Re: [OccupyLondon] Fwd: Elizabeth, Quick Question about Occupy London

[David Dewhurst]

Well, I see it as a bit of fun but not of the greatest significance. Personal and business debt is far more tricky. Nice to see the establishment getting less frenzied about National Debt and acknowledging that it was at 250% post WW2 and will probably not get much past 100% under Rishi Sunak. This morning on Radio 4 the former Chief Economist of Goldman Sachs & some ex ministerial advisor were talking about the need to abolish Council Tax for something more progressive, convert inheritance tax to Capital Transfer tax and make it more progressive, People's QE with citizens income and borrow more at cheap rates - all squares we were on by 2012.

However Party Fnding lobbyists will probably retard this as many capitalists have a very short term perspective on their own self interest overall.

Dave

   Irrelevantly, following the lead of Slovakia and Poland towards mandatory face masks in public, should we not now all be promoting the wearing of burkas?

On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 01:24, Elizabeth Beech <occupy...@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

Anyone want to respond to Joel?

Liz

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Joel @ Commodity.com" <p...@howtotradecommodities.co.uk>
Date: 12 May 2020 at 22:08:36 BST
To: Elizabeth Beech <elizabe...@icloud.com>
Subject: Elizabeth,  Quick Question about Occupy London
Reply-To: "Joel @ Commodity.com" <p...@howtotradecommodities.co.uk>

Dear Elizabeth

I hope you are safe & well at this extraordinary time.

I noticed that you mentioned the Jubilee debt campaign on Occupy London on this page this page this page.

I'm writing because we've launched a tool at Commodity.com which I think your users may find interesting. I

t's an animated world debt clock, covering 40+ of the world's countries (+ more more coming soon). It's fully responsive & works on the mobile handsets that 40-50% of your users are reading on in 2020! ;)

I think it's a great visual way to understand what debt numbers really look like around the world.

You'll find the debt clock here:-

https://commodity.com/debt-clock/

Do you think it would make a good addition to your page on occupylondon.org.uk?

Either way, thank you for your time and consideration, Elizabeth.

Best wishes,

Joel

PS. Commodity.com's debt clock has been recommended by CNBC & The Huffington Post, and I'd be delighted if we'd be able to add Occupy London to that list, too ;)


 

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[david wilkinson]

I've often wondered about the see-sawing of private and public debt, and how far a squeeze one inflates the other. And I think we now need to uncouple the 'corporate' from 'small business', since corporate has always been such a publlic business in many ways, and 'small' often does mean bosses and workers more in touch with each other as private citizens.... Conversely, 'public service' institutions may be very corporate in their division of labour, power and rewarts - as becomes apparent when managers and other senior professionals work comfortably and safely from home while the lower order sweat and risk their lives at real work.....

Glad you're alive and kicking. Me too, and enjoying re-read of Marx early Economic and Philosophical Mss. Plus gardening and other nice places in easy reach.

Greg.

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[David Dewhurst]

Yup, when I wrote 'business debt' I thought, 'There's a lot to disentangle here. Will anybody pick me up on it?' Your distinction is obviously important, as are derivatives, tax avoiding schemes (aren't most of them?) and inter bank debt.    The more educated economic establishment seem to think it's crucial that the public regards money as a finite medium sized dry good rather than a kind of weak capacity to call upon other people's labour (or products of labour, or with e.g. land the labour of their ancestors/predecessors in fighting off/expropriating peasants) strengthened by groups who have been made dependent on 'rent seekers'. (We can't have everybody having enough.)

Favoured currencies are 'validated' by a legal system, coercion (army police), plausible pictures on paper or metal and plausible institutions with grand entrances like the traditional banks. With international currencies it helps to have a navy too.
I think distributed ledger type systems like blockchain ultimately depend on public shaming/invalidation despite their pseudo anonymity. I could be wrong but they've some way to go in building sufficient credibility (& security).

Hyperinflation represents an evaporation of faith due to 'overpromising.'

Stay well too, everyone, as far as you can..

Sorry for going on a lot. Just found today's Zoom meeting was yesterday. Yay

One day I'll read as much Marx as the rest of you. Maybe.

Best,

Dave

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[david wilkinson]

I'm pig ignorant but as I understand it, if enough big investors pile into stocks etc, the price will rise and they'll all make a killing even if there is much going on in any real industry behind the big-name companies. And this is all the more pronounced now that so many businesses are hedge-fund or private equity - little coteries of super high net worth investors and their fund managers.

And, behind all that, the absurdity of banks creating money whenever they lend it, to be realised only when they get it back but counted as an asset meanwhile.

Or have I got it all wrong? Do you know any (other) reputable eonomists who could explain to me?

Greg

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[Clive Menzies]

Hi Greg

You're pretty much on the right lines. We're in the process of putting together a paper on investment titled "The Age of Plunder is Dying" which follows on from this paper on Structures and Money in Transition. The slides attached are from a recent presentation to the Wealth Management Forum of the CISI.

More when the paper is finished.

Regards

Clive

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
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[David Dewhurst]

Thanks Greg and Clive,

I'm a fan of Steve Keen (Debunking Economics) and what I've read of his hero Hyman Minsky. I'm only part way through Grace Blakeley's book (Stolen) but it looks as if she might provide the analysis you want Greg. 

I enjoyed reading your slides and commentary Clive (ok the latter too fast) & while I don't share your views on Climate, CV19 or I think the coherence or leverage of people planning/hoping to profit from chaos and crisis I appreciate there are many useful perspectives there. To me 'credit tokens' are very close to the notion of money, which like notions of God you can play around with. As David Graber (influenced by Michael Hudson's research in particular) indicated money developed out of our natural sense of reciprocity but as more players than the Butcher, Baker and Candlestick-maker could keep track of became engaged the guarantors of the obligations/fair returns/debt system got the upper hand in parasitising the system with a mixture of accountancy, appeals to faith ('real' money) and force. 

I am interested to see how far far exchange systems without the last two elements can win out over systems with them. We both know/think that parts of Peter Pan was a satire on banking (Wendy's dad's job) and that fairies which died when you stopped believing in them was a point about various stocks and money. I think some of Marx's comments about 'use value' would tend to frustration if implemented in a real currency and pricing system - but that's a long paragraph. 

I don't think you are pig ignorant Greg (I don't know much about pig intelligence but apparently they regard us as equals) but I'd say what you say in your first paragraph is pretty correct often enough to some degree, though often with a lot of suckers/losers left behind. I don't find it absurd that banks 'create money' - a child minding circle or any coooperative reciprocating group does that, and the banks don't get all that money, they only :) get the interest on the money (faith system) they've created. If you did me a favour, and were needy, you'd want a bit more in return if I delayed reciprocating for a long time. 

All money is fiat money & sure if you fiat unbelievable amounts it evaporates (over-inflates) but if you keep it roughly in line with the work extraction/motivation capacity of the population you will be ok, though as people become more autonomous, able/willing to provide for themselves without much exchange they/we would need money less. With current population and technology levels autonomy, even with land reform, is too much hard work imo. I prefer money, which underlies my faith in human cooperation, even though that cooperative faculty easily gets hijacked by the regulators of the system and rent seekers.

It would seem simpler if it was more explicit.

Best,

Dave

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We can be confined by fear, ignorance, arrogance or ideology
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[Clive Menzies]

Thanks Dave

I recommend Virus Mania to understand how we've been misled on viruses and vaccines. The human body is far more complex than requiring a pill or injection for good health and illness rarely arises from single causes. Certificate of Vaccination ID... COVID. The pandemic industry is highly profitable, as are psychotropic drugs, antibiotics etc. but they aren't addressing causes and often do more harm than good. The key to health is our immune system and that is under constant attack from many quarters including unnatural frequencies but one of the biggest killers is fear and that is the state many people are in today.

https://www.outersite.org/fishing-in-a-barrel-of-fear/

Regards

Clive

PS. Check out Ice Age Farmer on climate and food shortages

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[David Dewhurst]

I think it's a dodgy idea (to post this debt clock) because it mischaracterises the use and dangers of different sorts of debt. Up to a point debt levels reflect collective faith in the future of human labour. Obviously the way much debt is engendered and enforced is out of order. Also I don't see why Occupy London should promote getting more punters into commodity trading with you.

Here is my previous unpacking of this which I'm not sure was passed through by OL moderators which is apparently a filter I need to appeal now.

(14 May 1pm) Well, I see it (your debt clock) as a bit of fun but not of the greatest significance. Personal and business debt is far more tricky. Nice to see the establishment getting less frenzied about National Debt and acknowledging that it was at 250% post WW2 and will probably not get much past 100% under Rishi Sunak. This morning on Radio 4 the former Chief Economist of Goldman Sachs & some ex ministerial advisor were talking about the need to abolish Council Tax for something more progressive, convert inheritance tax to Capital Transfer tax and make it more progressive, People's QE with citizens income and borrow more at cheap rates - all squares we were on by 2012.

However Party Fnding lobbyists will probably retard this as many capitalists have a very short term perspective on their own self interest overall.

(14 May 5pm) up, when I wrote 'business debt' I thought, 'There's a lot to disentangle here. Will anybody pick me up on it?' Your distinction is obviously important, as are derivatives, tax avoiding schemes (aren't most of them?) and inter bank debt.    The more educated economic establishment seem to think it's crucial that the public regards money as a finite medium sized dry good rather than a kind of weak capacity to call upon other people's labour (or products of labour, or with e.g. land the labour of their ancestors/predecessors in fighting off/expropriating peasants) strengthened by groups who have been made dependent on 'rent seekers'. (We can't have everybody having enough.)

Favoured currencies are 'validated' by a legal system, coercion (army police), plausible pictures on paper or metal and plausible institutions with grand entrances like the traditional banks. With international currencies it helps to have a navy too.
I think distributed ledger type systems like blockchain ultimately depend on public shaming/invalidation despite their pseudo anonymity. I could be wrong but they've some way to go in building sufficient credibility (& security).

Hyperinflation represents an evaporation of faith due to 'overpromising.'

I am open to further discussion but it may not be the best use of any of our times.

Best wishes for a mutually fair sustainable planet,

Dave

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 00:41, Elizabeth Beech <occupy...@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

FYI

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Joel @ Commodity.com" <p...@howtotradecommodities.co.uk>
Date: 18 May 2020 at 21:36:34 BST
To: Elizabeth Beech <elizabe...@icloud.com>
Subject: Elizabeth,  Quick Question about Occupy London
Reply-To: "Joel @ Commodity.com" <p...@howtotradecommodities.co.uk>

Dear Elizabeth

I'm following up to make sure you didn't miss my email about your mention of the Jubilee debt campaign. What did you think about my idea of citing our brand-new debt clock at Commodity.com alongside it?

Hope you'll agree that the Commodity.com debt clocks look great (especially on mobile!) & are a helpful, visual way of understanding debt data.

Can I answer any questions, perhaps?

Joel

[david wilkinson]

I dont have any deep objection to money or interest as such. What's wrong is the way these facilities are distributed, rewarded or punished.

How should governments or banks decide how much money to create and circulate? NOT by pegging it to GNP or volume of present of predicted transactions because that would prolong an unsustainable status quo or tip us from bad to worse....

Could we find some way of quantifying and charting human needs in relation to sustainable extraction of human labour and other material resources?

I'm just feeling around me in the dark, and wish I knew more about it all. I've just posted the following to family, friends and people round Swansea. Join in if you feel like it.

HOMEWORK FOR A BETTER WORLD

Mon, 18 May at 18:26

I am sharing this on a Red/Green email-group and with Swansea Facebook groups Politics for Everybody, Friends of the Earth, Swansea Labour Left and Extinction Rebellion. Why? Because there are big and small things that we badly need to think about together. The big issue as we emerge from Covid lockdown will be what next, how to get out ot the hole and in what direction, what to go back to and what to avoid - like the plague.

As I see it now, the two or three biggest threats to life were already bearing down on us before the virus slipped in: the double whammy of accelerating climate change and deepening inequality and the destructive hegemony of capitalism which drives them both.

To many of us this had already become obvious, but now there are more general do-or-die decisions to be made . How to salvage or recreate what's left of life as we know it. And what I would like to do, in your company, is think through some options and alternatives. For a start, can we make up our own check-list of things to save and things to change.

That choice and quest is at once personal, practical and political, local, national and global. We are all the creatures of nature and history. Like other species we have both predatory and nurturing instincts entwined in our DNA and ramified through our culture and social structures. A contradictory mixture: we have the capacity to connect, co-operate and share, win-win; to compete, divide and rule, win-or-lose; and a balancing act between them.

This existential equilibrium has been thrown awry by a globalised economic system that sets predation and greed before caring and sharing. (Caution: capitalism is not just a modern invention but the elaboration of a much older human history of domination, misappropriation and servitude. the triumph of war lords and landowners and priesthood that we have learned to call civilisation.)

Karl Marx famously targetted industrial and financial Capital in the mid 19th century. Before narrowing down on the mathematics of Das Kapital, he outlined underlying facts of life: as human beings we are at once the product of nature and, than as now, its authors. We have found the understanding and skills it took to appropriate and reshape the world in our own image. Human consciousness enables us both to recognise ourselves both as one species among many, but also a species apart, uniquely well placed to replot other ways of life as well as our own.

Thats an extraordinary responsibility. For better or worse, we can rely on no other almighty god or Natural Law to save our skins. It's up to us to make up our minds, decide and act together for better or worse all round..

Of course I know that lots of others, groups and organisations, have been working along these lines for years, and I couldn't have written this without them, but that doesnt let the rest of us off the hook,

Please join me if you can and feel like it. For a start, just name and outline two or three things you most want to save from the past, and two or three things you long to do or see done ASAP. No tick-boxes, no marks, just your own words. I'll try to keep up with my own homework as you do yours. As author of this little squibb, I will try to help keep it spinning by collating, editing and feeding back what we come up with between us.

Part of what prompted this today was a funny little dream I had last night. I was with out in Swansea with some group of friends, looking for a vantage point as a setting for a commemorative (?) photo. By the time I woke up, we were heading uphill on a local bus. Maybe an image borrowed from the  Italian Job film, now relocated to the corniche in front of Townhill, our bus now half-on-half-off where the land drops sharply away toward the city centre.

No gold bars, just a life to be going on with...

Now, as far as I know, I'm wide awake and would love your suggestions for best ways on, what to avoid.

RSVP

Greg

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