Would you recommend Loxone for this brief?

[Eyal]

Hello,

 

I am about to start a refurbishment project of a 4 bedroom house which includes a complete re-wiring of the entire house.

 

The project will include an introduction of home automation system which needs to be able to handle the following elements:

• Security including access control, CCTV, alarm (including connecting to a monitoring service)

• Blinds, curtains and outside awning

• TV / AV in rooms

• Lights (creates moods, night light, security lights and much more)

• Heating – including radiators and underfloor

• Whole house ventilation

• Handle various sensors for temp, humidity, flooding, presence, smoke, co2, rain, glass break, leaks

• Irrigation (we are quite set on incorporating xxx)

• Appliances (monitor, switch on/off, standby)

• Outside pond and living room Aquarium (ph, temp)

• Digital showers

• Solar power system (monitor)

• Measure usage (eg. Gas, electricity, water)

• Notifications (eg. Email, sms)

• Telephony

 

 

It is extremely important for us to use wired solution wherever possible as opposed to wifi based. We really do not wish to start having boosters everywhere and want to minimise our exposure to wireless. We also think it is not as safe.

 

Lastly, we want a system that is supporting industry protocols so that we could incorporate in the final design or in the future components from third party manufacturers.

 

Having provided the above brief, which system would you recommend us using?

 

I noticed that at least Loxone and Control4 also recommend using their own wiring architecture. If we decide to wire the house with their methodology, does this mean we will not be able to change the controller in the future without changing the wiring?

 

Thanks,

Eyal

[Duncan]

i have no doubt that loxone could provide the core of your requirements, but would probably require some additional non-loxone kit or systems to support some of the functions eg av distribution, cctv, access control etc

i would be careful about loxones recommended wiring structure - there are some generic ideas about structured wiring that would work with loxone, control4, knx etc, but should you follow loxones exact wiring suggestions eg their 'tree' wiring then it may lead you down a route which ties you to a particular supplier.

think very hard about the function and use of your new house and how that use might change over time, consider alternative room layouts and try to design assuming someone else might come in and live there - that way you design in a flexible way and install hardwiring to suite.

do lots of reading about structured wiring and get your designer and installer (yourself?) to build your system in a way that would support many alternative automation infrastructures not just loxones.

i agree with the idea of trying to wire everything if possible, but you will make mistakes and then stuff like loxones air products can be extremely useful for the odd omission - eg the mirror demister you forgot or moving the christmas tree to a new location!

[yesimag]

I'm new to loxone myself, but I am using it on a 9,000 sq ft house right now and so far I really like it.  It can do just about everything you are asking, although I'm not sure about monitoring yet.  Do realize that loxone is rather new to the US, so your options for support can be somewhat limited.  Control4 definitely has a much larger US install base.  I don't personally have much experience with control4 but I know it is far more established here in the US.  What draws me to loxone is their open architecture, and extremely flexible configuration software.  I also think their hardware is rather attractive in terms of the touch switches and the intercom.  Is it the correct choice for you? I can't say.

In terms of wiring, you're best off running as much as you possibly can to a central location.  This means all your lighting loads, low voltage cabling, etc.  This will give you the most flexibility in the future.  Who knows if you'll stick with loxone 10 years from now, but if everything is "star" wired, you'll have the greatest options down the road without tearing into your walls.  I have an insane amount of cables coming back to my data center, many of which have no purpose yet.

[Simon Still]

Using Loxone with KNX seems to give more resilience and supplier options than Loxone alone.  However,  the install cost is significantly higher which is why I'm only using Loxone.

Think about looking at 'best of breed' solutions for each area and see if Loxone can interface with it if required. 

For example, my advice on Audio/Video is to keep it as separate as possible.  I'd be quite happy with the lights and alarm I installed in my last house >10 years ago but not with my AV kit (TV, Satellite box, Audio streaming tech have all moved on significantly).  Moreover, controlling everything through an iPad is much more hassle than picking up a remote and pressing a physical button.  Logitech Harmony works well.  

Think about what you actually want to achieve - Multi-room can sometimes be solved more simply, cheaply and elegantly with a set of extension speakers or an analogue 'audio out' cable to a second amp than a streaming system than needs the user to pick up phone, unlock phone, find and open app, select zone, select source.  My en-suite just has an inwall amp linked by cable to the bedside radio.  Pressing the physical power button gives me radio in the shower.....

[tzajaczk]

Using Loxone with KNX seems to give more resilience and supplier options than Loxone alone.  However,  the install cost is significantly higher which is why I'm only using Loxone.

Do you mind if I have another point of view on a cost side ?
Let's consider usage of a one 4 push buttons device with 4 led status indicators. (without TREE technology)

Loxone charge : 4 digital inputs, 4 digital outputs which means 1/3 of available extension inputs and 1/2 of available extension digital outputs.
The extension costs about 400 € so the "push button costs about 200 € + complex wire setup (5 wires for input end 5 wires for output FOR EVERY push button) + dry contact push buttons, support + frontal board

Let's try to take the simplest KNX push button like VIMAR 20840 : 85€ + frontal board (status leds are included)
Of course we need KNX power supply which can be realised for 80 € (for all installation) or even less ... ;-) , one pair wire for connecting all PB ...

The only thing we need with KNX is to program KNX button for ON when pushing and OFF when releasing the button ; the rest can be managed by a Loxone Miniserver (like long click , multi-click etc ...)

When multiplying push buttons the costs on the Loxone side are being seriously growing up because of extensions and wiring ...

My purpose is not to de-consider Loxone extensions which are very stable and high quality. For now, exception of the TREE technology they've introduced a couple of weeks ago, using KNX for input interfaces seams for me to be more effective and costless.
I'm waiting for some new TREE devices from Loxone to re-consider cost side.

For now, I'm programming through ETS some series of KNX PB which are easy to setup in Loxone Config so my customers appreciate the choice of PB design.

Hope it helps.




 

[Simon Still]

On Tuesday, 14 June 2016 10:06:06 UTC+1, tzajaczk wrote:

Using Loxone with KNX seems to give more resilience and supplier options than Loxone alone.  However,  the install cost is significantly higher which is why I'm only using Loxone.

Do you mind if I have another point of view on a cost side ?
Let's consider usage of a one 4 push buttons device with 4 led status indicators. (without TREE technology)

That's very true but it does depend on your 'control approach'.  Do you actually want or need a lot of buttons, LEDs and manual controls?  It is home *automation* which in my view means adding some intelligence so that they're not necessary.  

My rooms have only a single push button in each (or a number of single push buttons) which cycle through the available scenes.  My one set of motorised blinds open at 7am and close at dusk (or 730pm, whichever is earlier).  A long press or quad click on the light switch gives a manual override.  The heating system and ventilation systems are fully automated (so no in room controls).  

A single wall mounted iPad in the kitchen gives access to 'whole house' functions that can't be controlled by wall buttons (with our personal phones and tablets) and direct access to lighting scenes. 

The music systems all have a physical volume knob on them (and a physical remote control where it's useful).  In the living room the Logitech remote can control light scenes and the blinds

We've lived with it for 6 months now and its working well.  The one thing I'm still not sure about is the double click for 'all off' but no room has too many scenes so pressing a few times to scroll to all off isn't really any harder.  Certainly in our old house with no automation where there were 2 switches in a few rooms to control different circuits, and a triple switch in the hall, I was alway hitting the wrong one.  

[Thomas]

The 'control approach' ...

Many of my customers imagines that nowadays all can be controlled by a smartphone or a smart-pad, so ... why PB ? (the battery life-time ?)

Some wants to control everything with a single push-button... Some of them has some difficulties for managing  simple click, double click, tripple click, quad-click and long click :) so ...
I've introduced the "standard" : 4 PB by zone.
2 upper PB for scenarios per zone : click and long click for FULL, MEDIUM, COSY and ALL OFF scenarios and 2 PB lower for shutters or other devices.

The automatism considering shutters, for me, represents a bit of danger like closing them at the moment of dusk (as your example) when you are dining outside with your friends, so it closes the way back to your home :) because you forgot to disconnect the automatism and set it down to manual...

For me, as my advice to my customers, we have to consider the home automation as 'added value' to their house so anyone can use it easily. Changing the owner of the house or renting it should not impact any change in the electrical system as well as the programming.

That's why the bus system allows to change any PB to another if needed without ant change in the electrical system.
That's why KNX has 350 different industrials being able to replace any device by another in case of damage.
That's why a central managing system could be totally  stopped in case of damage of it's central unit.
(Of course I do not mention only LOXONE but CRESTRON, LUTRON, WAGO ... and others ...)
Of course LOXONE is a stable solution ... I'm just waiting for 25 years of LOXONE to verify the long-term period of life of their devices as I have this experience with some customers who are "running" with KNX for 25 years ...

Hope it helps.

 

[Duncan]

ive come to the conclusion that 2 up/down retractive rocker switches per room (up/down scenes, and up/down blinds) works for most rooms, and in the public / reception rooms i tend to use knx mdt glass switches with 4 buttons/icons to give a nicer finish with far less input requirements from loxone extensions. in some evening rooms such as cinema/tv, lounge etc , the second up/down operates heating boost modes instead of blinds because thats are more regular use function.

i intend to never need an app/phone/tablet for daily use, and like simon have a single wall mounted ipad for 'mission control' to set up or change the rarely used stuff.

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 15 June 2016 22:48:24 UTC+1, Duncan wrote:

ive come to the conclusion that 2 up/down retractive rocker switches per room (up/down scenes, and up/down blinds) works for most rooms, and in the public / reception rooms i tend to use knx mdt glass switches with 4 buttons/icons to give a nicer finish with far less input requirements from loxone extensions. in some evening rooms such as cinema/tv, lounge etc , the second up/down operates heating boost modes instead of blinds because thats are more regular use function.

Having lived with our single push buttons for 6 months now I think they might be the one annoying thing about the install.  They're OK but they're not as positive in action as simple plastic retractive switch (which we have in the workshop).  I'd probably opt for 'scene +' and 'off' on the lights retractive as well.