Cat 7 - why?

[tkn]

So what is Loxone using Cat 7 for? Is it GG45 or Tera terminated?

[tkn]

Yeah... Although their price for Loxone Cat7 in the US doesn't seem too out of line with other Cat7 prices. And some part of me is just like, f' it, I'll just run Cat 7 everywhere since even if I end up moving off Loxone, then I have a robust cable for whatever.

So how should it be wired? I am not that versed in what best practices would be.

I wish there was a stronger English community of best practices and best solutions since right now there is a ton of stuff I want to do and I have no idea what will work. There is nothing autopilot about getting Loxone setup.

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:53:55 AM UTC-7, Duncan wrote:

heres my view
/rant on

they are trying to get you to use expensive cat7, when in most cases cat5 or shielded cat5e would be fine

why - because they are generally pushing installers to use only loxone supplied products, and they can sell you something expensive that you dont need, and because they recommend the wrong way to wire 1-wire (in a star configuration) so you need to use cat7 to get only 20 reliable devices working
They suggest using cat7 so that 2 pairs can be used for a 1-wire temperature sensor behind the light switch, and the remaining cores for the 24v retractive button switches, all wired back in a star configuration to your central loxone install.

cat7 (and cat6) is overly expensive, thick, stiff and heavy, and quite difficult to use/terminate behind the light switches so isnt ideal unless you actually need it

if you are NOT using 1-wire sensors in the switches, then cheap flexible unshielded cat5e would be more than adequate for wall switch locations.

if you are thinking about knx, then knx wire or something thicker such as cat6/7 at these locations might be better as the thicker wire fits into the knx connectors better - many people argue the you cant use rj45 cable for knx, but for most people it works fine, particularly if you are just adding some knx switches to a loxone install.

if you ARE using 1-wire in the light swiches, then a separate loop of shielded cat5e looping from the extension to each location is series is the reliable way to go, and use separate cat5 star wired back to your loxone locations for switch inputs

that way you should be able to get 500m of cable and 100+ devices working reliably with 1-wire.

i would recommend cat6/7 for the loxbus if you have a distributed setup (there can be some issues with long cable runs) and cat7 for all wired network points - we are hitting the point where 10gb over copper is almost affordable for ordinary mortals so cat7 offers a future upgrade path, certainly between switch/router locations even if not to each rj45 wall socket.

finally, i would suggest using shielded cat5/6/7 (cat5 is adequate, but you will probably have some cat7 left over from the loxbus and networking if you buy bulk reels) for dmx signal and make sure you use a twisted pair for the +/- data and a separate core and the screen for the earth - that way you can have huge distributed dmx instsall without any reliability issues

/rant off

[Rob_in]

TBH, the cost difference in using cat7 versus cat5 is so minimal, especially compared to everything else in the project, why would you not?

[tkn]

Loxone isn't charging too much for their Cat7. I might just use it for all my wiring. Just need to find GG45 terminations for network usage here in the US.

[Joakim Arfvidsson]

Having wired my whole remodel for Loxone automation, I don't think cat7 makes any particular sense. Its use of odd connectors for Ethernet pretty much dooms it in the consumer space, and the industry is largely passing on it for now.

I think what you want for high-quality Ethernet networks is Cat 6A – it does 10 Gbps ethernet. It exists in a shielded version, if you think shielding matters for your use case (it probably doesn't, but hey please splurge on the Ethernet cable). At monoprice, $180/1000 feet with shield, $170 without. Available in colors other than pea green:) https://www.monoprice.com/category/cables/cat6a-bulk-ethernet-cables

Now there is the other use case of these cables – non-ethernet. This might be RS485 to your blinds, Loxone Tree to your wall switches, motion sensors, control voltages for your dampers, and so on.

In this latter use case, the shield might matter in theory, but I doubt it will ever be noticeable. What does matter however, is the dimensions of the cable. In my control cabinet I have about 200 cables coming in. If they had all been Cat 6A it just wouldn't have fit, and the whole termination would have been way messier. Instead I used cat5e for all control cables, and cat6a only for the Ethernet cables. The difference in crosscut area is probably a factor of 2 – see my picture where the 4 red cables are the only cat6a.

cat5e is $60/1000 feet, so you can use it generously. It's slim, strips easy, and is way neater to install than shielded cat6a.

For my magnetic contact sensors (~50 doors/windows), my installer brought his own favorite: a simple 26/2 cable that is really easy to work with and very thin. So I wouldn't recommend a cat cable at all for this particular kind of control signal.

Also PSA: Do not assume you can run power over your cat cables without doing the math. 48V/500 mA is a good rule of thumb maximum for one conductor of cat5e.

[tkn]

I don't really know about the industry trends too much, but I thought that GG45 was backwards compatible with the 8P8C being used by CAT6A? I suppose Tera is kind of odd though.

Cat8 is still being worked out... I would love for it to be out since I am wiring for data anyway and I like the idea of a bit of overkill there - but not quite to fiber levels.

Anyway, sounds like I will just go with Cat 6A everywhere. I want to color code my wiring so more than just green will be nice.

[Joakim Arfvidsson]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 3:22:16 AM UTC+9, tkn wrote:

I don't really know about the industry trends too much, but I thought that GG45 was backwards compatible with the 8P8C being used by CAT6A? I suppose Tera is kind of odd though.

Cat8 is still being worked out... I would love for it to be out since I am wiring for data anyway and I like the idea of a bit of overkill there - but not quite to fiber levels.

Anyway, sounds like I will just go with Cat 6A everywhere. I want to color code my wiring so more than just green will be nice.

Yes, color coding is worth a lot:)

[Pol]

Hi Guys,
Im wondering how to wire my house, I would like to:
1) use star topology - to use in same rooms 24v switches e.g. garage... and to have opportunity to migrate to other system in case of loxones death.
2) use touch tree switches (because of reducing number of digital inputs, temp sensor and they are pretty)

Do I have to double wires and put cat5 in star topology and put cat7 to connect touch tree switches?
Can I use in futute tree topology to connect knx switches?

Please let me know what you think about those solutions and please give me same advice.

[Peter]

Most would say you don't need Cat 7 at all, certainly not not for switches, sensors. I've used Cat 5 throughout, except Cat 6 for video. Cat 7 is apparently difficult to manipulate in small back boxes and not easy to terminate.
Running two sets of cable for Star and Tree seems a bit over the top, it kind of defeats the purpose of Tree but I see where you're coming from. I guess you could use a Star topology and then terminate all the wiring back at the enclosure before connecting to the Tree extension.

[Kevp]

I have had problems in the past with retrofitting tree switches onto CAT 5 cabling causing some sort of interference on the touch switches, basically they just sat there and constantly acknowledged clicks without touching them.

I wouldn't use anything but Cat 7 for wiring to tree switches.