Loxone Dimmer Extension

[Michael]

Hello,

Does anyone have experience with the dimmer extension?

I'm planning some outdoor light in my roof overhang, about 20 - 25 GU10 spots around the house.

I want it in different 4-5 zones and I want it to be dimmed to a low setting in the afternoon and evening, but when one of 4 - 5 PIR is activated, it should go to full strengt in that zone..

I'm going to be using mains driven LEDs (230V), and as said is considering the Loxone Dimmer Extension, but they don't state the number of parallel mains led, that are dimmable.

As an alternative, I'm considering using some analog out from the mini-server/extension and driving an 0-10V  mains dimmer, I have found this one, which seem to be nice, and is tested with 10 LED in parallel, price is bearable, but not cheap, sub 100 eur/piece, the Loxone Dimmer Extension is a bit more expensive, but gives 8 digital inputs, which I can use..

http://www.servodan.com/product/10-330-00701

And tests for different LEDs (it's in danish, but should be understandable)

http://www.servodan.dk/sites/default/files/brochure_-_330-0070x_-_positivliste_1.pdf

Alternative solutions is also appreciated.

Sincerely

Michael

[BartVB]

Not an answer, but why the focus on mains driven LEDs?

I haven't done a lot of research into this subject yet but based on what I've read so far mains driven LEDs are quite a bit less effective and harder to dim than 12V or 24V LEDs. Every single GU10 needs to convert 230V AC to a low voltage DC which is quite a feat with the limited space available in a GU10.

I'm planning on using 12V or 24V LED strips and spots connected to DMX drivers. This seems to be more efficient, more stable (especially if you want to use this outside), cheaper, easier to wire and more flexible (much easier to use RGB(W)).

Not really a solution for you although I guess that there are also DMX compatible mains dimmers.

[Duncan]

i think there is a lot of logic in using 240v dimmable leds in this situation
-they fit in standard downlight mounts that are available in many designs from many manufacturers with IP waterproof ratings
-they can easily be replaced with better lights as the led technology advances at a cheap cost
-the loxone dimmer can handle plenty - for mains dimmable leds they derate it by 50%, so 1st channel 200w, which is around 28 7w bulbs, and the other 3 channels 100w which is 14 7w bulbs, so plenty!

http://www.loxone.com/enen/service/documentation/extensions/dimmer.html

[Michael]

@Duncan

Thanks for your answer, I hadn't seen the derated part of the documentation, thanks! I guess it is given that I may use it in an parallel LEDs application, but Loxone didn't write anything, like the number of tested bulbs in parallel.

@BartVB

I looked into some low voltage LEDs and drivers, but I was a bit discouraged by the fact that LEDs that I investigated didn't seem very outdoor safe, and they where delivered with it's own LED driver that seemed funky. I couldn't find a good way to wire them either.

The way it is wired, is with two strands of 5x1.5mm2 wire going each way around the house, in the overhang, and the wire is cut at every lamp, and each lamp has terminals with connection for two 5x1.5mm2 cable. Each lamp only uses one line and a neutral Then I swap the active line when the lighting zone changes. So I can control 3 different groups of light on one strain of cable to my electrical enclosure. Each lamp has a piece of heat resistant cable and it is in a nice weather safe plastic box, with is approved for the use and the front face can be in painted aluminium. It's not chaep, but it seems to be a lot better quality than any bare LEDs I've found. Here is the one I probably will end up with:

http://www.daxtor.com/images/Easy_2-Fix_63mm_007115_wh-p.png

While I do agree that it seems a bit stupid to have electronic to drive each led at mains power, pr bulb they are not a lot more expensive, and distribution loss of the power is better at higher voltage.

I actually have a few Osram Lightify GU10, where the dimmer is in the GU10 also, but they are about 3x the cost pr bulb, so when I have many in parallel it gets more attractive to get a DIN dimmer. But I do think that the zigbee or some other wireless technology will win the dimming light market in the long run, as the manufacturer can design the dimmer and led in a package, and it makes RGBW easy. I have some HUE's also, and other Osram Lightify Luminares. Easy to wire, perfect control of each LED.

Sincerely

Michael

[smartbusinesstools.be]

I often want to dim to a very low setting but have never seen a dimmable 230V GU10 or E27 LED lamp that can do this. However if that is not a requirement, this is often the easiest solution. If not, you need a PWM dimmer or special systems like Hue or Lightify. 

FYI, both mains dimmers and PWM dimmers exist that can be controlled via KNX, so you do not need a DMX extension or analog outputs. They are about the same price.

Please let me know if you find a 230V lamp that can be dimmed very low like 5%.

Filip

[Michael]

Hi Filip,

Thanks for your input.

I haven't found any KNX dimmer that states they can control mains LED bulbs. Can you suggest one?

I don't have an KNX powersupply, so I will need that. I have looked at the ABB UK/S 32.2, it seems very attractive, small, many inputs, less expensive than a Loxone Extension, but with no experience and the cost of the powersupply I haven't investigated KNX further. But if I find a good dimmer, then I might branch into KNX..

I don't know how low any of the mains solution can go, I haven't given it much thought, but if it is not possible to dim to a very low setting, it might not be worth the cost of the dimmer.. I don't have access to any equiptment, so I have to buy it to test it :S

The Osram Lightify GU10 can be dimmed to a few percent, but I actually was a bit annoyed that they could not be dimmed further. I have 4 in an hall way, and want to low setting to make very little light to navigate at night. But with the Lightify I can let two go to the lowest setting and then let two be turned off, so it is more flexible

Sincerely

Mihcael

[smartbusinesstools.be]

We use this dimmer from MDT. This one is a 2-fold which is more expensive. There also is a 4-fold version which makes it cheaper than Loxone but without the extra inputs.

The results are pretty much the same as for the Loxone dimmer, on any type of lamps.

How do you control Lightify from Loxone? Via the HUE gateuway, or Lightify gateway or some other Zigbee gateway?

[Michael]

I'm still in the process of installing Loxone, so I haven't got control of the Lightify through the Loxone yet.

I might get a bit of topic, but right now I'm waiting on a electrician to bulb me a good DIN enclosure. He has suggested using an Schneider enclosure and then build the DIN rails in it, this model:

http://www.999schneider.com/media/downloadable/pdf/NSYS3D10825P.pdf

I'm controlling the Lightify and HUE products through the HUE gateway and HUE android app now.

The Lightify products works fine on the HUE gateway, but you need to upgrade the firmware on the Lightify products before they can turn off with a soft transistion like the HUE's. For this you need the Lightify gateway and app. You can unbind the Lightify products from eg. the Lightify gateway by switching then on and off for 5 times with 5sec on and off time and then discover them via the HUE gateway afterwards.

I have an Osram Lightify Surface also:

http://www.osram.com/osram_com/products/led-technology/indoor-led-luminaires/ceiling-luminaires/lightify-surface-light-tw/index.jsp

It is very bright and have okay dimming performance. But with the stock firmware it was buzzing a lot, I was about to return it, but then tried updating the firmware on it, and all the buzzing went away. The surface is a lot more difficult to unbind then the GU10 and E27 bulbs.. Some times it works, but it is very frustrating, it might work 1 of 10 times. You don't do it often, but it is annoying.

The Osram E27 bulbs is cheaper than the Hue bulbs, at about 35 eur a piece, I find the price to be fair, especially if you compare it to mains dimmers etc. If you need 1 or 2 in a room, I don't see any other products comparing to this. But at eg. 10 pieces, other technologies starts to be more cost effecient..

Sincerly

Michael