| ||||||||
|
| CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVILEGED - This e-mail and any attachment is intended solely for the addressee, is strictly confidential and may also be subject to legal, professional or other privilege or may be protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you are not the addressee please do not read, print, re-transmit, store or act in reliance on it or any attachments. Instead, please email it back to the sender and then immediately permanently delete it. Pixl8 Interactive Ltd Registered in England. Registered number: 04336501. Registered office: 8 Spur Road, Cosham, Portsmouth, Hampshire, PO6 3EB |
Lucee Core Developer
Lucee.org
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAFrbJ5WZ_XhtSqw3BaY-0%3DAJg0ZgJSDGU8zwJcXvVCrGAd%3DLSw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/54E772E7.6000204%40lucee.org.
I belong to a group called API Craft and they have a simple credo: think twice and email once. I think that is pretty good advice.
Alex,A few comments and questions, offered constructively:a. If there are to be guidelines, they will need to be captured and presented somewhere in order for community members or potential community members to know that such guidelines exist. I don't think it is safe to assume that everyone will simply "know how to behave". Summarizing them at the top of the welcome page for the group, for instance, would seem to me to be one logical place for that.
e. RE your comment about the effort of developing a code of conduct: that's effectively what you are proposing here, at some level.
+2
I would add to your list:
4. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words. This is a professional forum and users should behave accordingly.
It's the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using "bad language" that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as they're not used mean-spiritedly, what's the actual problem?
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/5e044194-0197-480f-8472-cc014230253c%40googlegroups.com.
In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of children.
One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity is only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position.
that includes kids. Kids. Don't swear. Don't do as I do.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAFwR%2BKeT-2Wz-iW79Avm-igOhbaZRbaweMJBM-WFmRqN8tJa-g%40mail.gmail.com.
I certainly wasn't. I was created fully formed.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAFwR%2BKd_8wQOqo_2X%2BQmbU-GbEfCGHCp1H7XwH268MndKUKB4Q%40mail.gmail.com.
Some anti-profanity laws were passed to shield women and children from foul-mouthed men. Consider this Michigan law: “Any person who shall use any indecent, immoral, obscene, vulgar or insulting language in the presence or hearing of any woman or child shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.”
Another Oklahoma law warns, “If any person shall utter or speak any obscene or lascivious language or word in any public place, or in the presence of females, or in the presence of children under ten (10) years of age, he shall be liable to a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), or imprisonment for not more than thirty (30) days, or both.”
Taken from http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/curses-blasphemy-profanity-laws-still-on-the-books
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/796a9e9d-0d18-4b93-a5d3-ed9483a17b3f%40googlegroups.com.
Note that whilst nearly all CoCs address "sexual language" (in addition to a long list of specific forms of harassment), they do not typically include swearing or profanity because that, in and of itself, is not harassment.
It was the inclusion of "No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words" as a discussion point that made me want to raise this, especially since several non-US members objected to that inclusion. As an ex-pat Brit, now an American citizen, I'm with Adam, Kai, Mark — profanity in and of itself should not be considered unacceptable behavior, as long as the _tone_ and intent is not exclusionary.
Sean
Simply stated, any such list is bullshit and has no place anywhere but a nanny state or perhaps some strict religious structure. I would certainly hope that this community would be neither of those.
OT but because you asked:Some anti-profanity laws were passed to shield women and children from foul-mouthed men. Consider this Michigan law: “Any person who shall use any indecent, immoral, obscene, vulgar or insulting language in the presence or hearing of any woman or child shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.”
Another Oklahoma law warns, “If any person shall utter or speak any obscene or lascivious language or word in any public place, or in the presence of females, or in the presence of children under ten (10) years of age, he shall be liable to a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), or imprisonment for not more than thirty (30) days, or both.”
Taken from http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/curses-blasphemy-profanity-laws-still-on-the-books
And fuckin' Kiwis too.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/8cec3a39-ea97-4456-8656-021fd0ee9515%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Hi,I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a handful of people being louder than most.The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and that people of all levels be that:1. English as a first language2. Experience of CFML and programming in general3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot down.Like all communities we decide the environment we create.I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave.I also don't think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals that you take the discussion elsewhere.If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to filter some of this stuff then to me it's not just them that loses out.In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how the community has rallied around it.Cheers
Alex--Alex Skinner
Managing Director
Pixl8 Interactive, 3 Tun Yard, Peardon Street, London
SW8 3HT, United KingdomT: +44 [0] 845 260 0726• W: www.pixl8.co.uk• E: in...@pixl8.co.uk
Follow us on: Facebook Twitter LinkedIn
CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVILEGED - This e-mail and any attachment is intended solely for the addressee, is strictly confidential and may also be subject to legal, professional or other privilege or may be protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you are not the addressee please do not read, print, re-transmit, store or act in reliance on it or any attachments. Instead, please email it back to the sender and then immediately permanently delete it. Pixl8 Interactive Ltd Registered in England. Registered number: 04336501. Registered office: 8 Spur Road, Cosham, Portsmouth, Hampshire, PO6 3EB
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/cdf1d649-9148-452f-a83d-b6c7cf2309bb%40googlegroups.com.
On Feb 23, 2015 2:36 AM, "Michael Offner" <mic...@lucee.org> wrote:
>
> The problems are not the words itself, to problem is what you are doing with this words.
Precisely what Kai, Adam, Sean, myself and others have said.
> For me this discussion is only about one thing "Respect"!
>
> Only because someone does not share your opinion does not mean he is a fool, fight as hard as you can for your opinion, but don't get personal to your opponent, show a little bit of respect!
>
Again, this is exactly what we've been saying. It seems that the only ones who disagree are Alex and Igal. They seem to believe that respect includes a specific list of taboo words, and that those words and professionalism/respect are mutually exclusive, which, of course, they are not.
> Be nice
> Micha
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 8:32 AM, ADK <and...@leftbower.com> wrote:
>>
>> the drama-to-substance ratio on this list is getting out of hand. So far since launch the hottest topics of discussion have been Google v. Discourse, FUD around CFML's future with Lucee, and international societal norms regarding profanity. How about we get back to the business at hand of creating software, eh?
>>
>> On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:30:06 AM UTC-8, Alex Skinner wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a handful of people being louder than most.
>>>
>>> The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.
>>>
>>> I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and that people of all levels be that:
>>>
>>> 1. English as a first language
>>> 2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
>>> 3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.
>>>
>>> That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot down.
>>>
>>> Like all communities we decide the environment we create.
>>>
>>> I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave.
>>>
>>> I also don't think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals that you take the discussion elsewhere.
>>>
>>> If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to filter some of this stuff then to me it's not just them that loses out.
>>>
>>> In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how the community has rallied around it.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alex Skinner
>>> Managing Director
>>>
>>> Pixl8 Interactive, 3 Tun Yard, Peardon Street, London
>>> SW8 3HT, United Kingdom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> T: +44 [0] 845 260 0726• W: www.pixl8.co.uk• E: in...@pixl8.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Follow us on: Facebook Twitter LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVILEGED - This e-mail and any attachment is intended solely for the addressee, is strictly confidential and may also be subject to legal, professional or other privilege or may be protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you are not the addressee please do not read, print, re-transmit, store or act in reliance on it or any attachments. Instead, please email it back to the sender and then immediately permanently delete it. Pixl8 Interactive Ltd Registered in England. Registered number: 04336501. Registered office: 8 Spur Road, Cosham, Portsmouth, Hampshire, PO6 3EB
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/cdf1d649-9148-452f-a83d-b6c7cf2309bb%40googlegroups.com.
>>
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAG%2BEEBwcHeHmVVndWDWcDD2%3D1vPk3sG-VSyBc2N-B7aDZD8RMg%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAKa5oq%2BoXHekwNKVbhe6o0ik9_Rdbo-5UX0QoqyosQRmKTi8mA%40mail.gmail.com.
|
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAFrbJ5XeL0LKacBmTeneA3-%3DT6dAH_6m9ZE6M7hZdgW%2Bvjt7rg%40mail.gmail.com.
I'm actually not disagreeing either.
yes, I still think it's unprofessional to use bad language in the public forum, and I still agree with Nando, Steven, and others that it can hurt the project (and the developers whose careers' revolve around it), but that's something that the Lucee Association should decide on because it reflects directly on the project.
my main beef here was when Adam told me to "fuck off" (on Feb 13th), which violates items 1, 3, 4, and 5 on your new list. Adam and I rarely agree on things, and that is fine, but he had absolutely no reason (nor right) to talk to me like that, nor for me to "accept it".
my response to Adam was also very unprofessional, of course, but I only responded that way because there is no other way of addressing this issue.
now, if we all agree that Adam's comment (as well as my reply to it, of course) is unacceptable -- then let's move forward -- we should post this list somewhere and point to it with a warning when someone violates it. multiple offenses would be dealt with differently.
but if anyone thinks that it's ok to talk to other members this way (or maybe it's only ok because it wasn't said to you) then we still have a problem here.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/54EB7A4E.4030402%40lucee.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAFrbJ5UX2ibUn%3DyA7u4remamgnK7EDgHi_3CXtYhG2jyWzLUYA%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/54EB8223.9000905%40lucee.org.
yes, I still think it's unprofessional to use bad language in the public forum,
my main beef here was when Adam told me to "fuck off" (on Feb 13th), which violates items 1, 3, 4, and 5 on your new list. Adam and I rarely agree on things, and that is fine, but he had absolutely no reason (nor right) to talk to me like that, nor for me to "accept it".
my response to Adam was also very unprofessional, of course, but I only responded that way because there is no other way of addressing this issue.
now, if we all agree that Adam's comment (as well as my reply to it, of course) is unacceptable -- then let's move forward -- we should post this list somewhere and point to it with a warning when someone violates it. multiple offenses would be dealt with differently.
but if anyone thinks that it's ok to talk to other members this way (or maybe it's only ok because it wasn't said to you) then we still have a problem here.
@Matt and AndrewI think you should both reread my original posting, I'm not sure, in this case that my views are that aligned with Igals per say, I didn't for a second suggest that profanity was relevant and I would be in favour of a light touch low bureaucracy approach to this. I actually said..."I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave."
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAFrbJ5XGmxNv8a2TS0SurafwpmHwzUsGe2w5o8YPZFQNS52B6Q%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAKa5oqK3nnEkVm3FrZmt6VmRxzmFcSy-TXh7ozsKzhaKy6NpuA%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/54EB8223.9000905%40lucee.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/DCA2644B-F3D8-4886-8678-84127BD9B684%40gmail.com.
so you still won't say that it's unacceptable for users to talk to each other like this on the list? this was not an offline conversation -- this was on the public list.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/CAGHrs%3D_achUgb%3DfdL16dT9JqAcw%2BiNcomzH86_WWcMtVT%2B4FYQ%40mail.gmail.com.
my main beef here was when Adam told me to "fuck off" (on Feb 13th), which violates items 1, 3, 4, and 5 on your new list. Adam and I rarely agree on things, and that is fine, but he had absolutely no reason (nor right) to talk to me like that, nor for me to "accept it".
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/371c651b-a437-40fd-bec2-7c5281046c3c%40googlegroups.com.
I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave.
OK, would you two just get a damn room already? :P
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lucee" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lucee+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lu...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lucee/215046cf-6ef8-4685-87d2-776160bf7e11%40googlegroups.com.
Items 1-5 on that list are pretty clear as to let's think about what we write. And no, I'm not getting into calling up individuals or individual examples, I'm not looking to point fingers I'm looking to improve things, we're not at school.