Controle dimmer with potentiometer

[Collieman]

Hi!

How would I control my dimmer extension with a potentiometer?

I bought this potentiometer:
https://www.thpg.de/en/electronic-potentiometer-porcelain.html

My thoughts so far are next:

- Wire a 10v current to one side of the potentiometer.
- Wire the other side of the dimmer to an Analogue Input.
- Somehow monitor the current value that is measured on the Analogue Input and convert it to a Dimmer value. (0 volt being dimmer off / 10 volt being full lights)

Can someone point me in the good direction please about how I go for that 3e step.

Thanks a lot!

[Jonathan Dixon]

The linked product is not a conventional potentiometer.

Normally you wire a passive potentiometer (or other variable resistor,  such as a thermistor) in series with a bias resistor as a voltage divider, so e.g. putting 24V across the circuit creates a variable voltage on the center tap of the divider.

This device is something else though, as apparently it takes 230V AC input and generates a 1-10V output.  You really need to get the installation instructions/ wiring diagram for this specific product to see how to install it.

You then will need to map 1-10V on the analogue input to 0-100% but that's easily done in Loxone config

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[Collieman]

Hi Joth, thanks for the answer.

You seem to be right about the potentiometer needing 230V AC. 

The problem is I don't have 230V AC in my walls, only CAT-7.

When I am home tonight I take a look inside the box to take a better look at the diagram.

Would any of the following devices solve my problem where I want to put a 10v signal on it and get a variable 0 - 10v back from it?

https://www.thpg.de/en/switch-systems/porcelain-switch-series/dimmer-and-special-devices/

Thanks!

[Collieman]

Thinking further about it, what would be ideal is a product like the one I have but instead of taking 230V AC as voltage it would take 24V.... and output a 1 - 10V signal.

Does anyone know something like this exists?

So this one but in 24V version...

https://www.thpg.de/en/electronic-potentiometer-porcelain.html

Thanks!

[Simon Still]

even if you can get a 1-10v signal from it, isn't your issue that you lose any ability to control through Loxone.  effectively you've created a dumb circuit as there's no way for Loxone to override the input from the potentiometer.

If you want a 'tacticle' dimmer don't you really need a 'switch/control/dial' that just gives one signal (+) when turned in one direction and - when turned in the other?

I think this company may make HA compatible"retro"  rotary switches - https://www.classiccomfort.co.uk/types/rotary-switch-bakelite-switch-surface-mounted-high-humidity-environments-electrical-switches/

[Jonathan Dixon]

Yes good point, last time this came up someone pointed out that an continuous rotation potentiometer can be used for this. Nice thing then is fast Vs slow rotation of the pot can adjust light level quickly or slowly, but without an end stop there's no issue if the circuit also gets controlled from elsewhere or through automation. Often used for the main big volume knob on AV amplifier.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/374040/is-there-something-such-as-an-infinite-potentiometer

I'm not sure how I'd best interpret the output in Loxone though. 
And Getting one built into the right aesthetic housing is an exercise for the reader 😅

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[Simon Still]

There are a few smart 'knobs' for HA (and I've see a few for PCs).  

Phillips Hue - https://www.philips-hue.com/en-gb/p/hue-smart-button/8719514342668

Tuya Zigbee smart knob - https://www.fruugo.co.uk/tuya-zigbee-smart-knob-switch-wireless-scene-switch-button-controller-battery-powered-automation-scenario-smart-life-app/p-205908018-438160055?

TP Link Tapo - https://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-Tapo-Sensitivity-Installation-S200B/dp/B0BFBZSNCD/?th=1

integrating those to Loxone and matching a particular  aesthetic is another matter.

[Collieman]

Thanks all for thinking with me.

Simon, for what is HA the abbreviation? What does it mean?

I realise indeed that the loxone app and my hardware switch will soon be out of sync. I don't really care a whole lot as I hardly ever use the loxone app to control lighting. However if a brand would make the effort I am sure they can come up with an indefinitive turning wheel to both left and right. Where turning left would output a series of - signals, and turn right would output a series of + signals...  + and - both connected on its propper digital input. This should solve the out of sync problem, not?

But that doesn't seem to exist.

I really want a turning old-scool knob as I live in an old home and I want this old look.

Those smart knobs might be a plan B yes, and build them in an old looking dimmer.

I saw this one on the internet:

https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/68389/files/418435029/eco-dim12-010v-dimmer-switch-user-manual-2022.pdf

If you see the connection diagram under the title "Only use 0~10V dimming control" I see this dimmer doesn't need power. Can this be correct?

I don't get how it can send a pulse on + and - if it doesn't have power on its own.

Lots of questions :)

[Collieman]

I think I indeed need to look into this continuous rotation potentiometer you mention Simon. Thanks!

[David Wallis]

Not sure if it’s been said but you could also look at a rotary encoders, it would need additional hardware to interface though.

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[Duncan]

for a traditional push on/off, rotate to dim/brighten solution for loxone (and relatively cheap) i am using zigbee rotary wall dimmers

1) loxberry with the zigbee2mqtt plugin linked to your loxone

2) a supported usb zigbee stick  -  ive used https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gateway-EFR32MG21-Coordinator-Assistant-Zigbee2MQTT-Black/dp/B0BG1LJ687/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=KF7Z0NG9GME4&keywords=zigbee+usb&qid=1695640938&sprefix=zigbee+usb%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1 around £25

3) zigbee wall dimmer - https://www.amazon.co.uk/iolloi-Multi-Way-trailing-compatible-guarantee/dp/B08VJ4CVWZ/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=VLOWL47GEKQ9&keywords=zigbee%2Bdimmer%2Bpush&qid=1695641093&sprefix=zigbee%2Bdimmer%2Bpush%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-3-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

this is trailing edge, 5-250w, works well with the leds ive tried so far

ive removed the dimmer module from the plastic plate and replaced my existing push/rotate dimmer on its metal mounting plate, they all seem to have the same spindle and the old brushed steel knob fit the new zigbee dimmer module so looks identical

4) link the wall zigbee dimmer to zigbee2mqtt in the loxberry

5) link the mqtt entries of the dimmer into loxone

6) the dimmer controls the main light circuit from the wall switch directly with the push on/off, rotate to dim/brighten, but now loxone knows the on/off state and brightness, so you can control this from loxone lighting moods as well eg all-off etc, and ive linked the lighting module to this plugin zigbee dimmer: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Candeo-Dimming-Compatible-Assistant-dimming/dp/B09627LM8V/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2UJUZTRPD16J1&keywords=zigbee+plugin+dimmer&qid=1695641321&sprefix=zigbee+plugin+dimmer%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-5

so now the dimmer can also control other floor/table plugin lamps with its on/off / dim functions via the loxone lighting module

it just needs a bit of imaginative loxone programming to glue it all together

result is a very high WAF as there is no change from the previous passive push/rotate dimming, just with added extras

[Duncan]

the rotation dimmer works by linking the zigbee/mqtt brightness value to the master brightness input of the lighting block

the zigbee on/off transfers the mood number (0 or 1) to the mood input, therefore cycling between dim and off - you could set this up with a radio button to choose a mood value that is transferred,  thereby have multiple selectable moods and i should probably add a multi-click as well....

the zigbee brightness virtual input is divided by 2 so max 50 as a MBr value of 50 sets the LC1 output to 100%

[Collieman]

HI Duncan,

Thanks for all the info about zigbee! I never heart about it.

The problem I see with it (in my case) is, I don't seem to find a zigbee dimmer (the knob) working on 24v. 

I only have 24v in my wall.

I have a Cat 7 cable going to my loxone, thats all.

Do you think zigbee is still an option for me?

Thanks for all the effort trying to help!

[Collieman]

Thanks to a suggestion above I was looking into rotary encoders. 

Since they exist on 24v and they only need 3 signal cables it caught my interest.

I would run them over my cat7 cable and do the processing server side. So not in the wall but in the cabinet.

Is there anyway I can write logic in loxone?

I am a programmer but have a hard time understanding the concept of loxone.

Ideally I connect the encoder to 3 loxone inputs and start comparing the signals to see if the knob is turned left or right.

Basically the logic this guy shows at the end of this very instructive video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4BbSzJ-hz4

Can I do this in loxone?

[Duncan]

i havnt seen any 24v zigbee dimmers, but there is every chance that a 240v one will work at 24v - the only way is to buy one and try it ;-)

[Duncan]

you could use this  - rotary encoder to shelly, and then shelly to loxone directly or shelly to loxone via mqtt

https://www.instructables.com/Shelly-Dimmer-Wall-Switch-With-Rotary-Knob-and-Hom/

duncan

[Duncan]

https://auroralighting.com/gb/trade/productdetail/au-a1zbr1gw

battery powered zigbee rotary dimmer - might be an easier solution rather than knitting your own....

[Thijs Heijms]

Hi Collieman, and all others. 

How did it work out? Did you also try the 230V part you suggest at first? Because thats what i am interested in. 

How would it work, it has no neutral or ground connection.

thanks in advance, Thijs

Op dinsdag 26 september 2023 om 12:11:23 UTC+2 schreef Duncan:

[Collieman]

Hi Thijs

I didn't try 230v as I don't have 230v in my walls, only 24v.

For the moment this project is on hold because I am concentrating on other things.

What I will first try when I am back on it is use a rotary encoder and connect it to an arduino. I do the processing of the encoder (left / right / click) on the arduino and have the arduino talk to my loxone.

The advantage of a rotary encoder is it doesn't have a stop left or right so it can sync nice with the dim value currently kept in loxone, so the app still works.

I want to avoid too much wifi in my house.