Should I Pre-Wire for Music?

[Rob]

We're having some major building work in the next few months and I am installing a Loxone system for lights/heating/security etc but I'm not having a music server.

I may never install a music server but I don't want to miss an obvious opportunity to do something just in case, especially if its going to be just a matter of running some fairly inexpensive cabling.

We'll have access to most ceiling voids around the house so I wanted to know if I should pre-wire for room speakers and, if so, what should I be using as cable etc.

Thanks

[Duncan]

i would strongly recommend running speaker wires from a central point to a point in each room where you might mount a ceiling speaker - the cost of the wire will be around £0.50 per m or less so hardly worth missing out on. Its never going to be hifi so something around 0.75mm2 will be fine.

take photos of each wire coiled in the ceiling so you can find them later on without having to make multiple holes in your ceilings.

If you have a room that may be tv/cinema, then wire in front L, R, central and rear LR wall speakers as well either back to the central point or to a place where you would locate an AV receiver or amp.

[sk]

I didn't wire for music when we mordernised. Whilst the cable is cheap depending on the quality of your electrician their time could be expensive. It also depends on whether you want the Loxone music solution which is quite pricey.

Considerations:

1. Acoustics - open spaces, speaker locations etc can be hard to place and therefore you may want to consider wiring everywhere.

2. Channels as Duncan has suggested for TVs etc.

3. Wattage of speakers.

4. What happens if you sell the house.  Loxone's solution I guess would be better for this as its all integrated.

5. Music subscription.

Alternatives:

I went with the Bose Wifi Speakers. - I can buy as I need for rooms and create groupings, multi room.  You can also hook up loxone to it via http outs. I have my doorbell set to play on all the speakers spotify, and a interface button to switch off the lights and speakers in one. The smallest versions of the speakers pair up to create stereo. (think i posted the how to on it integrate a while back). I don't think it support Apple's AirPlay/Apple Music but great for spotify, internet streaming radio (including BBC) and Amazon Music.

Sonos... similar sort of setup though not tried it myself.

[Simon Still]

On Thursday, 28 June 2018 17:00:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:

We're having some major building work in the next few months and I am installing a Loxone system for lights/heating/security etc but I'm not having a music server.

I'd say it depends on how important music is to you.  If most of your music listening is to the radio then no music server that requires you to get out a phone, unlock it, select an app, pick what you want to listen to etc etc is going to be as convenient as a radio on the counter where you press the on button and the station you always listen to plays.....  We had a Squeezebox server in the last house and about 5 players.  For radio use it was a faff.

This time I've put amp/tuners in each room for radio.   eg got a Yamaha DAB AV amp in the kitchen (wired to ceiling speakers) so i can press a button on the front and get 6mucic or Radio4 instantly.  It does Airplay and Spotify Connect so can play music to it directly from my phone (and since it's spotify connect it doesn't tie up my phone while it's playing).

Apple Airport/TV's give a 'wifi' music connection to other amps/devices and allow multiroom but it's very rare we have music on in more than one room at once unless it's the radio. 

[Duncan]

personally having previously had squeezeboxes, sonos boxes and powered amps/speakers in each room i decided i didnt want music boxes dotted around rooms with trailing wires etc, so wired to a central point. I like the uncluttered look and also didnt want to have to find a phone or app to change music

the loxone server and speakers are stupid money for what is essentially freeware - its logitech media server under the covers, so i used musicserver4lox, which is free and replicates some of the functionality of the music server and gives you simple controls via loxone such as play/pause, favourites, volume control etc, in my case using wall buttons rather than an app. I run mine on a dell reconditioned laptop that cost £240 and £40 for usb sound cards to create 8 stereo zones or upto 16 mono zones. There are plenty of remote apps for LMS if you want to use them as well.

we use the wall buttons or air remotes to select favourites (usually internet radio stations) and volume and ive linked them to the loxone alarm clock to play radio or music or whatever

a bit of browsing on ebay added to my collection of squeezebox duet remotes - these are a candybar remote with buttons, a selector wheel and colour lcd that drops into a charging cable and uses your wifi to control the squeezebox server.

i used focal ic106 and ic108 ceiling speaker which are far better than loxones own, but they are around £150 each in the uk but i got them for 87 euros each from son-video.com in france

[Rob]

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 5:40:05 PM UTC+1, Duncan wrote:

i would strongly recommend running speaker wires from a central point to a point in each room where you might mount a ceiling speaker - the cost of the wire will be around £0.50 per m or less so hardly worth missing out on. Its never going to be hifi so something around 0.75mm2 will be fine.

take photos of each wire coiled in the ceiling so you can find them later on without having to make multiple holes in your ceilings.

If you have a room that may be tv/cinema, then wire in front L, R, central and rear LR wall speakers as well either back to the central point or to a place where you would locate an AV receiver or amp.

My first thoughts were to run cables everywhere but I wasn’t sure I’d end up using them but it does seem a no brainer as I have access to the ceilings and floors.

You’re right Duncan, it’s not going to be hi-fi or anything fancy but just thought it would be nice to have the option to fit a system in future to have music available in every room controlled from an app and connected to Loxone for doorbell/alarm sounders etc. 

Useful tip about tv/cinema room. We have a room ideally suited and I was thinking along those lines with a screen/projector set up so definitely one to think more about. With that many speakers I’d have to go for wall mounted or maybe even freestanding as I wouldn’t want that many in the ceiling.

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 6:21:18 PM UTC+1, sk wrote:

I didn't wire for music when we mordernised. Whilst the cable is cheap depending on the quality of your electrician their time could be expensive. It also depends on whether you want the Loxone music solution which is quite pricey.

Considerations: 

1. Acoustics - open spaces, speaker locations etc can be hard to place and therefore you may want to consider wiring everywhere.

2. Channels as Duncan has suggested for TVs etc. 

3. Wattage of speakers.

4. What happens if you sell the house.  Loxone's solution I guess would be better for this as its all integrated. 

5. Music subscription.

Alternatives:

I went with the Bose Wifi Speakers. - I can buy as I need for rooms and create groupings, multi room.  You can also hook up loxone to it via http outs. I have my doorbell set to play on all the speakers spotify, and a interface button to switch off the lights and speakers in one. The smallest versions of the speakers pair up to create stereo. (think i posted the how to on it integrate a while back). I don't think it support Apple's AirPlay/Apple Music but great for spotify, internet streaming radio (including BBC) and Amazon Music.

Sonos... similar sort of setup though not tried it myself.

This intrigues me, never considered using wifi speakers. Are they entirely self powered or do they still require a power source (unless they use batteries). If I have to run power I might as well run speaker cabling.

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 7:30:18 PM UTC+1, Simon Still wrote:

I'd say it depends on how important music is to you.  If most of your music listening is to the radio then no music server that requires you to get out a phone, unlock it, select an app, pick what you want to listen to etc etc is going to be as convenient as a radio on the counter where you press the on button and the station you always listen to plays.....  We had a Squeezebox server in the last house and about 5 players.  For radio use it was a faff.

This time I've put amp/tuners in each room for radio.   eg got a Yamaha DAB AV amp in the kitchen (wired to ceiling speakers) so i can press a button on the front and get 6mucic or Radio4 instantly.  It does Airplay and Spotify Connect so can play music to it directly from my phone (and since it's spotify connect it doesn't tie up my phone while it's playing).

Apple Airport/TV's give a 'wifi' music connection to other amps/devices and allow multiroom but it's very rare we have music on in more than one room at once unless it's the radio. 

To be honest we're not music nuts with most music in our house being either spotify, radio or very occasionally our own music collections which are copied onto a server and just played out through iTunes. I don't mind a bit of fiddling with an app, even if it's just to get our usual radio station. Seems everytime i get in the car i have to fiddle with the hifi because the kids have reset it to some weird station.

I agree the Loxone music server is just silly money which is my main reason for only thinking about wiring just now. To be honest if Loxone had been selling the server/amp combo for less than £1,000 I'd have probably gone that route but now will take another look at maybe doing something like you have Duncan. I already have music on a server so should be able to adapt it and I really like the idea of using it as an alarm clock/radio controlled through Loxone.

[tkn]

I am wiring for speakers. You can do wireless, but then you are stuck with whatever proprietary solution without doing a full on change. And it gets expensive and cluttery.

The main thing to decide is whether to wire for mono (which Loxone uses) or use dual voice coil speakers for stereo (which most other whole house audio systems use).

I am wiring for mono, but going to use Sonos instead. I will buy summing cables to combine the stereo signal into mono and then feed them to a multichannel amp in the basement that then goes to each room. If I want to switch solutions, I just take out the Sonos stuff and put in whatever else in one location.

Cheaper options would be to use Chromecast Audios, build your own Loxone Music Server, etc....

[David]

Lot of good posts here. The price and lack of flexibility of Loxone's solution put me off. Also placing ceiling speakers is hard to get the acoustics right, and finding wires hidden afterwards even harder!

I have gone all Sonos - (including speakers in the kitchen ceiling and ensuite ceiling and sonos untis hidden), it operates over its own mesh network so no wires of WiFi conflict, good looking units that you can be positioned anywhere (and take with you if you move house), range of sizes including tv soundbar, and bass unit for people who like to feel the room move, connects to all known music services and radio plus local music that you have ripped, great phone app to control, can be grouped to create surround sound, great control to play and select music with Alexa (Google home coming) voice control (and can even buy Sonos speakers with Alexa built in so no extra units),  basic control possible from Loxone (eg volume up down, stop, resume, play this radio station etc.). I also have my doorbell mute all music playing, play a doorbell sound on all Sonos speakers and send a notification to Loxone, and then resume what was playing. 

I have set up and helped friends with Bose and Yamaha similar systems and can confirm Sonos is streets ahead of these two. 

My view is audio is well catered for and well advanced without wires.

However think about video for home cameras and TV distribution if you ever want these. They consume a lot more bandwidth and wires are still a lot better for video services!

Cheers David

On Thursday, 28 June 2018 17:00:04 UTC+1, Rob wrote:

[RSinn]

I'm would wire. Cost up Sonos wireless versus some decent in ceiling speakers. The cost was comparable but you will get a much better sound. Personally I think Sonos sounds ok but not great and looks a bit clunky. Like someone else said once the plasterboard goes up you are locked into that decision. Cables mean you can change.

Speakers:kef or monitor audio (richer sounds)

The question of cable always makes me smile. Do you need 'speaker cable' or can you use twin&earth? The electrons don't know it's fancy cable yet the whole industry is geared to flogging you better cable. The only physics based evidence I found was that the higher frequencies tend to pass along the surface of the cable. Therefore stranded cable having more surface area will give you a brighter sound whereas solid t&e may sound dull. But as long as it's 100% copper it shouldn't matter (to my ears) whether it's £1/m or £100/m.
The only other thing to consider is length of run. If you are getting some decent speakers and going quite far you may want a thicker cable. Don't go more than 4mm.

I wanted 4mm cable and found Mutec on Amazon/eBay was good value stranded speaker cable. The other benefit is that it's twisted pair so should help with interference.

Also check out Atmos amplifiers. I haven't decided if I'm going the whole-hog but I've put in the cable for the extra speakers as the run wasn't far. I can start with L,C,R LRear, RRear and then add the additional ones over time LAboveFront, RAboveFront, LAboveRear, RAboveRear.

[Simon Still]

On Friday, 29 June 2018 09:57:16 UTC+1, RSinn wrote:

The question of cable always makes me smile. Do you need 'speaker cable' or can you use twin&earth?

I've always used https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CASPEAK79.html  at 50p a metre it's only a little more expensive than T&E, easier to work with and no danger of confusing power and audio for anyone who finds a run of it in future. 

I'd not had ceiling speakers before and I'm impressed with them - I installed 5 channels in the kitchen (centre for the tv in there) and for audio normally run it on '5 channel stereo'.  Because you can put the speakers in good locations you get an even spread of sound across the room.   

Our living room is fairly small with the sofa against a wall so I used ceiling speakers for the surround channels mounted just out to either side of the listening position.  It gives a far better surround effect than I ever managed before - it's rarely possible to mount rear wall speakers exactly where you want them in anything but a purpose built cinema space. 

The massive success of Sonos always surprises me.  It's hellishly expensive  - £500 for a stereo pair of Play 3, £350 for an unamplified streamer (that really has little more function than a £35 Chromecast).  Personally, I don't even find the app to be that great - if you're playing music from spotify then the spotify app is better.  It sounds punchy, it's very easy to set up.  

[Shulox]

Never feel i have the knowledge to give back to this group so I'm grateful for the opportunity having done something similar recently. 

I would definitely run the cables now. I went over the top and cabled for atmos speakers as well. I don't think i will ever actually install these but if ceiling is open you can't over cable!  

I did not use loxone music server. I'm using sonos connect amps that then connect via an audio patch panel to all the different in-ceiling / in-wall speakers.  

In addition to the great advice here I'd add:

1) don't forget to run subwoofer cable to anywhere you might use as a cinema / party room. It's different cable to speaker wire. 

2) If you are running all speakers back to central place (like I have) useful to ensure you also have a way of sending video to projector area (HDMI or CAT 6/7) 

3) if you are running cables back to central place, in cinema room, useful to also have  a local option so you can connect a source in that room should you need to. e.g.  run cable from projector area to a wall plate for hdmi (or also for headphones) 

My basic thinking was same as yours and I'm glad I stuck to it. Put in cable now and worry about whether you spend loads of money on equipment later but at least you have the option. Only caveat is EXACT speaker location, i wish i'd given that more thought when cabling!   

Good luck.....

[James Wilkinson]

Against the advice of many tech friends, we cabled up multiple rooms for audio:

 - three pairs speakers in open-plan family/diving/chilling area

 - "5.1" setup in snug (little lounge)

 - two pairs in master bedroom

..they're all just speaker cable hanging out of the wall right now, but this gives us options.

If we never use them, then it only cost a few hours of work (while all walls and ceilings were open), but if we do use them, we have lots and lots of possibilities.

[Gregor Rebolj]

I also did the same - preinstalled speaker cables from central point to all speakers.

We did two things which are not really standard but might also be interesting for anyone doing multiroom audio.

1.) How to combine ambient music listening and cinema watching use case?

I use a Revox Voxnet system for multiroom ambient audio and local amplifiers for cinema. 

Most room only have the ambiental music with standard stereo speakers driven from the central Revox system (stereo cabling from Revox to speakers).

Living room, fitness and kids room are also used for a surround sound experience, driven by a local amplifier (e.g. Onkyo AV receiver).

The challenge was how to combine these two use cases in an intuitive way - for example you don’t want to manually switch between the two systems.

We solved it by running speaker cables from Revox and from Onkyo to relays which are triggered on an Onkyo trigger output.

If the Onkyo is OFF (which is mostly the case) then Revox stereo output is passed to the 4 ceiling speakers (normally used as Atmos height speakers) in the living room.

If Onkyo is ON the receiver takes over and all 11 channels are connected directly to each individual speaker - getting a proper surround experience when watching movies.

On top of that Revox preamp output is connected to one of Onkyo inputs which allows the user to also enjoy centrally distributed ambient music on all speakers.

I hope the explanation is clear enough. I can also draw a diagram if anyone wants it.

2.) How to share audio from local sources between rooms?

Rooms with active audio components can also connect local sources to the local amplifier. (e.g. kids connecting a laptop or a phone)

Optical audio and/or preout output cables are connecting local amplifiers back to the central Revox system.

This way someone could then broadcast a local source to the whole home.

To be honest these cables are not used much. I later installed Chromecasts for each room, connecting each with optical cable to Revox.

Each room amplifier is turned on automatically as soon as there is any music on the optical input.

Google Home in each room is set to the respective Chromecast making this a much more intuitive use than connecting phones or laptops to local source.

But I don’t regret putting extra cables in - they might be used in the future.

Gregor Rebolj, CEO and Founder, Voxior Inc.

Voxior - Voice control for KNX and Loxone Smart Homes

5 min setup without any additional hardware required - Start your free 7-day trial by logging into Voxior

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Loxone English" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to loxone-englis...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/loxone-english/4c45c8b7-5169-4436-944d-67c0bc70e4de%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Andrew B]

Wire is cheap while the walls are open, prohibitive later. Wireless still needs power plus introduces complexity.

[Rob]

Wow, lots of great advice to sift through. Always interesting to see how others come to different solutions for the same end result.

So, I think sensibly I will wire for speakers in each room, singles in all rooms except lounge which I'll wire for 4 ceiling speakers and a projector as it's likely to be the room used for tv/cinema.

Thinking about the music server bit, we don't have a huge music collection and mostly stream music through spotify so I'm wondering if there's a good way to do this perhaps without the hassle of setting up a full blown music server, although I know I will need an amplifier setup. Can I feed spotify into a cut down server from an iPad?

Just thoughts as I'm no audio expert...!!!

[Duncan]

just an additional comments to consider:

if you are wiring speakers for surround sound for only 4.1, 5.1 or 7.1, they should be in the wall at around ear height, rather than above in the ceiling. Atmos has many additional channels which are also placed in the ceiling.

[Rob]

Thanks Duncan

What just happened to the rest of your post......????

Can't remember what you said.

Something about laptop and USB sound cards I think....

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 5:00:04 PM UTC+1, Rob wrote:

[Duncan]

i was enthusing about the musicserver4lox which was off topic..

[J.C. Tibbaut]

which amplifier do you use? looking for a cheap and 3 stereo zone amp

[Duncan]

no obvious cheap solutions i dont think - you could use a collection of separate stereo amps but most of the the cheaper TDA ones need external power supplies, so it all gets a little messy.

but you could combine a single 24v power supply for 3 x stereo amps

something like:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Finished-Mini-HiFi-2-0-Digital-Amplifier-50W-50W-TPA3116-Audio-Power-Amplifier/273210264055?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49130%26meid%3D790451aa434543da94306557f7cfa586%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D272560757577%26itm%3D273210264055&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

the loxone amp is a dayton audio MA1240

i used the MA1260, which is 6 stereo or 12 mono zones, 60w per channel, around £660 in the uk but iimported it from europe to the uk for around £480

[Kops]

Very interesting reading in this thread, thanks all for that. It just uncovered the major weak spots of Loxone solutions for audio. Having most of the collections in digital form nowadays I do not see a reason for a central rack-mount amp and analog audio wiring all around the house (unless you are wiring public areas, hotels, shops etc). Moreover, structured LAN cabling, which I believe is a standard these days for every room, does perfectly the job for transferring data you need for audio/video. And also, most of the people have some kind of NAS with all the music stored anyway. So the question is (at least in my case) to choose the right end points, that could be controlled via Loxone. 

Such solution has the following advantages:

* Less sound degradation

* Wide range of different speaker setups

* Flexibility in the music sources for scenarios like:

** If you want to play some vinyl records (I still do) you can - Living room Amp/Receiver allows you doing that

** If your kids want to sound youtube videos from a speaker system, again it is locally possible using a smartphone connected via BT (A2DP) to the local player in their room.

Not perfect, but a trade-of between the user experience, costs, and music quality.

BTW, my current Yamaha receiver does not support any control over IP, even though it has LAN connector and can play streamed content, which is a shame. I contacted tech support twice, no luck, no doc, nothing. I have to use Loxone IR blaster to control its basic functions as if it was controlled via the original remote. On the other hand, my VU+ box does listen to http commands very nicely and it can be well integrated.

Any suggestions for HiFi devices that can be easily controlled over IP are welcome. For now I read about Denon AVR-X2000 integration here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/loxone-english/xS-pJUVT1zc or Pioneer http://www.vrdigitalworld.com/audio/controler-son-ampli-home-cinema-pioneer-par-requete-http?lang=en

Also, if there are devices that can play pre-recorded (mp3, flac, ...) on several events like doorbell, fire alarm, leakage alert, ... would be nice to get some hints.

Many thanks.

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 4 July 2018 12:14:06 UTC+1, Kops wrote:

Any suggestions for HiFi devices that can be easily controlled over IP are welcome. For now I read about Denon AVR-X2000 integration here  or Pioneer http://www.vrdigitalworld.com/audio/controler-son-ampli-home-cinema-pioneer-par-requete-http?lang=en

Yamaha have a range of Network recievers that are Apple Airplay, spotify and NAS drive compatible.  Mine is an RXV500D but there are others.  It's difficult to get the spec for IP control - i've got on and off working but nothing more  

[Simon Still]

On Monday, 2 July 2018 19:28:35 UTC+1, Rob wrote:

Can I feed spotify into a cut down server from an iPad?

I would look at 

- https://gramofon.com/#   

- Apple Airport/TV  

- Google Chromecast

And connect that (or those, if you want to be able to play different music in different rooms) to your amplifier(s).  

Any of them will appear as a device on your network and allow you to use your phone or ipad as a remote control (while they stream the music direct so you can use your phone etc for other things).  

I've been fiddling with multiroom audio since before digital music devices. It used to be that you could just loop the 'record out' from one amplifier to an input on another.  Note that anything you put into an ampifier digitally (whether from HDMI or an optical digital input) is NOT output on the record out terminals.  That caught me out 

[Rob]

Although not convinced I'll end up using it, I've ordered a chromecast so I can have a bit of a fiddle.

Having let the cat out of the bag to the rest of the family about wiring for speakers I'm now being hassled to actually install some kind of whole house system. I'm resisting so far but will look into it a bit more after the rest of the Loxone install is complete.

Anyway, back to wiring for speakers, where is the best or most suitable place to install a single speaker in a room. In most cases I don't really want it in the middle of the ceiling so wondered if near to, or farther away from the door is a reasonable compromise. Obviously a single speaker is never going to be hifi quality in terms of position.

[RSinn]

A lot of mine are going in the wall rather than ceiling so they are more at listening height. Otherwise you could put them next to a pendant light and the eye won't be drawn to them. I know what you mean though, with PIR, smoke detectors, spots and speakers the nice ceiling starts looking like the moon!