Loxone alarm keypad

[Ewoud]

Hi all,

 

Currently I have a Loxone miniserver for virtualization of my KNX system. I am also using the miniserver for my alarm with door and with window contacts. This works all fine but I can only arm/disarm the alarm with the app. Because there is no traditional physical keypad at the front- and backdoor. We sometimes forget to arm/disarm the alarm. That’s why I am searching for a keypad that integrates with Loxone. I know Smartbusinesstools had a RFID reader including keypad. But that is not for sale anymore for a long time now and the site states it’s looking for an alternative generic product.

 

I haven’t been able to get a response from them on my last email. Maybe somebody knows if they have something on their roadmap? Or maybe know alternatives from other suppliers?

 

Ewoud 

[DavidL]

I used something similar to this on a project

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125KHz-Waterproof-Metal-Case-Keypad-RFID-2000-Users-Access-Control-BC-/162452660146?hash=item25d2eedfb2:g:UbUAAOSwa~BYRtQt

The only (non)issue is the code is held inside the keypad and not Loxone. The relay inside the keypad switches a voltage when the correct code is entered or an RFID tag is swiped, which triggers Loxone in to arming or disarming the alarm.

It works, and is what the client wanted here, but it does have the potential to easily be tampered with if you had an electronics smart intruder. It certainly wouldn't classify as an alarm for insurance purposes.

David

[Deac99]

Hi,  I bought a nice weatherproof sealed keypad on Ebay similar to what DavidL posted.  It looks like all or most RFID readers use the Wiegand protocol (whatever that is).  I bought a Wiegand to RS232 converter board  from these people:  https://www.rfideas.com/products/converters/wiegand-serial  and an RS232 extension from Loxone.  The board was straight forward to hook up and everything works perfectly.

Now instead of having the keypad be the brain, the keypad is simply a keypad sending all signals to Loxone and I made the software in Loxone to decode the keypad and / or the RFID reads.  This way I can program new ID's and disable old ID's remotely.

[Ewoud]

The only (non)issue is the code is held inside the keypad and not Loxone. The relay inside the keypad switches a voltage when the correct code is entered or an RFID tag is swiped, which triggers Loxone in to arming or disarming the alarm.

It works, and is what the client wanted here, but it does have the potential to easily be tampered with if you had an electronics smart intruder. It certainly wouldn't classify as an alarm for insurance purposes.

I was originally looking at a Gira Keyless In solution: https://katalog.gira.de/en_UK/suche.html?m=ns&search%5B%5D=code&cid=664757#n0. But it also holds the code in the keypad itself. I really liked the idea behind the RFID reader from Smartbusinesstools as you can program everything from within Loxone and even create a pincode per user and some basic reports.

Hi,  I bought a nice weatherproof sealed keypad on Ebay similar to what DavidL posted.  It looks like all or most RFID readers use the Wiegand protocol (whatever that is).  I bought a Wiegand to RS232 converter board  from these people:  https://www.rfideas.com/products/converters/wiegand-serial  and an RS232 extension from Loxone.  The board was straight forward to hook up and everything works perfectly.

Now instead of having the keypad be the brain, the keypad is simply a keypad sending all signals to Loxone and I made the software in Loxone to decode the keypad and / or the RFID reads.  This way I can program new ID's and disable old ID's remotely.

This goes a bit beyond my technical skills unfortunately. Or do you perhaps have a step by step manual?

To be honest, I do not mind to pay extra if a ready to use solution is available such as Smartbusinesstools had. Therefore I was keeping an eye on their website for the past year but sofar it didn't have any news on successors.

[tkn]

Perfect timing on this discussion as I was just looking at door stations. I did not know that about the Gira which was what I was planning on using as well.

We have a gate and a door and the plan is to have our code open both but a code just open the gate into the courtyard for deliveries. We'd also like time limited codes restricted to certain times and days for maids, etc.

The biggest issue is the Gira is attractive (especially the 106) and most of the other ones are pretty ugly for the front of the house. Now I need to go back and look for another solution.

[DavidL]

Its worth noting, that in a lot of cases, Wiegand RFID keypads will only submit the RFID code over the Wiegand protocol. If you use the keypad element of that interface, this won't get submitted via the Wiegand protocol. This was certainly the case for the 2 seperate keypads I tried.

Maybe Deac99 could link to a keypad that they used which submitted both the keypad code and the RFID tag over Wiegand?

David

[Deac99]

Wow, apparently I "Lucked Out" in getting my RFID keypad.  I got the keypad 3 or 4 years ago on ebay.  I looked at my history but it does not go back that far.  Looking on ebay for a match I cannot find an exact match but the attached photo is one that looks identical except mine does not have the door bell button.  I'm pretty sure this is the same supplier that I got it from.  Hope this helps.

[Ewoud]

Thank you all for your reactions. Unfortunately still not what I am looking for. Keypads like DavidL and Deac99 mention are truly outside keypads and not that visual attractive for inside use. Also now that I am thinking of it, how can you see if for example a window in room 3 is still open. A traditional alarm keypad has a display telling you a window in room 3 is still open which is the reason you cannot set the alarm. As far as I know of, only the app can tell you that. Or in my situation I have 2 zones. Sometimes when I leave home I only want to set the alarm for 1 zone and sometimes for 2 zones. 

I get the idea of an iButton but it would be perfect if Loxone comes up with a more traditional keypad with display and an iButton reader.

In other words, I still do not know which road to take.

[smartbusinesstools.be]

Ewoud

We have been too busy with other projects, but we have some projects coming up in the next months that require a similar solution, so we will start doing more research.
Beyond the technical requirements, many people want different design looks, making it much more difficult to find a commercially viable product.

If we offer a solution, it must allow changing/assigning/validating pin codes for multiple users or functions, all from within the Loxone app, either via direct communication of individual key presses and all processing in Loxone, or controlling the keypad via an API. Furthermore, we also want it to be a secure RFID reader, i.e. not just reading the serial number from the token, but writing/reading our own encrypted information to a secured sector of a token, also controlled from the Loxone app.

A simple solution which we often implement is not to use a 10-keys keypad but something else like the Loxone Touch buttons which can be seen as a 5-keys keypad. In the Loxone app, you can set one or multiple variable length codes or patterns.

We also often do the arming of the alarm system automatically, when your system has the sensors and logic to know when the house is empty.

Disarming could also be done automatically on a schedule and/or first entrance, but is more secure going in pre-alarm and requiring the code to be entered by a person inside the house.

[Ewoud]

Thanks for your reply. Good to read that are going to do more research in the next months. Hopefully you will find a commercially interesting solution. Can you keep me/us updated?

Op zaterdag 16 september 2017 11:03:02 UTC+2 schreef smartbusinesstools.be:

[Bartel Eerdekens]

And then came Loxone itself with a solution:

https://www.loxone.com/enen/webshop/nfc-code-touch/

Looks (very) nice though! Probably going to install (a few) when they are out (12.12.2017).

[Harry Phelps]

It looks very nice, how much is it?

[Ewoud]

This sure looks good. I couldn't imagine that Loxone wouldn't come up with a solution themselves. Lots of people must have the same issues. Looks like this is going to be under my Christmas tree :)

[smartbusinesstools.be]

Finally, the access control product  many of our customers were waiting for.

Users, access rights, pin codes, one-time pin codes, secure sector RFID, NFC, configurable from the app.

Already ordered. As a gold partner, and specializing in access control solutions,  I hope we will get them sooner than 12/12 to start testing.

We will put up a FAQ on our website with more details about use, use cases, installation, token compatibility, and periphery products.

[Ewoud]

Looking forward to that. Please post a link once the FAQ is up and running. 

Small question already. At the moment I have KNX Twisted Pair wiring running through my whole house. Is it possible to use that KNX wire for the Tree solution?

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 15 November 2017 09:35:42 UTC, smartbusinesstools.be wrote:

We will put up a FAQ on our website with more details about use, use cases, installation, token compatibility, and periphery products.

 

Looks good.  When Loxone put out a product they seem to get them mostly right. 

My concerns

- weatherproofing.  Described as splash resistant yet it's for outdoor use. 

- use in a city - vandalism?  glass front?

- 

[smartbusinesstools.be]

KNX cable has 4 wires so yes: you can use Red+Black for the Tree Bus and Yellow/White for the 24VDC power Tree bus devices require separately from the bus.

If you want to keep KNX devices on that line, then you can just use the Yellow/White for the 24VDC power supply and buy the Air version of the keypad, keeping full funcionality.

[smartbusinesstools.be]

Already looking for a nice anti-theft / weather-proofing plate.

Hope they will add it to the Intercom + sell a cover plate similar to the Intercom 

[Ewoud]

Thanks for the reply. Fortunately I have seperate KNX wiring for the keypads. They are not connected to the bus. They go straight back to my installation. Thanks to your reply I now know that I can use the 4 wires for the keypads.

Op vrijdag 17 november 2017 13:57:28 UTC+1 schreef smartbusinesstools.be:

[tkn]

I would love a solution that looked like the Gira System 106 - camera, keypad, intercom, etc...

But I am very happy they finally have a keypad.

[RSin]

Anyone had a play with the NFC Code yet?

Is it any good?

Is there a way to hardwire it i.e. not air or tree?

Thanks.