Tone and community guidelines

[Alex Skinner]

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and that people of all levels be that:

1. English as a first language

2. Experience of CFML and programming in general

3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly. 

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave.

I also don't think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to filter some of this stuff then to me it's not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex

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[Igal @ Lucee.org]

+2

I would add to your list:

4. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words.  This is a professional forum and users should behave accordingly.


Igal Sapir

Lucee Core Developer
Lucee.org

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[Michael Offner]

+1

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[Bilal]

Agreed.

[Ron Stewart]

Alex,

A few comments and questions, offered constructively:

a. If there are to be guidelines, they will need to be captured and presented somewhere in order for community members or potential community members to know that such guidelines exist. I don't think it is safe to assume that everyone will simply "know how to behave". Summarizing them at the top of the welcome page for the group, for instance, would seem to me to be one logical place for that.

b. Recognize that there are going to be varying scales for many of us where what some participants might feel to be off-topic, offensive, or profane is not considered so by others.

c. "English as a first language"... does this refer to the communication here or to the participants? I think I know the intent, but the way it is phrased in your post leaves it open to interpretation. If we are establish guidelines, we'll want them to be as clear and unambiguous as we can.

d. Would you elaborate on your #3? I'm not sure what you are pointing toward.

e. RE your comment about the effort of developing a code of conduct: that's effectively what you are proposing here, at some level. I see two benefits to that effort. First, it shows people we care enough to take seriously making sure people understand the expectations regarding how people conduct themselves within the community. Second, it provides a clear set of expectations of behavior and how behavior deemed unacceptable will be addressed. I see value in value in both. 

f. If there are guidelines and if they are to be real, the list moderators (or "shepherds", perhaps, as I don't see them moderating content under most situations) will need to be responsible for timely intervention and providing guidance to participants (out of band, in some cases) as content and community members drift toward or step over those guidelines. That can be a challenging and sometimes unpleasant responsibility. Who would those moderators be and are they willing to take that on?

[Rick Mason]

I belong to a group called API Craft and they have a simple credo: think twice and email once.  I think that is pretty good advice.

Rick

[Adam Cameron]

On 22 February 2015 at 10:30, Rick Mason <rhm...@gmail.com> wrote:

I belong to a group called API Craft and they have a simple credo: think twice and email once.  I think that is pretty good advice.

Yeah, but you'll still get ppl like me who word what I say and how I say it very precisely (well: most of the time ;-), however this still violates a lot of people's social mores which seem to revolve around hand-wringing and worrying about whether "everything is awesome!" more than a need to cut to the chase sometimes and just get on with it.

That said, whether I like that or not, I'm aware it's reality. If there's a scale of black to white, I realise I am an outlier in one direction or the other, and we all feel more awesome the closer we are to being within a single standard deviation of distinctly average.

Accordingly I have taken Alex's suggestions on board.

-- 

Adam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

[Adam Cameron]

On Sunday, 22 February 2015 03:47:02 UTC+13, Ron Stewart wrote:

Alex,

A few comments and questions, offered constructively:

a. If there are to be guidelines, they will need to be captured and presented somewhere in order for community members or potential community members to know that such guidelines exist. I don't think it is safe to assume that everyone will simply "know how to behave". Summarizing them at the top of the welcome page for the group, for instance, would seem to me to be one logical place for that.

Agreed.

 

e. RE your comment about the effort of developing a code of conduct: that's effectively what you are proposing here, at some level.

Well: quite.

I reckon the wording - which needs a proof read & some spit and shine as you allude to, Ron - should be posted as a "sticky" at the top of the topic list. The intent and the general gist of it is good.

We could perhaps also benefit from having another one with a technical angle: how to ask questions sensibly, etc (eg: http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html).

-- 

Adam

[Adam Cameron]

On Saturday, 21 February 2015 06:46:29 UTC+13, Igal wrote:

+2

I would add to your list:

4. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words.  This is a professional forum and users should behave accordingly.

That's getting a bit nanny-state, I think? It also presupposes there's some sort of inverse correlation between profanity and professionalism.

I would say it's perhaps unacceptable to make ad hominem attacks on people (and we're both guilty as charged there, eh, Igal? ;-), but - seriously - ppl who pretend to blush at words they perceive to be naughty perhaps ought to learn to deal with that themselves. This also is part of living in a grown-up professional world. Their position is not automatically correct. Nor just because they have a position on something does it mean that everyone else automatically has to take that position too. This is something ppl don't seem to "get" sometimes.

It's the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using "bad language" that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as they're not used mean-spiritedly, what's the actual problem?

On the other hand, there's quite a lot of passive-aggressive loosely ad hominem subtext going on in forums too (indeed, in this very thread to a trivial degree). However people make sure to express that without an overtly inflammatory tone so as to be able to crawl away going "what? Me? No, that's not what I meant" when clearly it bloody was what they meant. This is also poor form, anti-social, not to mention quite dishonest and disingenuous and actually should be considered something to censure. That's a bit trickier than going "no swear words" though, innit?

NB: my comment here is more based on being fascinated by the forum dynamic on this sort of topic (not this forum in particular, just the whole social dynamic). I don't personally perceive there's a case to answer to on anyone's part at all, however I think having house rules are a good idea to make people feel better about things. I also completely think you're entitled to your opinion, Igal. As we must be getting used to by now... I just don't happen to agree with it ;-)

-- 

Adam

[Steven Durette]

**** snip

It's the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using "bad language" that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as they're not used mean-spiritedly, what's the actual problem?

**** end snip

The actual problem is that you are making assumptions about the audience. The current push in the United States is to get kids programming and therefore you can expect some young ones to possibly join the lists if they start programming in Lucee. In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of children. 

Oh and many businesses consider profanity to be in-professional. 

One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity is only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Adam Cameron]

On Sunday, 22 February 2015 18:13:11 UTC+13, Steven Durette wrote:

In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of children. 

Interesting! I would love to see some reference to that to see how it possibly came about. Nothing surprises me about what they'll legislate about in the States though.

 

One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity is only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position.

Oh yeah. A lot of ppl trot-out that nonsense. Generally ppl who can't make a case with logic and facts, ironically. And is itself - obviously - an ad hominem attack (although such a limp one, I don't think it really matters. The only real risk is spraining one's eyeballs from rolling them too much ;-).

I suspect the "off topic" klaxon is warming up though, so perhaps we'd better move on from this. Serious - on topic! - question... is it OK to have off topic conversations (because I think this is interesting) with other community members here if they're marked as off-topic?

-- 

Adam

[Kai Koenig]

I’m tempted to say that if one can’t deal with someone using “profanities” like for instance “for fuck’s sake” in an appropriate general context, those people could just read over the respective expression and move on.

I do agree with Adam, nanny-state is exactly the right expression for the suggested rule:

"4. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words.  This is a professional forum and users should behave accordingly.”

I do understand that some people might be offended by using expressions like the above in their culture. That’s fair enough. However, please realise that it’s perfectly fine and accepted in various other cultures to use — for instance — the above, or a more general “fuck” (Sorry if this has already offended someone).

My question is: How much emphasis should be put on a rule for dealing with some people from some cultural contexts being offended by something being said here.

I’ll take it to the other extreme: There are countries in which females have no rights and are not allowed to participate in the work force or in large parts of society. If someone from such a country was to subscribe to this list — would we then start to remove all females from this list — because having females around _might_ offend them?

Seriously people, there’s a thing such as freedom of speech - and yes, a community and as such a mailing list can give itself rules, nothing against that. But it can be as simple as:

1. Don’t insult any person directly

2. Don’t insult anyone’s religion or gender or sexual orientation etc.

3. Don’t be a total dick

But that’s _about_ all it needs.

Kai

[Mark Drew]

I agree with the points said by Kai. I think the groups needs no moderation, until it does. From previous experience with a couple of characters in a previous incarnation of these forums, 99.99% of the time you don't need it until someone oversteps the obvious boundary.

With regards to pinning the community guidelines I think Google groups has stopped allowing that.

I am not sure how we will handle it with Lucee but before we had community moderators (Todd Rafferty) that did a great job. Maybe if/when it is needed someone can be appointed again.

WRT off topic. If a conversation is off topic but beneficial to the community, great, let's keep it . But (again) we had questions about how to do CSS and fix JavaScript code what was better placed elsewhere that should be marked as off topic (this was in the old Railo group). It's all about the signal vs noise ratio IMO

Profanity. I am fucking torn on this bloody issue.
As long as you are not insulting someone it should be ok. But we want to be as inclusive as possible, that includes kids. Kids. Don't swear. Don't do as I do.
But we all have to agree that this isn't a pub. It's an office type environment (virtual as it may be) and a community that accepts everyone (including fledgling developers) and treats everyone with respect.


Mark Drew
- Sent by typing with my thumbs.

[Adam Cameron]

On 22 February 2015 at 20:53, Mark Drew <mark...@gmail.com> wrote:

 that includes kids. Kids. Don't swear. Don't do as I do.

I seriously wonder if any adult who thinks this is even remotely an issue was ever actually a kid.

-- 

Adam 

[Mark Drew]

I certainly wasn't. I was created fully formed.

Mark Drew

- Sent by typing with my thumbs. 

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[Adam Cameron]

On 22 February 2015 at 21:40, Mark Drew <mark...@gmail.com> wrote:

I certainly wasn't. I was created fully formed.

And they definitely broke the mold before that one.

-- 

Adam 

[Nando Breiter]

I think it is important to remember that for many folks here, English is a foreign language. I can tell you from first hand experience as an American living in the Italian speaking area of Switzerland that when folks here start slinging barbed comments about me around in Italian, which happens often, I have no idea how to respond, and feel confused as to the true intent. Yes, they want to suggest that I'm an idiot, an outsider, a foreigner, but even if they think it is just friendly joking, it comes across as quite hostile, and it hurts. Luckily, I don't have to deal with that over an email list, and on top of that try to work with these people, which would be all the more difficult!

On top of that, CFML, or in the future, the new Lucee dialect, may also be a language folks on this list don't know completely, well, or at all.

If I joined a Ruby mailing list, not knowing a thing about Ruby but having a desire to learn, and I encountered a lot of edgy, competitive banter (likely from a small clique of members), I would feel excluded in the sense that I would have no idea at all how to join in to such banter, and I also would not feel welcome to ask my newbie questions.

So I think the question of tone is this: Do we want to create an inclusive international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique. To me, I don't think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We'll go extinct that way. 

And I don't think this is about free speech. If that's the ideal, then everyone should be allowed to freely express their opinions, and sling their most barbed and colloquial arrows, in their native languages. 

It's about being intelligent regarding inclusiveness, over the limited medium of email (rather than face to face communication), in a common language that is foreign to many, regarding quite a complex subject, so that Lucee has a better chance to thrive.

Aria Media Sagl
Via Rompada 40
6987 Caslano
Switzerland

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+41 (0)76 303 4477 cell
skype: ariamedia

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[Steven Durette]

OT but because you asked:

Some anti-profanity laws were passed to shield women and children from foul-mouthed men. Consider this Michigan law: “Any person who shall use any indecent, immoral, obscene, vulgar or insulting language in the presence or hearing of any woman or child shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.”

Another Oklahoma law warns, “If any person shall utter or speak any obscene or lascivious language or word in any public place, or in the presence of females, or in the presence of children under ten (10) years of age, he shall be liable to a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), or imprisonment for not more than thirty (30) days, or both.”

Taken from http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/curses-blasphemy-profanity-laws-still-on-the-books

Sent from my iPhone

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[ADK]

You're reaching. Those are ancient "blue" laws. I believe that stealing a horse in the State of New York is still "technically" a hanging offense as well. Most laws, do not automatically sunset and so reside on the books as vestiges of a bygone era, they're not really enforced and if/when some hick sheriff tries to do so, it's thrown out/found to be unconstitutional/void as against public policy/etc.

Like programming languages, most bodies of law could really use a good practice of deprecation. Here in the US, the law is either sunset after a period of time, or gets officially overturned when some idiot tries to enforce it and the courts call BS.

Over the air communication in the US is still monitored/overseen by the FCC and so that is a different story, though not applicable here...

[Julian Halliwell]

Apparently that wouldn't happen because of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINASWAN

"Micha is nice and so we are nice"?

[Mark Drew]

That is awesome :) I like it.

Mark Drew
- Sent by typing with my thumbs.

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[Sean Corfield]

Very cute but I've seen some pretty bad explosions from the Ruby community so, policy or not, it doesn't always solve the problem.

I've stayed out of this thread so far because it seems well-intentioned and "everyone should play nice" is a good goal for a community. I nearly jumped in at the "no code of conduct" point but as others have said, the proposed behavioral guidelines really _are_ a code of conduct and the core of most of the codes of conduct out there are about two things:

* Stating what is unacceptable behavior
* Stating what, if anything, will be done about someone violating the CoC

It's usually the second bullet that takes time but without it, the policy is just "empty words". A few people have hinted that moderation is what will be used to address the second point (insofar as putting a "violator" under moderation and ensuring future posts from them follow the guidelines).

That's all very reasonable but, as the discussion over swearing has shown, this _will_ need to be written down and posted somewhere prominent so that list members — and the community at large — know what's acceptable and what is not.

FWIW, I deal with CoCs quite a bit via conferences: I'm the person who introduced the concept to dev.Objective() — formerly cf.Objective(). I also try to stay informed about diversity issues (attending events like AlterConf, following Model View Culture, and so on) and I founded ClojureBridge as a effort to improve diversity in the Clojure community — following the lead of a former Macromedia colleague, Sarah Allen, who founded RailsBridge. It’s all a big learning curve and most white cishet men don’t even know what they don’t know about the subject — being inclusive is hard, but it’s important.

Most conference CoCs are based in some form on this one:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy

Note that whilst nearly all CoCs address "sexual language" (in addition to a long list of specific forms of harassment), they do not typically include swearing or profanity because that, in and of itself, is not harassment.

It was the inclusion of "No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words" as a discussion point that made me want to raise this, especially since several non-US members objected to that inclusion. As an ex-pat Brit, now an American citizen, I'm with Adam, Kai, Mark — profanity in and of itself should not be considered unacceptable behavior, as long as the _tone_ and intent is not exclusionary.

Sean

[Matt Quackenbush]

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Sean Corfield <se...@corfield.org> wrote:

Note that whilst nearly all CoCs address "sexual language" (in addition to a long list of specific forms of harassment), they do not typically include swearing or profanity because that, in and of itself, is not harassment.

It was the inclusion of "No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words" as a discussion point that made me want to raise this, especially since several non-US members objected to that inclusion. As an ex-pat Brit, now an American citizen, I'm with Adam, Kai, Mark — profanity in and of itself should not be considered unacceptable behavior, as long as the _tone_ and intent is not exclusionary.

Sean

I am an American, born and raised, and I am vehemently opposed to such a rule. In addition to everything Kai, Adam, Mark, and Sean have said, it boils down to this:

• What's the list?
• Who wrote it?
• Why is a word that doesn't bother me (or you, or you, or you) on the list?
• Why is a word that does bother me (or you, or you, or you) not on the list?

Simply stated, any such list is bullshit and has no place anywhere but a nanny state or perhaps some strict religious structure. I would certainly hope that this community would be neither of those.

[Adam Cameron]

On Monday, 23 February 2015 06:40:44 UTC+13, Steven Durette wrote:

OT but because you asked:

Some anti-profanity laws were passed to shield women and children from foul-mouthed men. Consider this Michigan law: “Any person who shall use any indecent, immoral, obscene, vulgar or insulting language in the presence or hearing of any woman or child shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.”

Another Oklahoma law warns, “If any person shall utter or speak any obscene or lascivious language or word in any public place, or in the presence of females, or in the presence of children under ten (10) years of age, he shall be liable to a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), or imprisonment for not more than thirty (30) days, or both.”

Taken from http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/curses-blasphemy-profanity-laws-still-on-the-books

That's hilarious.

Sorry, I thought you meant new legislation to this effect. Not outdated stuff that simply hasn't been taken off the books yet.

-- 

Adam

[Andrew Myers]

The "no profanity" rule basically excludes any Australians from the *&^%ing list.

[Kai Koenig]

Bloody right, mate!

[Adam Cameron]

YIKES.

SORRY. I thought Andy had emailed me directly - it turned up in my "Andy" folder not my "Lucee" one. The other half of the message I am replying to is the one situation in which I think a given word is inappropriate. I used it for effect, and because of it's inappropriateness to demonstrate a point, and purely in an environment I thought was personal.

Can someone pls delete that (I can't see a way of retracting it myself).

FFS.

-- 

Adam

On Monday, 23 February 2015 13:10:18 UTC+13, Adam Cameron wrote:

And fuckin' Kiwis too.

 

[Adam Cameron]

Ah... I think I've deleted it. Sorry if it makes its way into anyone's inbox.

-- 

Adam

[Igal @ Lucee.org]

I will not address all of the points that were made in this thread, but
here are a few based on bits and pieces from the different messages:

1) of course that swearing is unprofessional. do you greet a new client
that comes into your office that way? do you talk like that to your
boss? at a job interview?

if someone came to me for an interview and started spewing profanity, I
would not hire him/her, because at the very least I know that they lack
self control. see also
http://dianegottsman.com/2013/02/cursing-at-work-replacing-profanity-with-professionalism/

2) every community (group, club, organization) has "code of conduct" or
"rules of what's acceptable", even if unwritten. that has nothing to do
with a "nanny state". for example, if you'd unzip your pants in the
middle of the office and start "watering" the plants -- you would be
thrown out immediately -- possibly get arrested.

3) most of us come to this forum for professional reasons -- to learn,
improve, share ideas, ask, answer, etc. -- when someone posts profanity
or other offensive thoughts then we have to read them if we want to stay
in the forum for professional reasons, and the person who posts that
forces it on us.

share it with your friends by email. tweet it where one can simply not
follow your posts. post it on your blog -- people who wants to read it
will, and people who do not, won't. but when you post it to the mailing
list here the only way for me to avoid it is to leave the mailing list,
which I really don't think that I should.

here's an idea -- open your own mailing list, invite your friends, and
post it there -- the people who want to communicate with you there will
opt in.

4) I'm no stranger to profanity. I probably know at least as many bad
words as the rest of you (possibly more, because I know bad words in
several languages). that doesn't mean that this public forum is the
place for them.

I'm a member of several mailing lists of major projects -- and I've
never seen the language there that I've seen here. most likely because
the first time you spew profanity on one of those lists your message
will be erased and you'll be kicked out.

5) last but not least (this is probably the most important one), this
forum is the "face of Lucee". if I were a new user who decided to check
out Lucee -- and I read some of the comments here -- I would not waste
another minute of my time on this mailing list, and possibly not on this
project.

this is something that the Lucee Association should think about very
carefully, as it can have serious implications on the future of the
project.

I think that Nando said it best when he wrote: "Do we want to create an

inclusive international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique.
To me, I don't think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We'll go
extinct that way."

Igal

p.s. you can disagree with what I wrote, but seriously, try to be mature
about it. I'm sure that you can do so without resorting to foul language.

[Kai Koenig]

Responses inline:

> I will not address all of the points that were made in this thread, but
> here are a few based on bits and pieces from the different messages:
>
> 1) of course that swearing is unprofessional. do you greet a new client
> that comes into your office that way? do you talk like that to your
> boss? at a job interview?
>
> if someone came to me for an interview and started spewing profanity, I
> would not hire him/her, because at the very least I know that they lack
> self control. see also
> http://dianegottsman.com/2013/02/cursing-at-work-replacing-profanity-with-professionalism/

I don’t agree with Mrs Gottsman, but that’s fair enough.

Your first examples (client/boss/job interview) are absolutely irrelevant for what’s being discussed here.

That is for various reasons, among them is:

- those people pay you money for playing by mostly their rules —> On this mailing list, most people contribute because they volunteer their time.

There are tons of other reasons why I think your comparisons have no relevance in this discussion, but I don’t want to spend my time writing them all up as I know we will disagree anyway.

> 2) every community (group, club, organization) has "code of conduct" or
> "rules of what's acceptable", even if unwritten. that has nothing to do
> with a "nanny state". for example, if you'd unzip your pants in the
> middle of the office and start "watering" the plants -- you would be
> thrown out immediately -- possibly get arrested.

If you were to read the emails in this thread again you’ll find that most people have no issue with an explicit or unwritten code of conduct.

What people have an issue with are in fact “nanny state” rules of which words are allowed and which not. Who’s gonna define the word list in your model btw? Just wondering …

> I'm a member of several mailing lists of major projects -- and I've
> never seen the language there that I've seen here. most likely because
> the first time you spew profanity on one of those lists your message
> will be erased and you'll be kicked out.

So, those mailing lists do have a word list? Are those rules documented somewhere.

> 5) last but not least (this is probably the most important one), this
> forum is the "face of Lucee". if I were a new user who decided to check
> out Lucee -- and I read some of the comments here -- I would not waste
> another minute of my time on this mailing list, and possibly not on this
> project.
>
> this is something that the Lucee Association should think about very
> carefully, as it can have serious implications on the future of the
> project.
>
> I think that Nando said it best when he wrote: "Do we want to create an
> inclusive international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique.
> To me, I don't think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We'll go

> extinct that way.”

Building an inclusive international community has 0 to do with in my opinion nanny-state profanity word filtering.

I’ll ask the question again: How far would you want to take adapting to the lowest common denominator? Banning females from the list to suit someone from a country where females are not supposed to take part in professional life and public society?

You seriously need to accept that there are other social norms outside of the US-level of being politically over-correct (*) — (*) (in my opinion very often the case)

Cheers,
Kai

[Igal]

it's very relevant -- it addresses Adam's statement: "It also presupposes there's some sort of inverse correlation between profanity and professionalism".

[Sean Corfield]

I'm with Kai on this. And as I noted earlier, even Codes of Conduct specifically intended to create inclusive, welcoming spaces don't exclude "bad language" per se.

Sean

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[ADK]

the drama-to-substance ratio on this list is getting out of hand. So far since launch the hottest topics of discussion have been Google v. Discourse, FUD around CFML's future with Lucee, and international societal norms regarding profanity. How about we get back to the business at hand of creating software, eh?

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:30:06 AM UTC-8, Alex Skinner wrote:

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and that people of all levels be that:

1. English as a first language

2. Experience of CFML and programming in general

3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly. 

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave.

I also don't think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to filter some of this stuff then to me it's not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex

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[Michael Offner]

I like heated debates a lot because I strongly believe that the best solution comes out of a compromise.

People that care about the topic get heated in discussions and that is great, if they are wrong or not does not matter because the true is mostly in the middle anyway ...

The problems are not the words itself, to problem is what you are doing with this words.

For me this discussion is only about one thing "Respect"!

Only because someone does not share your opinion does not mean he is a fool, fight as hard as you can for your opinion, but don't get personal to your opponent, show a little bit of respect!

I don't think that being a little bit respectful undermines your freedom of speech or does it?

Be nice

Micha

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