LOXONE stops providing 230V and 0-10V heating valvs !!!

[tzajaczk]

For your information (maybe you are already aware of that...)
I couldn't found anymore thoses valvs on LOXONE's site.

Without any message for end of support, thoses producs are no more present in the Loxone catalogue.

What about the support of existing projects ... extensions ...


I'm very disappointed. :(

[Duncan]

there are loads of choices for 24v 0-10v  and 240v actuators without buying them from loxone

1) loxone dont make them, they just rebrand other makes
2) alternative suppliers are a lot cheaper
3) you can mix and match other makes so it doesnt matter for supporting or extending existing projects

https://www.voltus.de/elektromaterial/haustechnik/heizungssteuerung/moehlenhoff/stellantriebe/24-v/moehlenhoff-apr42405-00n-stellantrieb-alpha-5-proportional-24-v.html

http://www.wundatrade.co.uk/controls/355-actuator-valve.html

[Alan]

Hi

I'm just playing with the idea of Loxone for my rennovation and i'm still trying to figure out some of the details! I was interested in this thread with the radiator valves and was wondering how this would work in practice, in terms of installation. If i choose a 24v valve maybe like the Honeywell version that offers normally open/closed. Would I wire 24v straight back to the miniserver/extension (as a star?) or use the 4wire system with a 24v circuit to all the radiators and then signal wires for each directly back to the server? CAn I use CAT7 for this based on the power? or would I be better using T&E? 

I was thinking if this can be done with CAT7 then i could start hiding network points behind the radiators. 

Sorry if its a sily questions, some of this loxone stuff gets a bit confusing ;)

Thanks

Alan  

[Peter]

Alan, I'm using two manifolds for our central heating radiators, one for upstair, one downstairs. The actuators will be fitted to the manifolds which means there is no need to run wires from every room to the Miniserver. The downside is that each rad has its own water supply as opposed to a ring main system. From my perspective this is not a drama. I had already purchased the (240v) actuators for the downstairs rads but will use the Loxone Tree actuators for upstairs. Much less wiring but more expensive. I'm using Cat6 cable to power 24v RGBW spots so you could use the same for 24v actuators.
Incidentally hardly anyone thinks Cat 7 is necessary for control systems. I'm using Cat5 (but Cat6 for media).

[Alan]

Thanks for the info Peter, thats intersting, using a manifold makes complete sense though i'm not sure my other half will agree with me trying to re-route the rads....but its something to consider before the new boiler goes in. 

Good to know about running 24V over the Cat6 directly too, i'm used to PoE for tech but it feels a little strange to be using it to run all this other 'stuff'.

Perhaps a mixture of TRV's and actuators might be an idea, actuators for the more heavily used rooms downstairs especially lounge and kitchen with log burners and hobs etc changing the conditions more easily (also the rooms that are going to be pulled about the most in my rennovation ;). 

....Soo much to consider with all this...

Thanks again

Alan

[Seb]

Peter, can you tell me what manifold you use? Do you have a link?

Thanks in advance!

[Martin]

Hi Peter,

We are building our new house and plan a rather complete Loxone installation. The question i cannot get answered is related to the heating manifold actuators. Since you run this in your set-up, you may very well have the answer readily available.

The first variant is: can I link e.g. 4 actuators (type 0-10V 24v) to one analogue output of the miniserver. Or will this affect functionality, e.g. valves not opening far enough.

In case option 1 fails: can I connect 4 230V actuators to one digital output on the miniserver.

I prefer the 24v 0-10v variants since the analogue outputs are otherwise unused, all available digital outputs are planned for. It may save me another extension.

The above seems so straight forward but I cannot get an answer, not even from my Loxone vendor..

No intentions to hijack the topic but the above comments are so close to my questions. I hope others benefit as well..

Best regards,

Martin

[Duncan]

a 0-10v ananlog output should be able to drive more than 1 0-10v actuator, however they will all act as a single zone

this usually happens with a larger room where there may be 2,3 or 4 pipe loops but all the actuators are linked to a single IRC

however, 0-10v actuators are much more expensive than 240v on/off types and are completely unnecessary for UFH

again yes you can connect as many 240v actuators you like to a single digital relay output - they use so little power that in practice there is no limit, but again the 4 actuators will act in unison, so its only useful for a single zone with more than 1 pipe loop

you can also use the 0-10v outputs to drive a relay or SSR to switch 240v actuators - just find a relay that has a coil current of less than 20ma which is the limit for 0-10v outputs - SSR (solid state relays) are ideal here - they are cheap, dont wear out and take almost no drive current

finally if you are short of outputs, consider using a dmx extension and dmx relays - it works out extremely cheap per relay and is easy to fit in the loxone model because no custom interfacing or programming is required. a typical low power 12 channel dmx relay will be around $35 and each channel will have a 2A rating - which could switch dozens of actuators per channel

[Neil]

Hi Martin / Duncan / Peter

I have recently been setting up a fairly extensive UFH heating control with gas boiler. I also had approx 16No analogue outputs that were unused so I have used 240v actuators on the manifolds and "will be using" the analogue outputs to drive on the following solid state relays.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151482311258?euid=63000637549b41fa97d91ba7c87838bf&bu=44177047162&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu

This is a solution I picked up from a previous thread that Duncan posted so thanks to him for that. I have also bought a DMX decoder that Duncan referred to in this and a previous thread and I was looking at them for another application to open roof windows via 1 wire temp sensors and the IRC block. This DMX decoder is used in conjunction with the same type of relay board.

I say above "will be using" as I ordered these SSRs (4No cards with 8No Channels for a two house installation) on ebay in early October but they still haven't arrived despite the advice date of Oct 26th so if anyone knows how to get these more quickly I would be grateful as the property needs to be occupied in three weeks from now!!

The whole control has caused me some headscratching as I have used simple hardwiring and not any tree or air technology as I didn't went to get too locked into the cost and perscriptive closed technology. I have a three story house with a manifold on each floor with an associated UFH pump on each manifold. Also each story has it's own two port valve. Therefore the IRC configuration via the 1 wire room stats will need to simultaneously switch on the UFH zone actuator (we have one per room / zone),the two port valve, the boiler and a central pump!!  The microswitch on the end of the two port valve does some of the switching. I have found the flexibility provided by the digital output of the SSRs to be useful in controlling all this. I haven't done the config yet as I am waiting for a delivery of the relays but it should be relatively straightforward.
The hardwiring of the Loxone analogue output / SSRs / two port valve / pumps and boiler could be more difficult but I think I have it clear in my head what I need to do.

I can understand Loxone stopping selling 240 or 0-10v actuators as they are readily available on the market and I guess they want to focus on the tree and air technology but that should not be a problem if we wish to use a different approach as afforded by new, and not retrofit, installations.

Neil

[David]

Been following with interest - please keep us all informed. 

Just a note FYI - the link you gave is to relays that only switch 120v - fine if you are in the US, but your other text refers to 240v.

Cheers Daivd

[Neil]

Hmmm, good spotting David!!  I had originally looked at these for switching 24v Fakro window opening motors which would have been fine, I will probably still use them for that. I had overlooked that they are only rated up to 120V. Damn!! 

 I have just checked these out
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIN-Rail-Mount-Fused-8-DPDT-5A-Power-Relay-Interface-Module-G2R-2-5V-DC-Relay-/371773114672?hash=item568f67893
But the relay closing coil current (these are not SSR) is 107ma.

The Loxone literature for the extension states the analogue output current is
4x analogue outputs 0 - 10VDC
Maximum 20mA output load
So the extension analogues output will not drive these relays on.  I don't want to go down the 24v actuator route but may have to consider.I opted for the 240v actuator as these were already supplied by my UFH installer!! We have 16No rooms / zones and two houses so it could be a costly swop out.

The other option is to use a DMX decoder whose channels then drive the SSRs on and Duncan has flagged this up in previous posts and I see other guys have done it when they are struggling for outputs. They say it's very reliable so could be an option. I had opted for the using the analogue outputs in this instance as they are unused but it's back to the drawing board unless anyone has better suggestions.

I'll report back when I have another solution!!

Neil

[Neil]

 PS  Just read Duncan's post above again and he says ....."you can also use the 0-10v outputs to drive a relay or SSR to switch 240v actuators".  Duncan - can you advise if you have used a SSR with 240V rated contacts. I'm looking for DPDT as I have a number of circuits to switch but I suppose I could double up with SPST if I am desperate.

Neil

[Duncan]

the relay board has too higher switching current  to drive from 0-10v outputs, but they do an ssr module:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eight-Channel-SSR-Solid-State-Relay-Module-Board-AC100-240V-2A-/201700112588?hash=item2ef64378cc
this one has 8 mains voltage switching SSRs with upto 2A per channel and is driven at 5v 20ma so would be suitable

alternatively, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10DA-Din-rail-SSR-quintuplicate-five-5-input-3-32VDC-output-24-380VAC-single-phase-DC/1581576845.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000013.1.Yttdp5&scm=1007.13339.33317.0&pvid=da94d0d6-a0ae-49db-8ff8-8b69d2d8712e&tpp=1 is a din-rail mount 5 channel ssr for switching mains upto 10A from 3-32v dc at 4ma so would be far easier to use with the full 10v output of an analog

ive used the 10DA to drive devices from loxone without any problems

ive never seen dpdt ssr relays - usually they are single channel but you would just use 2 channels driven by the same 0-10v output, which would work well with the 4ma 10DA devices

[Martin]

Thanks much, Duncan and Neil!!  

I will explore the SSR option a bit more. Seems like a perfect solution to switch not only 240v heating/cooling valves but also to switch other solutions such as switched wall sockets.

Regards,

Martin

[Neil]

Duncan

Big thanks for the advice here and I will order some of these 10DA SSRs. I have been following the forums for some time including the one managed by Loxone until they closed it in September 2015 and have always been impressed by the value you add to discussions with your experience and practical knowledge so thanks again.

I think I will post a separate thread in the next few days centered on the config and wiring schematic to achieve what I am doing with the UFH controls on my installation. My config skills are currently not great so I may need some help from some of the guys in putting it together. Hopefully the post and any subsequent thread should be of benefit to the forum users as this topic of using spare analogue outputs by turning them into a digital output is probably a common one. Also it is likely to be applied to heating controls.

Just for the record, I have two identical new house installations  with UFH and the following to control.

• Approx 16No rooms via their designated 240v actuator valves
• The house is three storey and each storey has it's own manifold with the actuator valves fitted at that point
• Each storey has a pump on the manifold - just a small 40watt standard central heating pump
• Each storey has a two port valve
• There is also what a I call a "central" pump - again a small 40 watt job
• The Domestic Hot Water (DHW) cylinder also has a solar connection but I don't need to do much with that as it has it's own Kingspan controller.

The system is conventional hardwiring and not Air or Tree

So, when any room stat (1 wire in a light switch) calls for heat via the IRC control block in Loxone the control config needs to do the following

• Open the associated room actuator valve on the manifold
• Open the two port valve for that storey / floor level of the house
• Turn on the manifold pump for that storey / floor level of the house
• Fire the gas boiler via the switched 240v live input
• Turn on the "central" pump

The DHW controls also need to be considered but this is fairly straightforward. That is, if the tank stat detects a drop below a preset temperature and the timer in the config is set for that period then we will need to

• Open a two port valve
• Turn on the central pump
• Fire the gas boiler

It's a lot of connected actions but one that can be done after some headwork with the config via Loxone and the analogue outputs in conjunction with the SSRs.

Neil

[Duncan]

Neil,
thanks - sounds like you have a good grasp of what you need for heating control

its not really that complicated to get the output controls sorted;

- each IRC output drives the appropriate actuator(s) for that zone

- each floor / manifold needs an OR fed with the outputs of all the IRCs for that manifold - this output will drive the manifold pump (via a delay to let the actuators open) and the 2 port valve - often these motorized valves have a switch that it activated when the valve is fully open, and this is used to drive the manifold pump, then you dont need a separate connection to the pump or the time delay - powering the valve open powers the pump once the valve is fully open

- the 3 manifold pump drives are ORed together to drive the boiler trigger (again via a delay to let the zone valves to open) - this OR will also be fed from the HW demand when the tank stat is triggered
the tank stat will also open the tanks own zone valve

and for boost functions and local overrides its easiest to use custom 'modes' that then override the default day settings within the IRC - any mode higher in the list will take control, so you can disable zones/rooms/floors by having a mode that is set to frost temperature, and make this active using timers/calendars/light switches/etc. the boost mode is set to say comfort temperature so whenever its active that IRC will be set to comfort temperature, same for the higher temperature and the disable/frost mode - simply activating one of those custom modes for that room a

i usually set one of the rooms buttons so that it triggers a change of mode in that room only, first boost to comfort temp, next press to the higher temp - i have a timer set so that it resets back to the scheduled temps by turning off the boost modes after a preset time eg 2 hrs boost for UFH - local feedback leds on the switches show that the room is boosted to comfort or higher temperature.

[smartbusinesstools.be]

Duncan

Just for the people who might not know: the Intelligent Temperature Controller can 'OR' and also calculate total heating demand with some additional variables from a set of IRCs, so you do not need the memory flags.

cheers

Filip 

[Duncan]

thanks - the memory flags are just for my layout convenience - the ITC delivers the same thing for sure, but i already had a framework laid out so havnt bothered to change older up and working projects!

[Neil]

Duncan
Thank you for your comprehensive reply and I think I now have a good grasp of the principle of what I want to achieve and what the config structure will look like.
It seems like I will be using the usual combination of the IRC with a few central blocks / memory flags to control the boiler, 2 port valves and pumps. Also as you have pointed out I can use the orange wire on 2 port valve (closed by microswitch on the end of it's travel) to switch on the manifold pumps.

Just one further question on the exchange between you and Filip and maybe one of you can advise. What is the difference between the IRC and the ITC. Are there pros and cons and could you for instance use an ITC to control a room??

Neil

[Duncan]

The ITC is like the central block in that it links the output of a selection of irc blocks without using memory flags, provides outside temperature compensation and a digital output to drive the manifold valve and pump.

its intended to be used along with multiple IRCs to drive the manifold/boiler and possibly a heat store/buffer which are quite common with UFH systems

Its a great block to use for a larger UFH install, but for some makes of manifold with a  0-10v actuator acting as a manifold temperature regulator and zone valve its easier to use separate blocksas in my illustration, because the separate temperature compensation curve has an option to set the actuator to close fully when there is no demand. It could be done withe ITC with some more logic im sure.

for your setup with manifold 2 port valves and presumably no manifold temperature compensation then a ITC block per manifold will keep your config file smaller and tidier.

[Neil]

Hi Duncan
Thank you for the advice and I understand the point you are making so I will probably use an ITC in my config. I will check with my plumber but I am pretty certain we don't have any type of temperature regulator on the manifold.
Neil

[Peter]

Apologies for the delay Seb. We've used Emmeti for the first manifold and will for the second.
I spoke to their Tech / Sales guy first, who gave outstanding service. You can't buy (or at least couldn't) directly from Emmeti but the guy told me exactly what I needed, there's a few extra bits you'll need, and all the part numbers. I think he also gave me the retail prices and suggested stockists. I popped along to a local plumber, negotiated a discount and collected the stuff the next day. Oh, I also bought Emmeti 240v actuators at the same time.

http://emmeti.co.uk/products/heating-manifolds-t3/

[Neil]

Hi Duncan (or anyone else that can answer this)

Just doing some config work on UFH and have set up the central page and memory flag for switching on the boiler which was quite straightforward. I now want to switch on a 2 port valve that feeds five zones on the ground floor of the house and I have a similar set up on two other levels of the house. I am wondering of which of the two following options should I select to switch it on bearing in mind I want to switch on an analogue output to 5v (I am using spare AOs) to drive on a SSR to put 240V onto the 2 port valve.

Do I use AQ2 of the IRC with a central page and memory flags. Alternatively could I take a second memory flag off AQ1??
or
The ITC and select the five zones to link with it??  I can't see an analogue ouput option on the ITC??

Just as some background (which may influence the option), as much as I have an external temp sensor I am not sure yet as to what extent I will use it as the newly built houses are to Passivhaus standard and super insulated and very airtight. They maintain an internal temperature well and are not so subject to external temperatures as houses with a lesser fabric performance.
Also I don't have temperature sensor mixing valves on the manifold

Thanks in advance for any comments and advice.

Neil

[Duncan]

Neil,
i wouldnt use aq2 - use either a second flag off aq1 and link them on a central page, or for ease of layout use an ITC block, then to drive your analog output to 5v, simply use a multiply with the '1' from the sum output of either solution multiplied by a constant of 5 and connect this to the analog output

temperature compensation is probably not necessary - as outside temperatures get colder the IRCs will adjust as necessary. it is more help with a poorly insulated house and sudden cold snaps, where the IRC doesnt have time to compensate and the heatup time would be much longer when its colder outside.

you can always add compensation later, but you would have to have some kind of 0-10v or pwm actuator added to your  manifold mixer in order to adjust the temperature - theres no point using it for changing the boiler water temperature, as the thermostatic mixer on the manifold would still regulate to the set manifold temperature and stop it working properly

[Neil]

Hi Duncan

Again thank you for your help and advice. To be honest I'm struggling somewhat to understand the ITC block method despite reading the config info in the Documentation on the Loxone site along with the youtube clip on the topic!!  But no probs as I am able configure it off the second flag on AQ1 so have done that.
Thanks
Neil

[Seb]

Thank you Peter, I think I have been on their site before, as I was looking at their manifolds and wanted to know if the Loxone actuators would fit.

There is a lot of great info on this post and it looks like there are many ways to do it! For my project we are doing room by room on an old victorian house as cant afford the whole thing at once. Just about to Replace all the rads with temp stelrads and bulldog TRVs, contemplating a load of AIR actuators as an interim step before installing two manifolds (ground/first floor) and then relocating all the actuators to the manifold with a 24v supply for power (remove the batteries). Will then link in the call for heat/hot water/pump into the Loxone with the temp sensors and hopefully it will work.... or I may change my mind and doing it differently!

Thank you all.

[Neil]

Hi Duncan
Further on our exchange on this topic it seems to me that to get my system to work in the clearest config structure that it may make sense to have a second memory flag linked to AQ1 (so a branch of three in total coming off this) with the two memory flags linked to separate central pages and respective outputs. Will the config work in the fashion?? I will link one central page to the 2 port valve itself (and manifold pump via the 2 port switch) and the other central page to fire the boiler and central pump. AQ1 itself will power the actuator valve respective to a room / zone. Hope all this makes sense.
Thanks in advance for any comments.
Neil

[Duncan]

you can probably do it with a single flag

each IRC is connected directly to the output for its manifold actuator on the room page

create a new page with a name such as 'heating output' lets say

use a flag for the output of each IRC, and place the other end of the flag onto 'heating output' page

group the flags together to an OR based on which manifold they are connected to, so if you have 3 manifolds then 3 ORs

the output of each OR goes to the 2 port valve output for that manifold, and the 2 port valve solendoid switch is wired to the manifold motor so the motor doesnt need to be in your config
you could connect your memory flags directly to the output for the zone valve, but the OR makes it easier later to see what you did

all 3 ORs connect directly to the output which switches on the boiler demand, which will then act as an OR (or you can add an OR here for clarity)

any demand from the HW cyclinder / timer / thermostat combination also needs to connect to the zone valve for the HW tank and also to the boiler demand along with the manifold demands

[Neil]

Hi Duncan
Big thanks once again, top man. This is just a quick response to say I have printed off and will take a long look over a cup of tea to digest. My config skills are currently on a steep upward curve so this will help improve it. I'm sure it will sink in quite quickly and I'll grasp it. Will be in touch to confirm all is understood.
Thanks again
Neil

On Monday, 12 September 2016 14:04:11 UTC+1, tzajaczk wrote:

For your information (maybe you are already aware of that...)
I couldn't found anymore thoses valvs on LOXONE's site.

Without any message for end of support, thoses producs are no more present in the Loxone catalogue.

What about the support of existing projects ... extensions ...


I'm very disappointed. :(

[Neil]

Hi Duncan
I've had a good browse now over the config examples you sent and feel confident I understand the structure. I will set it up in the next few days and let you know how I get on but still waiting for the delivery of my SSRs at the moment before I can actually run and test!!
Thanks
Neil

[Duncan]

Neil,

have you created controls for adding a boost/override to certain areas/rooms, or the whole house?
have you created a way to turn the heating from on 24hrs/dictated by the IRC timers to fully off, or intermediate modes such as heating in the bathrooms only? i ask because the inbuild heating period/cooling periods seem to be fixed into the config without being exposed to the end user in a changeable way, and its nice to have a manual method of overriding in our unpredictable weather

[Neil]

Hi Duncan

Apologies for slow response but just got waylaid this past 24 hours with rainwater harvesting problem on my new installation - looks like a plumbing / wrong pipe connection issue and not one of electrical control, right runaround!!
You have just beaten me to it on the consideration of a boost option. I wanted to get my basic control of the UFH up and running then think of the refinement of "boost". However my 2No new build project is to Passiahaus (super fabric / airtight) so it should be easy to keep the room temp to say 22 degrees regardless of outside temp. However would like to have a boost facility in some north facing rooms, I see you have done some posts with a KNX type switch face with some temp readout and I assume boost option. I had thought about something simpler whereby the room temp could be viewed on the app and boosted (via app or wall switch) if necessary. I assume there is an option for this within the IRC and the length of time on boost can be set??

I had also thought of a boost option on the domestic hot water and assume something is done on the 2 position controller or the timer schedule block?? I see this being essential on the DHW as I often use this option in my own house via a conventional time clock. In the new builds we have solar thermal installed which even in the winter is getting the middle of a 300 litre cylinder to 35 degrees so it may not take a long boost to get the top of tank to 55 / 60 degrees for a nice hot shower.

Thank you for raising the topic.

PS my SSRs came today via Aliexpress so looking to get these hooked up on Monday.

Neil

[seb303]

From experience of living in a Passivhaus, I would say that some kind of boost may still be useful.  Even if you keep the ambient temperature constant, rooms with large glazed areas will still 'feel' colder when it's cold outside, as the glazed surfaces emit less radiant heat.  This is true even with the best triple glazing.  Some kind of automatic boost tied to outside temperature might even be useful (configured for each individual room).

[Duncan]

the IRC doesnt have a specific boost function, but the easiest way is probably via a custom 'mode' for each room or zone :

decide which room or zone you would like to create a boost for - for examply my lounge has a boost, so does the tv room, but the whole of the open plan living space downstairs also has a boost option

for each zone, create a mode with a descriptive title - so for example ive create a 'boost tv to comfort' and a 'boost tv to higher' mode, and a 'boost downstairs to comfort'

add the modes to the IRC that you would like these to apply to, and enable the required IRC preset temp for the whole of 24 hr period - it will only be active when the mode is active so its not a problem

arrange the modes in the IRC in order of priority or override nearest the top within the IRC block, and then just create some controls via a button or app or whatever conditions you want to set the mode to 1 / active and it will set any IRCs containing that mode to the required temperature

ive set a light switch button to switch on the modes with a countdown, so 1 touch gives boost to comfort, 2nd touch boost to higher temp, 3rd touch boost off and back to the IRC normal schedule - by using the mdt knx glass buttons i use the red backlight of a couple of the buttons to indicate the heating being boosted, 1 for comfort and a second for the higher temperature

[Neil]

Hi Seb and Duncan

Seb - thanks and yes point taken, I have realised for some time that a boost would be useful for some rooms. In my instance it will be the ones on the ground floor on the north facing rooms. The ones on the south facing (which also have a lot of glass) seem like they are staying very warm even in the current cold climate.Interesting to see another Passivhaus builder using Loxone.

Duncan - thank you again for another comprehensive reply. I see you refer to the mdt knx switches which give the visual display that the boost is activated. I will struggle on this score as I'm not conversant with knx, I recall it can be done without knx but an output needs to be utilised to switch on the led indicator??  I will set up a boost option anyway for some of the rooms and decide later if I use an indicator for it or just rely on the app.

Thanks
Neil

[Duncan]

knx is easy with loxone, in that it gives you 'free' inputs and outputs, and suppliers such as Filip from smartbusinesstools will program them for you for free for loxone, however you are right that other conventional switches will require an input per switch, and a switched output per indictator - for example ADS switches have options for inbuilt feedback leds which would work just as well as knx
http://www.adselectronics.co.uk/plates.html

you need to work out your requirement for switches, feedback leds etc to see if knx will be better value or more functionality than using loxone inputs/outputs for switches and indicators
you can get to the point where adding a few feedback leds requires a whole new extension or two, so adding a few knx switches then becomes a cheaper and more useful option

it partly depends on you as an end user as well - i have a user with a huge house who uses the app for most functions, and only uses simple retractive switches in each room, where as another like myself who has knx switches with multiple buttons and feedback in the open public type rooms such as entrance, kitchen, lounge etc, but simple switches in utility, office, toilet, bedrooms etc, supplemented with movement sensors in toilets/bathrooms/panty/utility etc

[Neil]

Hi Duncan
Thank you for the advice and I will give some thought to the KNX switch option as it does have obvious benefits, I guess a balance of features / benefits (as you say, these can be viewed differently from one person to the other) balanced against cost.
Neil

[Neil]

Hi Duncan

I am hoping you may be able to help me with the SSRs suggested in your previous email. I received the same in post recently (5 channel 10DA version) and tried connecting them up today. However following a detailed look at the connections and input circuitry it appears that there is a common + and the five channels are switched via five separate -(negatives). I assume this is possibly due to how a SSR is switched on i.e. the negative (ground) is switched which as we know contradicts the conventional of standard type (non electronic) switching where live or + is switched.  It seems to me that this is not compatible with a Loxone analogue output as they have a common ground and the + side is switched. It means the relays operate the opposite to how the extension outputs the analogue signal.

I am assuming that due to the way a SSR switches I can't use the 5No channel SSRs for 5 separate non linked citcuits but a single channel could work. However something tells me I am seeing this wrong as you have used the 5 channel in conjunction with Loxone. I would be grateful for any advice you can offer.

Neil

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 16:44:13 UTC, Duncan wrote:

[Duncan]

you should be able to invert the outputs, so they are normally high but go low when active - these will then be compatible with the common anode SSR

[Neil]

Thank you Duncan, I will give it a try.

[Neil]

Hi Duncan
It doesn't seem like the IRC analogue output has an option for it to be inverted, could the same be achieved by introducing some logic like a "NOT" so that a high output is flipped to low and hence switching the SSR on??  This area is not one of my strengths so I trust I'm not talking nonsense!!
Neil

[Duncan]

you are using a digital output device so should be driving this from the IRC digital output, not the analog output.

i did it using multichannel dmx rgb drivers, where they also have a common +, so supplying the dmx driver and ssr with a common +24v, then setting the rgb outputs in loxone so a 1 = 100%, a logical 1 drives the dmx rgb output down to 0v with a 100% duty cycle and turns on the ssr - this gave me very cheap extra outputs without using any analog or relay outputs and can be distributed anywhere you care to put a dmx cable

assuming you are using the 10DA, there are a number of ways to do this: as above using a dmx rgb controller, or:

using a separate 5v or 10v psu for the ssr common +, invert the output of the IRC Q and multiply by the required number et 5 or 10 to drive the the SSR trigger to 0v

the SSRs have a very low drive current (4ma per channel) , so if you arent using many you could use a zener diode/resistor to drop to 10v from your +24v without using a separate power supply
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_7.html illustrated how to do this

i used a 12ch rgb decoder: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-DMX512-decode-controller-for-led-light-fixtures-DC12-24V-DC5V-controller-popular-at-Russia/2036768549.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.47.aMsFlL&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10065_10068_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10060_10061_10062_10056_10055_10037_10054_10033_10059_10032_10099_10078_10079_10077_426_10103_10073_10102_10096_10052_10050_425_10051,searchweb201603_1&btsid=8372242e-f2d0-4fad-bafa-8a5abb911df7

and 2 10DA SSRs for 10 actuators plus 2 single channel SSRs https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-solid-state-relay-SSR-25DA-25A-3-32V-DC-TO-24-380V-AC-SSR/32663806352.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.19.JkJSBc&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10065_10068_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10060_10061_10062_10056_10055_10037_10054_10059_10032_10099_10078_10079_10077_426_10103_10073_10102_10096_10052_10050_425_10051,searchweb201603_1&btsid=5a328af9-e835-43bf-be3b-34cbdbfc0217 to drive the circulating pump (s) for each manifold

although there was nothing wrong with the above, i went back to using a pair of 16ch dmx relays
http://www.srslight.com/DL/DTS16R-DIN_en_datasheet_M103.pdf
 to drive the actuators directly for simplicity, and in order to reduce the on/off frequency of the relays inside i connected my IRC analog output to a pulse width modulation block with a time period of 30 minutes for my ufh which has such a slow response time

if the relays within the srs dmx blocks fail i will go back to the dmx driver/ssr combination

[Neil]

Hi Duncan

Thank you for a detailed explanation.
After reading your post many times I think I finally get it!!  This is how I am seing it

1. The +ve of a separate 5v PSU is connected to the +ve common of the 10DA SSR
2. Your config set up will create a +5v on AQ1 when the IRC is saying the target temperature is satisfied and this is achieved by the NOT logic flipping a "zero" output on Q of the IRC when "nothing is happening". That is, "target temp achieved = an output of 5v on AQ1" This gives a nil potential across the SSR trigger terminals so it does not switch 240v (in my instance but it could be whatever one applies to load side of the SSR) onto the output of the SSR.
3. When the room temp falls below the target temperature your config will result on 0v being output on AQ1 again created by the logic of NOT. This gives a 5v potential across the SSR trigger terminals which in turn puts 240v on the output of the SSR which can typically switch on actuator valves and pumps.

I hope the above is the correct description of what is going on and it seems it need the introduction of the separate psu to create the potential difference across the SSR trigger terminals and I was not considering this methodology.

Regards
Neil

[Neil]

Sorry Duncan, just one more point, for my description to work does it require the ground of the separate 5v psu and the ground of Loxone analogue output to be commoned / connected together??
Neil

[Duncan]

Neil,

yes, your understanding is correct, and yes the 0v of the 5v should be linked to the 0v of the loxone 24v supply

i said to use 5v because apple type charger 5v/usb plugs are reliable, small and cheap and can delivery 1A or more at 5v, which is more than adequate.

if you have room in your cabinet for a din rail psu then a small 15w meanwell 5v or similar will be easier
http://ledlightingsave.com/index.php/dr-15-15w-mean-well-single-output-industrial-din-rail-power-supply.html

[Neil]

Hi Duncan

Huge thanks for your patience in talking me through this, we got there in the end. The whole thing seems a fairly neat solution for utilising unused AOs as digital outputs and ideal for a UFH application. I recently bought some 5v PSUs on ebay and intended using them to switch on 5v DPDT relays for some opening and closing (24v motors) Fakro roof windows. I willl use them in the shorterm but the din rail versions in your link look really neat.

I also have some DMX LED controllers you referred to and I may use them in the Fakro window application to switch the DPDT relays.
Thanks again, Neil

PS if there is anyone who reads this now or later and is unsure of the set up I will take a photo of the hardwiring (extension /SSR / PSU) so that it may help them in the future. I struggled with the concept at first (you also have to grasp a clever bit of config) but it's quite simple when the penny finally drops!!

[DavidL]

Hello Duncan,

Just picking up on your mention of using the PWM block with the DMX actuators.

Would the Q output not be sufficient from the IRC as this is supposed to do pulse width modulation on that output?

Also, as a DMX actuator, would you not have to drive the output to 100% in order for the actuator to receive power from the SRS device?

I'm mostly curious, as I use the SRS dmx product for my UFH actuators, and have been using the Q output for some time, in to a multiplier block to get the relay to activate when passed a DMX value of 100%.

David

On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 13:08:31 UTC, Duncan wrote:

[Duncan]

regarding the IRC q output and pwm - i suggested that that the Q output (digital, pwm with 5 mins timebase) would need to be used with SSR or relay outputs, not the analog aq output

however, i then mentioned that in order to preserve relay lifespan if not using SSRs, the analog output aq can be connected to a pwm block, and the timebase set to a much longer period than 5 minutes, particularly if you are using UFH. most UFH pwm controllers use at timebase of between 20 and 30 minutes due to the inertia of these systems. This cuts down the number of switching cycles from 1 per 5 minutes ot 1 per 20-30 minutes. even radiator systems could use a 10-15 minute pwm timebase.

you dont need to use a multiplier block - on the dmx output you can configure the correction parameters so that a 0=0, and 1=100, that way any and all dmx devices will be switched on fully by a 1 on the irc output

[DavidL]

Thanks for the reply Duncan.

After my post, I did wonder if the correction values could be used to achieve the necessary options.

Thanks again.

David