Dimmer Block behavior - documentation?

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Has anyone seen better documentation on dimmer blocks? I find the Loxone documentation useless. It parrots the terse and often confusing display in the user interface.

For example, plain old Dimmer. I created one and set step size to 15.

What does Tr input do? Toggles between 0% and 100%.

What does + input do? Toggles between 0% and 100%.

What does - input do? Toggles between 0% and 100%.

What the...!?

The EIB Dimmer is equally confusing. The difference between AQ and AQp output for example. One seems affected by P input and nothing else. Other affected by everything else. Same bizarre behavior of the various other inputs; first pulse on + gives 15% (step size set to 15) and subsequent pulses DO NOTHING. Sitting at 15% output on AQ and - pulse gives "-15%"!?

These are the most illogical behaving things I've ever seen. Maybe there is some logic behind the madness but without documentation who would know.

I have been using EIB Dimmers with AQp output and P input and doing all the adjusting of levels in other blocks feeding P. This can't possibly be the expected behavior.

[Duncan]

sort of, but not exactly

the tr input toggles between on and the previous output (which in your case was 100%)

the + input toggles between off and the previous output, but a long press brightens by the step value

the - input toggles between off the the previous output, but a long press dims by the step value

set SI to say 5, and then short press the + - it will go to 100%

now press and hold the -, it will dim by steps of 5% - stop at a value eg 50%

each press of tr will switch between 0 and 50%

a press of + will toggle between 0 and 50%,

if the output is off, a long press of + will brighten from 0 upwards

if the output is on (50%), a long press of + will brighten from the previous value 50%

same for - but will dim down rather than up

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Thanks for the info. Pardon the pun but its illuminating :)

This a great example of what is wrong with Loxone. First is that the most basic documentation is missing. For those that have attended training, is there documentation handed out that goes into much greater detail? Or is this a word-of-mouth or trial-and-error knowledge acquisition?

Secondly, the design revolves around assumptions of what control is attached. This sounds like a momentary rocker switch tied to + and -. Which quickly falls apart for any other kind of control situation.

I don't have physical switches connected directly. UDP Virtual Inputs generate pulses. I'd need to create logic to maintain state in Loxone to fully emulate a physical switch for connecting to the dimmer blocks. Which then goes right back to the lack of macros and the associated hassles.

All that doesn't really map to a common use case anyway so I'm left with repeated logic to generate an analogue level for P into a EIB Dimmer. Thus "dimmers" in Loxone are really mostly useless except for the UI bit associated with them.

My disappointment grows.

[Duncan]

the training is rubbish - they tell you less than the on-line docs do and there is no more written documentation.

you find stuff out by experimentation, trial/error and experience mostly, and the forums of course....

[ErlendVK]

@Jedi Tek'Unum & Duncan : I'm wondering the same thing.  I DID take the training, YEARS ago (probably one of the very first trainings they gave) and by now, since the software has changed so much and so much new stuff has been added, I sometimes feel completely lost again.  And I AM willing to take an update course, but since I'm not a partner (nor may I become one, even though I have a business, but it's consultancy and home automation is far from my core business so they are not interested) I'm not allowed to take another course. The first time I did not receive any documentation, though this may have changed in the last couple of years.

 

Their online documentation is lacking, to say the least.  More modern/recent hardware and/or good programming practices are not online.  (video) Tutorials don’t exists anymore and those that exist only talk about old stuff.  So nothing about Tree, no V2 controller, no central controller, hardly anything about Air, …  The only videos you’ll find now are commercials basically… sad…

 

To be honest I really hate the direction Loxone has headed in the last couple of years.  I chose them specifically since they were had a good vision, good prices, were user friendly and above all community oriented.  IMO the downfall began when they closed their own forums (and thus kicked the community to the curb).  This week I asked them a simple question (of which I knew the answer was going to be something like: “use this parameter instead for it to work”, so something REALLY stupid and simple but I could not find it myself - then) which they refused  to answer because this was a programming question and so they referred to a partner.  But I'm a DIY man and I cannot seriously contact a partner for such an stupid one minute thing?  And on the other hand: which partner would I contact? When searching on their website, it says 27 partners live in my area (but it does not provide me any names or contact details).  When I then fill in the form, I receive ONE name.  So now it seems I’m not even allowed to contact whom I want, THEY will tell me who I’m allowed to bother with my questions?  That does seem awfully controlling and not very customer friendly to me.

 

When I insisted and told them I asked these kinds of questions through Loxone support before in the past and this was never a problem then, they told me they don’t answer questions like that anymore.  They compared it to car brands which also don’t provide direct service ; for that you need to go to the dealerships (partners).  I answered “ok, but to use the same analogy: I also cannot buy a car straight from the manufacturer, I have to buy my car from a dealership as well”.  Which obviously is totally different from them: they DO sell the hardware on their own website but for the support they then refer to the partners (which will probably be very happy to help since they have no sold anything to me and thus did not make any money from it).  No, something is definitely off with regards to their company vision…

 

And I makes me really sad to see this, because this makes me feel trapped.  Loxone has become like all the other home automation companies which do some sort of vendor lock-in and as a customer you’re left in the cold.  Very, very bad evolution this.  And to think it all started so great, with great products at great prices, a good vision and very helpful towards the community.  That last part is completely gone now, sadly.

 

Sorry, I had to get this off of my chest... ;)

 

Op maandag 18 maart 2019 22:02:05 UTC+1 schreef Duncan:

[Duncan]

i couldnt agree more

i did the course and was promised a big discount on completion for an office/demo hardware and then had that denied, so i wasted a week of my time (didnt learn anything that i didnt already know) and they took the course money and gave me nothing in return. subsequently i had my partner status revoked (i run consultancy and design) because i dont shift enough boxes....

having said that, the one thing it gives which i would never get from lutron/control4 etc is the ability to extend and change hardare (mostly replacing with non-loxone now) and reprogram at will, without having to refer to an approved installer at £300 per hour callout

[Clegger]

I had EXACTLY this experience about 3.5 years ago. Walked up to the guy at the end of the session to buy the demo hardware and was denied because I wasn't a "professional installer". I pointed out that half of the people in the class were electricians who had never installed a single piece of Loxone hardware, and was told that they could have the discount because they planned to supply it in the future. 

Okay, fine, I'll just take the discount that was offered on website sales upon completion of the course. Nope, denied again. I made a complaint. They insisted I'd been told (I definitely hadn't), but that they'd update their process to make it "even clearer" that people attending the course as self-installers wouldn't get the discount.

A friend of mine attended a few months later and had EXACTLY the same experience, even down to them trying to gaslight him about having been told up front. Since I'd already warned him he took extra care to observe what he was told, and it was never mentioned.

I've been wary about recommending them ever since.

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

This all confirms my opinion that they are doomed in the USA. They haven't been here that long and they haven't attracted many partners. In fact, thats probably why they won't ever show a list of partners on their web site.

If they are targeting electricians then they are further limiting the potential. I'm sorry to those electricians reading but you simply don't have the expertise to deploy a high-end automation system. Same goes for the majority of "low voltage" contractors I've run across. I'd actually argue that Loxone is not even well designed for the type of partners they are aiming for. Crap documentation. Programming blocks that are illogical.

I wouldn't even contemplate becoming a partner. I'm sure Crestron, Savant, Control4, and all the others have their problems too but they've also got dealers that have been around a long time. Competition in my local market would mean the only possible way to survive with Loxone would be to win based on price. Not a desirable business model.

IMO, this model of dealers with a lock on a product and/or service is doomed. I'm a relatively old guy and even I won't pay a premium based on fabricated scarcity. I suspect the younger crowd is even less willing. Having just built a new house I saw some attempts made but when I was willing to walk away the tune changed. Used to be electricians only wanted to install light fixtures from their lighting supplier. Same for plumbers. Flooring. etc. For the most part I picked the product I wanted and not what the contractor wanted to sell me. In one case, HVAC, I picked the product (and therefore contractor) and the builder had to go along with it. Literally ALL the contractors were ok with it - I'm paying them to install the stuff, not make money for doing NOTHING. I understand why they liked the way things were but those days are over! Of course they wouldn't warrant the products but then again they never did (just passed warranty through to their product supplier).

The alarm industry thinks its still living in the 20th century and tries to force things their way - monitoring, etc. (Good luck finding an alarm company that will sell and install a system without monitoring!) I ended up having to install everything myself.

I couldn't afford to even consider an automation installer. Nor would I have been willing to install a system where I had to pay high hourly rates to change something.

In my mind people should be able to buy whatever products they want. If they don't have the skills or time to install and maintain then the contractor has their place. In the end I think contractors will have just as much business.

So Loxone has chosen to go back to the 20th century business model. Good luck with that. For those of us that bought into the previous business model I hope we don't have hardware failures!

Clearly there is a market opportunity for a better solution with a different business model.

[Rydens]

I am also a self installer who also went on the Loxone course. I like and use Loxone kit - but agree with the comments here - particularly the price . 

Benefit is it does just work, and if I wasn't around my wife could get professional support. 

Have just started using Home Assistant also (runs on a Raspberry Pi or similar). This is free software (Open source) and hardware is cheap. I started using it to interface with Somfy blinds - which Loxone can't do!

It has integration with almost everything out there - and I am only just scratching the surface. development is very active. 

It's logic is local control (all free) with the option for external control / Voice assistants via a secure (paid for $5 per month) external server.

I like there approach. There is a bit of a steep learning curve but they are working on that. 

Have a look at it.

Cheers David