Why the world should adopt a basic income - Open Future

[Mark Barrett]

'Since the status quo is untenable and inequitable, opponents of BI should show what alternative they propose that would provide basic security while enhancing freedom and serving social justice. I have not seen any such proposal.'

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/04/why-the-world-should-adopt-a-basic-income

[Janos Abel]

And why so many in the Occupy Economics Workgroup were/are opposing it?

 

If a substantial BI is conceived as a fundamental Human Right in mature capitalist society, it strikes at the root of capital's power to oppress and exploit labour -- its creator. 

--------------------------------------------------
What we believe drives what we think and do

 

 

Sent: Friday, August 03, 2018 at 2:49 PM
From: "'Mark Barrett' via lsxcampeconomics" <lsxcampe...@googlegroups.com>
To: lsxcampe...@googlegroups.com, occupylondon <occupy...@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Why the world should adopt a basic income - Open Future

'Since the status quo is untenable and inequitable, opponents of BI should show what alternative they propose that would provide basic security while enhancing freedom and serving social justice. I have not seen any such proposal.'

 

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/04/why-the-world-should-adopt-a-basic-income

 

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[Mark Barrett]

Quite Janos ! 

Plus, what with Brexit deadline looming and Bannon, Farage  and Robinson on the radical right / facist horizon we do need to get our skates on. 

Another BI activist Scott Santens made a 1-minute video about UBI also for @TheEconomist's #OpenFuture contest: "One Thing to Build a More Open World." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=60&v=9im6AUg6Hec

On Friday, 3 August 2018, Janos Abel <good...@email.com> wrote:

And why so many in the Occupy Economics Workgroup were/are opposing it?

 

If a substantial BI is conceived as a fundamental Human Right in mature capitalist society, it strikes at the root of capital's power to oppress and exploit labour -- its creator. 

--------------------------------------------------
What we believe drives what we think and do

Sent: Friday, August 03, 2018 at 2:49 PM

From: "'Mark Barrett' via lsxcampeconomics" <lsxcampeconomics@googlegroups.com>
To: lsxcampeconomics@googlegroups.com, occupylondon <occupy...@lists.riseup.net>

Subject: Why the world should adopt a basic income - Open Future

'Since the status quo is untenable and inequitable, opponents of BI should show what alternative they propose that would provide basic security while enhancing freedom and serving social justice. I have not seen any such proposal.'

 

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/04/why-the-world-should-adopt-a-basic-income

 

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[Clive Menzies]

Hi Mark

See today's Daily Pickings which Scott retweeted: http://www.freecriticalthinking.org/daily-pickings/2722-basic-income-is-the-bait

Regards

Clive

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
Or we can liberate ourselves and each other through co-creative learning
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[John Courtneidge]

Dear fellow Occupistas,

In the plan for Co-operative Socialism, which we adopted 'as an alternative to capitalism' awhile back through a GA Process at St Paul's, the income aspect includes a 'Living Income for Everyone' as a guaranteed, not-means-tested income to all those normally resident in the UK, along with a paid-work-income cap for those who choose to do paid work.

The only problem we face is in mainstreaming this plan for Co-operative Socialism.

On 3 Aug 2018 14:49, 'Mark Barrett' via lsxcampeconomics <lsxcampe...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

'Since the status quo is untenable and inequitable, opponents of BI should show what alternative they propose that would provide basic security while enhancing freedom and serving social justice. I have not seen any such proposal.'

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/04/why-the-world-should-adopt-a-basic-income

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[David Dewhurst]

God or the Devil is generally in the details. Guy gives a ton of details in his books on BI & outlines alternatives.

Sure the libertarian right would love a basic payment to everyone & nowt else. We'd like something which people can live on decently with extra provision for disability although you also try to make the environment as 'different-abilities' friend as possible - free health services, easy access, communal support etc. Where do you go in practically, and how? Currently there's general agreement that initially housing will have to come separately in the UK (tho' I & many others have outlined how to crash accommodation prices).

So it boils down to how wide a wedge to you try to insert to get it going (& lever it up (or narrow it down if you're alt-right)).

The Charter of the Forest embodied the principle (more or less) of a living for all off the fruits of the economy - which we all accord with. How much you can pre-distribute free for all (decent air, roads, libraries, police, justice??, outdoor swimming, access to beauty spots, parks, water, internet etc. is a debate) The rest requires BI.

There's a ton of debate about how high a level of BI you can afford and a lot of airy implausible generalisations. If you can't articulate the tax base you're a wally. However I am sure that a decent to high level is fiscally possible. But is it politically?

I accept that a (not too moderate) gradualist approach will probably get us to where we want fastest (you ain't brought on the revolution yet bro) but how much will you compromise initially?

This is where it gets technical & complex and I don't see many debates based on plausible detailed estimates on email threads. Write a(nother) short/long paper if you like anyone.

Finally I reject any ad hominem arguement against Guy Standing. He got invited to Bilderberg and Davos. He knew what people would allege and he knew the oxygen of publicity it would generate (& in my view we don't only have to develop the economic understanding of the 99%). I know Guy and have worked with him and I appreciate his genuine concern and radicalism, - and a practicality which has delivered more for more vulnerable people than any of us have. 

John I've just read your email, as always, I look forward to your detailed plan with at least provisional ongoing cost modelling and projections as you implement the phases of your plan.

Best all,

Dave

-- 
Clive Menzies

https://www.clivemenzies.co.uk

We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
Or we can liberate ourselves and each other through co-creative learning
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[Clive Menzies]

Hi David

It was not an ad hominem attack but a statement of fact. In the pyramid of power, only those near the apex have an inkling of the wider agenda. Critical Thinking has applauded Guy's work on basic income and the Precariat and no doubt he is committed and sincere about social justice but there will never be a durable resolution until we have a shared understanding of the fundamental structure of the political economy.

We are farmed. Incentives and penalties ensure the domesticated human cattle never question authority nor challenge sanctioned narratives. Only through exploration of multiple perspectives can we see the whole picture.

Our world views are typically restricted by narrow perspectives. Limiting our vision starts with training to a curriculum at school 2 but extends through university into adult work life, reinforced by echoes of the common narratives all around us, from media, academia, politics, NGOs, etc. There is more than one script and perspectives may conflict, according to ideological leanings, but seldom are those ideological differences explored deeply enough to expand our understanding.

We resort to dialectics: binary debate which often descends into a dialogue of the deaf: left versus right, socialist v. capitalist, democrat v. republican, Keynes v. Hayek, etc. The narrowness of our perspectives and our unwillingness to listen to the “other” are major impediments to understanding the global political economy as a system. There are only right or wrong answers in this competitive structure of debate, leaving little room to explore the subtleties, ambiguities and layers of diversionary or deceptive narratives that obscure what’s really going on.

The parable or story of the Blind Men and the Elephant relates to differences in theology but is
equally applicable to this age of Mammon – rule by economics and markets.
Blind Men and the Elephant – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe

Regards

Clive

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[David Dewhurst]

Thanks Clive,

I did wonder a little, after I'd pressed 'send', whether I should have nuanced that phrase a little.

I would assert that it's usually illogical to argue against an opinion or policy because of the associations or other opinions of the advocate. Otherwise we'd be against vegetarianism, animal vivisection and Keynesian style state reflation because Hitler advocated these things.

I accord with much of your subsequent gist although using words does tend to make things sound neater, less fuzzy and less ambivalent than the actuality and therefore lead people to miss some potential pathways for change and amelioration.

All the best,

Dave

[John Courtneidge]

Dear Dave

You ask about costing and modelling the plan for Co-operative Socialism.

Steve Keen has made his economic modelling program, Minsky, free on the internet.

The plan for Co-operative Socialism is available at an Occupy London page: web searching the phrase "Co-operative Socialism" with the double parentheses gets straight to that page.

Alternatively, the papers' section at www.interestfreemoney.org has a two pager PDF, with the seven-point plan for Co-operative Socialism on page 2, and a five-article 'Readings on Co-operative Socialism' published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (the CCPA) in their monthly magazine, 'The CCPA Monitor'.

Finally:

If someone would like to help us by using Steve Keen's Minsky program to test the plan for Co-operative Socialism, then that would help matters along.

Again, thanks!

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
Or we can liberate ourselves and each other through co-creative learning
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[david wilkinson]

david and clive

I'm grateful to you both, to Clive for his larger perspective and focus on power structures, indoctrination, people-farming and ding-dong binary oppositions; and to David for his more pragmatic and detailed step-by-step approach while keeping his vision of past and future possibilities. I wonder, though, whether those at the apex have such a clear-cut agenda or grasp of political reality: the narrowness of their platform and distance from life as mostly lived may blind them to as much as their dizzy heights reveal so other people may be more able to recognise and mobilise the elephant in the room between them... And then there's the rare magic of personal liberation from statistical norms, a transformative crossing of class lines driven by chance affinity, imagination, empathy or purer logic. We owe such a lot to people who have been drawn or kicked out of their given ruts.

The other day I saw a wild-life programme that suggested, convincingly, that most threatened big beasts have a better chance of survival when farmed as prey for rich shooters than they do on less well-tended and policed nature reserves. And I have often wondered which came first, the domestication of people or other animals, if not for food, then for labour power. Both at the same time as the organisation and weapons used in war and hunting may be much the same. A key difference being that masters and slaves may always mate, thus opening new possibilites - now as then.

Greg

To: lsxcampeconomics@googlegro ups.com, occupylondon <occupy...@lists.riseup.net >

Subject: Why the world should adopt a basic income - Open Future

'Since the status quo is untenable and inequitable, opponents of BI should show what alternative they propose that would provide basic security while enhancing freedom and serving social justice. I have not seen any such proposal.'

 

https://www.economist.com/open -future/2018/07/04/why-the-wor ld-should-adopt-a-basic-income

 

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
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Dr D Dewhurst,        Joint Secretary,    Cybernetics Society        www.cybsoc.org    077399 73653

                                 17 Challis Rd. Brentford, Middx. TW8 9PP

               

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
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[Clive Menzies]

Thanks Eddie

Regards

Clive

On 05/08/18 10:48, eddie farrell wrote:

and and

Critical Thinking: 5 questions on Basic Income

Critical Thinking: 5 questions on Basic Income

Critical Thinking one further Basic Income question

Critical Thinking one further Basic Income question Critical Thinking @freecriticalthinking.org atmen 2016

in answer to why would those in power introduce ubi?

to make a cashless society to the populace more palatable

( in terms of a government controlled (cashless) monetary system

representing total control of the populace)

sounds like a probable reason

eddie

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From: Clive Menzies <cl...@clivemenzies.co.uk>
To: lsxcampe...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2018, 9:54
Subject: Re: Why the world should adopt a basic income - Open Future

From: "'Mark Barrett' via lsxcampeconomics" <lsxcampeconomics@googlegroups .com>

To: lsxcampeconomics@googlegro ups.com, occupylondon <occupy...@lists.riseup.net >

Subject: Why the world should adopt a basic income - Open Future

'Since the status quo is untenable and inequitable, opponents of BI should show what alternative they propose that would provide basic security while enhancing freedom and serving social justice. I have not seen any such proposal.'

 

https://www.economist.com/open -future/2018/07/04/why-the- world-should-adopt-a-basic- income

 

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
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Dr D Dewhurst,        Joint Secretary,    Cybernetics Society        www.cybsoc.org    077399 73653

                                 17 Challis Rd. Brentford, Middx. TW8 9PP

               

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
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[Clive Menzies]

Hi Dave

It's not anything to do with who or what promotes or advocates a particular position but to do with context. Indeed, we need multiple perspectives to understand the whole.

https://cocreativelearning.org

Regards

Clive

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[Clive Menzies]

Thanks Greg

And then there's the rare magic of personal liberation... Indeed, change starts from within ourselves.

Regards

Clive

[courtj]

Greg wrote:

. I wonder, though, whether those at the apex have such a clear-cut agenda or grasp of political reality:

I'm sure they do: to get, keep and accumulate.

Our vision is, not, 'What can I get?'.

But, rather, 'What can I give?'

The paradox is that the plan for Co-operative Socialism which we, in due Occupy London/LSX process, have adopted, 'As an alternative to capitalism', contains the plan to provide (ie give) a guaranteed, not-mean/s-tested ' Living Income for Everyone' (A LIFE not a Basic Income).

It now needs an Occupy Education activity to make that known.

And a Minsky modelling activity if anyone were fussed to do that.

For all, equally,

John

****

Sent from Samsung tablet.

[david wilkinson]

nobody ever thinks only of 'what I give' or 'what-can-I-get'. The spectrum runs through all of us and meets at both ends, which is why 'left' and 'right' also have their limits.

When I write, I never know how much of that is to discover or prove some truth, or to show how clever I am or simply prove I'm here - or there.

People can be greedy for honour, acclaim, one more leaf on a laurel, and the only really rich relation I had said money was just a means to and measure of success, he enjoyed getting things done and seeing them work for other people as well as himself, and didn't mind traffic jams because that gave him time to think... But I missed his funeral and went to see his former wife, my aunt, instead. I felt more for her, and he was already dead.....

This only occurs to me now, but later she missed her sister's funeral to keep to take my 11-year-old son on a pre-booked flight to Canada.

greg

[Peter Dombi]

Indeed.

People who think that the elites are driven by money and wealth miss the point entirely. They are driven by status (as indeed most of us are) and in our materialistic society, money is the purest form of status there is. I had a friend who earned around £250,000 per year at a company, and was fighting for a pay rise to £300,000. I asked him what he needed the extra money for, and he said he didn't need it, and in fact didn't need all the money he earned now. However some other people in his company earned £300,000, which meant they were more highly-regarded than him, he wasn't happy about that, and so he wanted a payrise to demonstrate he was as valued as they were.

Intellectual arguments about which economic 'system' is best are utterly pointless until we can somehow (and I don't know how) change society's value system, which currently rates someone's personal worth by how much money/wealth they have.

Peter