New Garage

[Peter Holden]

Good morning all.

We'll shortly be building a new garage, including workshop and store.

I previously ran a single Cat6 cable from the enclosure to an IP67 junction box on an external wall which will be about 10m from the new garage; actually I wish I'd run more than one but too late now. 

I'd like to control / power the internal lights, external lights, potentially driveway lights, gate  and roller shutter doors via Loxone. 

I'm thinking a Relay extension, utilising the single exiting cat cable to provide the Loxone link and then wire in everything to the Extension. I've started discussions with the electricians, but I assume I can provide 240v power from a consumer unit to standard light switches which then trigger a relay to turn on the lights. The garage doors will probably be slightly more complex as we will want to use a remote rather than primarily via Loxone but would still want that functionality. 

I'd appreciate any thoughts as to the viability of the 'plan' and anything else we may not have considered. I realise we'll have to be careful with the loads of the bigger items.

Many thanks, Peter  

[Rob_in]

On Wednesday, 17 February 2021 at 10:37:48 UTC+1 s69...@gmail.com wrote:

I previously ran a single Cat6 cable...I'd like to control / power the internal lights, external lights, potentially driveway lights, gate  and roller shutter doors via Loxone. 

I'm thinking a Relay extension, utilising the single exiting cat cable to provide the Loxone link and then wire in everything to the Extension... but I assume I can provide 240v power from a consumer unit to standard light switches which then trigger a relay to turn on the lights.

I don't know what you're getting at here, but if your lights are going to be connected to Loxone relays then you need some way of telling Loxone to turn those on. A Relay extension has no inputs so that won't work.

Sounds like you need a regular 'Loxone Extension' which has 8 digital and 4 analogue inputs (so you can get 12 digital in if you want) plus 8 relay and 4 analogue outputs (so you can have 12 relay outputs using external coupling relays).

So 12 x in and 12 x out should be plenty for what you describe, but yes, using the regular extension, not the relay one.

 

The garage doors will probably be slightly more complex as we will want to use a remote rather than primarily via Loxone but would still want that functionality. 

Don't worry - not complex at all. Our motorised garage roller door has a remote with a single button open/stop/close/stop function. There is a trigger contact on the motor unit with the same function which I have connected to a relay controlled by Loxone. Hence Loxone or the remote can trigger open/stop/close/stop. There are 2 sensors on the door (magnet switches) - 1 for fully open and 1 for fully closed. These are connected to Loxone so it knows when the door is fully open or closed, or if the door has been moved (well, from fully open or fully closed) by the remote.

We have 4 buttons in the garage that are connected to Loxone so it can trigger lights (configured on short press) or the roller door movement (configured on long press). All this works well and you should be able to set it up easily enough.

Say you do the same, you will need (assuming you have a gate motor which works in the same manner as your garage roller door):

4 x input for switches (scope for more, but just for example).

2 x input for roller door position.

2 x input for gate position (same logic as garage door).

1 x relay output for roller door movement trigger (Loxone tells garage door to move).

1 x relay output for gate movement trigger (Loxone tells garage door to move).

1 x relay output for internal lights.

1 x relay output for external lights.

1 x relay output for driveway lights.

That still only uses half the inputs and outputs on a regular extension so you should be good. You could add more - magnet switch on any regular doorway to the garage for example (we have this that turns the lights on at night when someone enters the garage from the side door & is connected to an alarm).

BTW, using 1 pair of your cat6 for Loxone Link you can still get 100Mbps ethernet down that cable with 2 of the other pairs leaving room for Modbus, 1-wire, etc. on the last pair.

HTH,

Robin

[Shop]

Hi Peter,

We have just done something similar for a client.

In their case we fitted a Multi Air Extension in a separate enclosure adjacent to a new consumer unit in the Garage.

You will need an Air base extension in the installation if this does not yet exist.

We had a supply for the consumer unit and a selection of other cables for 24V & 12V

The Multi Extension Air offers you

8 16A relays (3.6kW with a max unit load of 48A or 11kw)

12 Digital inputs

4PWM outputs at 2.1A - we used these for External RGBW Led tape

You also get a 1wire interface for temperature

https://www.loxone.com/wp-content/uploads/datasheets/Datasheet_MultiExtensionAir.pdf

As an Air device you need no Loxone link Just 24v for the device which you could derive locally with a transformer.

If you have any larger loads you can always use coupled relays or contactors but most devices are less than the 16A limit.

Good luck

Martyn

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[Peter Holden]

Rob

Thank you for such a detailed reply. Regarding inputs, you're absolutely right of course, something I was musing about after posting, but good to have confirmation there was a fundamental flaw in my plan! Actually, I haven't used any inputs in our installation as all sensors and switches are Tree, easy to install, but hoping Loxone never go bust else the whole house will need re-wired at some point. 

Do you have an example / manufacturer of push switches? I must admit it's ages since I attended the training course and as a self-installer I haven't really improved my knowledge base unless the subject is something we're using in the house. 

I think you're also willing to supply Loxone stuff (since the shop has closed to us mere mortals)? What is the cost of an Extension now (inclusive of shipping)?

Martyn

Thank you too. The Air extension certainly adds considerable versatility and would as you suggest  meet the requirement. Our installation does have an Air Base, however, I'm uncertain as to whether the signal would reach from the garage to it's location. It's not a huge distance, probably 15m or so but if my experience of air devices is anything to go, adopting that option would be a risk. Battery powered door / window sensors have proven to be a massive disappointment, I'm seemingly forever changing batteries despite having 9 smart sockets to build Loxone's so called Mesh. The behaviour of the sensors makes no sense whatsoever to me, those on the same window can and do take different paths back to the Air Base, affecting signal strength which in turn increases battery usage. That's not to say your suggestion isn't a good one but I'm not sure how I could prove it would work without actually installing the extension. I hope I don't sound ungrateful, I really do appreciate you taking the trouble to reply. :)

[Peter Holden]

Ha, ironically the Loxone Extension as suggested by Rob is no longer available. Must have been too cost effective. So, unless I can source one elsewhere, it's either the Air Extension (risky) or a combination of DI / AI / AO extensions plus possibly a relay extension. 

What I need to switch:

Double Garage roller shutter door

Double Garage internal lights

Workshop roller shutter door

Workshop internal lights

Garden store internal lights

Building external lights

Driveway lights

Driveway gate 

1 x magnetic contact on garden store door.

As I can't access prices in the Loxone shop, I'm unsure as to what the best combo is going to be, especially as I have no experience of coupling relays either.

[Duncan]

if you can go wired rather than wireless that would probably be the correct starting point even if it costs a little more

for the items you are switching i would be cautious about using loxone relays as things like led lights and motors can cause relays to stick due to inrush currents

once you are using coupling relays or SSRs then you could look at other output devices to control them instead of the loxone extensions eg dmx/knx/network and possibly non-loxone devices if thats something you are willing to entertain

is your miniserver v1 or v2 ? if its v1 then using the knx bus for i/o devices in the garage might be cost effective

you could even use the rj45 cable to provide a local wifi access point in the garage and use network devices such as Shelly for both input and outputs

[Rob.no1]

I also used the air multi extension and found it to be very reliable and the most cost effective solution (the air extension is listed at £383.41 plus vat and import duty now). As you have a tree network you could always add the new tree to air extension in the garage, as well as the air extension, which would ensure you have good air reception.

[Peter Holden]

Hi Duncan, my MS is v1. Must admit hadn't given any thought to KNX as nothing else in the house uses that protocol. 

I already have three Grandstream Wifi hotspots in the house so I suspect I could add a fourth in the garage which would extend the network even further.

Will have to research Shelly, something I haven't heard of previously.

So many different options!

[Peter Holden]

Thanks Rob, Tree to Air is another option, which I hadn't considered. And of course I could then just use Tree switches although seems a bit overkill for a garage / workshop / store.

Starting to get complicated by choices now - lol

[Rob.no1]

Do you have a wireless loxone socket that you could try in the garage to test how good your loxone air signal is? that way you could determine if the multi air would be enough on its own?

[Peter Holden]

Rob, yes I do but as the garage isn't built yet I don't think that would be a true representation of signal strength as the signal would have to pass through another ( te to be built)wall. A bit chicken n egg.

[SavvySpaces.co.uk]

Hi Peter,

The Airbase and the Multi Extension Air both come with the same antenna which screws on to the top, there are however options for the whip antenna's and if required you could run this to outside the building, The unit I spoke of is operating over 8m, the Airbase has a external antenna and the Multi has its standard antenna which is within a metal CU.

The Multi Extension Air does not use batteries at all, and there is no need to use further Air devices if you choose not to, you could hard wire all your sensors and switches etc.

I cannot see an issue with 15m range Airbase to Multi Extension Air especially if you use an external antenna.

Thanks

Martyn

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[Rob_in]

On Friday, 19 February 2021 at 11:43:40 UTC+1 s69...@gmail.com wrote:

Do you have an example / manufacturer of push switches? I must admit it's ages since I attended the training course and as a self-installer I haven't really improved my knowledge base unless the subject is something we're using in the house. 

Well, I put Legrand Plexo momentary switches in our garage. They are big and waterproof so you can smack with the end of a shovel for example, when you have your hands full ;)

Schneider Mureva are nice too. Probably nicer TBH but I just used Legrand in as all our other stuff is from them.

Robin

[Rob_in]

On Friday, 19 February 2021 at 14:30:05 UTC+1 s69...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Duncan, my MS is v1. Must admit hadn't given any thought to KNX as nothing else in the house uses that protocol.

KNX...? https://www.weinzierl.de/index.php/en/all-knx/knx-devices-en/knx-io-570-en

Smidge over 300EUR (current Voltus price) for 48 I/O channels. You will need coupling relays for any mains loads thought (and your garage door triggers probably) but DIN rail relays are cheap as chips from China. Or buy their own, but they are more exy.

Alternatively you have mentioned IP gear. Sure, if you go that way there are many, many options to choose from.

IP output is generally easy, but for input you will want a device that can hit a specific URL, with basic user/password authentication in that URL when it senses a switch press. That way you can hit the dev/sps/io URL on your miniserver to trigger the appropriate action when the switch is pressed.

In fact, with a single Cat7 cable to our garage I used it for POE LAN and installed a Raspberry Pi with various relay modules (outputs) and optocouplers for the switch inputs. Get a screw terminal hat for a few bucks and make sure your other modules have screw terminals so it's all just plug and play (no soldering or anything). I run ioBroker on the RPi as it has very nice Loxone integration which makes setup easy.

Robin

 

 

[Duncan]

Shelly now do a couple of input devices such as the i3 which is tiny and has 3 x DC or 240v inputs for £8 which can push those virtual http inputs to loxone directly. 

eg https://proptimise.co.uk/Store/Home-Automation/Shelly-i3/File/Manual/50/20062?vid=10030

[Peter Holden]

Martyn

Very helpful thank you.

Robin & Duncan

I imagined just going down the Loxone route to control all the stuff, but you guys have certainly given me food for thought. I am still quite humpy that Loxone have chosen to cast self-installers like me aside (despite having attended the training course and spent thousands on their equipment). For that reason alone it would give me a small degree of satisfaction not to add to their bottom line by buying more of their products (childish I know).

The Raspberry PI option fascinates me; we already have a PI which gives us voice control - which despite what Loxone may think isn't 'gimmicky' at all, actually it's proving very useful - not everything can be automated. I also enjoy learning new stuff so both the PI and Shelly options appeal.

In sum, I'm not really sure which way to turn now, but I'm grateful for the suggestions. To be frank, without the contributions from all of the people who freely give of their time and knowledge in this group, I wouldn't have got this far with our home - so, thank you all.

[Rydens]

Hi Martyn, like you I attended the Loxone training and have done my own self install about 5 years ago. Overall very pleased with the install, and it works well - but like you am upset Loxone now cast us out.

I have added to Loxone and expanded with other areas. Home Automation (HASSIO https://www.home-assistant.io/) running on a Raspberry Pi  is excellent and I have it working hand in hand with Loxone via Virtual input and outputs. I use voice on both Alexa and Google to trigger things in Home Automation - which can then trigger things in Loxone. The benefit of Home Automation is it is free, community supported software, very reliable with great support. It also interfaces to most things you have, your TV you tumble dryer, your music system (Sonos), Shelly etc. The list of standard integrations is amazing, plus there are lots of community integrations you can add too. Do look at it. 

Also I can't praise Shelly https://shelly.cloud/ enough - as Duncan mentions. There kit is well priced and the software does more than you could want. All WiFi based so great for post install or where you don't have wires. You can use Shelly on its own for switches, dimmers, sensors  and relays, it integrates out of the box to Alexa and Google Home or integrate it to Home Automation and or Loxone. Where I have run out of dimmer ports on Loxone I have added a Shelly dimmer which is fully controlled from Loxone via a normal Lighting Controller block. 

A combination of these tools is a great platform. Do ask if you have and specific questions. Cheers David

[Peter Holden]

Morning David, thank you for the input. I've bought a few Shelly 1s and have wired a small rig (lamp holder / power supply / switch) to play with. For the cost £11 i'm impressed and will I think use this option in the garage. After all, I can get the same results for no more than £150 as opposed to the Loxone extension costs. It's time I branched out and stopped taking the easy route of adding Loxone stuff to Loxone. :)