Connecting Smoke Alarms to Loxone

[Rob]

I have a couple of mains powered AICO smoke alarms in my home which are interlinked so they trigger each other when smoke is detected and I intend to connect then to my Loxone system (when installed) so that I can use it to trigger other actions. I have looked at the wiring diagrams and it's not obvious how you'd take a trigger output from them.

Has anyone done this with these types of detectors?

Rob

[JohnLB]

Hi Rob,

I was under the impression you need the relay module (https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei128rbu-hard-wired-relay-module-battery-back/), which you can set as an 24v output into Loxone 

John

[Rob]

Thanks John, that looks like exactly what's needed and has a set of volt free contacts which can be fed into the miniserver inputs.

Rob

[Peter]

Started looking at hard wired smoke detectors for the house and found this thread and another re the Aico series. To interface with Loxone a relay base is required but I’m not sure which one. One thread refers to the Ei128R and the other to the Ei128RBU. The only difference I can see is that the latter has a battery back up. As the detector itself already has a battery back up does the relay need one as well? I get that the detectors are wired together with 3 core plus E but the documentation isn’t clear as to what wiring is required to an external device such as Loxone. Any advice would be as ever much appreciated.

[Mcguiness]

Hi Peter 

I have the Aico devices connected to Loxone utilising the Ei128Rrelay base. This doesn't have the battery back up as I picked it up on the cheap.

Although the smoke head does have a battery, this will not drive the relay in the event of a fire and the mains feed being off to the smoke alarms (and consequently the relay base).

To connect to Loxone I have just run a 2 core cable from, 

C (common) on the Aico relay base to 24V on Loxone and  N/O (normally open) on the Aico to one of the digital inputs of Loxone. 

When the smoke alarm goes off it signals the digital input on Loxone which in turn can be programmed to do whatever you like. 

Mick 

[Peter]

Thanks Mick, much appreciated

[Peter Holden]

I have finally got round to installing my Eico smoke alarms, which are wired into a Ei128R relay. 

Following the advice from Mick above I have run a wire to a Miniserver Digital input and provided a 24v feed (not from the miniserver) to the NO contact on the relay base.

The Digital Input is configured to the FA input on the Music Overview Function Block

However, when testing the alarms, the Digital Input does not activate.

The relay has a yellow slide which can be set for a continuous or a momentary pulse, currently it's set at continuous. I have a suspicion it should be set to momentary?

Are there settings I need to add or change in the Digital Input? 

On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 7:12:16 PM UTC+1 Peter Holden wrote:

Thanks Mick, much appreciated

[Jonathan Dixon]

> provided a 24v feed (not from the miniserver)

Does the 24v power supply used for this share a common ground with the miniserver? If not, there's no way this will complete a circuit so the DI is not going to detect it.

I'd suggest cutting the relay out completely for debugging: if you connect this 24V supply directly to the DI does it trigger the DI to go high (e.g. in live view) as expected?

In the config, I'd suggest connecting the DI input to a "Fire and Water Alarm" block, and use that to drive the FA on the music overview

https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/fire-water-alarm/

The "Is" input on it takes a pulse and latches the alarm state, and then needs to use the App to cancel the alarm. The Fire alarm block can be linked to lighting and music controllers for visual and audible alarms, and notify the user remotely via the app etc.

I do believe I used the "momentary" setting on the relay, but I'd have to open it all up to check now. FWIW I actually use the "NC" rather than NO contact on the Ei128R relay, (and invert the input prior to connecting to the Fire block) as this is a little more fail safe: if the wires to the relay get damaged (e.g. by the fire!) then it will default to triggering the alarm

HTH

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Loxone English" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to loxone-englis...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/loxone-english/d72fa6ff-ae07-4929-901b-3047ceb1cab5n%40googlegroups.com.

[David Wallis]

If it’s a relay why complicate it and pull the 24v from anywhere other than the ms. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/loxone-english/CAN%3DipbZy3TQZe1adASgLhTG6NHtKCWn%2BUqLkwbE%3DgQdeARgFWQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Peter Holden]

Joth, David

Many thanks, very helpful. 

The 24v supply does not share a common ground as the relay is located in the loft along with a number of transformers for DMX controlled 24v lighting. One of which I have used for the 24v feed. David's comment seems to imply that this is fine but Joth, you're quite clear that it must share a common ground with the miniserver. Must admit I'm unclear as to the why there must be a common ground for the Digital Input to function. 

[Jonathan Dixon]

> David's comment seems to imply that this is fine [...]

No, I'm fairly sure David was saying the opposite: ditch the local PSU and just use the  24V  from the MS. I also agree that is the best approach, and the one I have used myself.

My point was  if you absolutely must use a different PSU, it will need to share a common ground with the MS as otherwise there is no circuit. To explain it another way, the DI cannot (reliably) sense a +24V "potential difference" without having visibility  of the ground that it is expected to measure that "difference" from.

(The ill advised hack  is to connect  both PSU commons to the domestic earth, but this could be dangerous and can be unreliable and you're creating headaches for whoever has to maintain it in future, so far better to put a dedicated shared ground between the PSUs.)

Either way, you should also check with the PSU manuals: some might not like having the 0V terminal tied down to another reference voltage like this.

In summary, I agree with David: using the MS 24V is unequivocally  better.

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/loxone-english/bc405cb1-d5cc-4f99-8bbc-bee5ae2c250dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Peter Holden]

Thanks Joth, got it and will do as you suggest. 

[David Wallis]

Joth is correct that’s not what I was saying. Try the whole thing with relay contacts is that they call them dry contacts, ie isolated rather than link the grounds which might cause other issues dependent on Psu and country (wiring specifics) keep the two things separate. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/loxone-english/3c846ebd-d7be-4a1c-a53e-55e9beded212n%40googlegroups.com.

[Peter Holden]

Thanks for the clarification David.

[Peter Holden]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread again!

24V supply to the Eico relay C connection now shares a common ground with the MS.

For the time being the digital input is connected to the NO. The Eico slide switch is set to Continuous (but doesn't make any difference if set to Pulse).

Measured voltage at the MS DI is 0v prior to test. 

When testing the smoke  detectors a 24v signal is received at the Digital input on the MS.

All of which seems to indicate the system is now wired correctly, however the DI is not activating. 

What am I missing?

[Jonathan Dixon]

Can't remember if I asked this already, but have you tested the DI in isolation? i.e. completely remove all connection to the Eico relay etc, just connect the DI directly to the MS +24V and see that it goes high in the Live view?

When you measure the voltage at the DI, what reference are you measuring against? i.e. this is against the MS 0V pin?

Beyond that I'm stumped and can only think of silly errors like accidentally connecting to the first terminal of the MS DI block (which is its own +24V. The first DI is the second terminal screw. This caught me out too many times!)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/loxone-english/e724f38a-6964-400b-a176-f9e6a6e85b9bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Peter Holden]

Jon

Thank you so much. I hadn't realised the first terminal wasn't actually DI1, now works perfectly. First time I've used a DI so if I'd ever known this was the case, I'd certainly forgotten.

Out of idle interest why does the DI block have it's own 24V (and a GND)?

[Jonathan Dixon]

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 12:46, Peter Holden <s69...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jon

Thank you so much. I hadn't realised the first terminal wasn't actually DI1, now works perfectly. First time I've used a DI so if I'd ever known this was the case, I'd certainly forgotten.

Haha yes so easy to forget, as there's absolutely no visual indication/mnemonic of this  on the MS

Glad you got it working now.

 

Out of idle interest why does the DI block have it's own 24V (and a GND)?

I think it's sort of a convenience? if you've got a sensor with an "open collector" transistor driving the DI then it will need a pull-up  resistor on the signal, and the local +24V could be useful for that.  Oddly they don't even suggest that in the schematic here so I'm not entirely sure. I didn't like the exposed nature of having resistors hanging off  the side of MS like that, so put the pull-up resistors into the sensors themselves, the one time I needed to do this.

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/loxone-english/b6ea9feb-1ac0-4e5a-8c22-3794f36a1e12n%40googlegroups.com.