DALI vs DMX

[tkn]

A lot of the talk here is about DMX with the Doug Fleenor ELV being the recommended dimmer controller.

What about DALI? Is there a reason DMX is most often recommended?

[John Verdicchio]

I'm guessing cost. The Dali extension is expensive compared to the DMX extension.

[tkn]

DALI seems cheaper per channel as you get more of them.

• Loxone DMX extension $315 + Doug Fleenor ELV DMX controller 12 channels is $1575 = ~$1900
• Loxone DALI extension $630 + 12 DALI ballasts $60-100 each = $1350 - 1830

DALI is apparently easier to wire as well, so your install costs/time are less. And is "the future" I suppose.

Anyway, I'll be talking to my electrician next week and will bring it up.

[RSinn]

Dali can have delays with long cable runs like in an office where you see the lights turn on progressively down the bays. Dmx is used in theatres in real time.

Look on AliExpress at LTech (cheers Duncan) cheap and good build quality.

[Michael Smith]

Which DALI ballasts?

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20:23:43 UTC+1, tkn wrote:

DALI seems cheaper per channel as you get more of them.

• Loxone DMX extension $315 + Doug Fleenor ELV DMX controller 12 channels is $1575 = ~$1900
• Loxone DALI extension $630 + 12 DALI ballasts $60-100 each = $1350 - 1830

Not sure what sort of lighting you're planning to install but i'm not sure you're comparing like with like. 

It looks as if your DMX example is based on dimming mains voltage lamps but with the cost of the DMX controller you've listed surely you'd be better off just using Loxone Dimmer extensions - they're c£100 per channel so less the the Doug Fleenor and you don't even need the DMX.  

The same applies to the Dali ballasts you're listing.  For driving LEDs (either constant current or constant voltage) there are much cheaper, quality brand, drivers available - eg

https://lux365.com/osram-oti-dali-15.html

  

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:24:25 AM UTC-5, Simon Still wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20:23:43 UTC+1, tkn wrote:

• 
  Loxone DMX extension $315 + Doug Fleenor ELV DMX controller 12 channels is $1575 = ~$1900

It looks as if your DMX example is based on dimming mains voltage lamps but with the cost of the DMX controller you've listed surely you'd be better off just using Loxone Dimmer extensions - they're c£100 per channel so less the the Doug Fleenor and you don't even need the DMX.  

Not sure where the DFD ELV price is coming from. The MSRP of DMX12DIM-ELV is $1200. fullcompass.com has the rack mount version listed for $972. They can provide the JBOX version too. I got a quote last fall for the same price. That's $81/ch.

And to me DMX has an invaluable feature - its not proprietary to Loxone or any other company.

[Skarsol]

I'm curious how DALI is easier to wire. DMX is literally 3 wires (+, -, and ground) with a resistor at the end. It is identical to Loxone Link except with the ground/shield added.

[Duncan]

although im a fan of dmx generally, particularly its cost for low voltage / led when using non-loxone dimmers, for mains led dimming then the newer universal knx dimmers are cheaper - for example the theben 8 channel 200w/ch dimmer is around £50 per channel in europe.

[Andrew B]

I know very little about DALI -- just read the Wikipedia page to learn that it seems to be a command-oriented serial protocol with what appears to be a fairly limited number of device addresses and various electrical requirements that don't look too painful to satisfy.  After this admittedly quick review I have to say that what bothers me is that the devices all retain state and the protocol command modify that state.  The commands are sent sequentially.  This kind of approach can lead to severe problems if you run into situations where the controller and controllee get into a situation where they have different ideas of what the controllee's state is.  This happens with universal remote controls and AV system-wide power buttons -- if your protocol is based on "toggle power" then inevitably you end up with one device out of sync.  Also, the serial nature of the control bus means you can't be assured that changes will be truly simultaneous and transactional -- i.e. some commands might make it while others don't, and forget about having them all happen simultaneously.

DMX, on the other hand, at least for a single Universe of 512 channels, sends the desired state of all the channels at once and it should be able to do this at 40-44 Hz which is usually "fast enough" (Loxone's crappy DMX extension notwithstanding).  This is why it is used for soundstage productions and theatrics -- your state gets set all and once and it doesn't matter what state things were in before.

Does any of this matter in practice?  Sure you might never notice in a lot of setups.  On the other hand, in only two years of operating a mildly complex home automation system I've seen plenty of funky corner cases happen due to timing and this kind of protocol design (I have a linux host talking to my miniserver and it uses a similar design, but with self-correcting features to address this sort of issue).

Just my opinion based on knowing practically nothing about DALI.   :)

[John Verdicchio]

The NJD DPX12/4 is £18/channel with 4A per channel, 240V.

[Duncan]

and very robust and reliable, but its only leading edge dimming which makes a lot of led fittings flicker or buzzzz

[John Verdicchio]

I have different brands of dimmable LED and all seem to work fine with my NJD units. Could this be due to modern LED design?

[Duncan]

its very much down to the design of the dimming circuit - i was testing these units with gu10 mains dim mables about 3 years ago and noticed a lot of problems with noise and sometimes flicker and it seemed that the better bulbs in terms of CRI and light output tended to behave worse when dimmed

i suspect that more modern bulbs may have changed their circuits to be more suitable for retrofitting where older leading edge dimmers are fitted

[RSinn]

Which bulb brands John V?

[Cubanboy1971]

El miércoles, 28 de marzo de 2018, 5:06:19 (UTC+2), tkn escribió:
> A lot of the talk here is about DMX with the Doug Fleenor ELV being the recommended dimmer controller.
>
> What about DALI? Is there a reason DMX is most often recommended?

Hi, this is the first time i write on this forum, talking about dali protocol it is quite cheaper and here is my logical base, first only needs two wires for transmit the protocol data, no polarization on wires, there are drivers for 30 euros on the net, there are drivers with bypass funtion so image a hallway with 10 downlights with total comsumption of 120 w, so you need only 1 power suply with 120 or 150 w and only 1 DALI driver, so no delay when you turn on or off, total 0-100 dimmer funtionality, there are even dali drivers for on and off lights non dimmers, i am a lutron instaler and with dali systems i have no issues, and finally with Dali 2 protocol you can have conected sensor aswell, forgive my english cause im cuban and my knolege is quite small, and last recently introduce on Loxone world, thanks.

[Toby Mills]

I've gone for a 24V house and am driving all the lighting in the house via the DMX extension.

I bought a bunch of these 12ch constant current dmx dimmers which are extremely cheap and so far have been very reliable.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/350ma-constant-current-12-channel-dmx-512-dimmer-LED-DMX512-decoder-RJ45-XRL-3P/32414561933.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.47f145440a8a1y

You have one down light per channel so it allows amazing control of every light in the house.

I use one of these DC to DC transformers to bring the 24V I run the house on up to the right voltage for the leds (36V in my case):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-20A-1200W-Step-Up-Boost-Constant-Current-Module-Variable-Voltage-Power-Supply-IN-8-60V/32863360953.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.49355038cLTzxb

This means no ballasts or transformers required.

This works out at about US$3 per channel excluding the cost of the Loxone DMX extension and the cost of the light itself.

I've been using these LED down lights as they have something called sunset dimming where the modify the temperature of the light to become more yellow as you dim them down, they look absolutely fantastic.
https://www.switch-lighting.co.nz/product/d-lightz-tilt-led-downlight/

By running the whole house on 24V, you can power the miniserver and all the extensions plus everything in the house off two 12V deep cycle batteries. This means all the lights in the house keep going if  the power goes out, no inverters required.

It keeps the wiring and setup extremely simple.

I doubt you would be able to do a DALI setup as flexible as this for this kind of cost.