loxone uk, change in attitude toward customers - not for the better

[Andrew whetton]

Not sure if its just me or has anyone else norticed that loxone uk seems to have decided that customer ( partner ) satisfaction is no longer a priority.

used to get really good support and help with hardware problems but now every problem is my fault.

please be aware of this, double check everything you have from them.

see ticket in progress.

Me

I have a number of touch tree switch fronts purchased for a project which I have found to be non usable for the project.

 

 

The touch tree fronts are smaller than a standard uk dry lining back box and as such leave the back box exposed when fitted, which is visually unacceptable to my client.

Also the back mounting plates are also very too small and keep pulling inside the back boxes. I have tried the fronts on 3 different manufacturers back boxes with the same results.

 

I raised both these issues with Omid last year and discussed the touch tree pure fronts, and agreed I would wait for the black pure fronts.

 

I have made contact today with respect to the black pure fronts and I have now been told I cannot return the original touch tree fronts for refund or credit as they have been with me for more than 14 days.

 

I wish to therefore return them as not fit for purpose.

 

The touch tree pure switch plates are the correct size for uk back boxes, I propose using these for the project and I’m awaiting the release of the black pure  switches to be announced.

 

I’m quite happy to have a credit for the returned items.

Loxone

Dear Andrew,

Thanks for getting in touch.

The Touch range (Touch and Touch Pure) are designed for mounting on either metal in-wall or ideally for better fitment circular backboxes not the UK type dry lining boxes with flanges. The mounting frame that is on the Touch is identical to that of the Touch Pure and if you're having problems with the frame fulling back into a backbox then you'll also get this with the Pure. When having this problem a good solution is a spacer or washer equal to the depth of the threaded hole in backbox to the front face of the backbox. This is typically 5mm on a standard UK metal backbox.

Our primary recommendation is to fit circular European style backboxes as detailed on the product documentation pages. These can be found at most electrical wholesalers but for reference the ones I suggest you use are these: http://www.kaiser-elektro.de/catalogue/catalogue.d...

or

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/back-boxes/7018935/

Regarding using the Touch Pure to try and get around the "flange" of the dry-lining box protruding out the side of the switch the outer dimension of the flush-to-wall element of BOTH switches is 80mm so the flange will still protrude out from this and be visible behind the switch. The Pure won't hide this although having a wider front section (90mm) is raised from the wall and leaves the space behind visible. You can see product dimensions on our documentation pages.

Touch Tree: https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/touch-tree/

Touch Pure Tree: https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/touch-pure-tree/

I'm afraid in this case since you are past the 14 day returns period then I can not process any swap, credit or replacement for you as the items are in working order.

Sorry to not be of more help in this case.

I have subsequently asked when the section regarding the european back boxes was added, but as yet not had a reply.

left with 12 touch tree switches which do not fit uk cavity fix back boxes.

I had a similar outcome with a problem last year with 6amp rated relays on an extension welding closed, the load was 2 x 10w led flood lights

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for going through your old communications and copying this into this email. I have sent the serial numbers across to our procurement and production team in Austria to see if there was any increased number of failures being reported for Extensions that were manufactured with the same batch of relays.

They got back to me today and reported that there was not. So as I already said on the phone there is no bad / faulty batch of relays that we are aware of.

My thoughts / advice on the faults you have had.

1. A relay will always show as being operated in Liveview, even if it has failed, since we are not monitoring the mechanical relay, or the output side of the relay, but the input signal.

2. Relays working intermittently is a clear sign of pitting of the contacts. This is caused by arcing when making / breaking the circuit. In laymen's terms what happens is that the contact surfaces of the relay contacts start to become uneven and start to stick together. Almost like velcro. The spring in the relay will then no longer be able to pull the relay apart, resulting it to stay on. The most common cause for premature wear of a relay in this way is in-rush current (caused by capacitive loads) or inductive kickback. Our relays are protected against inductive kickback with diodes, but there is no way to protect against in-rush current.

3. The most common cause for in-rush current are capacitors. Since every Mains LED has a power supply with capacitors built into it this is something that needs to be considered when switching mains LEDS. Other times this needs to be considered is when switching power supplies, i.e. 230V to 12V transformers, or other "drivers" for light fittings. Fluorescent tubes are another type of lights where you have to bear this in mind. The "starters" in fluorescent tube fittings are essentially capacitors.

You mention that only relays with light circuits were affected and "fortunately" no heating circuits. This is most likely because there are no capacitive loads present on the heating circuits you are controlling. Pumps or motorised valves usually present inductive loads.

To restore the customer's confidence I would suggest to explain the facts in exactly the same way as I just have to you to them. There si no fault in the light fitting and there is no fault with the Loxone System. It is a mismatch of the two. The relays in the Extension that were installed were not rated to handle the in-rush currents on some of the circuits and as such have failed prematurely, due to the excessive stress.

i supplied data sheets for the 10w floods and asked for confirmation of wether or not these presented to great a load for the relays, no reply was forthcoming

It is such a shame a basically great product being completely jaded for me.

[Duncan]

i couldnt agree more - they seemed to have changed strategic direction a couple of years ago and are now only interested in large scale installers creating loxone-only installs and shifting large volume of loxone hardware boxes, often with little imagination for other ways of doing things.

there appears a gradual withdrawal of support for other technologies particularly if it undermines sales of dimmers/extensions/air products - obviously they have a business to run but when their alternative equipment isnt suitable for the whole market (such as the ill-fitting switches above) or is ugly (touch switches) and cant be easily labelled, then we need to be able to use suitable alternatives

after having attended their full training course to be a silver partner, we were all offered a 35% reduction on 2 purchaces, one for our own home and one for an office/demo install, but mine was subsequently refused and my bronze discount removed because they decided i was a designer not an installer and wouldnt be shifting enough pieces of loxone hardware.

since then ive continued to use the miniserver and dmx extension at the core of designs, but tend to design using knx inputs, 3rd party dmx and knx dimmers, 3rd party input/output modules such as knx, elexol and pokeys57 and alternative AV equipment such sonos, logitech (musicserver4lox) etc

[Peter]

Andrew, I raised the problem of UK back boxes last year.
My first Touch Tree was fitted to a drywall plastic box and is ok. However, there is a white edge of the box visible around the switch.
I had all sorts of problems fitting a switch to a metal back box, they are not suitable (as you say).
This prompted me to contact Loxone, and they recommended a circular EU box. I suggested that recommendation should be included in the documentation but was told it was too late for the most recent changes. That email conversation took place on Nov 1st
Incidentally I think I might need a few more switches but haven't yet decided whether to use a different type downstairs.

[vampiris]

Andrew,

Did you try to use a Memory Flag?

[DavidL]

A partner email a few months ago riled me, with regards to having to update your partnership status with Loxone on a yearly basis along with satisfying their minimum sales figure. That's definitely favouring a larger installer and pushing the small people like me away. I may have only done a few installs, but surely that still warrants some form of recognition for getting their products out there.

I think the closing of their forum was a big sign that they're unwilling to entertain the integration of 3rd party products. It's pushed people away to other locations, such as this, to find helpful and resourceful people able to give advice and working knowledge of integrating.

Incidentally, I've managed to get a touch switch vaguely working at home. I had to plaster the standard UK back box perfectly flush to the wall and it sits ok on top. I did have a strange problem of getting the switch clipped in and the buttons then not working. It was like the battery had been forced out of contact or a microswitch wasn't being activated. A bit of perseverance and I got it working, but no really understanding as to how.

Duncan, I think we may have been on the same course - Reading in June 2014?

David

[Clegger]

I was a self-installer (with a lot of help from my electrician) on a new self-build.  I went to one of the open evenings at a pub a couple of years ago before we started building our house, then went on the training course shortly before starting our installation.  I've watched the attitude to self-builders and technical help change hugely over that period.

- Duncan said: "after having attended their full training course to be a silver partner, we were all offered a 35% reduction on 2 purchaces, one for our own home and one for an office/demo install, but mine was subsequently refused and my bronze discount removed because they decided i was a designer not an installer and wouldnt be shifting enough pieces of loxone hardware."   Glad I wasn't the only one that was sucked in by this crap.  After having been promised a discount in all the sign-up material and even during the verbal introduction to the installers' course, I was told when I went to buy that the discounts only applied to "professional installers", whatever that is.  Nothing in any of their materials about this, which means it's misadvertising in my book.  I complained and they assured me it was a misunderstanding and promised they'd update their materials and intro to make it clearer.  Not even so much as a 2% goodwill discount offered on my order.  A self-builder friend of mine attended the same course a few months later - recommended by me - and they did exactly the same thing to him (I asked him to make a note of it).  I didn't realise it it had been going on longer.  If true, this seems worryingly like blatant lying.

-  When I went to buy I realised how much more we were paying in the UK.  Looking at any of the euro-denominated websites, it was going to cost me literally hundreds of £s more to buy in the UK, even though it was not just the same equipment, but would in fact be shipped from the same warehouse as, say, an order through the German website!  I contacted them to complain that I was being prevented from ordering via the German website, and was again told sorry but tough.  They apparently don't want to change UK pricing more than once every couple of years and will only sell to the UK via the UK website.  That's absolutely ridiculous given some of the exchange rate movements we've experienced even over the course of months in the last decade.  I did start looking into this with an EU body that deals with this sort of thing and was told there appeared to be a clear case to answer on the face of it.  Unfortunately, I was building a house at the time and didn't have the time or energy to take a formal fight to them, plus I needed the equipment in days rather than months.

- I recently recommended Loxone (wireless) to friends who were installing IR panels in an old farmhouse.  My electrician installed it and set up the interface for them.  After he left they were having some issues with the intelligent controller which the electrician couldn't help them with.  They rang Loxone for some really basic technical help and were told they'd have to speak to a Loxone installer!

- The pricing on some of their products is ridiculous.  For example, I'd happily have gone for their dimmer module for ease of interfacing with the rest of the system, but the price per channel - especially if you didn't want all the other functionality with it - is eye-watering, especially if you want to dim a lot of lights in a house.

I think Loxone is a very clever product, and at a personal level I've liked everyone I've dealt with there.  But fundamentally, they're now chasing the same market as Control4 and the like, which is wealthy people with large installations.  

I also think it's unfair that they held themselves out as being self-installer-friendly before I bought, but have now (having taken in some cases thousands of £s for hardware) changed their attitude to support.

[Simon Still]

On Thursday, 12 January 2017 17:14:21 UTC, Andrew whetton wrote:

Not sure if its just me or has anyone else norticed that loxone uk seems to have decided that customer ( partner ) satisfaction is no longer a priority.

used to get really good support and help with hardware problems but now every problem is my fault.

I've got a lot more sympathy for them from a business perspective but I don't think they've handled it very well. 

The classic model for home automation providers is that of Lutron or KNX.  (This generalises somewhat) -  Expensive products, closed ecosystem with limited integration with 3rd party products, only available to buy through approved installers.  Installers required to go on expensive courses. Configuration software requires paid licence.    All of which are designed to discourage "hobbyist" self installation.

The other end of the market is low cost retrofit modules which are cheap enough to sell in bulk, have fairly minimal configuration capability but again are completely closed ecosystems. 

Loxone seemed to buck this trend - Low cost hardware, low cost courses (I didn't even go on the basic course - just taught myself), highly configurable and flexible, free config software, hardware that would integrate with 'commodity' tech like DMX, standard off the shelf light switches or with other ecosystems like KNX. They also provided support via phone/email/forum.  

That was what attracted me to it in the first place - I've never have stumped up the £10,000+ for a professional Loxone install (or even higher for any alternative).   However - at the same time I've struggled to understand how the business model worked.  If you run a system using a single Miniserver and a DMX extension then use commodity DMX dimmers and relays for all your outputs you've only spent £650 with Loxone.  Even if their margin is 50% that's not enough to fund support and app development for the life of those products.  Single installation buyers will also have hugely higher support costs than someone installing 10 or more systems each year. 

The Loxone model got them into the market and grew some share but at some point the money men looked at the business and banged some heads together because their profit margins were too low and they had support costs that were growing faster than revenues. They have no income stream from existing installations but still have support costs for them - it's like a pyramid scheme and it can only work if they're growing. If sales and profit flatten they still have a support cost that steps up each year. 

So - increase the profit per installation by widening the range of Loxone products. Discourage use of non-Loxone solutions (so expect only essential maintenance to 3rd party integrations).  Expand the potential market by increasing range of wireless products over those requiring in-wall wired install (though these still aren't plug and play so need for a qualified electrician to install in most markets keeps to pro install). Focus on sales through installers>individuals.  

I'd not be surprised to see an annual software licence (with free support) or just chargeable support in future.  They need to have some sort of ongoing revenue stream to match to ongoing costs. Again, not a problem if focusing on pro installers - most owners will have/need a service contract and the costs to the installer are easily spread over multiple customers. 

It's in all our interests for Loxone to have a sustainable business model that can keep funding enhancements and maintenance.  

[Simon Still]

On Saturday, 14 January 2017 21:20:56 UTC, Clegger wrote:

 

-  When I went to buy I realised how much more we were paying in the UK.  Looking at any of the euro-denominated websites, it was going to cost me literally hundreds of £s more to buy in the UK, even though it was not just the same equipment, but would in fact be shipped from the same warehouse as, say, an order through the German website!  I contacted them to complain that I was being prevented from ordering via the German website, and was again told sorry but tough.  They apparently don't want to change UK pricing more than once every couple of years and will only sell to the UK via the UK website.  That's absolutely ridiculous given some of the exchange rate movements we've experienced even over the course of months in the last decade.  I did start looking into this with an EU body that deals with this sort of thing and was told there appeared to be a clear case to answer on the face of it.  Unfortunately, I was building a house at the time and didn't have the time or energy to take a formal fight to them, plus I needed the equipment in days rather than months.

Again, having run the UK distribution of a German company I have some sympathy.  It's not practical to continually set prices based on current exchange rates.  At current rates Loxone's prices are pretty much the same UK vs Germany. 

Whilst there is (currently) free trade between European countries there's no obligation on a retailer to sell internationally (or even nationally - I've had 'we don't deliver to your area' from UK retailers).  Loxone sell through resellers in Europe - there are sellers in Germany, NL and Belgium who are more than happy to ship Loxone products to the UK.  

[Clegger]

I think you're right, except that I suspect this wasn't a conclusion they reached at some point along the line.  I suspect (without much evidence, I'll admit) that they were happy to sell to literally anyone who'd buy, when they were first setting out.  People who would otherwise be spending big bucks on Lutron or even Control4 were unlikely to take a risk with a newcomer on a large project, so self-installers - particularly knowledgeable ones like many of you on here - were a natural initial audience for them.

What annoys me is that this isn't a zero sum game.  You can go for the premium installer model without cutting off the interested hobbiest.  I guess they know where their priorities are, but I do believe it's poor form (if not illegal) to more or less pull the plug on supporting customers who you told you'd support when they bought from you.

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 1:26:34 PM UTC, Simon Still wrote:

I've got a lot more sympathy for them from a business perspective but I don't think they've handled it very well. 

...

 

The Loxone model got them into the market and grew some share but at some point the money men looked at the business and banged some heads together because their profit margins were too low and they had support costs that were growing faster than revenues. 

 

It's in all our interests for Loxone to have a sustainable business model that can keep funding enhancements and maintenance.  

[Clegger]

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:01:45 PM UTC, Simon Still wrote:

Again, having run the UK distribution of a German company I have some sympathy.  It's not practical to continually set prices based on current exchange rates.  

Having been on the board of a small multinational (admittedly services-based) company with clients in 10 countries, I'm afraid I disagree.  I was told by Loxone that they want to fix prices for two years at a time.  That's crazy given some of the forex swings we've seen over the last decade.  This is even moreso when you move towards an installer-based model (rather than retail), because your web store becomes less and less important to your sales.

I'm not saying that the prices should change hour to hour with exchange rates, but I do think that two years is far too long.   

Of course they have the right to do this (up to a point - see below), but I have a corresponding right to think it's a poor business model that will serve only to annoy potential customers.

 

At current rates Loxone's prices are pretty much the same UK vs Germany. 

Well they weren't anything like the same when I bought ~18 months ago!  :-/

 

Whilst there is (currently) free trade between European countries there's no obligation on a retailer to sell internationally (or even nationally - I've had 'we don't deliver to your area' from UK retailers).  Loxone sell through resellers in Europe - there are sellers in Germany, NL and Belgium who are more than happy to ship Loxone products to the UK.  

Ah, but they *are* selling internationally.  It's the same company operating the web stores that sell to both the UK and Germany.  That company is sometimes forcing residents of one EU state to buy at significantly highers price than those of a different state.  That is clearly discrimination on the basis of residence.  From memory, EU law is a complete mess in this area, but in theory there is an issue here.

And again, the problem is as much the "tough luck" attitude as the reality of the situation.

[Simon Still]

On Monday, 16 January 2017 16:35:57 UTC, Clegger wrote:

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:01:45 PM UTC, Simon Still wrote:

This is even moreso when you move towards an installer-based model (rather than retail), because your web store becomes less and less important to your sales.

I think you've got that the wrong way around.  The price of the hardware only matters to the DIY market - the pro quote I got to install didn't break it out and as a pro installer the hardware is a relatively minor part of the total install cost.  An installer wants to price a job for a customer and have certainty about their margins - that means they need to be confidant that their hardware price will be the same as when they quoted.  Customers often don't take up quotes for many months and often over a year.  Installers don't want to have to reprice a quote when it's finally accepted (and going back and saying it's now 10% more expensive is always unpopular). 

 

Ah, but they *are* selling internationally.  It's the same company operating the web stores that sell to both the UK and Germany.  That company is sometimes forcing residents of one EU state to buy at significantly highers price than those of a different state.  

Is it the same company?  It shows up as Loxone UK Limited which suggests they have a UK subsidiary rather than an office of the Germany company. 

As I said, there are other EU retailers - you didn't have to buy through Loxone UK or Loxone Germany but I suspect you wanted the convenience of not having to deal with paying in a foreign currency or having to post overseas for warranty if something went wrong.