Peter heads back to M$FT WinBloze
Peter Leftwich
giving up on FreeBSD, and may soon -- sadly -- join their ranks!
(There was the guy who posted about FreeBSD being great for servers
(surely) but falling short in the desktop/workstation/laptop AND
ease-of-use category. Now there's the thread about Dan wanting his xp
back. I can relate!)
I gave up on Win98 SR1 (1 38gb partition on a 40gb HD) back in Feb 2002
when I installed a Firewire card and Windows got super flakey on me.
Didn't like me for that move. I'd often abuse IE (browser) for hours until
it brought the stupid 16bit DOS-based OS down with it. Well, after
deciding "that's it" and some PartitionMagic four-ways, I blew the dust off
my FreeBSD 4.3 CDROMs and installed them by the seat of my pants, but could
never get XFree86 3.3.6 working - blank screen!
Well at some point recently I ran `boot0cfg /dev/ad0s2` which wiped my MBR
completely (I just wanted to boot straight into FreeBSD but still keep the
DOS slice around as mountable). So now I'm on an old 8.4gb HD that I
booted to absolutely $FREE$ :) floppies and put 4.6 onto, however, XFree86
4.2.0 now suddenly works as does KDE and a very "krashy" Konqueror browser (sigh).
Realizing that plugins are impossible (Flash), and the hassle of getting
sound players working and my Canon scanner and webcam and PDF readers and
*.DOC readers, I think I may be out of the FreeBSD workstation game.
Finally going from UNIX user (since 1992) to sysadmin was a terrific
learning experience, but a "learning XP" seems more attractive for now
especially as XP is built on (sort of) NT and is 32bit and uses protected
memory ... until FreeBSD is 34,523,455% more of an OUT-OF-THE-BOX-GUI OS. :(
Comments? Admonitions? Saving graces?
--
Peter Leftwich
President & Founder
Video2Video Services
Box 13692, La Jolla, CA, 92039 USA
+1-413-403-9555
To Unsubscribe: send mail to majo...@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
Michael Wells
I can surely understand your frustrations. I have has some real X86
issues lately and have had to spend literally hours fixing my own
mistakes trying to upgrade my source. I am getting hooked on this
OS for one reason. I like the "just because I can part of it". I like
the fact that I have control over things. I am also excited about the
chance to start porting some software to FreeBSD. I guess I am
an activist at heart. It's hard for me to sit idly by and watch others
have all the fun. That being said, I think it would be a long time before
I could be totally M$ free as much as I want to. This list has been
extremely helpful in getting me through several issues. One idea
I have been thinking about is creating local support groups. I notice
you are in La Jolla and I am in Carlsbad. A local call or a stop off
at the starbucks to exchange some ideas would be an easy task.
I can imagine several local support groups making up regional groups.
I am involved with HAM radio and these guys know the meaning
of community and it's not just on the radio. I might be dreaming
but the same could be reality for the BSD community. What ever
you choose the best of luck to you!
Michael
Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg
I have used FreeBSD since 2.2.x on all my servers, and over the
years I have made several attempts to take the leap and convert
my workstation to BSD. Still, as you might notice, this mail is
sent from a win2k machine.
I love FreeBSD. I think its one of the finest pieces of software
available today, commercial or not. After more then 5 years of
daily usage I still enjoy tweaking and tuning FreeBSD and watch
it do what it do best; serve.
As a workstation on the other hand, it doesnt quite cut it. My
win2k workstation does exactly what I want it to do. I have
shortcuts and hotkeys for everything, and when I use it Im fast
and effecient. I dont enjoy working with it in the same way I
enjoy using FreeBSD, but it gets the job done the way I want it.
When using FreeBSD as a workstation, I never get that feeling
that Im getting things done as fast as its possible. Few programs
use hotkeys, almost none support user defined hotkeys, such as
just pressing Ctrl+I to read incoming ICQ messages, Ctrl+M to
compose a new email using your favourite mail client or Ctrl+W to
play your favorite mp3 playlist. I rarely find GUI Unix
applications that Im completely satisfied with, they often have
some small issues that annoys me or doesnt work exactly the way I
want. I dont know if this is just because Im too used to the
windows programs that Ive used for years or if its due to lacking
quality of the GUI Unix apps, but I just dont feel good about it.
When using a window manager I still find that the first thing I
do is open up a terminal and do all my work in a cli environment,
since thats by far the fastest and most effecient way to use a
FreeBSD based machine. On the other hand, when using a Windows
machine I often fire up a SSH client and do most of my work
logged in to one of my BSD machines, so I guess thats just the
way I do things. While I dislike most Unix GUI apps, I love the
cli ones.
As of now, all my servers are FreeBSD, and both my workstations
and my laptop dualboots win2k and FreeBSD, usually booting win2k,
and it will probably stay that way for quite some time.
After all, as is often pointed out on this list, use what feels
right for you!
--
R
Ryan Thompson
> Dear List, I've been reading some compelling posts lately about
> people giving up on FreeBSD, and may soon -- sadly -- join their
> ranks!
>
> (There was the guy who posted about FreeBSD being great for servers
> (surely) but falling short in the desktop/workstation/laptop AND
> ease-of-use category. Now there's the thread about Dan wanting his
> xp back. I can relate!)
Having been on all three sides of this fence off and on for many
years, what I have learned (and learned to accept) are these key
points. For the below points, s/FreeBSD/$Z/g where $Z is just about
anything you can imagine. :-)
1. FreeBSD is not for everybody. This much is obvious, and most among
us realize this, and don't try to push FreeBSD on the unwilling.
2. Even for those well versed in UNIX, FreeBSD is not the solution to
all computing problems. I am not at all afraid to admit that, in
addition to running FreeBSD, I have (and use) several Windows
machines, MacOS, SunOS, and even a token Linux box. :-)
3. While most people realize #1 pretty quickly ("this is not for me"),
fewer ever realize #2, and try to do absolutely everything with one
operating system. This, I have found, only leads to resentment when
FreeBSD does not do something as well as another operating system.
Let's face it. A pick-up truck and a Formula-1 race car are both
vehicles. Professional F-1 racers don't go shopping with their race
car. Even though both vehicles perform most of the same functions, and
even have similar controls, it is obvious that each has advantages
over the other for certain tasks. There need be no competition.
Here's my own private dogma:
I know which tasks I need to carry out each day.
I have found which operating system fits each of my tasks best.
I use the right OS (for me) for each task.
The subject of many a flame war past has been "what *is* the right OS
for the job"... because the answer is entirely individual. Try it. If
you don't like FreeBSD as a desktop machine, go find something else
that you *do* like. You won't hurt our feelings. :-) Conversely, if
you *do* want to give a serious effort to try something out, I think
you will find that many on these lists (myself included) will try very
hard to help you.
The only serious flaw in my strategy is that obviously not everyone
has the resources to run several OSes concurrently. I am fortunate in
that respect, but I don't expect everyone else is. If you must only
choose one OS for *all* of your computing tasks, choose a general
operating system that is right for you, and don't buy in too heavily
to the opinions of others who have chosen the OS that is right for
them.
> [...]
> four-ways, I blew the dust off my FreeBSD 4.3 CDROMs and installed
> them by the seat of my pants, but could never get XFree86 3.3.6
> working - blank screen!
As respects the problems you experienced with FreeBSD, I have not
experienced these particular problems. I am sure, however, that others
have. (And Lord knows each of us has experienced our own unique sets
of problems over the years). If you want to overcome the difficulties
you experienced, exploit these lists by asking questions (perhaps you
already have). There are many bright people here who can
(collectively) field just about any question that comes our way. That,
IMO, is one very strong advantage we have over many other choices.
- Ryan
--
Ryan Thompson <ry...@sasknow.com>
SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com
901 1st Avenue North - Saskatoon, SK - S7K 1Y4
Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-244-7037 Saskatoon
Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America
Miroslav Pendev
> Dear List, I've been reading some compelling posts lately about people
> giving up on FreeBSD, and may soon -- sadly -- join their ranks!
Hi Peter!
What OS you like is your matter. I just don't care! If you want to learn
and move from 'click next... click next... click finish' bullshits you
must keep trying and reading and asking... questions instead of complaining!
Let me tell you something... My wife started using FreeBSD [because of me]
just few months ago - may be year... Now she is WORKING on the FreeBSD
the hole day and I can't get her to boot into Win2K... for nothing.
She is able te recompile the hole X and KDE 3 with support for god know what
and she is asking me questions that I do not have an idea what the heck is
answer...!
Otherwise, she is doing computer anymation - 3D Studio MAX, Maya, Adobe
Premiere ... blah blah... for Win.
Now she loves UNIX because you are FREE to do whatever you wish with the OS.
So, how the FreeBSD works for you depends on HOW you want it to work!!!
About the multimedia support - I am helping on one friend of mine to
privide remote videomonitoring - NetCams are uploading into FreeBSD ftp server
and with transcode and shell scripts we are doing .avi files every
10 minutes in DivX compresion!!! for Win- users! We have tens of cams and
the somputer is on the floor of my dressroom ;-))) and it works without reboot
from months...there is no way to see this with Windows - the computer was
locking every two hours in Win2000.
You can look at BMRT tools for rendering - The movie THE MATRIX is rendered
on what you thing !!!! FreeBSD!!!!
You had some problems with partitions - that's OK why don't you read first
some info about this, then ask somebody, make some test with old HDD and then
go with your REAL system... it is not hard...
About the programs for .DOC, .PDF and etc... FreeBSD have nothing to do
with these!!! Please, make sure you are making the difference between OS
and 'user land' applications. Ask Adobe why they do not provide AcroReader
for FreeBSD, although the one under Linux comp. works OK. Ask M$ why there
is no M$ DOC reader - but do not ask nobody here... Why dont you write one
multimedia player! Go grab some books and 'voila...'
XP! Instead of bying 'Step By Step with XP' why don't you read FreeBSD
handbook, first, or go byu Greg's 'The Complete FreeBSD....' anyways...
I did notice something VERY intresting about XP 'user protected memory'.
If one of the other users is not logged out and you log in in the same PC
you can access other's user network shares in the LAN just as he can!
That's about Windows XP, Notworking... and multi user logons.
I personly will pray for FreeBSD to never become 'a GUI'. I would like it
to stay Operating system, instead!
I don't thing the 'GUI DOS' - WinDOS is a OS at all - it is a game station.
Well, boy... go grab some nice books, or read few web pages and docs about
unix... I am sure you will become guru if you only wish so...
To say 'I can''t' is always easy.
Sory, I didn't mean to write 'a book' about your letter - but... ;-))))
That is just my opinion... FreeBSD team have nothing to do with it.
Good luck with your choice...
--Miro
>
> (There was the guy who posted about FreeBSD being great for servers
> (surely) but falling short in the desktop/workstation/laptop AND
> ease-of-use category. Now there's the thread about Dan wanting his xp
> back. I can relate!)
>
> I gave up on Win98 SR1 (1 38gb partition on a 40gb HD) back in Feb 2002
> when I installed a Firewire card and Windows got super flakey on me.
> Didn't like me for that move. I'd often abuse IE (browser) for hours until
> it brought the stupid 16bit DOS-based OS down with it. Well, after
> deciding "that's it" and some PartitionMagic four-ways, I blew the dust off
> my FreeBSD 4.3 CDROMs and installed them by the seat of my pants, but could
> never get XFree86 3.3.6 working - blank screen!
>
> Well at some point recently I ran `boot0cfg /dev/ad0s2` which wiped my MBR
> completely (I just wanted to boot straight into FreeBSD but still keep the
> DOS slice around as mountable). So now I'm on an old 8.4gb HD that I
> booted to absolutely $FREE$ :) floppies and put 4.6 onto, however, XFree86
> 4.2.0 now suddenly works as does KDE and a very "krashy" Konqueror browser (sigh).
>
> Realizing that plugins are impossible (Flash), and the hassle of getting
> sound players working and my Canon scanner and webcam and PDF readers and
> *.DOC readers, I think I may be out of the FreeBSD workstation game.
>
> Finally going from UNIX user (since 1992) to sysadmin was a terrific
> learning experience, but a "learning XP" seems more attractive for now
> especially as XP is built on (sort of) NT and is 32bit and uses protected
> memory ... until FreeBSD is 34,523,455% more of an OUT-OF-THE-BOX-GUI OS. :(
>
> Comments? Admonitions? Saving graces?
>
> --
> Peter Leftwich
> President & Founder
> Video2Video Services
> Box 13692, La Jolla, CA, 92039 USA
> +1-413-403-9555
>
>
Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg
Lance Bland wrote:
>
> On Friday, July 26, 2002, at 09:46 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
>
>> Peter Leftwich wrote:
>>
>>> Dear List, I've been reading some compelling posts lately about people
>>> giving up on FreeBSD, and may soon -- sadly -- join their ranks!
>>
>>
>> I have used FreeBSD since 2.2.x on all my servers, and over the years
>> I have made several attempts to take the leap and convert my
>> workstation to BSD. Still, as you might notice, this mail is sent from
>> a win2k machine.
>
>
> Do you know that Mac OS X has FreeBSD inside it? and is a desktop OS?
>
> -lance
>
> ------------------------------------
> Lance Bland
> mailto:lbl...@vvi.com
> web charts at http://www.vvi.com/products/chart
>
Yes, I do know that. My work forces me to be able to troubleshoot
MacOS from 8.x and up, as well as all Windows and FreeBSD
versions. I currently do not own a Mac, but if I ever get the
money and need for a new machine, its very likely it will be a Mac.
For now, I keep my workstations running win2k and my servers
running FreeBSD, and so far it works just great for me.
--
R
Steve Mazerski
(...)
> Well at some point recently I ran `boot0cfg /dev/ad0s2` which wiped my MBR
> completely (I just wanted to boot straight into FreeBSD but still keep the
> DOS slice around as mountable). So now I'm on an old 8.4gb HD that I
> booted to absolutely $FREE$ :) floppies and put 4.6 onto, however, XFree86
> 4.2.0 now suddenly works as does KDE and a very "krashy" Konqueror browser
> (sigh).
Konquerer is nice but still not quite perfect, alas.
Have you tried Mozilla or Opera?
> Realizing that plugins are impossible (Flash), and the hassle of getting
> sound players working and my Canon scanner and webcam and PDF readers and
> *.DOC readers, I think I may be out of the FreeBSD workstation game.
>
> Finally going from UNIX user (since 1992) to sysadmin was a terrific
> learning experience, but a "learning XP" seems more attractive for now
> especially as XP is built on (sort of) NT and is 32bit and uses protected
> memory ... until FreeBSD is 34,523,455% more of an OUT-OF-THE-BOX-GUI OS.
> :(
How about... Linux? (duck for cover). The main Linux distros are pretty good
at installing a working desktop right out of the box and have fairly usable
configuration tools (i.e. not just vi) for various types of hardware.
That still won't get you a 100% compatible .doc reader (there is no such
thing, I believe...) but you do then have a nice UNIX-style environment
which won't try and phone home ;-).
FWIW I've just converted my desktop from Linux to FreeBSD, which was
quite painful (got stuck on a couple of hardware problems) but works a
dream :-). The only things I haven't got working are the sound card and
a Flash plugin (but as I wouldn't shed a tear if I heard every Flash
application has been abducted by space aliens and incarcerated on the
Planet Qeeb, it doesn't bother me much ;-).
Mind you I still have access to a Windows installation when
something (.doc files) really doesn't work
S.Mazerski
John Mills
On 26 Jul 2002, Kirk Strauser wrote:
> I won't argue preferences. I'm happy with my Unix/Linux/FreeBSD
> workstations, but you may not be. Go with what works best for you.
>
> Personally, though? Buy a Mac. No, I'm not kidding. My wife bought a new
> iMac last weekend, and that little box is great. You have a terrific GUI,
> lots of commercial software ready-from-the-box, and a pretty featureful
Seconding that for the older-model (1999?) iMac my non-computer-using wife
bought. I have some quibbles about features of the MacOS-8.x we got, but
from the moment you cut open the box until you're registering your new
family member over the net a couple of hours later, Apple is building a
user-tool relationship and user confidence. I think they hit 100% as
product designers.
> FreeBSD system for when you feel like hacking around in a shell.
Do you mean Mac OS X, or an overlay of FreeBSD on MacOS-8/9? (That's why I
started out 'Oohhh'.)
> After playing with it for a few hours, I doubt I'll ever again suggest
> Windows to someone I don't dislike. Mac OS X is pretty, it's stable, it's
> easy to use, and it's largely Unix.
Apple has run a great series of ads in e-Week, showing that [definitely]
pretty desktop and suggesting their combination of iBook and Mac OS X is
the answer to a SysAdmin's prayer: sexy _and_ cute.
I wish 'em all success.
- John Mills
Joshua Lee
Peter Leftwich <Hostm...@Video2Video.Com> wrote:
> Dear List, I've been reading some compelling posts lately about people
> giving up on FreeBSD, and may soon -- sadly -- join their ranks!
It's really not for everyone as a desktop, but I prefer it over windows even for that task.
> my FreeBSD 4.3 CDROMs and installed them by the seat of my pants, but
could
> never get XFree86 3.3.6 working - blank screen!
4.6 installs version 4.2.0 by default now, and it's a lot easier to set up usually than 3.3.6.
> XFree86 4.2.0 now suddenly works
Yep, like I said, it's easier to set up.
> as does KDE and a very "krashy" Konqueror browser (sigh).
I prefer Mozilla, though Konqueror has improved much in KDE3, you might want to try upgrading to KDE3 (it's in ports, it really should be the default now) if you like KDE.
> Realizing that plugins are impossible (Flash), and the hassle of
I don't use Konq, or KDE (anymore since moving from Lin to BSD), but Flash works fine here. Have you tried installing it? Maybe it needs a seperate installation step.
> sound players working
If you have a recent soundcard usually all you have to do is add "device pcm" to your kernel configuration file and recompile the kernel. (Yes, I know recompiling's a pain - in the meantime running kldload snd0 will work.)
> and my Canon scanner and webcam and PDF readers and
PDF readers are easy, you have a choice between Acroread (the same product used under Windows), and the various ghostview clones such as gv. KDE even comes with a good one of those, kghostview, that autmatically executes from the konqueror file browser. I think you can even create PDF files in BSD without paying for Acrobat, I know creating postscript files is a cinch...
> *.DOC readers,
Openoffice, and for simple DOC files Abiword, are word processors that have some DOC compatability.
> I think I may be out of the FreeBSD workstation game.
Don't give up yet! The only thing FreeBSD is really lacking in is 3D games; at least my nvidia card doesn't work with this. (Other video cards may have AGP and hardware 3D support with 4.6 (and I seem to recall 4.5) FreeBSD.)
> Finally going from UNIX user (since 1992) to sysadmin was a terrific
That's around the time that I started, though I did very rudementary sysadmin work by installing 0.95 Linux on a 386sx-16. :-) (at the time 386BSD 0.x was buggy and BSDI had the AT&T lawsuit...)
> learning experience, but a "learning XP" seems more attractive for now
It depends upon what you like to do.
> especially as XP is built on (sort of) NT and is 32bit and uses > protected memory ...
FreeBSD is a heck of a lot more reliable than XP, and is 32 bit with protected memory too, and not just in recent versions. :-)
> until FreeBSD is 34,523,455% more of an OUT-OF-THE-BOX-GUI OS. :(
Assuming sysinstall goes smoothly, it is an out-of-the-box GUI. It offers KDE2, Sawfish or E with GNOME, and fvwm; and nearly any other x11 window manager available for X is available in /usr/ports/x11-wm. (I currently use Windowmaker; but you might not like that because rather than being a Windows clone it's a NeXT-step clone.)