MPR G motor Rocket Part List Check

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stanle...@gmail.com

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Jun 7, 2021, 12:20:23 AM6/7/21
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I'm thinking that I'll start to buy parts for my rocket right about now, since it's summer. I've redesigned my rocket to allow for stability with and without a duct attached, by moving the altimeter and IMU back and forth. I attached my new OpenRocket file, my rocket is designed around a slimline retainer. 

My parts list is right now:
Quik-lok Slimline Retainer System, from Giant Leap Rocketry
29mm Body Tube(I'll try making this, since I'll need to make a custom fireproof duct later) or buy a fiberglass tube from wildman(https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/fiberglass-1/products/g12-1-1)
29mm Coupler, I can either buy this from wildman(G12CT-1.1 or https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/coupler-fiberglass/products/g12ct-1-1) or I can 3d print this
29mm Nose Cone(Can't find anything reasonably price, might just have to 3d print)
Aerotech 29mm 40-120 Reloadable Kit from Bay Area Rocketry(https://bayarearocketry.com/product/aerotech-29-40-120/)
Aerotech G76 Reloads from Bay Area Rocketry
Fins out of Plywood, 1/8 inch
Parachute and Ejection wadding(Diy, Parachute out of trash bag, wadding out of tissues or toilet paper soaked in Borox)
Flyaway Rail Guide System

Any tips to improve my design(making it cheaper or easier to assemble), and any part incompatibilities?

Ducted Rocket Version 1.ork

Anthony Cooper

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:18:15 AM6/7/21
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I'm concerned about your recovery system. You are using what seem to be high end parts and you are trusting a garbage bag to bring it back to earth. An early or late deployment and you have trash and are going to need another garbage bag to recover the rocket. You may also need a copy of your insurance papers if that rocket happens to hit a car. We'll not talk about if it happens to hit a person. 
Tissues or toilet paper? We are not going to trust that it has been soaked/dried appropriately. Buy a nomex blanket.  
Next issue is "...or I can 3D print", from my experience, 3D printed parts are very heavy. I have no feeling for their strength. The nose, no problem. Start getting 3D printed lower parts and your CG starts shifting aft. That becomes a problem. 
 
________________________________________________________
Anthony M. Cooper
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William Kellermann

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:22:05 AM6/7/21
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William Kellermann

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:23:22 AM6/7/21
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Tony,

Doesn’t LUNAR still have a supply of dog barf?  Much better than soaked TP… and cheaper than Nomex.

On Jun 7, 2021, at 8:17 AM, Anthony Cooper <To...@coopers.org> wrote:

Anthony Cooper

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:26:59 AM6/7/21
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We have way more than we want. Free to take.

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William Kellermann

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:57:09 AM6/7/21
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So that solves the recovery wad problem.  I also agree with Tony - invest in a decent, properly sized parachute.  

You also don’t specify your recovery harness.  Keep in mind the wisdom of the late, great James Marino “elastic is to for your underwear and not your shock cord.”  Get kevlar cord and ensure a fail-safe system.  If you know a commercial electrician, it is often used as pull cord for electrical conduit - you may be able to get a couple of yards donated to your project.

There may be a 29mm nose cone in the LUNAR donated parts box - another source for quality build materials on a budget.  We recently had a ton of materials donated from a flyer who left the hobby.

srkendal

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Jun 7, 2021, 12:30:30 PM6/7/21
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>>> I vote best answer. <<<

I'll take a look at the SIM file today. Stan’s project goal is to test the ducted thrust concept, but he's clearly teasing it a step at a time. Moving his altimeter to and fro will help him maintain a proper CG/Cp relationship, so as long as he has his sim paperwork, an SCO should have no issues allowing him to fly.

As for printed parts, I'm on the fence. Steve Jurvetson used to fly all sorts of printed parts, and there are several guys up north here that routinely post printer files for all sorts of stuff. One guy I met was printing complete tubes with threads that allowed for screw on fin sets. Incredible with; impossible to tell they were printed and not cast/molded/turned. Still, the quality of the printer, the materials used and the skill of the file creator is important and factors into the discussion.

Dog barf is cheap, reliable, and plentiful. Good call. 

As for garbage bag parachutes, I suspect that we all used similar things as kids (I used to use wonder bread bags...great graphics!) but I also agree that a real parachute is a far better choice, especially with fiberglass tubes, etc. A good Top Flight would be cheap insurance. (I'd pitch one of Gene's Fruity Chutes, but the word "cheap" doesn't appear in that sentence.)

Stan, if you can't afford a nylon parachute, I probably have nice, gently used one you can have somewhere. ("Gently" might not be the correct word, but it probably has no holes...🤣) Let me know.

As for Kevlar, I know for a fact that PG&E uses it. I got about 15 yards of it from some guys pulling underground cables. They use it once and toss it. But it can also be had fun Giant Leap, and they have the really thin braided stuff. Light weight, super strong, fire proof, etc.. They also sell swivels (see photo, attached).

Steve Kendall
On Jun 7, 2021 at 8:57 AM, William Kellermann <wt...@comcast.net> wrote:

So that solves the recovery wad problem.  I also agree with Tony - invest in a decent, properly sized parachute.  

You also don’t specify your recovery harness.  Keep in mind the wisdom of the late, great James Marino “elastic is to for your underwear and not your shock cord.”  Get kevlar cord and ensure a fail-safe system.  If you know a commercial electrician, it is often used as pull cord for electrical conduit - you may be able to get a couple of yards donated to your project.

There may be a 29mm nose cone in the LUNAR donated parts box - another source for quality build materials on a budget.  We recently had a ton of materials donated from a flyer who left the hobby.

On Jun 7, 2021, at 8:26 AM, Anthony Cooper <to...@coopers.org> wrote:


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Rob Heil

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Jun 7, 2021, 12:48:21 PM6/7/21
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What’s the point of the big body tube/”duct” hanging off of the back?  You’ll want to Google the Krushnic Effect.  The sim also doesn’t show how this tube is attached to the rocket.

 

Rob Heil

NAR: 31892

TRA: 17863

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stanle...@gmail.com

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Jun 7, 2021, 2:27:30 PM6/7/21
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@Rob Heil It's for testing the "ducted rocket" concept, which uses a duct to channel air into the exhaust to increase the effective power of the motor without adding more fuel.

Okay, the consensus seems to be that a garbage wouldn't work, which probably doesn't work as well on a MPR rocket than it does on a tiny little B to C motor I used to play with. 
Since I'm buying from GLR, I was thinking of picking up a SINGLE PIECE SPHERACHUTE(https://giantleaprocketry.com/collections/fins-1/products/12-single-piece-spherachute?variant=37741120127148), the big question for me would be what size to get. 
I'll also need shock cord, so I'll get this Nylon Shock Cord(https://giantleaprocketry.com/collections/fins-1/products/nylon-shockcord-2-sizes-per-yard).
As for mounting the shock cord and parachute lines to the nose cone and body tube, would a dab of epoxy be okay, or would it be better to have a sort of like mount system that I could tie and untie the shock cord and parachute lines to and from?

As for wadding, I guess I need to start emailing to check if TCC and Sierra Rocketry have some dog barf too. 

And about 3d printed parts, I would hoping to only print the coupler and nose cone at the most. However, I'll definitely look into a commercial solution. My biggest issue right now is having enough space to move the altimeter, but hopefully the commercial solutions still allow this.

Any other parts of my design that I need to fix/add before it looks okay? I was hoping to order parts soon, since my exams should be over in a couple days. 

srkendal

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Jun 7, 2021, 4:46:50 PM6/7/21
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Hi Stan,

I looked over your .ork file. I think Rob's earlier comment about the "Krushnic Effect" is worth exploring. Perhaps you might first try flying it w/o the duct tube just to prove the model flight worthy, then add the duct tubing. 

Having said that, I also don't see the motor retainer in your design. Since it's a significant weight, be sure to add a weight object to represent it. Just a short piece of tubing with the appropriate weight override will work.

Additionally, things like shock cords, screw eyes, etc., do add additional weight, and will affect your CG location. While trivial, they will make a difference, and in this design, especially with the tube so far behind the motor, balance may be very important. 
As for the "Krushnic Effect", the significant portion of that might be a reduced realized thrust. While the motor thrust won't change, the expansion of the gas flow (post nozzle) might be changed significantly. I'm not familiar, so for sure this would be a "heads up" flight the first time you have the duct attached. Still, with your selected motor, I'm certain it will get off the pad, just be sure to have it well above the blast plate to avoid any induced vacuum effect. Otherwise, for sure you'll burn a hole in the plate. Most of these simulators do a less than perfect job of simulating uncommon designs with tubes well behind the motor, so your design may need adjustments after you examine your first flight's data.


Steve Kendall

srkendal

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Jun 7, 2021, 4:52:10 PM6/7/21
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Something else I just noticed...you have the body tube material set to cardboard. If you use fiberglass as you suggest, be sure to change that because the overall weight will go up, possibly a lot.

This holds true for any additional parts (like the fins, which are also listed as "cardboard", which I hope isn't really true). Correct materials will yield better weights and values.

Steve
On Jun 7, 2021 at 1:46 PM, srkendal <srke...@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi Stan,

I looked over your .ork file. I think Rob's earlier comment about the "Krushnic Effect" is worth exploring. Perhaps you might first try flying it w/o the duct tube just to prove the model flight worthy, then add the duct tubing. 

Having said that, I also don't see the motor retainer in your design. Since it's a significant weight, be sure to add a weight object to represent it. Just a short piece of tubing with the appropriate weight override will work.

Additionally, things like shock cords, screw eyes, etc., do add additional weight, and will affect your CG location. While trivial, they will make a difference, and in this design, especially with the tube so far behind the motor, balance may be very important. 
As for the "Krushnic Effect", the significant portion of that might be a reduced realized thrust. While the motor thrust won't change, the expansion of the gas flow (post nozzle) might be changed significantly. I'm not familiar, so for sure this would be a "heads up" flight the first time you have the duct attached. Still, with your selected motor, I'm certain it will get off the pad, just be sure to have it well above the blast plate to avoid any induced vacuum effect. Otherwise, for sure you'll burn a hole in the plate. Most of these simulators do a less than perfect job of simulating uncommon designs with tubes well behind the motor, so your design may need adjustments after you examine your first flight's data.


Steve Kendall

On Jun 6, 2021 at 9:20 PM, stanle...@gmail.com <stanle...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Allen Palmer

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Jun 7, 2021, 4:55:14 PM6/7/21
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Steve
your eyes are as sharp as ever      Allen Palmer

srkendal

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Jun 7, 2021, 4:58:42 PM6/7/21
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I seriously doubt that, Allen, but thanks. 😉

Steve


On Jun 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM, Allen Palmer <aj.p...@mindspring.com> wrote:

Steve
your eyes are as sharp as ever      Allen Palmer
On Jun 7, 2021, at 1:52 PM, srkendal <srke...@comcast.net> wrote:

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stanle...@gmail.com

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Jun 7, 2021, 5:17:36 PM6/7/21
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Thank you all for all the tips! Here is my updated OpenRocket file, unfortunately I'm in a bit of a predicament since I don't know how thick my fiberglass tubing will be. I'll either extend body tube and change the fin the shape to change the stability. 
Ducted Rocket Version 1.ork

William Kellermann

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Jun 7, 2021, 6:23:07 PM6/7/21
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While nylon is better than elastic, kevlar is better still for a recovery harness, especially if you plan to glue it in making it harder to replace if you burn through.  Rather than using heavy I-bolts, you can glue in a stainless steel braided wire loop to tie your recovery harness to your rocket.

Your parachute size will be informed by the total weight of your rocket and the speed at which you want it to fall under chute, which may also be governed by where you fly.  If the rocket will land on a soft surface like grass you can bring it down faster than if it will land on concrete, asphalt or hard playa.  Conversely, if you are launching in an area with a limited splash-zone, you may have to bring it down faster.

Ken Biba has done a lot of experimenting with 3D printed rocket parts.  His Thingiverse page is at:

A 3D printed nosecone, and other components are not beyond the pale, but you want to make sure you account for the weight and flight characteristics in your simulations.

Ari Krupnik

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Jun 7, 2021, 8:53:01 PM6/7/21
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The vendor who sells you the fiberglass usually has dimensions on the
product page of their website, including inner and outer diameters for
tubing.

Ari.
>>>>> <http://gmail.com> <stanle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm thinking that I'll start to buy parts for my rocket right
>>>>> about now, since it's summer. I've redesigned my rocket to
>>>>> allow for stability with and without a duct attached, by moving
>>>>> the altimeter and IMU back and forth. I attached my new
>>>>> OpenRocket file, my rocket is designed around a slimline retainer.
>>>>>
>>>>> My parts list is right now:
>>>>> Quik-lok Slimline Retainer System, from Giant Leap Rocketry
>>>>> 29mm Body Tube(I'll try making this, since I'll need to make a
>>>>> custom fireproof duct later) or buy a fiberglass tube from
>>>>> wildman(https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/fiberglass-1/products/g12-1-1
>>>>> <https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/fiberglass-1/products/g12-1-1>)
>>>>> 29mm Coupler, I can either buy this from wildman(G12CT-1.1 or
>>>>> https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/coupler-fiberglass/products/g12ct-1-1
>>>>> <https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/coupler-fiberglass/products/g12ct-1-1>)
>>>>> or I can 3d print this
>>>>> 29mm Nose Cone(Can't find anything reasonably price, might just
>>>>> have to 3d print)
>>>>> Aerotech 29mm 40-120 Reloadable Kit from Bay Area
>>>>> Rocketry(https://bayarearocketry.com/product/aerotech-29-40-120/ <https://bayarearocketry.com/product/aerotech-29-40-120/>)
>>>>> Aerotech G76 Reloads from Bay Area Rocketry
>>>>> Fins out of Plywood, 1/8 inch
>>>>> Parachute and Ejection wadding(Diy, Parachute out of trash bag,
>>>>> wadding out of tissues or toilet paper soaked in Borox)
>>>>> Flyaway Rail Guide System
>>>>>
>>>>> Any tips to improve my design(making it cheaper or easier to
>>>>> assemble), and any part incompatibilities?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> This list is moderated. Your first port will have to be
>>>>> approved prior to being posted. Feel free to chat about
>>>>> anything your fellow rocketeers would find interesting.
>>>>> For that latest information be sure to subscribe to LUNAR
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> Allen j Palmer
>>
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>>
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Ari Krupnik

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Jun 7, 2021, 8:56:02 PM6/7/21
to lunar-...@googlegroups.com
The vendor who sells you the fiberglass usually has dimensions on the
product page of their website, including inner and outer diameters for
tubing.

Ari.

On 6/7/21 4:17 PM, stanle...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>>> <http://gmail.com> <stanle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm thinking that I'll start to buy parts for my rocket right
>>>>> about now, since it's summer. I've redesigned my rocket to
>>>>> allow for stability with and without a duct attached, by moving
>>>>> the altimeter and IMU back and forth. I attached my new
>>>>> OpenRocket file, my rocket is designed around a slimline retainer.
>>>>>
>>>>> My parts list is right now:
>>>>> Quik-lok Slimline Retainer System, from Giant Leap Rocketry
>>>>> 29mm Body Tube(I'll try making this, since I'll need to make a
>>>>> custom fireproof duct later) or buy a fiberglass tube from
>>>>> wildman(https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/fiberglass-1/products/g12-1-1
>>>>> <https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/fiberglass-1/products/g12-1-1>)
>>>>> 29mm Coupler, I can either buy this from wildman(G12CT-1.1 or
>>>>> https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/coupler-fiberglass/products/g12ct-1-1
>>>>> <https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/coupler-fiberglass/products/g12ct-1-1>)
>>>>> or I can 3d print this
>>>>> 29mm Nose Cone(Can't find anything reasonably price, might just
>>>>> have to 3d print)
>>>>> Aerotech 29mm 40-120 Reloadable Kit from Bay Area
>>>>> Rocketry(https://bayarearocketry.com/product/aerotech-29-40-120/ <https://bayarearocketry.com/product/aerotech-29-40-120/>)
>>>>> Aerotech G76 Reloads from Bay Area Rocketry
>>>>> Fins out of Plywood, 1/8 inch
>>>>> Parachute and Ejection wadding(Diy, Parachute out of trash bag,
>>>>> wadding out of tissues or toilet paper soaked in Borox)
>>>>> Flyaway Rail Guide System
>>>>>
>>>>> Any tips to improve my design(making it cheaper or easier to
>>>>> assemble), and any part incompatibilities?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> This list is moderated. Your first port will have to be
>>>>> approved prior to being posted. Feel free to chat about
>>>>> anything your fellow rocketeers would find interesting.
>>>>> For that latest information be sure to subscribe to LUNAR
>>>>> Announce list at
>>>>> http://lunar.org/docs/lists/lists.shtml#announce
>>>>> <http://lunar.org/docs/lists/lists.shtml#announce>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>> it, send an email to lunar-genera...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lunar-general/850e5507-ed81-45ec-8279-4ecd55401f07n%40googlegroups.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lunar-general/850e5507-ed81-45ec-8279-4ecd55401f07n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This list is moderated. Your first port will have to be approved
>>>> prior to being posted. Feel free to chat about anything your
>>>> fellow rocketeers would find interesting.
>>>> For that latest information be sure to subscribe to LUNAR
>>>> Announce list at
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>> Allen j Palmer
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Charlie Wittman

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:03:08 PM6/7/21
to srkendal, lunar-general
Allen, Steve is actually a lumberjack and came to my place in Oregon to get wood and make some cabinets.


CW

From: lunar-...@googlegroups.com <lunar-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of srkendal <srke...@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, June 7, 2021 1:58 PM
To: lunar-general <lunar-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [LUNAR general:] MPR G motor Rocket Part List Check
 

srkendal

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:33:31 PM6/7/21
to lunar-general, Charlie Wittman
It's a lie. I >brought< a lumber jack with me. His name is Mason. 😆

Mason did all the heavy lifting. All I've done so far is break bandsaw blades trying to cut the stuff. 🤬

But, Charlie's Madrone is beautiful wood. And his White Oak is tough as nails. Trust me. I've bent or snapped, two silicon steel blades trying to cut it!






Steve


On Jun 7, 2021 at 8:03 PM, Charlie Wittman <the...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Allen, Steve is actually a lumberjack and came to my place in Oregon to get wood and make some cabinets.


CW

From: lunar-...@googlegroups.com <lunar-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of srkendal <srke...@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, June 7, 2021 1:58 PM
To: lunar-general <lunar-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [LUNAR general:] MPR G motor Rocket Part List Check
 

Comcast

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:35:08 PM6/7/21
to lunar-...@googlegroups.com
Any fin blanks in there?

William Kellermann

On Jun 7, 2021, at 8:33 PM, srkendal <srke...@comcast.net> wrote:


It's a lie. I >brought< a lumber jack with me. His name is Mason. 😆

Mason did all the heavy lifting. All I've done so far is break bandsaw blades trying to cut the stuff. 🤬

But, Charlie's Madrone is beautiful wood. And his White Oak is tough as nails. Trust me. I've bent or snapped, two silicon steel blades trying to cut it!



<20210604_134333.jpg>

<20210604_163855.jpg>


Steve


srkendal

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Jun 7, 2021, 11:48:26 PM6/7/21
to lunar-general
Well....

It's still pretty wet, so the answer is "not yet".🤣

But what I think is in there is a new BBQ table "wing", possibly two.  White oak is great for outdoor furniture, and if it's attached to my BBQ, it's most definitely "outdoor". As to whether it constitutes "furniture", well I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

-Steve

P.S.
Charlie is right in that I think the Madrone is going to be a cabinet face and doors. So creamy colored it will likely stain to just about any color I'd like to make it.  
-sk
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