Sensors & actuators for additional creative use cases?

[DanF]

Hi,

Loxone is somewhat prescriptive about what a typical install looks like with each room having a presence sensor, blind motors, window contacts, lighting, and potentially audio.

You can do a lot with the basics, but wondering;  what have other people done in a new build project that you might not immediately think of and can't really be retrofitted later?

My contribution:

- Induction loops under the drive to open gates (during specific hours) when a car is present.

Thanks,

Dan

[Dave Barry]

In the middle of this process myself, any good links please Dan?

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[Rob_in]

Hi,

Less obvious stuff and for provision for possible future additions? Here's a few suggestions:

- I ran cat7 cable to the oven/hob hood. Super useful as Loxone can now tell when the hood fan is running and adjust our mechanical ventilation accordingly. Oh, and the hood lights are also now Loxone controlled.

*I opened up the hood unit and put some relays in there so that Loxone can detect the fan running, when the light switch on the hood is operated and also moved the hood light from it's internal switch to a relay activated by Loxone. TBH, I could have also ditched the built in control entirely and also had the fan activated by loxone relays. We have a KNX wire behind a socket right next to the hob so could replace one of the outlets there with a KNX control that could operate the hood but I thought that was overkill.

- Someone else here (sorry, I forget who) recommended putting temperature sensors on the hot water pipes leading you your showers. Detecting a sudden increase here indicates someone is taking a shower and lets you activate a fan in the appropriate bathroom. FWIW, I use a similar sudden increase in temperature or humidity in a bathroom to indicate the same but can see how the pipe sensor could add to the reliability of that.

- Electric towel rails in each bathroom? Make sure each was on it's own circuit so that Loxone could turn them on/off individually. Actually, individual circuits for these are mandatory here in France but mention this in case anyone is tempted to put them on single circuit where that isn't the case.

- Not specifically Loxone related, but we have a mains socket set in the floor in the middle of our open plan living/dinning/kitchen. Handy location to power decorative lights for holiday decorations. Naturally this socket is controlled by a Loxone relay. In hindsight should also have put one underneath the dinning table to plug in a hotplate, raclette grill, etc. Doh!

- In our lounge/bedroom we have a number of sockets where one could plug in lighting that are also controlled by Loxone relays rather than just having them all on a single circuit.

- We have a number of large sliding doors & french doors in one bedroom. I ran spare cables to a spot next to each so if we ever get automatic window treatments the wiring is already in place. There are already automatic exterior roller shutters on all of these but I'm talking about possible automated curtains or blinds inside in the future.

- I put RJ45 network outlets behind kitchen counters/appliances and in the laundry for possible future smart appliances. Yes, most use WiFi but always prefer wired if possible. Plus, wires can always be repurposed. For example, I didn't put a water leak sensor anywhere, but if you felt the need in the future these RJ45 sockets could be re-purposed for a water leak sensor's power/signal.

HTH,

Robin

[Rydens]

Hi, yes I put temperature sensors on pipes which is cheap (£10 for five on Amazon with same spec as the Loxone ones) with one wire and very useful. I can tell if someone is taking a bath or if a shower. If the later I turn on the fan. In both cases I turn on the towel rails and reheat the hot water. 

Have also just installed temp. sensor  on the underfloor heating out and return circuits so I can watch and maybe further automate the underfloor heating. 

If I was doing my extension again I would:

 -  add more wires - just in case

 - more motion sensors, often it's useful to know someone is going in or out which requires at least 2 sensors. It's easy to install them now - very hard later - overdo it!

 - also definitely plan to control heating - even if you don't do it now - put in the wires / ability for later.

 - I have some lighting not on Loxone by design - if the miniserver failed I still want lights while it is being replaced.

 - have also just added a IR light beam across the gate entrance to detect people entering which enhance motion detection to exclude foxes or pigeons - again put in cables. 

 - I haven't yet but still think I need a mounted iPad or screen somewhere with Loxone app running - it's not always fast to get your phone out - cables for power...

Hope this helps shout if questions - and have fun. 

Cheers David

[Rydens]

Should have added my view is Loxone audio in a domestic situation is moving fast and Loxone won't keep up with consumer expectations. 

Sonos and others have much better interfaces and allow more flexibility - and more change will come. 

For commercial or hotel applications Loxone audio makes sense. 

Cheers David

[Simon Still]

 My hood had an output so I didn't need to rewire for this. They now have an automation link for it (Berbel) but not for my model. When I took it apart it didn't seem easy to cut into the light/power control circuits so that didn't happen. 

Robin - Any reason you went for the approach you did? What I really wanted was to detect the hob being switched on and for that to switch on the extractor, lights and house ventilation. 

Bathrooms - I bought mirrors with built in lighting, demist pad and power outlet then rewired them so the lights were controlled by Loxone and the demist pad only operates when lighting is on and humidity is high.   (humidity sensor seems the obvious way to control ventilation/demist rather the detecting presence) 

Loxone Air plugs are great for anything you forget to hardwire (or wifi plugs if you can get them to work - I had mixed success with the Sonoff plugs.  Got one working but never managed to get the second to )

On Wednesday, 11 November 2020 at 07:52:07 UTC Rob_in wrote:

[Ewan Tait]

It's worth hard wiring for shading. I ran 2L+N+E cables to all windows, but wish I'd also run network cable to give more flexibility in how curtain motors and blinds are controlled. However, the curtain motors I've got work fine so far with the 2L+N+E and two relays.

I've got 5A sockets for all my side lights, each wired individually to a relay. In bedrooms I only ran one to each side of the bed, but wish I'd put one in each corner as I did in public rooms (and I didn't bother putting in any for two bedrooms, but wish I had now and will be using Socket Airs to compensate). For the Christmas tree I'm also going to have to use a Socket Air, but a spare 5A would have been useful in the living room as Rob_in suggests.

Watch the position of thermostats. I use the Loxone Touch Pure and have replaced two with Room Comfort Airs (unfortunately they're battery powered, but had they been planned in I would have run 24V to an appropriate location) as the switches are above radiators at the door into the room. I also find in some rooms that the sun catches them and temperature is then incorrect.

I would agree with putting network points everywhere. The only room I missed was the utility room, but wish I had put a couple of points in there. I did chuck a couple in above the kitchen cabinets though.

I wish that I'd wired in window and door contacts, including for internal doors.

Cheers,

Ewan

[Rob_in]

On Wednesday, 11 November 2020 at 12:15:48 UTC+1 Simon Still wrote:

Robin - Any reason you went for the approach you did? What I really wanted was to detect the hob being switched on and for that to switch on the extractor, lights and house ventilation. 

No particular reason I did it that way. Just couldn't be bothered to search for a 'smart' hood and they are very simply devices so easy to mod.

Yeah, it might be nice to detect the hob is on, but that seemed less important for some reason. We have an induction hob and can hear the relays inside it so they would likely be easy enough to tap into. Or could just put a current transformer on it's power supply and assume the hood should be on if it's pulling more than 100W or something (actually there already is one, but it's measured together with all the other kitchen appliances right now and our power monitor doesn't have any spare input circuits).

Robin

 

[Rob_in]

On Wednesday, 11 November 2020 at 10:34:48 UTC+1 Rydens wrote:

Should have added my view is Loxone audio in a domestic situation is moving fast and Loxone won't keep up with consumer expectations. 

Sonos and others have much better interfaces and allow more flexibility - and more change will come. 

For commercial or hotel applications Loxone audio makes sense. 

IMHO A/V is a very fluid field and should be as modular as you can make it. I just installed ceiling speakers wired back to a nearby location for amps, sources, etc. The amps and such are out of the way but there's plenty of space there to replace them and do all manner of upgrades if that's ever necessary. If you are really serious about your A/V then running large conduit or trunking you can pull old cables out of and install new ones is probably a good idea. Does anyone do that?

Robin

[RSinn]

I did run the window and door contacts but also (like someone just mentioned here) it would be good to have internal door sensors. that way you can properly zone the heating and you don't waste it e.g. bedroom door left open so its heating the hallway.

I like the temps on shower pipes but hadn't done it in time. instead used humidity 1-wire (unipi) and they work great. just make sure you set a schedule for night so they don't turn on in an ensuite whilst you are trying to sleep.

I decided to just get the house working and wait for the garden so installed a schneider metal box near the front door to house a PSU, dmx lighting driver and ran some power and dmx cable. Similarly the rear garden I plan to have dmx lighting, relay for sprinklers and full controlled environment in the greenhouse (soil moisture levels, air humidity, light sensors, ventilation, water and feed via pumps) so bought a plastic gas meter cupboard somewhere convenient down the side of the house and ran about 3 loops of ring main and 3 CAT cables. when i come to do the garden i can bury the cable and run back to this meter cupboard without having to do any internal work to the house.

Outdoor light sensor would be useful. Because the movement sensors only turn the lights on with sunset 30 if it gets really dark during the day (big black clouds etc.) the lights don't come on. 

Haven't yet installed my outside temp sensor but definitely needed as the heating doesn't adapt quick enough.

Check building regs for smoke/heat/CO2 detection especially if you have a log burner. Run this past the building inspector before plasterboarding as you may need some extras e.g. we had to put one in an office that was more than 18m from the front door.

[Simon Still]

Network cabling and conduit.  

My personal view is that running network cable to every room is a bit of a waste of time - unless it's to the right location in the room it's useless. So I have network points at 

- living room AV centre

- Office desk 

- kitchen AV

- a few key locations where PoIP powered wireless points are mounted. 

Conduit - between AV and screen in both kitchen and living room.  Well worth the time and effort.  You *will* need it one day.

[DanF]

So, one thing that didn't come up in this thread is "microphones".

As and when voice control becomes more widespread, surely they'll be a need for microphones in each room?   Maybe Loxone will use their presence sensor,. or introduce a new device for this if they ever support voice out of the box, but from a future-proofing perspective, what do people think is the best way to prepare for per-room microphones?

Thanks,

[Rob_in]

On Sunday, 18 April 2021 at 01:44:13 UTC+2 DanF wrote:

...what do people think is the best way to prepare for per-room microphones?

For me, I think putting cat7 cable everywhere is the best option. There's not much (in the sensor/electronics realm) that can't be powered/communicate over this.

Robin

[Daniel Feist]

Motion sensors already have CAT7 but I'm already using the spare cores for door/window contacts, so if I need anything else i'm stuck unless I run an  additonal CAT7 to somewhere in each room.

I'd assume anything Loxone does in this space would be tree based though..

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[Rob_in]

On Sunday, 18 April 2021 at 11:08:46 UTC+2 DanF wrote:

Motion sensors already have CAT7 but I'm already using the spare cores for door/window contacts, so if I need anything else i'm stuck unless I run an  additonal CAT7 to somewhere in each room.

Well, if you use cores for 'dumb' contacts sure, there are limits.

However, as you rightly elude to, if you use just a couple of wires for a bus a huge number of devices are possible. KNX, Loxone tree, CAN bus, Modbus, 1-Wire, etc, etc.

Robin 

[Flux]

I put a proximity sensor in the wall behind the toilet seat in the bathroom, so when the seat is lifted, it shuts the blinds, this coupled with a flow sensor in the toilet cold water feed means that when the toilet is flushed , the fan comes on for a set time, and the blinds go back up. You could also via the TTS of the audio sever to shame a guilty party for not putting the seat back down (Wife pleaser for sure, if you cannot get the budget for all your Loxone dreams past her, this one works like a charm)

I also used a flow sensor in the shower water flow , which again closes the blinds when the shower is turned on, changes the light scene to bright, turns on the towel rail and puts the 1-10v fan motor at full speed , for a specific period of time, turns on the timer for the under wall heating to dry the shower and towels on exit. The only problem with this is that I sited the loxone temp/humidity sensor, directly above the towel rail , which whilst not completely on topic, also proves that you should try and plan everything in as much detail as possible. I now have to put up with the Miniserver moaning that the room is out of temp range every time i have a shower..... all because i cannot now move said sensor or towel rail.

Flux

[David Wallis]

In wall heating??

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[Flux]

Yes , In wall heating, well under tile in wall heating, I thought about it and decided that if I am allowed to put loose heating cable under the tiles in the floor of a bathroom, then why cant i put it in the tiled walls of a shower.  I checked with the manufacturer and as long as the supply cable had a additional earth screening then this would be fine. As far as I am concerned its the same as boiling a kettle with an electric element, its surrounded by water, but you dont get a shock. 

[Daniel Feist]

What flow sensors are you using?

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[Flux]

The link I have for the exact model does  not work anymore, but here is something that is 90% comparible

Flow Switch