Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

[Johan B. van Niekerk]

> Dear people on the list,
>
> I've been reading articles regarding the adding of ACETONE (in small quantities) to fuel.
>
> These article are very positive in favour of doing so.
>
> Q's:
> Has anyone done it?
> What are the Pros and Cons?
>
> For people not familiar with this please go to http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/
>
> If this article is true I am prepared to give it a shot.
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
> Johan B van Niekerk
>

[Gys Vermeulen]

Hi Johan
Eric Sommer from the offroad marshal unit and Overlanf forum group is
using this and claims 10 -15 % less fuel. I have tried it on the V8
and it feels more efficient. Do not know if I have used this more
power to drive faster but could not better my normal 6km/l on the open
road. I must say that I was not very accurate in my testing
methiodology. I used 5 liters of acetone and then stopped the
experiment.

It was quite hilarious to pour the acetone in the tank before filling
with petrol (Eric recommended that you pour the acetone in first and
not on top of the petrol - something to do mith the mixing). Any way I
used a half jack brandy bottle to measure the amount needed. The
petrol guys were very curious about this "brandy" that I add to the
car. My usual reply didnot help either: "He also needs a drink - just
like me!"

Any how no harm was done to the engine but I could not get a much
better if any consumption from it.
Groetnis
Gys

--
Gys Vermeulen
Phambili Africa Safaris
Registered Overland Guide GP2096, Animal Scientist
email address: gys.ve...@gmail.com
Cell RSA: (+27)(0)8243473
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Dikgomo ke banka ya Motswana

[Daneel van Eck]

This article has a negative view toward acetone in fuel:

http://neubranderinc.com/blog/2007/01/03/acetone-in-gasoline-busted/

[Peter Tiedt]

On 7/24/2007, "Daneel van Eck" <dan...@pros.co.za> wrote:

>
>This article has a negative view toward acetone in fuel:
>
>http://neubranderinc.com/blog/2007/01/03/acetone-in-gasoline-busted/
>
>

>>Eric Sommer from the offroad marshal unit and Overlanf forum group is
>using this and claims 10 -15 % less fuel. I have tried it on the V8
>and it feels more efficient. Do not know if I have used this more
>power to drive faster but could not better my normal 6km/l on the open
>road. I must say that I was not very accurate in my testing
>methiodology. I used 5 liters of acetone and then stopped the
>experiment.

The general consensus was that the (small) gains were not worth the PT
and schlepp.

PT

[Andre Oberholster]

Join the LROC and gain some knowledge by attending Technical
days......:-)

During a very informative Technical day to Sasol arranged by one of our
members, One of the major philosophies around the chemical compositions
of fuel was how to eliminate or minimise wear.
To me it was a major eye-opener as to how much trouble the fuel
companies go to to add or remove compounds that affect engine wear. It
was also quite astounding to see how critical minute changes to fuel
additives can adversely affect engine wear. There was a whole room full
of cylinder bores with various stages of wear used to test various fuel
compositions.

Maybe I'm gullible, but I sincerely belive that if Acetone had any
merits, the chemical engineers with decades of combined experience would
know about it. Maybe they do. But I saw with my own eyes what a 'wrong'
additive does to an engine cylinder....

But then, It's your cylinder and you can put in there what you want to
:-).

-----Original Message-----
From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Tiedt
Sent: 24 July 2007 10:38
To: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com

PT

Directors
Prof GJ Gerwel* (Chairman) Dr. K Ngqula (President and Chief Executive), LM Mojela*, A Ngwezi*, F Du Plessis*, M Kalyan*, M Whitehouse, 1Dr N Moyo*, 2Dr J Schrempp*, B Modise*, PG Joubert*
*Non Executive, 1 Zimbabwean, 2 German
Thelma Melk Company Secretary
South African Airways (Proprietary) Limited Reg. No. 1997/0022444/07. The information in this e-mail is confidential and is legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If this e-mail is not intended for you, you cannot copy, distribute or disclose the included information to anyone.

[Rob Cumming]

> During a very informative Technical day to Sasol arranged by one > of our
> members, One of the major philosophies around the chemical
> compositions
> of fuel was how to eliminate or minimise wear.
> To me it was a major eye-opener as to how much trouble the fuel
> companies go to to add or remove compounds that affect engine
> wear.

I have used it off and on for the past year or so in the ratio of 2.5
mm of acetone to 1 litre of fuel (hope I have my figures right!). I
have a positive view on it, it feels to me my vehicle runs better with
improved acceleration and cruising speed, and my consumption is a bit
better. I have not measured speed and consumption accurately, so a bit
subjective at the moment. However it certainly pulls better when
loaded on a long trip. It is a bit of a schlep to add the acetone each
time before filling up though.

I have had no wear or breakage problems using it, and understand that
it reduces harmful emissions considerably, which is a primary reason
that I continue to use it (being a Land Rover owner and with the club
green policy and all...).

I was impressed with the website promoting it for 2 reasons :

- years of research and usage, no instant magic
- slow, repetitive and incremental experimentation to understand the
issues, allied to other known factors like breathing etc

It all seemed like common sense and experimentation rather than wild
claims and a "sudden breakthrough" like so much marketing bumpf these
days.

Have a look at the website and decide for yourself :

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

Rob

[Dr Andre Vander Merwe]

Bell reports from England that racing teams use 5% acetone or 3% ether mixed with lrp and ulp racing fuel for a 7% improvement in performance. He warns that one should first check if such additives are not already in the petrol by examining specific gravity.

Fuel characteristics

	Specific gravity	RON	MON	Fuel/air ratio (lb/lb)	Heat energy (Btu/lb)
Acetone	0.79			1:10.5	12,500
Avgas 100/130
‘green’	0.69	105-110	100-102	1:12.9
‘blue’	0.71	105-110	100-102	1:12.7
Benzol	0.88	105-110	95-100	1:11.5	17,300
Ethanol	0.79	108-115	90-92	1:6.5	12,500
Ether (diethyl)	0.71				15,000
Methanol	0.79	105-115	89-91	1:4.5	9,800
Nitro methane	1.13			1:2	5,000
Nitro propane	1.05				6,700
Petrol
premium unleaded	0.74	96	85-86	1:12	19,000
premium leaded	0.73	96	86	1:12.5	19,000
racing leaded (USA)	0.73	112-114	102-104	1:12.7
racing unleaded (USA)	0.75	104-106	94-96	1:13.2
racing unleaded 100	0.75	100	90-92	1:13.0
Propylene oxide	0.83				14,000
Toluol (methyl benzene)	0.87	120-124	110-112	1:9.8
Triptane	0.69	110-112	100-102
Xylene	0.86	117-118	115-116

 

Combustion is between hydrogen and oxygen so the more of these elements are added the more improved combustion will be keeping in mind to avoid additional carbon. Acetone adds carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Methanol by the way adds 300% to power output. See list below:

 

Forms of hydrocarbon

Candle wax	CH2
Actone	CH3COCH3
Methanol Alcohol	CH3OH
Natural gas/Methane	CH4
Acetylene	C2H2
Ethylene	C2H4
Ethanol Alcohol	C2H5OH
Ethane	C2H6
Propane	C3H8
Butadiene	C4H6
Butane	C4H10
Gasoline	C8H18
Terrene/Turpentine	C10H16

 The % mix stated in the web site seem very small however some of the explanations will need to be checked as I am not convinced by the surface tension idea. With lrp looking more like paraffin or perhaps turpentine from the table above additional volatility would be welcome which acetone would add. I have been thinking of adding nitro thinners.

DOCVAN

 

-----Original Message-----
From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Johan B. van Niekerk
Sent: 24 July 2007 09:41
To: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

 

 

> Dear people on the list,

[Eric Economon]

While on the topic of fuel: Should I use LRP or UL in my 1990 Def 110 V8 3.5l?

 

Thanks

Eric Economon

[Hendri Downing]

I dont think it matters on the 3,5 V8

 

 

Hendri Downing
Munster Shell Service Station

[Andre Oberholster]

Either. It will make no difference. Aluminium heads already incorporate hardened valve seats that allow for the use of ULP that has not got the lubricity of the lead to prevent valve recess on cast iron heads.   Using LRP will have no advantage or other effects.   Rgds, Andre O.

-----Original Message----- From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Economon Sent: 25 July 2007 08:23

Directors   Prof GJ Gerwel* (Chairman) Dr. K Ngqula (President and Chief Executive), G Griffith (Chief Financial Officer), LM Mojela*, F Du Plessis*, M Kalyan*, M Whitehouse, ¹Dr N Moyo*, ²Dr J Schrempp*, B Modise*, PG Joubert*  * Non Executive, ¹ Zimbabwean, ² German

Thelma Melk Company Secretary           South African Airways (Proprietary) Limited Reg. No. 1997/0022444/07.

Disclaimer The information in this e-mail is confidential and is legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If this e-mail is not intended for you, you cannot copy, distribute or disclose the included information to anyone and request that the mail be deleted. While all reasonable steps have been taken to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all data transmitted electronically, SAA does not accept liability if the data, for whatever reason, is corrupt or does not reach its intended destination. Please note that this e-mail and the contents thereof is subject to the standard SAA E-mail Disclaimer which may be found at http://www.flysaa.com/legal/za_email_disclaimer_frameset.html . Should you not have access to the internet, send an e-mail to requestd...@flysaa.com and a copy will be sent to you.

[Bertus Bekker]

It seems as if spark plugs last longer with ULP

 

Also if you are planning to ever fit an O2 sensor to monitor mixture, you can only use ULP.

 

Some say ULP is more poisonous than other petrols, so keep away from the fumes even more when handling it.

 

[Dr Andre Vander Merwe]

People are reporting good results with 95 ulp, average with 93 ulp and poor with 93 lrp.

Docvan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Economon
Sent: 25 July 2007 08:23
To: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Fuels

 

While on the topic of fuel: Should I use LRP or UL in my 1990 Def 110 V8 3.5l?

 

Thanks

Eric Economon

[Jan Ras]

Docvan

What happened to your analysis of last year ?

Should we not look at this again ???

 

---

From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dr Andre Vander Merwe
Sent: 24 July 2007 05:05 PM
To: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Re: Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

[Prof Andre Vander Merwe]

After much deliberation I am of the opinion that the fastest cheapest best solution is to add home brewed ethanol (115 octane) to petrol from 50 to 90%. Ethanol can be brewed safely at home using any fruit and any vegetable in any condition in a distillation process. Good news is that you can also drink it with your favorite mix.

 

Docvan.

Combustion is between hydrogen and oxygen so the more of these elements are added the more improved combustion will be keeping in mind to avoid additional carbon. Acetone adds carbon, hydrogen and oxygen Methanol by the way adds 300% to power output. See list below:

[Rob Cumming]

Tell us more ! Aside from the deliberation have you run vehicles with
such a home brew, or is this an early April Fool's prank ? :-)

Rob


On Jul 11, 12:23 pm, "Prof Andre Vander Merwe" <an...@infinite.org.za>
wrote:

[Prof Andre Vander Merwe]

In the 60's 100% ethanol was sold in SA at a separate pump (later known as
cane spirits and sold at bottle stores). During the 70's all petrol the
world over changed to a ethanol mix. Currently what you are buying as petrol
locally is about 50% ethanol, 40% sythenthetics 5% water and 5% gasoline (up
to 10% water will boost performance). Gasoline is the correct chemical name
for what you thought of as petrol i.e. made from oil. Ethanol is the correct
chemical name for alcohol for human consumption i.e. made from veg and
fruit. Methanol is the chemical name for alcohol poisonous to humans made
from leaves and wood. Methanol is 300% more efficient than petrol but one of
the exhaust gas's is hydrochloric acid and it gels within a few hours of
being poured in a tank i.e. you cannot leave it in the tank overnight. So if
your engine delivers 100Kw with petrol then change to Methanol for 300Kw. If
every conceivable mechanical aspect of your engine is perfected no more than
50% additional power would be realized. So modifying the fuel is the
quickest, easiest and cheapest option.
Docvan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Cumming" <rcum...@ananzi.co.za>
To: "LROC Techtorque Discussion Forum" <lroc-te...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Re: Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

>

[albert]

three questions :
1) if you generate "hydrogen" through electrolysis, do you get
hydrogen or OH? the latter being very volatile and explosive.
2) if you introduce water to boost performance, would you introduce
it through a venturi system or inject with a pump and nozzle?
3) in the UK it is quite popular to convert (especially Land Rover
V8) to gas (cheaper to run, less polluting, better performing and
cooler running engine). i understand that gas is relatively cheap in
the UK because it is exemp from the same taxes as Petrol. has anyone
done sums to compare the running costs of petrol vs gas?

On Jul 12, 9:59 am, "Prof Andre Vander Merwe" <an...@infinite.org.za>
wrote:

> >> Docvan.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Prof Andre Vander Merwe]

Hydrogen gas is a mixture of two different forms, orthohydrogen (in which
the nuclei of the two atoms in each molecule spin in parallel) and
parahydrogen (in which the nuclei spin antiparallel). Ordinary hydrogen
contains about three-fourths of the ortho form and one-fourth of the para
form. Para is used as an octane booster and ortho as a fuel both are low
explosive which means the flame front is capable of 500 meters per second.
Orthohydrogen, a very powerful and fast burning gas created by electrolysis.

So hydrogen is a fast burn rather than an explosion at low pressure as
explosions only start at flame fronts traveling around 1000 meters per
second.

Currently I think government just pours water into the petrol. I developed a
water sprayer to cool the radiator and noticed more power when the sprayer
was on especially on hills. So it does not matter if it is in the petrol or
in the inlet manifold.

All the kit is available locally for LPG ( about 6000 to 9000 rand) but the
local gas is to expensive to make it viable R880.00 for 48 Kg.

[Andre Oberholster]

Albert, I'm just going to touch on the gas thing:

LPG has 20% less calorific value that petrol. This means that, to get the same power, the installer has to add 20% extra LPG gas to the injectors to get the same power - now that means the fuel consumption on gas is 20% more than for petrol. Fact.
The gas tank is huge - 90 litres is a tank of meter x approx 350mm.
Installation costs is more than 10 grand. The price of gas has to be calculated, but I'm not sure what it is at the moment. I believe it around 30% cheaper than petrol.
When making the sums to recover the installation costs vs the space lost in the load bay, it did not make sense.

I spent the money on Megasquirt and got a lot more power with the same (maybe more) fuel savings. The installation costs were similar, but I don't now have to search for a gas filling depot that is every 500km apart....if you are lucky.

Best Regards,
André O.

Directors
Prof GJ Gerwel* (Chairman) Dr. K Ngqula (President and Chief Executive), LM Mojela*, F Du Plessis*, M Kalyan*, M Whitehouse, ¹Dr N Moyo*, ²Dr J Schrempp*, B Modise*, PG Joubert*
*Non Executive, ¹ Zimbabwean, ² German
Thelma Melk Company Secretary
South African Airways (Proprietary) Limited Reg. No. 1997/0022444/07. The information in this e-mail is confidential and is legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If this e-mail is not intended for you, you cannot copy, distribute or disclose the included information to anyone.

[Mike Ilsley]

I caught the last few moments on an article on Discovery/National Geographic where they have managed to compress gasses by a factor of more than 10 times over the existing compression, meaning that they hypothesize that gas tanks will become smaller with a similar factor. I missed most of the article, but this could be a huge breakthrough in the quest for efficient transport of gasses for automotive use. Possibly someone else saw the piece and can shed some light on it?

Rgds
Mike

Mike Ilsley
Delivery Manager
Information Technology
Comair Limited
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Cell: +27 (0) 82 880 8695
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Best Regards,
André O.

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[Rob Cumming]

Andre, did you convert from a carb to Megasquirt, or from standard LR
EFI to Megasquirt ? If the latter then I am impressed at the results
you mention, as in my non technical world I would have assumed one EFI
cannot be much different from another. ( waiting for Philip to chip in
here :-) ).

Agree with your comments on LPG, I have also looked at it and found
the costs vs savings to be wrong, as well as the fact that LPG over
border is not easily available when doing trips.

Rob

[Andre Oberholster]

Rob, Philip is leaving the 'chipping in' for me to do.....As end user I am not biased.

The fuel savings is entirely dependant on the original state of 'tune' as determined by the ECU. The Lucas 14CUX ECU is particulary prone to overfuelling. I can only summise as to the reasoning behind the designer's methodology, but I would say it would be to smooth out any glitches i.e. cold start, acceleration, ensuring a cool running engine etc etc. Some are bad, some are worse, some not as bad. The Disco II's with the Bosch EFI seem to be somewhat better, but I have seen roads tests of some bad examples. But this is not only reserved to Landies - my Son's Alfa 147 2.0 is getting no more than 10 k/l during cruise either - EFI does not necessarily mean efficient fuelling.

Philip has just recently done a 3.5 V8 carb conversion to Megasquirt EFI with great success.
I have converted my 3.9 EFI to Megasquirt. Just to provide some clarification: Megasquirt is no magic, genie-driven wonder tool that somehow manages to make an engine go on air or water or vegetable peels instead of normal fuel. Megasquirt is simply an ALTERNATIVE EFI system that is fully programmable. It controls both fuel and ignition timing and allows you, the driver, to select the Air-Fuel ratio's that are 100% optimum for the driving conditions. It simply takes away or adds fuel to the combustion chamber.

For instance: lets take a road from Cape to Cairo: approx 33% is uphill, 33% level road, and 33% is downhill. The engine requires very little fuel to maintain momentum downhill. We removed a lot of fuel. On level roads, you only need to overcome rolling and wind resistance. We again removed a lot of fuel without sacrificing in any way. On uphills,we also managed to remove a lot of fuel to achieve near stoichiometric correct figures and a bit more with flat-out openings. The Lucas ECU was very generous with wide throttle openings.
Now everyone is thinking 'lean' = burning pistons, liner damage, loose liners etc etc. Not true - the lean figures are only under very low cylinder loads (<30 %). Megasquirt can be tuned to instantaneously add fuel when engine loads demand.
Timing: I have managed to achieve a 50% increase in torque in the bottom quadrant of driving, that typical off-roading condition of low rpm and low throttle openings. Just by optimising timing. It feels like a small-block Chevvy! Flat-out power at top rpm's has not changed much, but that is not the objective. I have achieved a 25-30% improvement in fuel consumption with much enhanced driveability in the normal 95% of my driving parameters, i.e. between 1500-2800 rpm, with under 60% throttle openings. In fact, I would presume that I am running very close to a Tdi Disco in normal driving conditions and no more than 10% more under trail conditions. Difference is, I have nearly double the power under demand.
What Am I achieving? Reasonably Level road cruise (Pta to Nylstroom)@ 120 kph true GPS corrected speed and distance: 8 k/l.

Regards,
André O.

-----Original Message-----
From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Cumming
Sent: 14 July 2008 09:55:Andre
To: LROC Techtorque Discussion Forum
Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Re: Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

Rob

[Andre Oberholster]

Mike, as far as LPG is concerned - it is LIQUID Petroleum Gas, already compressed into it's liquid form. It cannot be compressed any more, hence the huge storage cylinders required.
Maybe I'm talking out of context as I did not see the program.

Regards,
André O

[Mike Ilsley]

They were not talking about LPG, it was other gases, but I also did not see enough to comment.

[Jakob Jordaan]

Andre,

The program was about taking LPG and with new molecular technology, to
compress it tenfold in order to reduce transport costs

Groete

Jakob
082-808-1422

[Andre Oberholster]

Thanks Jakob. Maybe they will compress the price ten-fold....

A.

[Rob Cumming]

Thanks Andre, as always a comprehensive explanantion.

Cheers
Rob

On Jul 14, 11:03 am, "Andre Oberholster" <AndreOberhols...@flysaa.com>
wrote:

[Prof Andre Vander Merwe]

Positing this on behalf of Walter

"I have started using 95 Octane with my 1400 Polo (company vehicle :-
( ). Using 93 I got 650km per 55l tank and with 95 I now get
750km :-), (Two years ago, on a trip to CT I got 850km on a tank, so
I'm anticipating 950-1000km this Xmas.) I'm not sure that 95 will make
a difference on a V8 but at about 20c per liter extra it is well worth
experimenting.

I agree with Doc Van's earlier sentiments, there are experst out there
who's job is is to make fuels more efficient. If the benefits outweigh
the disadvantages then surely they would already be doing so.
Walter"

I have it on good authority that BP 95 ULP is fully imported from UK and
have several people reporting very good consumption using it.
Docvan.

[Philip Lochner]

From the little that I understand about the internal combustion engine, I present a theory as to why 95 may give better fuel consumption than 93, specifically on a high compression engine, fitted with EFI where the ECU controls timing using knock sensor(s) and a distributorless ignition system.  This is actually a good example of the value  of efficiently controlled ignition timing.

I understand that the "only" difference between 93 and 95 is supposed to be the tendency to knock (aka ping aka detonate).  93 and 95 is supposed to have the same energy content - so they say - but 95 will tend to knock at higher compression ratios than 93.

If a high compression engine is running on 95 the knock sensors will allow the spark to be generated earlier (ie more advance) thereby allowing the combustion process more time to occur for more complete (efficient) combustion of the existing fuel, thereby generating max cylinder pressure and hence more torque at a given operating point of the engine.  This will translate to lower fuel consumption as your engine is running more efficiently. 

Running the same engine on 93 will cause knock to set in earlier, the knock sensors will detect detonation and the ECU will retard the spark until detonation is no longer detected but this results in a less efficient combustion process, less power and therfore a heavier foot = higher fuel consumption.

95 vs 93 should make no difference on a low compression engine or indeed any engine that does not have intelligent ignition control - unless there ARE other differences between the fuels which the consumer is not told about... 

95 may yield better consumption on even a carburetted Rover V8 provided it is a high compression engine and the dissy is set for optimal spark advance (which should be more advanced than with 93).

Best regards
Philip


]-----Original Message-----
]From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com
][mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Prof
]Andre Vander Merwe
]Sent: 14 July 2008 06:18 PM
]To: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com

]Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Re: Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

]
]
]
]Positing this on behalf of Walter

]

[Derrick Slogrove]

It all depends where you fill up.. Oil companies share terminals, share refinery supplies etc. The differentiator is the additive added as the tanker is filled at the terminal. There is some fully imported refined product as we don't have enough refining capacity in SA, but with no additives. What is a fact is that the cleaner fuels program has resulted in the refineries battling to maintain octane levels, so there is lots of interest in MTBE, TAME and other oxygenates to boost the octane levels. Investigations into E10 (10% Ethanol) and higher are also underway. Sweden runs E85 (85% Ethanol) causing big handling problems

 

Derrick

[Prof Andre Vander Merwe]

Government dictates that 100% of SASOL production must be consumed every month. That means that all petrol in SA is Sasol based with and additive package specific to each point of sale. Petrol made from oil is added to make up short fall only after every possible synthetic alternative has been added.

 

Adding octane slows down the flame speed and resists detonation or ping. This allows peak pressure to be achieved later resulting in more torque as mean effective torque angle improves from 10 deg ATDC to about 15 deg ATDC improving effective stroke from 1 mm to 1.2 mm. (This is the length of effective stroke at peak pressure 10 deg ATDC) The later peak pressure can be made to occur the more torque will be produced up to the point where the big end main crankshaft relation forms a 90 deg angel with the con rod (about 58 deg ATDC) which is the point of peak torque. (Keep in mid the flame goes out after 20 deg ATDC) This is why methanol makes 3 times the power as peak pressure occurs 3 times later (3X15=45 deg ATDC) and why steam is the most powerful as mean effective pressure is equal to peak pressure. Higher compression adds pressure resulting in more heat resulting in higher peak pressure but higher pressure also aids in slowing down the flame front.

 

Docvan

>> chemical name for alcohol for human consumption i.e made from veg and

[Derrick Slogrove]

Docvan,

 

Sasol does not ship product into Chevron Refinery, Engen Refinery or Sapref. These refineries distribute their own production to all oil companies except Sasol, with appropriate additives. Sasol do however blend diesel with output from Natref to increase sulpher content of Sasol diesel, but no other refineries blend in synthetic product from Sasol. Secunda's entire production is consumed on the reef with a small percentage going other Sasol Service Stations around the country. As I said, SA doesn't have sufficient refining capacity to meet the countries needs, including Sasol's CTL plants so a small percentage of fuel is imported. Sasol has currently embarked on a project to increase Secunda's capacity by 20%, Sasol 4 in Secunda is in the prefeasibility study stage, Project Mafutha in the Waterberg (Sasol 5) is also in prefeasibility stage while all the others are looking at some type of capacity expansion. PetroSA is also planning the new refinery at Coega for imported crude oil.

 

Derrick

[Prof Andre Vander Merwe]

Hi Derrick,

 

My information comes from a case involving BP, Ministry of Energy affairs and Sasol in which BP claims that Sasol delivery of 95 ULP base stock is unreliable hence their decision to import petrol from BP UK direct I am told that direct sales of Sasol petrol is poor and that in order the keep operations viable Government has regulated oil companies in South Africa to utilize 100% of Sasol production. My contact at SPOORNET confirms delivery of Sasol petrol to other oil companies by rail tanker. This may apply to Gauteng only of the extent I have no information as petrol distribution falls under the official secrets act.

 

Docvan

[Derrick Slogrove]

Hi Docvan,

 

My company is directly involved in the petrol distribution chain (supplying metering equipment, pumps, additive injection systems, gantry automation systems and vapour recovery plants) and have done work and have installations at practically all the terminals in the country, the most recent of which was the Chevron Refinery. Chevron Refinery directly supplies Total Engen and Chevron in the Western Cape from the Milnerton terminal and pipes product to the BP and Shell Terminal about 2 km down the road. Engen, Shell, Total all use rail tankers as well as bridging road tankers to supply fuel to the reef and other locations inland from Durban. So as far as I know, certainly at the coast there is no blending of Sasol product with other refineries output, and I am pretty sure that it doesn't happen inland either, but all the oil companies do get synthetic fuel from Secunda for reef use (Shell is moving to use their own product  from SAPREF on the reef) There is a pipeline from Secunda to the reef which supplies terminals directly and the pipeline from the coast runs up to the reef as well. Both are over utilised hence the rail distribution and road tanker bridging. The plans are well underway for a new pipeline from Durban to Joburg with larger capacity.

 

I also doubt that they will mix product at the terminals as quality control would be very difficult if two sources are mixed in the same storage tank.

 

My 2c anyway..

 

Derrick

[albert]

I was advised to look at the MFI system as opposed to the EFI.
apparently more advanced, more reasonably priced and less technical
difficulties. Also fully programmable and locally made and
supported. Does anyone have any experience with this system? the
Megasquirt system is approx 3 times the price. I don't dispute the
efficiency but need to quantify the rand for rand comparison as this
unit is imported.

the standard 3.9 airflow meter is suseptable to "deterioration"
especially whith offroad driving. apparently the airflow meter on the
MFI system looks like a LED and is apparently not susceptable to water/
dust damage. Is someone BS itting me or is this correct? the 3.9
Airflow replacement cost is around R 2 500-00. with a malfunctioning
airflow the ECU apparently reverts to a fail safe setting with the
consequence that the consumption has dropped to around 5 k/l (which is
slightly worse than a Centurion tank).

I also caught part of the TV programme referred to and they were
referring to natural gas which (speaking under correction) is very
close to the chemical composition of LPG.

Recently I did quite a bit of research on the HHO generation subject
and it is sometimes difficult to seperate the genuine from the non-
genuine claims. one very interesting site is zerogas on YouTube. he
claims to get nothing from anyone in the form of compensation, does
not sell anything, shares all his knowledge freely with anyone and
seems to be driven by "getting back at the oil barons. he does not
claim to have the final answer but i like his way of reasoning. one
message that does come through loud and clear is that you will get no
improvement on a fuel injected vehicle unless you trick the injectors
into delivering less fuel than it is supposed to. With the
introduction of the HHO downstream of the airflow, the stoichometric
efficiency is thrown out and the benefits not realised. the idea is
in overriding the calibration of the airflow reading to deliver a
modified reading to the ECU.

I would like to build such a system but am hesitant to buy the
water2gas manuals as you do'nt know what you are getting. has anyone
invested in these books?
it is claimed that these books look at fuel saving techniques in
general and not only HHO.

Andre's results obtained seem amazing!

Imagine if you can get HHO to work in conjunction.

For those with Disco 2 V8 and Range Rover 4.6, apparently the Opel
Astra 2.0i coil packs are interchangable with that of the LR at half
the price.

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[Andre Oberholster]

Hi Albert,
Just 2 quick summaries: I spent a LOT of time and a LOT of effort before convincing myself about aftermarket EFI or MFI systems. Now, without exception, every single person I have spoken to that did a retrofit had smooth running problems. Jip, some guys DID get good fuel consumption on the open road, but the daily smooth running was a b*tch. Yes Megasuirt is a bit more expensive, but it is like comparing a 2008 Disco to a 1958 SII. My Disco is running exactly like it left the factory, just better.

Then my very own conviction: Every molecule of fuel needs 14.7 molecules of air for it to burn completely. One can vary this slighty more or less due to air masses pushed into the engine by atmospheric pressure, but any variance due to foreign X, Y, Z or H molecules or guava pips will affect the AFR and result in unknown entities.
There are a lot of very, very clever people with very 'dik brille' that are paid a lot of money to develop the best burning petrol. It would be naïve to believe that they have not investigated all the internet claims,,, - It Does not matter what they do, fuel still needs 14.7 molecules of air....

Point is simply this: get you Engine to burn efficiently and it will outweigh any wierd molecular concoction.
Over and Out!

Andre O.

[Glen Macquet]

As a newcomer this is my first little message on this forum guys. I
went to a RFA (Road Freight Association) conference a month or so ago
in Swaziland. We listened to a guy who took a bunch of his drivers and
told them he had added a special additive to their diesel tanks to
improve fuel economy. In reality he did absolutely zilch to their
tanks, and yet, to his amazement got 10-20% better economy from those
drivers in the ensuing month. All that obviously changed was their
driving habits. Makes you think, doesn't it, what with all these
amazing claims by people using various chemicals in their fuel?

As a point of interest, he told us that there are +- 400 loads of fuel
per day on the N3 Durban to JHB which equates to +- 16 million litres
a day. Of that, unbelievably, 800,000 litres a day disappear, as in
"Stolen" every day, costing the economy 250 Mill. rand a month. He
then went into a long explanation of how clever the crooks are that
are stealing the stuff. Very interesting.

Glen

[Pieter Venter]

Hi Glen

"He then went into a long explanation of how clever the crooks are that
are stealing the stuff."

Educate me ...I drive a thirsty V8 ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: lroc-te...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:lroc-te...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Glen Macquet
Sent: 24 July 2008 12:51 PM
To: LROC Techtorque Discussion Forum
Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Re: Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

[Prof Andre Vander Merwe]

800,000 litres a day disappear, as in "Stolen" every day, costing the
economy 250 Mill. rand a month

EVER SEEN A TAXI FILL UP WITH PETROL AT A SERVICE STATION??????

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Macquet" <gl...@lime.co.za>
To: "LROC Techtorque Discussion Forum" <lroc-te...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: [LROC Techtorque] Re: Acetone in fuel (Petrol and Diesel)

>

[JANSEN VAN RENSBURG, HANNES [AG/6917]]

Hi everyone
I've found a good 2.5 Defender soft top this past weekend. For a 21 year
old vehicle with only 157 000km on the clock, it is in a very good
running condition.

Question 1: Can I run it on unleaded fuel or should I use lead
replacement fuel?

Question 2: Do you get a recon kit for the steering box? Where can I get
a kit?

Regards

Hannes J. van Rensburg
MONSANTO SA.
Selnr: 083 230 8191
Faks: 018-632 1612

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