Smoke detectors

[Sander Van de Wiel]

I have several Gira Dual Q smoke detectors with the relay module. My idea was to trigger all smoke detectors when 1 detector is triggered. I would do this by putting all relay modules to digital inputs and all "external triggers" on an output and then use the Fire Alarm block.

However, I'm assuming this will lead to the following situation:

1) Smoke detector 1 triggers the alarm

2) the alarm block triggers all other smoke detectors.

3) I disable smoke detector 1

4) the alarm block still sees all other smoke detectors on, and triggers smoke detector 1.

This way it will be impossible to disable the alarm.

Any ideas?

[smartbusinesstools.be]

Normally, for that type of detectors, all must be interconnected, wired or wireless, and all sound whenever one is triggered. Just one should have a relay module to notify an external system. This way however the external system would not know which detector was triggered.
How do you trigger the detector from in Loxone? and does that activate the relay?

[Santeri / Finlandia Automation Ltd.]

Or do you have relay modules on all detectors? In that case you must disable all smoke detectors, not only detector 1. Also I believe the you must adjust the pulse length of the disabling pulse to a few sec.

[Sander Van de Wiel]

Still have to do the cabling. Each smoke detector has a relay so I will put all of them as an input on Loxone. There is also the cabling to connect all of them. It seems I won't be able to us this to do all the management, but I should be able to trigger all alarms by just putting adding an output to the cabling of the "network". It can then switch the (presumably) 9V and trigger an alarm. When I get some time, I'll do some experimenting and see what I can get to work!

Op donderdag 17 maart 2016 07:54:57 UTC+1 schreef Santeri / Finlandia Automation Ltd.:

[Rob_in]

On Wednesday, 16 March 2016 14:46:06 UTC+1, Sander Van de Wiel wrote:

I have several Gira Dual Q smoke detectors with the relay module.

Sorry if this is a little OT, but I began to look for smoke alarms today and found this.

Had a quick look at the Gira doco and seems that one can link multiple Gira Dual Q devices together with 2 core cable. This then means if one of them detects heat/smoke, they are all triggered. Sounds like a good idea for maximum alarm volume!

Doesn't this mean if you also want Loxone to be triggered:

1. You can somehow have Loxone detect whatever signal is being propagated on this wire between the devices?

... or...

2. You could use the Gira relay module. But it appears you only really need one of those to connect one of the Dual Q detectors to Loxone because if wired together, all the devices are all triggered in parallel.

I don't suppose you had a look at what voltage the standard wire between devices does (is 1. feasible), or can confirm if wired together you only need 1 relay module (method 2.)?

Thanks :)

Robin

[Simon Still]

On Sunday, 26 March 2017 09:16:49 UTC+1, Rob_in wrote:

one can link multiple Gira Dual Q devices together with 2 core cable. This then means if one of them detects heat/smoke, they are all triggered. Sounds like a good idea for maximum alarm volume!

I'm not sure which country you're in.  UK building regulations (ie for new properties) require mains powered smoke alarms with battery back up and for alarms to be interconnected so that all sound on detection of smoke. 

With the Gira alarms I'd say that, yes, you would only need 1 relay module.  

I looked at the Gira alarms but to run them off the mains you need to add the separate base by which time they become large and expensive. 

If you're rewiring the house have a look at something like this - 

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Fire_and_Smoke/Fire_Detection_Systems/Fire_Detection_ESP/index.html

You can then use small, discreet (and cheap) sensors in the rooms with a central control panel.  It means you have as single (large) battery back up and the panel has contacts for 'alarm detected' and 'ring alarm' that you can simply interface to Loxone. 

[DavidL]

I use the Aico range of products. They need 3core & earth though. Live/Neutral for power, then a core for the link.

I've got one of their relay bases near my Loxone panel, which switches a 24Vdc signal to a digital input. It doesn't say which smoke sensor triggered the alarm, but it gets the basics in to Loxone.

I do have an additional relay base that I planned to stick a CO2 sensor on in the loft. The boilers up there, so I thought that might be a sensible alarm to stick in.

David

On Sunday, 26 March 2017 09:16:49 UTC+1, Rob_in wrote:

[seb303]

Bear in mind that the link signal from the Aico smoke detectors (and possibly other types) is relative to mains neutral.  So you need to use some kind of isolation as it's not a good idea to connect mains neutral to Loxono 0V.  An opto-isolator works for example.

Seb

[Rob_in]

On Monday, 27 March 2017 11:01:02 UTC+2, Simon Still wrote:

I'm not sure which country you're in.  UK building regulations (ie for new properties) require mains powered smoke alarms with battery back up and for alarms to be interconnected so that all sound on detection of smoke. 

Our project is in France, and in the interests of helping anyone else out who comes looking for this information, according to this government site...

http://www.logement.gouv.fr/detecteurdefumee

... detectors in France are obligatory and must conform to EN 14604 & bear the CE mark. Luckily the Gira Dual Q fulfils both these requirements.

It doesn't appear detectors here have to be mains connected.

I have to admit, at first I didn't like the idea of a device that has a 10 year battery which cannot be replaced. Means the device has a 10 year lifespan then the whole thing has to be replaced. Then I thought more about this: it's a critical piece of safety equipment which relies on small particle detection to properly function. Maybe after 10 years it's a good idea to replace such a device anyhow, because surely it would become contaminated with dust and other particulates over that time. At least that's how I will convince myself the 4EUR/year expense is worthwhile ;)

Cheers,

Robin

[DavidL]

Hello Seb.

The Aico detector link doesn't go in to Loxone. That would be foolish as you rightly indicate.

The relay base has volt free contacts, which means you can stick the same 24Vdc thats feeding your Loxone equipment through the relay as the signal.

Technical details for the Aico relay module are here: https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei128r-hard-wired-relay-module/

David

[seb303]

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 11:04:26 AM UTC+1, DavidL wrote:

The Aico detector link doesn't go in to Loxone. That would be foolish as you rightly indicate.

The relay base has volt free contacts, which means you can stick the same 24Vdc thats feeding your Loxone equipment through the relay as the signal.

Technical details for the Aico relay module are here: https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei128r-hard-wired-relay-module/

Sorry, didn't see that detail.  That looks like a good solution.  It can also be done with an opto-isolator IC which the link signal can drive (the link signal won't drive a relay directly).