now on the eastern front? take gre and vie/bud?
15 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1903: end of 1904 works for me, we will re-evaluate then. let me know if you want to coordinate regarding tyr, or if mun is going west. the faster austria falls, the stronger italy remains to defend against france
15 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1903: france moving away his only fleet was a strong sign of trust, i take it your alliance is going well. your biggest problem is not having an army on the mainland, you could convoy into a few different provinces this turn. also, germanys three fleets against your two is going to be impossible to beat in the long run, either you need to disband an army (and thus lose a center this turn somehow) and build a fleet, or france needs to gain a supply depot and build another fleet, which could potentially be bad for you down the road
15 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1903: what would i get out of this deal? germany has clearly moved away from my flank, he cant harm me right now, but he could easily redirect his attention my way again. i would prefer a stronger italy to help me face turkey later on down the road
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1903: Hey Russia! I see you've moved into Bohemia, and are planning to stab Austria. I don't really care, (in fact, I'll support you actively) but I'd prefer you delay until Austria's done with Italy, for obvious reasons. (I can't trust Italy, nor can I afford to keep enough forces watching him.) Instead, would you be willing to have your army in Bohemia support an attack from Burgundy into Munich?
15 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1903: What would it take to get you on my side?
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Doubt Austria is going to negotiate. Rather annoying that he has France, makes things harder.
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1903: Ok, peace treaty until the end of 1904? We can continue to renew it if our co-operation is going well.
14 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1903: maybe we should make the cease fire more explicit. how long does this last? can we dissolve it at any time? do we need warning to end it?
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1903: I guess I will just have to tread watter and see if you go sil or boh. What are you going to disband though after rum falls?
14 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1903: what do you get in exchange for greece? you and turkey gang up against me? that would be slow going for you guys, but possible. the victor in the west (probably germany) would crush us before things get resolved if we carve you up, turkey wont get much more than italy and i do. besides, if turkey becomes obviously too powerful we would turn against him. he is still the long term threat, but i am simply not in a position diplomatically to take him down right now. germany is more exposed, and you and turkey have easier targets than me
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1903: If you guys are carving me up TU will end up with the lionshare.
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1903: I'm considering giving Greece to TU. Why should I not?
14 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1903: definitely fleet to stp, other moves not entirely determined i am guessing austria will bounce tyr and bud into vie. my plan is to move gal-boh, war-gal, and next turn I can support in. if my intel changes in the next six hours, i might move into vie or bud
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1903: Currently my plans are: Swe hold Bal->den Ber->Kiel Munich->Bur What are your plans?
14 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1903: hey, just an idle thought, moving mar-pie could make things very diplomatically interesting, you have leverage on the italy/austria conflict and thus indirectly germany
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: I'm assuming the game won't fire until the deadline this turn with only one lock in.
14 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1903: i agree mun is unlikely to help, but i want to see his response. moving gal-boh and war-gal now. still waiting to lock in if we get any more info today
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: If we trust Germany, and what he said to me seems consistent with your impression of him and with a cease-fire, then Bohemia is the play because it's the one thing Austria isn't going to cover. I doubt Germany is going to actively help against Austria because he is smart and it's not in his interest - he'd rather see the fight last as long as possible. Austria is going to bounce Italy in the Adriatic, so he'll be safe in Venice for a turn and will then use Tyrolia to protect Vienna. We then cut Serbia to secure Greece, and you pick up a center too if he guesses wrong.
14 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1903: austria is being very curt with me, i am telling him i will move on germany. germany and i have a cease fire, and he seems like the type to uphold agreements. i have asked him what he is doing with mun, to potentially coordinate against austria still supporting ukr-rum, and supporting bud-vie barring further notice. if germany moves mun-tyr after all, i go gal-bud. i still like gal-boh, war-gal as a move, since it applies a lot of pressure next turn
14 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1903: oh, and munich too, since that matters against austria
14 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1903: fortunately austria still believed that i would not attack him, and built a fleet in tri. this makes the assault possible. no harm, no foul, this time. nonetheless, this made france and austria wary now. i trust you to uphold the agreements you make, there are certain agreements i would make with you and not others, of which diplomatic confidentiality is one. i also believe your cease fire and intend to move against austria i think you and england are too risk averse to displaying hostility towards each other. the build in kie would be more aggressive, but you have to move that fleet up somehow anyway give me your list of moves for swe, baltic, and ber, so that we can coordinate most effectively
14 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Austria isn't talking at all so far. Very frustrating and means he might well protect Greece but does mean I keep my credibility to set him up later. My intelligence so far in other areas and my gut instincts point to Germany not heading your way for at least a year but it wouldn't shock me; I'd say 20% chance. Default plan now becomes to get into Romania this turn, then assuming he protected Greece you hit Serbia to cut support so I get into Greece no matter what he does.
13 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1903: because i need an army to make any headway
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1903: If ukr-rum why not just leave rum?
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Definitely no reason to lock in yet. I'll talk to Austria and see what I can get him to agree to.
13 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1903: germany and i have a cease fire, the fleet has to be for england. they are both hesitant to reveal their enmity towards each other france communicates very sparsely with me. i will let you know when i know more about the western diplomatic situation right now my move is to support bud-vie, but it seems worth waiting if we can get any insight into austrias thinking
13 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1903: ukr-rum, supported by sev, bounces. fleet bounces in the north. gal-sil supported by war. we are in a good position to take germany down next turn, turkey stays contained, you continue progress against italy
13 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1903: at this point i just suggest doing what turkey says. assume austria is going down, because that is the only good state of the world
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1903: And I apologise again for repeating what you said to France. In future I shall ask your permission before quoting you, even if it doesn't seem secret.
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1903: As far as the fleet goes... as long as you don't tell anyone, because this is secret, it's heading west because if I built the fleet in Kiel it would look like I was about to stab England. There are other tactical considerations as well. Also, if I was going to attack you, I would have built two armies - only one of your SC's is easily reachable by coast, so building more fleets makes little sense for attacking you.
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1903: I told France, but I havn't told anyone else. Sorry about that, I didn't really think it needed to be kept secret.
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1903: How do you not lose Rum?
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Actually, if Austria is going to do what I think he's going to do, there's a really evil thing you can do: Support Austria's move of Budapest to Vienna! He then succeeds in that move, and if I got into Greece then we can support me into Serbia, which then gives me the leverage to get you into Budapest.
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1903: Why do you need Ukraine?
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: I asked, no reply yet. His builds don't actually make sense. If he's going after you, building two armies is much better as he'd want to move into Prussia while doing a convoy into Livonia or Sweden, and the second fleet doesn't have much to do, but he might not realize that. You said France wants to attack Germany; that's the only reason I don't think Germany is headed for England. We can spare an army to defend the north, if you want to, although it makes things slower and makes it less likely you'll pick up Vienna or Budapest this year; by far the best thing to do with it would be to send it to Livonia. The fleet can try to block Finland, which seems better than holding, or it can retreat back into St. Petersburg proper. It depends on our read on Germany (and England) in the north, and on Austria's plan if we can find out what it is. I certainly wouldn't pass up a shot at Vienna if it looked like it would work.
13 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1903: i correctly guessed germany was going to attack me and so i disbanded the southern fleet. the plan remains to support move into silesia. i am sure austria is not thrilled with the army in galicia, but it wont be there long
13 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1903: well, that was an interesting build by germany. i am glad i guessed right and disbanded my southern fleet. this suggests he is coming after me, it gives you and france a prime opportunity to make some gains and break the stalemate
13 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1903: i had to go turkey or germany, and at the last minute i decided germany was most likely to attack me. sure enough, look at his builds, fleet in berlin means he is going for st petersburg. we have enough units to keep turkey contained, and then i come back to kill him later. plan remains support move into silesia this turn
13 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1903: what about germany though? fleet in ber suggests he is coming for me, stp is in danger
13 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1903: you were the only one i talked to about our cease-fire agreement, so the leak came from you or france guessed you really built that fleet in berlin to move it west?
13 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Trying to figure out if he's going to leave Vienna open. My best guess right now is he will use a self bounce with Tyrolia and Budapest, and support me into Romania with Serbia. That lets you waltz into Romania with Ukraine, move Galicia over to Bohemia and slide Warsaw into Galicia while I strike at an unsupported Greece, then in the fall we strike at Serbia and Vienna.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Ignore the support request, of course, that was for Austria. Setting him up.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Not that it would save him anyway at this point, of course, but it's like he's not even trying.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Austria thinks he has a strong negotiating position and isn't willing to give up Greece. It's kind of cute that he doesn't realize he's already at war on two fronts and doesn't have much choice.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1903: Are you offering support from both Serbia and Budapest this turn?
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1903: ------------- wow I guess you are not afraid of TU.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: Also, feel free to point out to him that when you disband in Galicia (which he thinks you're doing) it'll be obvious to 'wicked smart' Turkey that you've made a deal with him of some kind whether you two hit the button together or not. No reason not to get on with the show.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1902: Interesting. I wonder why you are telling me this? Obviously Austria wants a peace treaty with Galicia as a DMZ as you currently control Galicia and threaten two of their supply centres. Also, I wouldn't listen too much to what France says, I don't think France understands how to play very well, for instance he has built 4 armies and 1 fleet, meaning that a lot of his forces cannot be brought to bear upon me. As far as the truce goes, I shall vacate the Baltic sea next turn and move all my forces west.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: I pointed out that him attacking Romania is more than a little risky if you keep Galicia in place (since he needs three units to cover Venice), and that if you disband Warsaw or Gulf of Bothnia we can't actually take Romania at all, but promised it to him if he gets you to disband in the south and he wants to do it. Of course, I won't do it from anywhere but Serbia...
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: ---- You at peace with GE?
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: Figured TU tipped me off with some stupid advice. I think they will go for Greece the first turn.
12 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1902: from austria, after agreeing to disband gal Going to hold off pressing my button for a bit, TU is crazy smart if he sees we both pushed at the same time he may think of a better strat. Going to talk up TU while I wait see If I can get him to assist me into rum.
12 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: he has no choice but to fight you for venice now, he has to disband the eastern med fleet and ally with turkey. you could give it back to him and maybe he would work with us
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: ------ press you ready now so TU sees. ------ What can you tell me about IT. What do you mean by he is not with us?
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: Going to hold off pressing my button for a bit, TU is crazy smart if he sees we both pushed at the same time he may think of a better strat. Going to talk up TU while I wait see If I can get him to assist me into rum.
12 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: my build orders are in, lets do this
12 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i agree this would be a good move, he loses at least one supply center for next build. the black sea has to be taken the next turn though, to convoy in armies. we cant dislodge him without armies in turkey, because you cant get past con without a fleet of your own down there, and italy isnt with us anymore
12 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: france and austria are allied, but i think france would send at most one army against you. germany appears to be the target, they are trying to ally with me and england against him. dont despair, this game is far from over
12 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1902: from france So, I hear that you've set up a truce with Germany in order to fight Austria (please tell me if this isn't true). I'd like to suggest that you instead ally with Austria against Germany; Germany is by far the bigger threat to you, as they're demonstrably aggressive, dug in in the East, and currently the most powerful nation, while Austria is actively seeking a peace treaty with you (through an intermediary- me). They're requesting that Galicia be established as a DMZ.
12 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i have no interest in conflict, i cant make any headway against austria, and a fleet build in tri would allow him to swallow italy quickly. i either need to go after germany or turkey. if i disband that tank i have no choice but to attack turkey. if you want me to attack germany, the army support moves into silesia next turn, and gal is dmz. germany will go down quickly with all four of us together
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1902: So, I hear that you've set up a truce with Germany in order to fight Austria (please tell me if this isn't true). I'd like to suggest that you instead ally with Austria against Germany; Germany is by far the bigger threat to you, as they're demonstrably aggressive, dug in in the East, and currently the most powerful nation, while Austria is actively seeking a peace treaty with you (through an intermediary- me). They're requesting that Galicia be established as a DMZ.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: Idea for you: Disband gal, move sev to armania, move ukrain to sev, assist me into bul from rum. protect st.p from GOB. ------------- Skip taking the black sea and go straight for the centers?
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1902: That about sums it up. I'm thinking about tactics now. Your input is appreciated.
12 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1902: Agreed: cease fire.
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: Don't you have to disband one unit eventually? I count 6 units 5 supply centers. You going to move gil into siles?
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: Keep Sev and disband Rom. Sev is useful because you can use it for support into Rom with an army, which is important for leverage into Austria, and to cover Sev (trust but verify!) I'll see what Austria wants to do, and we'll plan things from there. France's note is interesting. If he's saying that to you it means he pretty much has to go east rather than north, or at least he currently plans to. The problem is that it's very hard for England to DO anything and France doesn't have much leverage either; it's not clear Germany doesn't just *win* against both of them, but I will do my best to get them working together. Germany winning this war isn't good for any of us.
11 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1902: france and austria appear to be in an alliance
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1902: France threatened to crush me with the aid of austria.
11 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: from france England and you do something up north that stops the German advance. I take Munich, supported by Austria, and probably lose Burgundy. England takes Belgium, supported by me. Germany loses SC's, we gain them, we wiped him out. And, on a side note, would you be willing to stop attacking Austria until the war with Germany has been resolved, and to set up Galicia as a DMZ?
11 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1902: from france England and you do something up north that stops the German advance. I take Munich, supported by Austria, and probably lose Burgundy. England takes Belgium, supported by me. Germany loses SC's, we gain them, we wiped him out. And, on a side note, would you be willing to stop attacking Austria until the war with Germany has been resolved, and to set up Galicia as a DMZ?
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1902: England and you do something up north that stops the German advance. I take Munich, supported by Austria, and probably lose Burgundy. England takes Belgium, supported by me. Germany loses SC's, we gain them, we wiped him out. And, on a side note, would you be willing to stop attacking Austria until the war with Germany has been resolved, and to set up Galicia as a DMZ?
11 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i needed to get an army into gal so i could support move into silesia. you have much to gain in italy, stupid not to build a fleet in tri this turn. while you expand in italy, together we can hold germany and crush turkey
11 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: turkey realizes that austria doesnt understand the concept of allies, and he is starting to get big, i think he will work with us for now. he also realizes germany will be a much bigger threat and he needs to move quickly. what is your diplomatic situation with france? he is barely talking to me, right now he is encouraging me to work with england to attack germany. i think we have to assume france and germany are allied at this point
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1902: It's a shame, if Austria worked with us for another year we'd have crushed Turkey.
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1902: Yep
11 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1902: this worked out well, i did not lose rum and can still disband a southern fleet. i am willing to trust you at this point, and i certainly dont trust austria. which to disband? a fleet in rum doesnt seem very useful, unless it is just holding while my armies move north
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: If you go to armania with fleet then ukr -> sev next turn we get either bul or anka. TU would collapse then. You get east I get west.
11 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: germany may or may not ultimately decide to attack me, he took sweden but also moved vie-tyr. i asked him if he would focus west and let me attack austria, his build this turn will reveal a lot. austria is asking me to disband gal or he will build two armies on my border, which keeps him off your back. my moves with turkey worked well, i can still disband one fleet and he didnt take my supply depot. you disbanding eastern med? this commits us to working with turkey for the near term. i am still not convinced austria isnt just a pawn of turkey somehow, and our disbands will destroy us, but if austria/turkey/germany are allied we are dead anyway
11 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: Austria said he would support me, so I thought it would work either way and I couldn't go Bul-Rom because I felt the need to cover Bulgaria against an Austrian stab and Smyrna against a Turkish stab, in addition to trusting you, and any combination of the three, which precluded the other move. Austria has no idea what it means to have allies, it's kind of sad. Here's my proposal: You'll retreat the northern fleet and disband Rumania, then Sevastopol can be used as a support unit and with Germany leaving Silesia and you in Galicia we can move Ukraine into Romania safely. If you go down to one southern fleet, I will trust you, you can keep Romania and we can clean up the fleets from the black sea later. Italy took a stab at me cause it didn't cost him anything, but I won't hold it against him. Austria will soon be forced to trust me, and he will pay the price.
11 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1902: your builds this turn are very important. presumably you are going to swallow england with france. i am willing to cease fire with you and let you wrap things up out west, if you let me concentrate on austria for now
11 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1902: coordinate with you against germany, rather
11 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1902: losing that supply depot hurt, but i understand you did not want to reveal the alliance. still i think it is obvious from the moves germany is against you, and this worsens our position. france asked me to coordinate with you against england, still have no idea what he is playing at, i am hoping he attacks germany
11 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1902: england and i will be working together. what is your plan?
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: Austria said he would support me, so I thought it would work either way and I couldn't go Bul-Rom because I felt the need to cover Bulgaria against an Austrian stab and Smyrna against a Turkish stab, in addition to trusting you, and any combination of the three, which precluded the other move. Austria has no idea what it means to have allies, it's kind of sad. Here's my proposal: You'll retreat the northern fleet and disband Rumania, then Sevastopol can be used as a support unit and with Germany leaving Silesia and you in Galicia we can move Ukraine into Romania safely. If you go down to one southern fleet, I will trust you, you can keep Romania and we can clean up the fleets from the black sea later. Italy took a stab at me cause it didn't cost him anything, but I won't hold it against him. Austria will soon be forced to trust me, and he will pay the price.
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: I think you have one unit to disband after you retreat your fleet from Sweden. Please consider disbanding Gal. I don't want to have to build two armies on your boarder. I would like to remain neutral but I don't see how I could not join TU if Gal stays.
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1902: Can you coordinate your counterattack with England? They're definitely against Germany, but didn't want to tip their hand too early.
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1902: But you told me you were going to attack turkey before I moved, plus I havn't actually attacked you yet, so I'm attacking you after you attacked turkey as well.
11 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i am almost certain turkey will move against rum again, you can hit bulgaria to cut support
11 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i am going ukr s war-gal, mos-war, sev s rum-bla. this way you can go bul-rum, get the depot, and i bump you from black sea. then i disband a fleet, and we move on austria from there. i dont trust you to hold both rum and the black sea, mostly because i dont trust you to trust me now
11 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: if this turn you allow him to retake ven, then yes i see a chance at peace. if you attack turkey with us, i see a chance at peace i still think our best option is to take out turkey, except now we have to consider germany as well. i have no choice but to defend north, but with my two fleets i can still push turkey out of the black sea, which greatly strengthens our position. if you apply some pressure on germany then i at least survive and can continue helping with turkey
11 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1902: convenient excuse, since we attacked each other on the same turn as you submitted your orders to move east. your moves are an opportunistic attack
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1902: Yes, but I did have a mutual defence pact with Turkey, and you attacked Turkey so what did you think would happen?
11 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1902: Yes, but I did have a mutual defence pact with Turkey, and you attacked Turkey so what did you think would happen?
10 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1902: This is intense. We need to work with Turkey.
10 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: Think I have any chance at making peace with Italy?
10 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: I wish england was a smarter player...
10 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1902: I agree. I'm strategizing on the best way to balance getting my troops to where they can be useful vs. revealing the alliance. As far as I can tell, France is ok though this next turn should reveal some truths.
10 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: an even bigger risk is if france and germany are now allied. combined they can swallow england, and if germany also pushes into my territory successfully those two will be unstoppable
10 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1902: austria tells me he is not committed to any side yet, but that he thinks it is not in his interest for me to fall and that he does not like germanys aggression. we may yet have a chance against a france/germany alliance. i still think you should use norway to support sweden, germany cant be allowed another build or you are dead as well
10 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: austria tells me he is not committed to any side yet, but that he doesnt think it is in his interest to see me fall. i will try to convince him to move against germany and/or turkey. not sure what to do with my fleets yet
10 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1902: thats the wrong way to holland
10 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i maintain that turkey followed by germany are the biggest threats. germanys attack and your backstab make it a lot more likely i have to ally with turkey to survive now, made even more precarious by my earlier backstabs against him. your sheer size makes you a target, so be careful. if you want to slow germanys advance into my territory, move vie-boh to apply some pressure to his flank. i highly recommend damaging turkey in some way as well, maybe support move into bul?
10 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: I have to say though that I don't think it is in my interest to have you fall. Germany's entry into the fray seems a bit unfair.
10 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1902: I'm not sure. I am not committed to any side yet.
10 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1902: that was a wonderful little move you did there. what now?
10 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: 03:35 PM not sure if i agree yet, losing a supply depot to you is a dangerous move. i would rather see italy gain a depot at the expense of austria before the build. would you support him into greece? ~03:39 PM No. That would mean trusting you AND trusting Italy AND backstabbing Austria in order to not grow. I'd be crazy to do that. There are two possible worlds. If I'm facing all three of you right now, I'm dead and what I agree to matters little; an Italy that agreed to a fake stab isn't backing down and if you insist on keeping your fleets with Germany on your northern flank we will lose even if the two of us work together. If I'm allied to Austria, I'm also allied to Germany and it's easy to see that we'll win; even if Romania doesn't fall Austria will have 6 units that matter, I will have 4 and Germany will have 3. You'll have 5 and Italy 3. So either I have the upper hand or I am already dead.
10 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: No. That would mean trusting you AND trusting Italy AND backstabbing Austria in order to not grow. I'd be crazy to do that. There are two possible worlds. If I'm facing all three of you right now, I'm dead and what I agree to matters little; an Italy that agreed to a fake stab isn't backing down and if you insist on keeping your fleets with Germany on your northern flank we will lose even if the two of us work together. If I'm allied to Austria, I'm also allied to Germany and it's easy to see that we'll win; even if Romania doesn't fall Austria will have 6 units that matter, I will have 4 and Germany will have 3. You'll have 5 and Italy 3. So either I have the upper hand or I am already dead.
10 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1902: not sure if i agree yet, losing a supply depot to you is a dangerous move. i would rather see italy gain a depot at the expense of austria before the build. would you support him into greece?
10 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i dont see much choice except to play ball with turkey, as much as i think that is dangerous. fucking austria!
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1902: Yeah, I'm with you.
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: This turn, he's no doubt going to go Vienna-Galicia and give Serbia and Greece support orders. Venice holds. He then builds A Budapest and A/F Trieste (my guess is fleet but who knows). After that it depends on the tactical situation but I expect at least two units to go west, then he will make a play for Galicia and perhaps Romania depending on our negotiations, and I should be able to set him up to abandon or not defend Greece, after which I get leverage into Serbia and he falls apart. At the very least, I will know what supports and moves he wants from me, which will let me figure out the rest.
9 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1902: what is austria going to do?
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: turkey sent me this This is going to be long, because doing this is complicated, and because frankly I love this sort of thing and think it's fun to chart it out, but I believe it is in both our interests. In my opinion we simply can't afford to have three useless fleets in this battle with Austria at six centers and still defend (or just as important, show you CAN defend) your northern flank at all. Given your response to this proposal last time I made it was to stab me (twice), I recognize you may not feel the same way. If you disagree, I'm willing to listen to your plan, but at least one must go. My proposal is: This turn, I will do what I would do anyway. I will attack Romania, either from Bulgaria or Black Sea (not saying which). Moscow to Warsaw (which we half hope bounces so we can use the army in the north), Warsaw to Galicia and Ukraine supports Warsaw to Galicia. That should normally get you into Galicia. You will not support your unit in Romania, and it will be destroyed. Sweden will retreat to defend St Petersburg and you will disband your southern fleet. At that point, I will know I can trust you. I will then attempt to convince Germany (I estimate 75% chance this will work if France plays ball which he should and it's clear you're prepared to defend yourself in the north) to make peace with you and backstab England together with France, which he should be willing to do since England only has two fleets and will be easy prey for him if he builds two more fleets; he'll keep Sweden but there won't be any more damage, and it's possible the army in Silesia can be used on our side. Your north side is now secure for a few years. The northern fleet heads home but the other three units are free to attack. Italy can get all three surviving units into battle quickly (he confirmed he'd heard from you, but didn't say if he'd play ball) either through Adriatic Sea or a convoy to Apulia, then disbanding the one that doesn't matter; he doesn't have to guard Ionian Sea since Austria's fleets will be bottled up (I expect him to build a second one but he might not). Italy's play frees up my resources, so I can bring my southern fleet and one or two armies to bear right away. Add in your armies in Galicia and Ukraine and that's enough to win the war, leaving a second unit of yours to defend the north if you like or we can work faster with all three. We put pressure on multiple centers right away and I'll return Romania to you; my share of the spoils is Serbia and Greece, you get Romania and Budapest, Italy gets Trieste and you can negotiate with him over Vienna. I will vacate the Black Sea once it is no longer tactically useful against Austria along with the previously offered agreements: DMZ in Armenia and Black Sea, No fleets for either of us in Black Sea, Sevastopol, Romania, Bulgaria (nc) or Ankara. After that, my natural next move is to head west into the Ionian together with whoever wins the west, who oddly enough I'm guessing will be France, which then allies the three of us against Germany, who will likely be a monster at this point and need to be stopped, but of course a lot will happen between now and then and we'll see where we are.
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: This is going to be long, because doing this is complicated, and because frankly I love this sort of thing and think it's fun to chart it out, but I believe it is in both our interests. In my opinion we simply can't afford to have three useless fleets in this battle with Austria at six centers and still defend (or just as important, show you CAN defend) your northern flank at all. Given your response to this proposal last time I made it was to stab me (twice), I recognize you may not feel the same way. If you disagree, I'm willing to listen to your plan, but at least one must go. My proposal is: This turn, I will do what I would do anyway. I will attack Romania, either from Bulgaria or Black Sea (not saying which). Moscow to Warsaw (which we half hope bounces so we can use the army in the north), Warsaw to Galicia and Ukraine supports Warsaw to Galicia. That should normally get you into Galicia. You will not support your unit in Romania, and it will be destroyed. Sweden will retreat to defend St Petersburg and you will disband your southern fleet. At that point, I will know I can trust you. I will then attempt to convince Germany (I estimate 75% chance this will work if France plays ball which he should and it's clear you're prepared to defend yourself in the north) to make peace with you and backstab England together with France, which he should be willing to do since England only has two fleets and will be easy prey for him if he builds two more fleets; he'll keep Sweden but there won't be any more damage, and it's possible the army in Silesia can be used on our side. Your north side is now secure for a few years. The northern fleet heads home but the other three units are free to attack. Italy can get all three surviving units into battle quickly (he confirmed he'd heard from you, but didn't say if he'd play ball) either through Adriatic Sea or a convoy to Apulia, then disbanding the one that doesn't matter; he doesn't have to guard Ionian Sea since Austria's fleets will be bottled up (I expect him to build a second one but he might not). Italy's play frees up my resources, so I can bring my southern fleet and one or two armies to bear right away. Add in your armies in Galicia and Ukraine and that's enough to win the war, leaving a second unit of yours to defend the north if you like or we can work faster with all three. We put pressure on multiple centers right away and I'll return Romania to you; my share of the spoils is Serbia and Greece, you get Romania and Budapest, Italy gets Trieste and you can negotiate with him over Vienna. I will vacate the Black Sea once it is no longer tactically useful against Austria along with the previously offered agreements: DMZ in Armenia and Black Sea, No fleets for either of us in Black Sea, Sevastopol, Romania, Bulgaria (nc) or Ankara. After that, my natural next move is to head west into the Ionian together with whoever wins the west, who oddly enough I'm guessing will be France, which then allies the three of us against Germany, who will likely be a monster at this point and need to be stopped, but of course a lot will happen between now and then and we'll see where we are.
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: so lets talk strategy then, turkey is at least offering to play ball. if he screws us we are dead anyway. in order to restore the balance of power you need a supply depot at austrias expense. turkey probably wont offer to support you in doing that, but i will at least try. second best is turkey gets an austrian depot, which is at least neutral for us, though it makes turkey more dangerous. i dont want to go to turkey without a well-formed plan, so give me your southern thoughts
9 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i have not heard anything from france yet this turn, i will let you know when i do. i made a hard sell to him that allying with you against germany is the smartest play, since a strong germany will be a major threat, and germany is weak right now with split forces. if france/germany are allied we are in serious trouble
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1902: FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK! After all that bitching about me having an army in Venice he moves Tri->Ven! Turkey beat us. We need to work with him to get Austria, we can't beat Austria on our own. And after he'll likely stab us before we can get him. Or he'll just be bigger and can beat us at any time he chooses. You and me are dead without an alliance with turkey. T/A will get me, and T/A/G will get you. I should never have gone for France.
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1902: I could make this plan work diplomatically only if I can get France to trust me (which could be difficult). Also, how much do you trust France? Look how Germany turned his armies and fleets towards his eastern border. The plan was to carve up france, then turn east. Since he's doing this prematurely, I suspect he may have cut a deal with France (which would be bad for both of us). Either way, I'll see if I can get anything out of F diplomatically.
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: turkey is pretending to be amenable, at least. thoughts on possible moves? id like to get turkey to attack austria if possible, but i also dont want him to get more supply depots. maybe get turkey to support one of your moves?
9 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1902: you have two choices, side with england or side with germany. england is clearly the weaker player, he will be easy for you to swallow once he helps you with germany. germany, on the other hand, if he gets rolling then he might be unstoppable. i pointed out to england that germany is getting two more builds, while england is behind one and unlikely to get more soon, and with germany moving east you are going to survive a long time. the best thing for germany is for you and england to get tied up in war while he rapidly expands
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: turkey is still willing to talk to me. austria is playing all sides and trying to grab depots. working with turkey for a very short time could possibly be beneficial, but he is still and always will be my long run target. i dont trust austria, and it would be useful to carve him up. you need to make sure you get back enough depots from such an arrangement though, turkey must be contained. an england/france alliance against germany allows me to hold the line, and we take out the second biggest threat, while i can focus my efforts south
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: France is going to survive for a long time because of England's tactical blunders; He's going to stay at 5 centers for at least one year and probably two. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Germany makes a deal with France and turns on England. I will mention it to Italy; probably good to send him a feeler as well. What do you propose?
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: giving england the hard sell, pointing out germany is in position to grow rapidly and he is not, and france can hold them at bay. if you and france are allied, that makes france even more able to resist
9 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1902: look at it this way. germany is going to support move into sweden next turn, and got belgium this turn, so that is two new builds. germany having split his armies, france has enough strength to keep you two at bay for a long time, which means you wont be getting new builds anytime soon. you are short on builds, germany is adding two more, and you two are inevitably going to war. your fastest way to expand is to push into germany with the help of france. if norway support-holds sweden, we bounce his attack and keep a supply depot out of his hands
9 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1902: i am willing to talk. austria was very shortsighted in that move, maybe we can agree on a temporary peace with italy to split him three ways and go from there. surprised germany split his forces and moved on two fronts, france will be much harder to digest now
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1902: Austria is playing both sides to try and grab centers, Germany (and by implication, England later on) are on the march in the north and I have my own problems. If you're willing to talk, so am I. If not, I'm curious as to why exactly you're so out to get me when all my moves were due to agreements we made in advance but you can explain it after the game.
9 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1902: italy is allied with me already, he has to be if austria and turkey are together. the move into france was obviously just opportunistic (look at his fleet moves), and now that austria backstabbed him i highly doubt italy wants war with france. germany is one of the strongest players after turkey, this is a golden opportunity for you two to take out a major threat and grow while i distract the triple alliance
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: proposed the alliance to them as well
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Autumn, 1902: Italy has said that he's going to form an Alliance with France and yourself? By the way he's pushing into Marseilles, I doubt that very much.
9 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Autumn, 1902: it looks like austria and germany have decided to join turkey after all. i think the best approach is for you and france to join me and italy against them. germany attacking me means his western front is weak, you two combined could easily push into german homelands. get him on the defensive, so i can hold austria and turkey at bay
9 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1902: looks like austria and germany sided with turkey, which fortunately takes some pressure off of you. i recommend that you and england join me and italy against the three of them. if i am lost, turkey escapes and everyone loses
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1902: well that is unfortunate, austria let the ai out of the box. looks like germany is moving on me as well. my battle is about to get a lot more defensive. i suggest we ally with france and england
9 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1902: ser-bul, bud s ukr-rum, tri-alb, correct. that gives you a supported move into greece next turn. when we see what turkey does we will know what to do from there
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1902: Ok, orders in in case I don't get back to the game. Will check in the morn for any idea you have for my fleet.
9 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1902: Ok so merging your and italy's advice my moves would be: ser-bal attack, Bud support UKR-Rum, Tri-alb correct?
9 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1902: turkey is still trying to ally with me, he is offering to attack romania to destroy my fleet, so definitely go ser-bal to cut his support, and bud supporting my ukr-rum move. next turn, i convoy my army into turkey and you take greece, regardless of whatever italy does. do not listen to turkey, or you will let the ai out of the box
9 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1902: turkey is still trying to ally with me, he is offering to attack romania to destroy the fleet. good call
8 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1902: You didn't propose anything so I might as well try and make a suggestion. I've got nothing to lose, and believe it or not there's still a way. We can still do the disband-the-fleet trick, potentially (and you'd keep one around for a while at least in Sevastopol where it doesn't get in the way). Austria's worried about Italy and only has four units so good chance we can show him a fight and then catch him totally unawares in the fall; it can even be *his* unit in Romania and the trick works just as well since it's then logical of him to expose Serbia and the fleet can snag Greece. Alternatively, I could attack Romania from the Black Sea, wiping out your fleet, then you could re-attack Romania and kill my fleet off. Could potentially fool Austria for the whole year. Italy is likely interested as well (and will certainly be at least neutral unless you know otherwise). If the second fleet is gone and the Black Sea secure I'd have no reason NOT to trust you, since you can't retaliate, and you know you can trust me because I can trust you and because it's in my interest to play along: Why would I fight a long battle I may not even be able to win and probably hand the game to England/Germany when I can take Austria apart quickly instead? Also, the story of being double stabbed and STILL making the alliance work would be so unbelievably cool and full of bonus points for me that there's no way I'd wreck it. The alternative even if you get Austria is that unless you also have Italy you're on the wrong side of a four-on-three. Italy/Germany/England/Turkey becomes a de facto quadruple alliance, and even if I die before the cavalry can save me you'll be flanked and France will be dead.
8 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1902: good call on the bounce, he may well try that, i told austria to go ser-bul to cut possible support. if turkey goes for greece then con-bul bounces, and next turn austria can support move against his lone army there
8 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1902: if turkey goes black-rum supported by bul-rum, that will bounce my attack against the black sea, and we cant let him control that territory. to prevent this, move ser-bul to cut his support, have bud support my ukr-rum move to make sure that doesnt bounce if turkey goes bul-gre con-bul after all, he takes greece, other army bounces back to con. next turn you support move against his lone army in greece, he disbands, and you still get the supply center before your next build
8 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1902: Turkey knows that you're going to attack him. He'll likely move con->Bul, bul->Greece. Or he can attack Romania. He's a very good tactical player so he may very well do something I don't expect. I think Black sea to romania supported by Bulgaria bounces Romania to black sea supported by Sevastopol. Unless austria cuts support.
8 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1902: what do you think turkey will do?
8 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1902: presumably you have some insight from your negotiations with him. are you coordinating with him to backstab me? that would give us a better idea of his thinking on possible moves this turn
8 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1902: italy left his options open, ven-pie was an opportunistic move supposing he is with us. he is debating on moving fleet to aegean or east med i think you should do tri-alb, ser-gre and bud-ser. this blocks him from taking greece if he tries, and you can support move to gre or bul next turn. vie has two options, bounce me in gal or move to bud. bouncing means we both still have two armies in central europe, which protects against a possible german backstab (very much worth considering), and signals we dont fully trust each other. if you move to bud, i move to gal, and we can push forward with full strength. not sure if that is even necessary, if italy is truly on board, but we cant count on that for sure wondering what turkey might do, honestly. black sea is lost, so he might move the fleet anyway. bul-gre is a supply center play, bul-rum would try to cut my support if he thinks i would be dumb enough to support instead of move from there. i am tempted to leave rum unoccupied, in case he moves in that army, so we can kill it next turn. but turkey is not stupid either, and no move of his seems especially obvious to me. not sure about con either. will give this some more thought...
8 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1902: Was wondering the same. Trying to figure out what IT is doing. Want to be coordinated. What moves should I be making to help you?
8 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1902: what are your proposed moves?
8 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1902: okay. my fleet in sweden is holding obviously, no interest in northern conflict, you can move the den army if you so choose
8 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1902: considering not moving ukr-rum next turn, if austria and turkey are allied then rum is gone. plus if turkey moves in to cut support and winds up in the province instead, his army is gone next turn. also moving war-gal, if austria lets me in that would be a sign of trust, otherwise we bounce and it gives us some northern armies just in case of england/germany backstab
8 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1902: Moving it into Holland actually.
7 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1902: italy is being opportunistic, the rest of his forces aren't coming after you
7 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1902: got some plans for that ship in kie?
7 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Spring, 1902: Supposedly Austria asked Italy to retreat from Venice. For now, I'm assuming that they're planning to attack Marseilles with Germany.
7 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1902: my fleets are going for the black sea of course, and ukr-rum mos-ukr. bounce in gal again, unless you trust me to move my army up
7 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1902: yes, sev is supporting rum-black, thank you. also ukr-rum and mos-ukr, need to talk to austria about the army in warsaw. austria still makes me very nervous
7 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1902: my plan is to hold my fleet on sweden. i will be busy with turkey and not interested in northern conflict, i will not take norway if you decide to use that fleet elsewhere
7 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1902: I bring offers of peace, but for now I presume we are at war. Precommitement: If you tell me the truth from this point on, I will play only to survive as long as possible or if another player's actions cause it I will actively favor you. However, If I catch you lying to me again, for any reason, and I haven't broken any promises I've made to you prior to that, I will no longer speak to you in-game and will consider us at permanent war. If then I conclude that I cannot survive, I will attempt to hurt your position as much as possible before I go. (Of course, no meta gaming. In game retaliation only.) What's done is done. You've now outright lied to me twice, this second time completely pointlessly as *I had said I would build F Smyrna regardless of your stated intent* since it's so bad to expose the Aegean Sea. You could have simply said "I will take your statements under advisement" or even nothing at all, and built the fleet. Clearly you are now going to be in a commanding position in any negotiation or deal we make, but that is life. I am angry but I am committed to working with what is, not what might have been. Thus, if you still wish to make peace and work with me rather than against me, I am willing to cooperate in your plans whatever they may be. I will not move a second fleet adjacent to the Black Sea (aka no fleet in Con or Ank, including builds) while I continue to hold it, to give you incentive not to take it. Let me know if there is anything else that would change things.
7 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1902: The fleet there was hostile to me. I just need to figure out where he's going to movie it to, either Agien or East Mediterranean, and move to the other one. Also, you're Sea support Rum->Black sea right? If you do it the other way he'll cut your support.
7 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1902: hasn't mentioned anything to me so far. My word of Norway in exchange for North/Nor Sea peace still stands.
7 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1902: excellent, turkey believed me and built in smy, it has begun. still worried about an austrian double-cross. germany agreed turkey is a threat and said he would not interfere, i asked england to do the same
7 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1902: i am truly sorry
7 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1902: turkey will try to draw up an alliance with you against me, now that i have built a fleet in sevastopol. he is a strong player, and needs to be taken out quickly for all of our benefit, i recommend that you do not interfere
7 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1902: okay, the backstab is complete, this is war with turkey now. he will try to ally with you against me. i recommend letting me take care of him
7 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: agreed. and so it is done, turkeys fate is sealed. godspeed my friend
7 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: I'll give you con and ank. Else I don't see a three way peace.
7 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: England unless you are waiting on dipl, you are not, press your ready button.
7 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1901: I would not advise siding with Turkey against Austria. Once Turkey gets going he could start to steamroller, and many things could go wrong with your alliance with Italy, such as Italy getting bogged down fighting someone else or simply being uncooperative. As you say, Turkey does seem strong, so it is in everyone's interests to stop him steamrolling through Austria.
7 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: That's easy to say, harder to execute. In killing Turkey I'll likely end up with Smyrna. You may end up with Budapest. We're talking about 10 territories. I'm not sure how the fighting will go down just yet. Once it's all over, we'll see where we both stand.
6 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: austria is asking how to split the territories. it is an awkward place for a three way split. we can make up an answer for him, but we still need to split our own piece of the pie. i get turkey bul and rum, you get austria ser and gre?
6 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: i am sure he does, that was my proposal to you, presumably youll deal with italy afterward. maybe offer gre smy?
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: IT probably wants something.
6 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: i get con ank smy, you get gre bul rum
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: How many of the centers do you plan on taking?
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1901: A fine plan for all concerned.
6 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: mediterranean, you have to expand somewhere. once we are done with turkey i will let you disband my southern fleets, to make that commitment credible
6 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1901: the orders were preliminary of course. i agree that your first turn was not blatantly offensive towards me, and that you declined the opportunity to backstab me last turn, so i dont think you are trying to attack me, but disbanding the fleet was a bit too much to swallow. i like your plan to not build in sev, and move the fleet back to defend next turn. enjoy that serbian vacation, sir, see you in vienna
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: what is med?
6 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: i think he believes you when i build a fleet at sev, turkey will immediately try to ally with you against me. i cannot emphasize enough how much of a threat he is, and how such an alliance is not in your best interests. if you help me finish turkey i will give you the med, and move against germany/england next
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: Austria says he's onboard with an attack on Turkey.
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1901: Nope- I've asked him, but haven't gotten a response yet.
6 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: i will convince turkey to stay allied to me now, build a fleet in sev, and begin the assault on him one way or the other. i dont trust austria at all, i doubt he understands the threat we face, and turkey will try to draw him into an alliance against me if he hasnt already. do anything you can diplomatically to prevent this
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: Turkey is clearly one of the stronger players, both in tactics and in social graces. He FORGAVE you for DEFENDING one of your two conquered bases this turn. The sooner he's out of the game the better for the rest of us. Turkey building a fleet in Smyrna is war with me. Only one of us can rule the Mediterranean sea. Austria is either running a very convincing deception or is in over his head. I think he just screwed up. We need to steel his resolve against Turkey, the three of us can take him appart. SInce I'm not hostile with Austria, and France looks likely to get eaten by a German/English alliance, I'm trying to get a piece. Nothing better to do with that Army.
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: We have not talked since my mess up in greece. I messaged him to let him know that I was not going for him... Hope he believes me.
6 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1901: i know turkey is strong the same way you know turkey is strong. anonymous is not anonymous if our habits betray us
6 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: austria claims not taking greece was an accidental error. your feint towards france might not be a feint at all. what is your proposed build, and how are you moving on turkey? i have two options: attack turkey directly now with austria as a wild card, or deal with austria first and then the two of us combined go after turkey
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1901: How do you know that turkey is strong? I mean it is anonymous...
6 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1901: turkey is a very strong player, it is in everyones advantage to remove him early. austria does not seem strong, and i dont entirely trust him, which makes it hard for me to push south without italys support. the alternative is side with turkey against austria, and hope italy and i can take him down together later on
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1901: Yep, england does not know how to play diplomacy. I'm still with him against France for the time being.... And yes, I'm also working with Italy against France.
6 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Autumn, 1901: looks like england screwed up, you still with him against france? are you working with italy, given the ven-pie move?
6 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: i told you the move he was going to make, and he made it. if he wanted to backstab me he would have convoyed con-sev we have to trust each other if we are going to concentrate effectively against him, or our units will be tied up bouncing each other. if turkey trusts me he will build a fleet in smy. i will build fleet in sev, push him out of black sea and move south. are you and italy in communication about a southern strategy?
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1901: (tldr: Don't build in Sevastopol and all is forgiven so we can get back to attacking Austria more or less on schedule) I see you've issued orders so presumably you've read what I wrote but haven't responded. I will make my case. First, I am clearly not intending to attack you for real. If I was, my actions to this point do not make sense. I've advised you to keep Austria out of Galicia. I've advised you to send the army into Ukraine, which allowed you to defend Romania against my attack; if I'd wanted to attack Romania I would have tried to make it impossible to defend. Going back a turn, I would have sent my second army to Armenia and used it to attack Sevastopol. I also wouldn't have telegraphed my move in the fall. If I'd wanted to stab you last turn I would have convoyed my army in Constantinople to Sevastopol, which was going to be open whether you were letting me attack Romania or not. What I've done only makes sense if I'm allied with you (and Italy) against Austria. There's also no reason for me to choose the hard road and work with Austria when Italy would be hostile to him. Progress would be extremely slow at best and it's easy to defend from the north if Germany is neutral and off limits. Even if Austria was allowed in Silesia it's extremely slow going even with Italy neutral. There's no reason to take that road when we could have Austria off the map in short order. Yes, things are *slightly* harder than expected, but not much harder and if Greece is open and/or Italy with us it's still trivial; I should be able to vacation in Serbia next winter. My proposed division doesn't change, and I continue to promise Vienna and Budapest. The basic plan didn't change either. Now, as I see it, there are three potential builds you can make here: Option 1: A Moscow, Unit St. Petersburg. This makes it easy for us to trust each other. I will take Greece and head west while you get into position. I'll support the move from Ukraine into Romania with the Black Sea. Option 2: A Sevastopol. I'll do the get-rid-of-the-fleet play in the Spring. We'll be back to normal once the fleet is gone, rebuilding trust; I'd still abandon Black Sea once we got far enough for that. Option 3: F Sevastopol. I'll assume you're hostile and attempt to assemble an alliance of whoever I can starting with Austria but also England and Germany.
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: Computer error. Was so pissed I did not bother to message. He attacked you last turn. I don't see how you could be with him.
6 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Autumn, 1901: looks like england/germany are allied against you, but england is not especially competent. any idea what italy is doing with ven-pie?
6 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1901: thanks for your understanding. i am not sure what austria is playing at either. with ven-pie is italy moving west? that makes this easier. agreed fleet build in sev means war, war is to be avoided
6 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: why didnt you take greece? my build this turn decides if i am with you or turkey. i highly recommend we work together against turkey, but if you, me and italy are not in this together i have to ally with turkey and pray for the best
6 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: why ven-pie? turkey says he understands what i did and is still willing to ally with me, he is proposing a fleet build in smy. if i build a fleet in sev this is war. no communication from austria, he bounced me in gal again, not sure why he didnt take greece. without you, me and austria fully on board together i am hesitant to turn against turkey
6 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1901: All right, that was just weird; Austria first told me I could have Greece, then in the Summer told me he was taking Greece then didn't take it. No idea what the motivation on that was. Then clearly you didn't want to do the Romania move so we'll have to keep it around for a bit now, but I get it and I know why you didn't tell me so since you knew this gave you a good defense and guarded against a backstab. I'm still on board. New proposal: We make a deal on unit building to position ourselves where we can attack Austria but not each other. You build Army Moscow and a unit of your choice in St. Petersburg. I'll build a fleet in Smyrna. That orients us both in the right direction, then the fleet in Romania can move back to Sevastopol and we move in the army from Ukraine (we can still do the retreat next turn if you like, it still works, but I'm assuming you don't want to), while Moscow moves up to Ukraine. Getting the army into Romania to cut support from Budapest is how we get control of Serbia. Needless to say, with or without a deal if you build a fleet in Sevastopol I will assume we are at war.
5 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: misinterpreted the support rules: rum will hold, ukr support hold, to bounce turkey. war-gal order still in place
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: That's a good idea
5 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: right, i meant hold rum, support hold from ukr.
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: That is a big risk. I'm not sure that move works. ukr->rom, rom->bul will all bounce back. You can't support yourself into any of turkey's territories. I have no plans for greece atm.
5 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: the biggest risk is that austria and turkey allied against me
5 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: gave austria this information as well
5 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: turkey is going con-bul supporting bul-rum, black sea fleet wont move if he doesnt backstab me. i am thinking ukr-rum supporting rum-bul, you support ser-bul. i need to move my army to the front, so i propose war-gal, you vie-bud. italy is with us against turkey. what is the plan with greece?
5 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: turkey is going con-bul supporting bul-rum, black sea fleet wont move if he doesnt backstab me. i am thinking ukr-rum supporting rum-bul, it bounces his attack and gives austria the ability to support me from serbia. then i build on sevastopol to cover. what is the plan for greece?
5 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1901: i agree with your analysis, it is done. i believe italy.
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from France) - Autumn, 1901: Yeah, hey. I'd help you out against them, only I'm currently a bit distracted in Spain. Maybe a few turns in the future?
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1901: Got word from Italy, he's claiming to be on our side in a way that makes this 5-on-2 against France and Austria. If he's telling the truth this all goes much faster, but all we need is for him to remain neutral.
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1901: I agree that once I can safely move out of the Black Sea I will move my fleet out to the Med and it will become a DMZ along with Armenia, and Ankara will be armies-only as well. Here's my proposal: Austria will support himself into Greece. I will move up from Con-Bul and Bul-Rum with support. You'll use Ukraine to support into Galicia - I suspect that Austria will cover Trieste this turn but assuming we don't want to piss off Germany with a move to Silesia there's no downside to supporting, so it doesn't matter what he does. He'll get two builds, which he'll use for two armies (presumably). Next turn, he'll think that I am going to move against you, and so he will use Budapest and Vienna to attack Galicia. Trieste will either guard against Venice, move up to Tyrolia to flank you or move into Budapest/Vienna to replace the unit previously there. Greece will either hold or attempt to sneak the Ionian Sea. He'll only have one support into Galicia, so your move is to flank him in Bohemia and Galicia with your armies while the new army in Sevastopol goes to Romania. Romania moves to Serbia with Bulgaria's support while my new fleet moves into the Aegean to attack Greece. Once I have Constantinople free and Bulgaria/Romania are fully secure I will transfer the fleet to the Med.
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: Are you proposing any specific tactics?
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: Turkey is likely one of the strongest players. Germany is also, but he's moving west. I doubt Austria will do very well. You're on the edge of a knife in the black sea. Replacing your southern fleet with an Army is a crazy strong sign of dedication to Turkey. If we can coordinate against Turkey, that would be for the best. He's scared of me allying with Austria against him. Our best chance for long term survival is mutual alliance against Turkey. I can keep him thinking I'm going after France for another year, so he'll go after Austria. We can move against him in spring '02
5 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Autumn, 1901: communication has been rocky between me and austria. i sent him a message with an offer of us three vs turkey, no reply yet. turkey is proposing that he pretend to attack me, disbanding my fleet so i can build a southern army next turn instead. i still think turkey is the biggest threat in the game. what approach are you thinking?
5 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Autumn, 1901: that plan leaves you alone with a fleet in the black sea, which seems suicidal for me. will you agree to move your fleet west in return for disbanding mine? give me your proposed moves for you, me and austria
5 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Autumn, 1901: here is the situation. turkey is a strong player. i can either ally with him and carve you up, or we work together to crush him early on. if he survives into late game he will probably win. right now i am in an alliance with him, but i would like to get him to overextend in the invasion and strike him from behind. italy is worried about turkey too and is interested in working with us. will you join us against turkey?
5 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1901: Austria is refusing to give me Greece now, which is annoying for the time table but makes it very clear which side he is on. He didn't explicitly promise no F Albania but there's no other reason for it. If you trust me, I have an idea: When cooperating against Austria, the southern Russian fleet is useless and gets in the way. If I take it out, it can choose to disband and we can replace it with an army in Sevastapol, giving you three southern armies while leaving room for a fleet in the north, or you can build a fourth army in Warsaw. Meanwhile, you take Galicia and he thinks I'm with him, so he'll probably leave Serbia exposed to an attack from Romania, and you can move your army in right behind. We're basically up a unit. Your share of the spoils doesn't change. However, if you don't want to do it I understand completely.
4 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: You're thinking of moving in on Turkey? Is Austria in on this plan? I have designs on having a Mediterranean fleet and that means attacking Turkey. It would be nice to work with you on that.
4 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Autumn, 1901: --------- Your not so serious about this game are you?
4 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1901: Looks like England's headed south after all and Sweden is secure; looks a lot like England+Germany vs. France. No idea if Austria still wants to hand me Greece but I'm working on the guy. If you want to keep up the ruse, there are a few ways we can mock fight that bounce off harmlessly.
4 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Autumn, 1901: Actually, no, Sweden and Norway is a lot for me to promise just yet. But I won't try to stop you taking Sweden.
4 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Autumn, 1901: If you want to move against Turkey you should work with me and Austria.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1901: Thank you! Lets keep an eye out for who winds up controlling central Europe, and then draw up terms for an alliance when it becomes prudent to do so.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1901: Actually, no, Sweden and Norway is a lot for me to promise just yet. But I won't try to stop you taking Sweden.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1901: England taking Norway is pretty standard in diplomacy openings, as it's the only sc he can be certain to take. I would be highly surprised if he didn't take Norway. I agree to the peace treaty terms.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1901: If you want to move against Turkey you should work with me and Austria.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: You can also say I lied to you and said I wouldn't go there if you would like. That is easy to buy.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: I think he is playing that up, but he is a little concerned yes. I think that the treaty provides a justification for you letting me have Black Sea without it looking weird, since you can say Germany would have denied you Sweden.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1901: i agree to the 2 year peace treaty if you dont take sweden, or norway should i obtain it from england
3 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1901: austria is worried about the germany/turkey alliance and wants to side with me against you. do you see strategic value in pretending not to be allied? giving you black sea is an obvious alliance
3 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1901: i agree with you, war between us right now is not good for either of us, norway is yours
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1901: Austria and turkey. In most games both of us have to fight one or both of these, just thought we could coordinate if that is needed.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1901: Ya that alliance sucks for me to... Perhaps eventually an alliance against TU? You should bounce in the black sea. Can not let TU get it. Let me get Rumania. You will need to watch out for germ in swed and england in norway. They may try to F you up north.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1901: I understand your concern, and I admit I don't want war on my eastern front, but you're basically asking me to give up an easily accessible supply depot in exchange for peace. I don't see what you're giving up in this deal. If you let me have Norway, I'll keep the peace while you concentrate on attacking either Austria or Turkey. When we've expanded a bit, we can form an alliance against Germany and/or Austria and divide up our respective spheres down the middle. What do you say?
3 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1901: what evidence do you have england is going north?
3 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1901: turkey wants me to cooperate against austria. turkey is a strong player, i am worried about him late game, possibly better to move on him early.
3 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1901: after taking norway. if you go northern, youre either attacking me or germany, and i dont want armies sitting on my border
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1901: Sweden is yours, but please clarify regarding Norway: Do you mean stop before taking Norway or after?
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1901: Austria and turkey. In most games both of us have to fight one or both of these, just thought we could coordinate if that is needed.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: Fleet in St. Petersburg should definitely go to Sweden, but whether you get it is up to the German. If you're confident England is on the attack, you should send Moscow north leaving one army and the fleet. That leaves Warsaw to hold the south, with Galicia being the safe move since you either get in or prevent him from getting in.
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1901: I will allow you to take Sweden, assuming we can agree on the peace treaty. Attacking England is certainly a possibility for the future.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1901: i have intel england is going north, i am tempted to take sweden so i get units and have defenses in place, but that doesnt leave much to attack austria unilaterally
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: Thank goodness you're here, Russian man! All right, my proposal is we carve Austria first. He's agreed to give me Greece, so I'll take the Black Sea and move my armies up to Con/Bul and then in the fall occupy Gre/Bul; once we have Greece we can move on the rest. Assuming we don't need to give Italy a piece, you can have Vienna, Budapest and Romania. I like Moscow-Ukraine and Warsaw-Galicia to put him under pressure right away.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1901: then i will move for sweden first. will you help me engage england?
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1901: That's not going to be possible - the UK will take Norway before you get there.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: And we have a full game. On the repeats, I find you have to hit the Global (or similar) button to avoid repeats.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Austria, from you) - Spring, 1901: germany and turkey publicly allied against me, i dont want to move against you now, what do you have in mind?
3 Dec 2010	(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1901: i agree not to infringe on denmark or baltic sea as per your defense pact with turkey, in exchange i want norway and sweden, and peace is yours
3 Dec 2010	(To: France, from you) - Spring, 1901: hello over there, just opening a line of communication. germany and turkey publicly allied against my aggression, germany privately asked for peace.
3 Dec 2010	(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1901: i am going northern, and will stop at norway. peace?
3 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1901: both germany and austria are asking for peace
3 Dec 2010	(To: Italy, from you) - Spring, 1901: open to the idea of longterm friendship, why do you think we would make good friends?
3 Dec 2010	(To: Turkey, from you) - Spring, 1901: russia here, natural allies i agree, what moves do you propose?
3 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Spring, 1901: Sorry about repeated messages guys... it's happening by accident when I refresh the page.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Spring, 1901: Is it possible to kick/replace them?
3 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: France is in the house, which is good, but I don't know how to replace Russia and we definitely can't do it before Spring 1901. I'm acting like Russia is in Civil Disorder until we see orders or a message.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Spring, 1901: Is it possible to kick/replace them?
3 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: If you're here, please let me know as soon as possible so there's enough time to actually talk before the turn.
3 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: I'll take that as a no. Shall we all agree that unless they show up this is a five player game and carve them up accordingly?
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: Has anyone received a message from either of them?
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Spring, 1901: I mean 5 on 2, obviously.
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Spring, 1901: I mean 5 on 2, obviously.
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Spring, 1901: 4 on 2 alliance against F and R if they don't move within, say, 5 hours from the end of turn?
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from England) - Spring, 1901: 4 on 2 alliance against F and R if they don't move within, say, 5 hours from the end of turn?
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Austria) - Spring, 1901: ------- Are France and Russia playing?
2 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: Pact with Germany is purely defensive; he suggested it and it seemed like a harmless bit of fluff. It doesn't include Sweden, so I don't see any reason I'd have to act on it unless you have actual designs on Germany. If/when you want to do that, we'll talk.
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: Affirmed by Turkey. Good luck, everyone!
2 Dec 2010	(To: Global, from Germany) - Spring, 1901: Announcing mutual defence pact between Germany and Turkey: if Russia moves or supports a move against Germany, Denmark, the Baltic sea, Turkey, Bulgaria or the Black sea, both Germany and Turkey will retaliate.
1 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Italy) - Spring, 1901: Thought it would be best to say hi and express a desire for longterm friendship.
1 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Austria) - Spring, 1901: peace?
1 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Germany) - Spring, 1901: I propose a peace treaty between us lasting at least 2 years.
1 Dec 2010	(To: You, from Turkey) - Spring, 1901: Hi, this is Turkey. I've always felt Turkey's most natural ally has always been Russia and it's doubly better given that in both LW games Italy hasn't been able to resist the temptation to jump on Austria. The first order of business of course is what to do with the Black Sea. Ideally I'd buy it off of you in exchange for other things, starting with support for Romania whenever you need it and a DMZ in Armenia, but I'm open to any possibility that doesn't involve a Russian fleet ending up there (including an intentional clash).