Installing Theben DM 8-2 T KNX dimmer (putting together a "how-to" for non-programmer/KNX types)

[Clegger]

Morning all.

My electrician finally came around and wired up the Theben dimmer. All working well on manual control, and first impressions of the quality of the unit and the dimming itself are excellent.

I'm now trying to get it all working in Loxone and must admit to finding it harder than I thought it would be. I find the whole KNX approach highly opaque, but that may be because it works so differently to Loxone (the only other system of this general type I've ever used). For someone like me, Loxone's EIB/KNX documentation is really not very helpful.

My aim is to take the replies to this post and put together a "how to" for people like me who want to use these dimmers but have no programming or KNX experience.

First, I've installed ETS5. I understand that this should be okay without buying a licence, because I'm only programming a single dimmer in a single project.

Next, I've confirmed that the ETS software has found my Loxone setup. There's a KNX address 1.1.250 at the bottom left of my screen beside the name of my Loxone installation and its IP address, with the correct port (3671).

I've taken a look at Duncan's helpful comments and screenshots in this thread: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/loxone-english/G1kb5HCZWSg/ffHQURTOEwAJ

The two most relevant screenshots are attached, and there's another PDF showing the steps I've managed to figure out so far (in the form of a "how-to"). I haven't managed to work it all out though.

First, in one of Duncan's screenshots, the dimmer itself has an address of 1.1.21. I can see how to add an address, but is there any reason not to just go with something like 1.1.1 given that I have no intention of using KNX for anything in future other than maybe one or two more of these dimmers? Is the device-level address used for anything after this step?

Second, the right-hand pane of Duncan's devices list in ETS shows group addresses (0/6/44, 0/6/45, etc) beside the 'dimming value' of each channel. From a quick search, group addresses seem to be used where you want to control multiple devices with a single command, but isn't that something that would be handled in Loxone? But then I look at the attached Loxone screenshot from Duncan, and notice that the EIB address in the properties for each channel is the group address. Can anyone explain what's going on here? Also, assuming I do need to add group addresses as shown, how do I do that?

No doubt I'll need a bit more help when I get into the Loxone side of things. Once I have everything working I'll update the attached PDF how-to and post it so anyone else wanting to use these dimmers has a step-by-step guide.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

 

[Duncan]

My device address is 1.1.21 because I have 21 devices, by all means start with 1.1.1, each physical hardware device needs a unique address. - this address is only used for comms between ETS and the devices during programming, where as the group addresses are used to receive or send commands for their functions such as button pushes, temperature, dimming value etc etc

each function within a device needs a group address  to send from or receive commands, whether its to loxone or other knx devices

You always need group addresses even for 1 device in loxone, as loxone had to be configured to send the right command to the correct channel/functional unit of the knx address.

The choice of group addresses is arbitrary but each device you intend to control separately needs a unique group address. If 2 channels were given the same group address the both would dim at the same time - people tend to have their own scheme - so for example input switches on 0/1/1 to 0/1/255 range, dimmers on 0/6/1 to 0/6/255 range

if you give a dimmer the group address 0/0/1 then the corresponding actuator in loxone must have the matching address to control it

if you gave the same group address to all 8 channels of the dimmer and attached 200w of leds to each channel, a single knx actuator in loxnoe config with a single group address would control the brightness of all 8 channels in parallel and enable you do dim 1600w of lighting. obviously we would normally use 8 separate channels each with its own group address

[Jeff]

Thanks for the replies. I tried looking at Youtube vids and various guides, but they seemed to be either too broad or too specific (and not Loxone-related). I'm making some progress, but not quite there yet.

First, I've allocated 1.1.1 to the dimmer itself. All good.  

Secondly, group addresses. Having a play around, it looks like these will automatically be allocated if I set up rooms and associated functions in the 'Buildings' window. For example, in the first attachment, I've added a 'Study', and added a 'Dimmable light' function. This has automatically generated a series of group addresses. Is this a (the?) way of acquiring the required group addresses? Assuming so, I've dragged the address of the 'dimming value' for that channel up into the corresponding channel, as shown in the first attachment.

I then added a KNX actuator in Loxone using the corresponding group address (I subsequently tried the KNX/EIB learning function, but actually it looks like this is just a way of simplifying mapping of KNX/EIB actuators in Loxone. If I understand this correctly, as long as the group address is correct in Loxone, you don't actually need to use the Learn function).

Next, I dragged the Study actuator onto a page in Loxone, and added an EIB dimmer block, as shown in the second attachment. I'm not sure how to connect the EIB dimmer block to the actuator. And do I use a lighting controller to provide an output to control the EIB dimmer block?

Nearly there (I hope!) Thanks again for all your input. 

[Duncan]

you dont need to use the eib dimmer block  - if you have configured the knx actuator as the correcty type, just attach it to an output of a lighting controller block

the ieb dimmer block is only needed if you have knx switches that directly drive the dimmers, so the loxone config can keep in sync via the ieb dimmer

if you are using knx as dumb inputs/ouputs with loxone as the smarts then they are not needed

i dont know about the auto config functions as i always create the knx inputs and outputs manually and set my own choice of group addresses and kxn types - the way i do it is to manully create the 8 knx actuators in loxone config with appropriate titles, eg dm82-1.1, dm82-1.2 etc, change their type to dim/position eis6, adjust the group address of each to match what you are going to use in the device eg 0/0/1, 0/0/2

then simply drag the actuators on to the page for the rooms (assuming default room is already set) and link it to the required output of the room's lighting controller, and ensure that the lighting controller has that output as a dimmer 0-100%

[Jeff]

Thanks again Leo and Duncan.

I'm so close I can taste it, but unfortunately, the dimmer doesn't seem to be under the control of Loxone just yet.

I have the AQ1 output of the old lighting controller (V1 I think it is - never updated to the new block) connected to the input of the KNX actuator. In Live View, pressing the light switch in the study cycles AQ1 through 0, 60% and 90% as programmed, so that seems right. 

According to the EIB monitor in Loxone (see attached), a message is being sent to what looks like the right group address (0/2/3). For example, with AQ1 showing 90% in Live View, the EIB message to group address 0/2/3 has a value of 229, which is 90% of 254. It therefore seems as though something like the correct message is appearing on the bus. Is that group address (for 'dimming value') the only one that needs dragging into the channel 1 list for this device? 

I've double-checked and the study lights are definitely channel 1. I can turn them on and off manually using the buttons on the dimmer, no problem.   

I'm don't believe I've enabled manual-only mode anywhere.

Does anyone have any ideas about what I might be overlooking? Can I get the dimmer to send info back to Loxone or ETS for me to monitor the dimming status?

Many thanks

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 17:47, Duncan <joanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

you dont need to use the eib dimmer block  - if you have configured the knx actuator as the correcty type, just attach it to an output of a lighting controller block

the ieb dimmer block is only needed if you have knx switches that directly drive the dimmers, so the loxone config can keep in sync via the ieb dimmer

if you are using knx as dumb inputs/ouputs with loxone as the smarts then they are not needed

i dont know about the auto config functions as i always create the knx inputs and outputs manually and set my own choice of group addresses and kxn types

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[Jeff]

(Deleted and reposting again with better screencap)

Thanks again Leo and Duncan.

I'm so close I can taste it, but unfortunately, the dimmer doesn't seem to be under the control of Loxone just yet.

I have the AQ1 output of the old lighting controller (V1 I think it is - never updated to the new block) connected to the input of the KNX actuator. In Live View, pressing the light switch in the study cycles AQ1 through 0, 60% and 90% as programmed, so that seems right. 

According to the EIB monitor in Loxone (see attached), a message is being sent to what looks like the right group address (0/2/3). For example, with AQ1 showing 90% in Live View, the EIB message to group address 0/2/3 has a value of 229, which is 90% of 254. It therefore seems as though something like the correct message is appearing on the bus. Is that group address (for 'dimming value') the only one that needs dragging into the channel 1 list for this device? 

I've double-checked and the study lights are definitely channel 1. I can turn them on and off manually using the buttons on the dimmer, no problem.   

I don't believe I've enabled manual-only mode anywhere.

Does anyone have any ideas about what I might be overlooking? Can I get the dimmer to send info back to Loxone or ETS for me to monitor the dimming status?

Many thanks

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 17:47, Duncan <joanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

you dont need to use the eib dimmer block  - if you have configured the knx actuator as the correcty type, just attach it to an output of a lighting controller block

the ieb dimmer block is only needed if you have knx switches that directly drive the dimmers, so the loxone config can keep in sync via the ieb dimmer

if you are using knx as dumb inputs/ouputs with loxone as the smarts then they are not needed

i dont know about the auto config functions as i always create the knx inputs and outputs manually and set my own choice of group addresses and kxn types

On Wednesday, 11 September 2019 15:38:59 UTC+1, Clegger wrote:

--

[Duncan]

i think you have something wrong in your configuration as the theben accepts 0-100% messages as a single byte type, not 0-255

[Bartel Eerdekens]

I used this software (although it does not list the latest ETS and LoxConfig), it worked perfectly for my Theben DM 8-T Dimmers!

http://www.kreuzers.home.dic.at/software/Loxone_KNX_Import.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijeYIG6cRI4

[Julián Medrano Silvestre]

Take a look at

https://smarthome-loewemann.de/p/knx-wizard 

I've used it and it's quite helpull.

By the way, a new KNX Extension is comming out in 1 month or so... 

Any of you have some information about it????

[Duncan]

i think for a single knx dimmer you could take a short while to manually create the knx sensors/actuators in the config file rather than having to spend money on a software tool or manually editing the output of a knx file, which is likely to cause more problems than simply adding 8 knx actuators...

[Jeff]

Thanks all for the further suggestions.

It ended up being something very simple (and my apologies for it taking me this long to figure it out). 

It occurred to me that the messages were getting onto the bus from Loxone (I checked using the EIB bus monitor), so it must be a reception problem. It had puzzled me how the device address was allocated, and I finally found a Youtube video that explained that. In short, I wasn't aware of the "download" function in ETS for allocating the dimmer address. I've done that now and everything's working fine. 

Thanks very much for your help. I'll finish writing up a guide to installing this dimmer within a Loxone environment for people who've never used KNX before and publish it to the list.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 10:22, Duncan <joanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

i think for a single knx dimmer you could take a short while to manually create the knx sensors/actuators in the config file rather than having to spend money on a software tool or manually editing the output of a knx file, which is likely to cause more problems than simply adding 8 knx actuators...

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[njamessimpson]

I just wanted to thank everyone that has contributed to the discussion on fitting the Theben dimmer/KNX. I did this over the weekend from scratch and these were invaluable for a newbie such as myself. Even the simple things were difficult to understand initially - for example, setting the group addresses only for the dimming value per channel, adding the Theben catalogue, downloading etc. Not completely intuitive. Nevertheless, done and would not have happened without the contributors to this forum. I'm sure your user guide would be helpful - would start from scratch in ETS5 if you have the time!

All channels working but one odd niggle on one channel which may be wiring related. Wanted to check if anyone had seen.

So one channel feeds 2 LED spots. When the dimmer is "off" i.e. zero, the channel still has c. 10 volts running through it which is causing one of the bulbs to have a small glow. Saw that previously on other DMX circuits where neutral is dimmed but wasn't expecting with Theben. For that channel, in ETS5 the load selection is set to automatic (did also try dimmable energy saving L response), minimum dimming value set at 10%. In loxone, light type set as EIS6 (0-100%). CIrcuit shows as "0" in Live Mode.

Any ideas? Also for what physical circuity might cause this - not ruling that out!

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 3:07:25 PM UTC+1, Clegger wrote:

Thanks all for the further suggestions.

It ended up being something very simple (and my apologies for it taking me this long to figure it out). 

It occurred to me that the messages were getting onto the bus from Loxone (I checked using the EIB bus monitor), so it must be a reception problem. It had puzzled me how the device address was allocated, and I finally found a Youtube video that explained that. In short, I wasn't aware of the "download" function in ETS for allocating the dimmer address. I've done that now and everything's working fine. 

Thanks very much for your help. I'll finish writing up a guide to installing this dimmer within a Loxone environment for people who've never used KNX before and publish it to the list.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 10:22, Duncan <joanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

i think for a single knx dimmer you could take a short while to manually create the knx sensors/actuators in the config file rather than having to spend money on a software tool or manually editing the output of a knx file, which is likely to cause more problems than simply adding 8 knx actuators...

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[Bartel Eerdekens]

The Theben dimmers have load detection enabled by default.
You can search the manual for it: https://www.theben.de/ocsmedia/optimized/full/o6391v42%20200%20W%20KNX-Dimmer%20-%20Hand%20book.PDF

But I haven't tried it myself. Also in the 5.4 section Dimming LED lamps, they recommend using the RC-dimming, which has load detection enabled by default.

But I do have noticed some LED bulbs do not handle this load detection well, others does.

Probably you are running into the minimum load specified for a channel as well:

The minimum output per channel is 2 W

As with only 2 LED bulbs (e.g. of 7W each), you won't get proper dimming behaviour: 2 * 7W at 100% = 14W, but 2 * 7W at 1% is only 0,14W. So your minimum dimming value should be at least 15% to get to this 2W.

Hope it helps.

[njamessimpson]

Thanks. Will take a look. The odd thing is that this is happening when the dining value is set to zero ie. should be no load.