Distribution Panel - Inspiration Please!

[Aaron]

Hoping to understand how others have tackled the housing and integration of their Loxone system in their installations please.

I know Loxone recommend the Future Automation LXN enclosures which I believe are 17^th Edition compliant (UK) but at £720 for the largest, I wonder if my budget is best spent elsewhere. I have also seen installations including RCDs/RCBOs on boards (presumably fire resistant) but are these compliant?

Previously, I used Loxone with mainly the retrofitted Air products in an old cottage. I just housed the miniserver and Air extension in an empty consumer unit with the power supplied from an ordinary wall outlet. My new house requires a full rewire and thus provides further opportunities to integrate Loxone, however, as C16 Listed farmhouse, the priority will be to limit the amount of wiring and use AIR devices, hence, I believe an LXN5 may be overkill.

The new consumer unit will have RCBOs on each circuit (where applicable). I’m leaning towards metal enclosure for circuit protection on the 230v side (as per regulations) and a separate metal enclosure for the Loxone and 24v components (supplied from its own RCBO/RCD with Meanwell power supply with UPS). This is cheaper and provides physical separation, but obviously creates limitations in itself. Perhaps a third consumer unit between the two providing 24v switched 230v relays would work – but then is the now smaller extra expense best invested in the LXN5.

Not necessarily looking for a complete answer, just inspiration and suitable products please!

Just to note, I’m not an electrician but have one lined up to check and commission; he’s just not a home automation guru.

Thanks!

[John Verdicchio]

Here is a picture of my work-in-progress system. I've used RCBO on every circuit - no reason not to. I recently gained the certificate and qualification so I can sign off electrical installations. Cost me £1700 + time. It does mean I can sign off my own electrical work. This was actually cheaper than getting an electrician to do the second fix and inspection.

I've used the LXN4 cabinet ~ £500 and I believe it has enough expansion potential to take everything I want. I have the voltage segregation required; 240V on the right, 12/24V on the left. The two black boxes on the right are NJD12 12 channel DMX controllers.

What have I learnt?

• Well, the cabinet is the same depth as a standard consumer unit so very deep transformers ( two boxes with 24.2 and 12.1 glowing on them) can't be DIN rail mounted AND have the cabinet door close. I'm currently investigating alternate methods of mounting these transformers rather than their own DIN rail clips.
• The Loxone "rail" is too close to the main RCBO rail so making working on the wiring difficult. The Loxone stuff is going to move.
• You don't have to install ring mains - radials work just as well with less messing about have to do the return leg. Just remember 20A switch, not 32A. There is also less testing involved in a radial over a ring.
• Don't under estimate the power requirements for LED strip lighting. A typical 5m RGBW strip draws around 80W. At 12V that is 6.66A Many 240V->12V transformers don't go above 100W. Also true for 24V ones. So if you want 4 of these strips you're probably looking at 4 transformers. I have 150W supplies, hence the "deep" comment.
• I am going to need a cover over the front of the wiring above the cabinet. The regs state that the top of the cabinet must be IP4X with all the wires in as well. "IP4X protects the cables ... not only against the ingress of a 1.0mm diameter wire or greater" . That is a small hole/gap to attempt to close.
  

[DavidL]

An example of mine using an LXN4 enclosure. Just goes to show you use the space up pretty quickly.

The DIN rails can be removed from their mountings, the mountings removed and fixed directly to the back of the enclosure. Thus allowing 100mm DIN products such as the weidmuller connection terminals or deeper PSU's.

I always opt for the future automation enclosures. They're neat and provide for cable routing to keep separation as much as possible. Combined with split compartment trunking, and the access holes in the panel, this can be a very neat installation.

David

On Friday, 12 January 2018 07:40:36 UTC, Aaron wrote:

[John Verdicchio]

David
That is a work of art. Gives me something to aspire to. Thanks for the tip on removing the DIN rails.

[Aaron]

Gents

Many thanks for the pictures, inspiration and guidance!

May I ask where you both got your LXN's from and if you would recommend a brand of RCBO? They get expensive rather quickly!

Your DMX dimmer and termination solutions are also interesting to see in action, topics of other threads though I suspect.

cheers

Aaron

[John Verdicchio]

Rococo systems. Paid £500 for LNX4. You may want to go for the LNX5 - depends on the size of your project.

On the RCBO front, buy from someone you trust. If these go wrong you're in trouble. I spend about £14-18 per unit. I'd only say buy all the same model or it will look a little odd , just like mine set does.

[DavidL]

I order direct from Future Automation as a trade customer.

The RCBO's I use also come from a trade only seller. They're double pole, but are the same size as an MCB, which makes fitting to existing consumer units incredibly nice due to the space not being eaten up.

[Duncan]

whats the make and model of rcbo that you have used?

[DavidL]

Duncan, These are from SBS. A one man outfit who designs, imports, tests and sells these products.

They're extremely cost effective when compared to a large brand of RCBO, and he makes up the busbars for them to suit your installation. I can send you the contact details if you'd like?

David

[James Mitchelmore]

Hello David. I'd be interested in the details of the rcbo supplier too.

Thanks
James

[Duncan]

yes please - ive used rcbo only installs as well, but the usual ones are large and expensive

[Simon Still]

Google gave me www.sbstradesales.co.uk/

Those RCBO's look good.  No flying earth lead either so much neater to install 

 

[DavidL]

Thats the one.

[Andy Wain]

John

To get around the IP rating for the top of the panel why not used some big trunking say 50x50

Andy

[Edoardo Viscomi]

This is what I used for my install seen below.

https://www.mylights.co.uk/p/DISTBOARDACCESSORIES/Crabtree-Rowboard-5-x-18-Module-Surface-Din-Rail-Enclosure/18AS5

[Dan Orange]

we've used Future Automation and ABB enclosures in the past.  ABB is  a much reduced cost and if no MCBs/RCBO's are installed then it meets the regs.

[Kevp]

After seeing those RCBOs on here I thought I would try a set of them on a panel that I recently installed at a house. 

I mainly like them for how neat and tidy they make the panel. I will definitely be using them again in the future.

David who sells the RCBOs also seems to be a top bloke and very knowledgeable.

[Rob_in]

These look a lot like the Legrand modules I have. You can mail order these from many places in France:

Please excuse my hand drawn labels ;)

Robin

[Aaron]

The CrabTree Loadstar RowBoard looks like a good alternative at £118gbp! What would I be missing over the much more expensive but more specific Future Automation LXN enclosure please? 

[John Verdicchio]

From the UK regs about consumer units (17th edition revision 3):

"Under the new addition of Regulation 421.1.201. as followed:

421.1.201   Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall:

1. have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or
2. be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with Regulation 132.12"

So this unit doesn't meet BS EN 61439-3.

Also, the top of consumer unit needs to be IP4X, this unit is IP3X which is not suitable either.

The up shoot is you couldn't use this as a consumer unit but only to house your Loxone goodies. However, you can use the LXN enclosure as a consumer unit. If cost is your main driver then you could easily buy a the Crabtree and a consumer unit for 1/2 the price of the cheapest LXN unit.

Personally, I think the LXN enclosure keeps everything in one place and keeps it all looking neat.

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 17:47:50 UTC, John Verdicchio wrote:

The up shoot is you couldn't use this as a consumer unit but only to house your Loxone goodies. However, you can use the LXN enclosure as a consumer unit. If cost is your main driver then you could easily buy a the Crabtree and a consumer unit for 1/2 the price of the cheapest LXN unit.

Personally, I think the LXN enclosure keeps everything in one place and keeps it all looking neat.

I've always been a bit puzzled by people making Loxone their consumer unit.  Most of my CU circuits don't have any Loxone controlled devices.  Of maybe 10 breakers I think Loxone only affects two lighting circuits and the 'House infra' circuit that powers Loxone itself (plus alarms).  There's very little 240V in my LXN cabinet at all. 

[Martyn]

Dont use consumer units, most can only accomadate two full size extensions, they will be used outside the scope of the type testing so also fall foul of the regs.

Use a panel, somthing like the schneider s3D range

https://www.schneider-electric.com/en/product/NSYS3DCD10620/s3dcd-disc.-pl-d-w-o-pl.-c%2C-w-o-cgp.-h1000xw600xd200mm.h39%2C37xw31%2C50xd15%2C75-inch

I have used the 1000x800 units, solid, complete with backplate infinitely customisable, regs compliant enclosure.

[DavidL]

You should also factor in separation of different voltage grade cables. For instance, extra low voltage cables, such as cat5/6/7 shouldn't be run next to low voltage cables (anything supplying voltage under 1000V ac).

This is reference in BS7671 under section 528.1

This is where the future automation products work well, as you can easily separate types of cable per side.

I'd suggest shopping around also, some of the figures mentioned on here are significantly more than I've ever paid for their products.

[Rob]

I'm about to start a Loxone installation and also thought the Future Automation enclosures were a bit expensive and, to an extent a bit industrial looking for a domestic environment, even if installed say in a utility room.

Having looked about for an alternative I wondered about a Schneider Pragma as in link below but not clear after reading other posts here whether it would comply as I will have some mains circuits and MCB's in it, although the main house CU is remaining.

https://www.schneider-electric.com/en/product/PRA20424/pragma-surface-enclosure---ip30---4-x-24-modules---without-door/

Would welcome any views from those of you who are much more knowledgeable on electrical regulations than me.

Cheers

[John Verdicchio]

It has plastic front and back so fails the "non combustible material" clause relating to consumer units. I realise that not all plastic is combustible but do you want to argue the case in a court of law?
It meets the IP4X rating with the doors on - tick.
So your only discussion point is whether it will actually be classified as a consumer unit or as a cabinet on the wall that just happens to have all the characteristics of a CU. If it walks looks like a duck and sounds like a duck...

[Rob]

Thanks John

Think it's probably a duck.......!!

so will take a look at the Schneider S3D range which seem to be all metal but don't look that bad.

Rob

[Kevp]

Hi Rob,

Where abouts are you based?

Thanks.

[Rob]

Near Gatwick, why?

[Rob]

Thinking about this a bit more it occurs to me that, if the regs say that RCBO's, MCB's and associated mains wiring must be fitted in a metal enclosure why are there so many plastic enclosures designed and for sale for this type of equipment and my local electrical supplier has plastic domestic CU's........???

I'm not a qualified electrician but it just seems a bit confusing to me. My own house has been built with a plastic CU and all the usual gubbins inside.

[Kevp]

I might of been able to help you out with a future automation panel if you was not so far away.

Regarding plastic panels. I think you are fine so long as there is no switchgear inside.
Place MCB or rcbos for the loxone stuff in a proper metal consumer unit and then just feed into the plastic panel containing the loxone gear.

[Rob]

Whereabouts are you Kev, I get around a bit...!!

So, if my enclosure only has Loxone kit, PSU's, terminal blocks etc (some of which is 240v) it's fine for it to be plastic as long as the RCBO's etc are housed somewhere else.

[Kevp]

Hi Rob,

Have a read of this, https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/issues/55/new-non-combustible-enclosure-requirement-for-consumer-units/

The paragraph under "Similar switchgear assemblies" I suppose you could interpret it both ways. If you can get a metal panel then its just something less to worry about.

I will email you direct later to see if we can possibly sort something.

Best Regards

[Rob]

Cheers Kev, very interesting reading. As you say, sticking with a metal enclosure just seems simpler to avoid any potential issues.
Rob

[RSinn]

keV, drop me a line if Rob doesn't want the enclosure. I'm building mine soon.cheers.

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 19:21:28 UTC+1, Kevp wrote:

The paragraph under "Similar switchgear assemblies" I suppose you could interpret it both ways. If you can get a metal panel then its just something less to worry about.

I used the 'pre-17th edition' version of the future automation box which doesn't have a front cover though fitted a metal CU.  Most of the risk in the CU is because of the high currents flowing - it's very unlikely you'll have many (or any) high current circuits within your Loxone install.  My electrician effectively treated my Loxone install as an 'appliance'.  It's powered through a freestanding UPS that's powered by a 13A plug in a socket. 

[DavidL]

If anyones interested in ordering a Future Automation panel, get in touch.

Simon, you can order the new front door to make the older style panel comply with current regulations if required.

[Simon Still]

On Friday, 30 March 2018 10:19:49 UTC+1, DavidL wrote:

If anyones interested in ordering a Future Automation panel, get in touch.

Simon, you can order the new front door to make the older style panel comply with current regulations if required.

That's interesting - Presumably requires drilling to take the hinges?

I'm not sure what it achieves really given the door is vented - it doesn't strike me that it would contain a fire significantly better than the first design.  

[DavidL]

Yeah indeed, holes need drilling. If you do want one, I have one that I bought with the intention of installing on my home project.

[RSin]

regarding Schneider S3D wall mounted enclosures i'm wondering how best to configure it.

1. do you bother with the mounting plate or fix directly to the back of the box?

2. has anyone successfully fitted components to the door? I presume you attach some profile to the door and ensure you use flex in a conduit as it goes past the hinge. Anything else to be careful with?

(I noticed somewhere that you can fit to the door so may put some LED drivers on the door to use up some of the 300mm depth and keep the size of the overall box down.)

anyone got a photo of these enclosures being used?

thanks.

[Bayden]

heres mine, still a work in progress:

i just used a cheap 19" server enclosure and cut din rail to fit.

make sure you allow plenty of room for trunking, as you can see my phase is pretty tightly packed. i used 25mm / 1 inch but prob shouldve gone double that

also you can see ive had to put the miniserver on a lean to fit the ethernet cable ... ill have to find a right-angled cable to fit

i used 2 way terminals. the tradeoff between these and the (very expensive) 8 way terminals is space. you can see my distribution on the bottom row, the earth and neutral are pretty much the same but mounted on bars behind everything else ( at the back of the server cabinet). ive got access to both sides which is probably not typical

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 8:40:36 PM UTC+13, Aaron wrote:

Hoping to understand how others have tackled the housing and integration of their Loxone system in their installations please.

I know Loxone recommend the Future Automation LXN enclosures which I believe are 17^th Edition compliant (UK) but at £720 for the largest, I wonder if my budget is best spent elsewhere. I have also seen installations including RCDs/RCBOs on boards (presumably fire resistant) but are these compliant?

Previously, I used Loxone with mainly the retrofitted Air products in an old cottage. I just housed the miniserver and Air extension in an empty consumer unit with the power supplied from an ordinary wall outlet. My new house requires a full rewire and thus provides further opportunities to integrate Loxone, however, as C16 Listed farmhouse, the priority will be to limit the amount of wiring and use AIR devices, hence, I believe an LXN5 may be overkill.

The new consumer unit will have RCBOs on each circuit (where applicable). I’m leaning towards metal enclosure for circuit protection on the 230v side (as per regulations) and a separate metal enclosure for the Loxone and 24v components (supplied from its own RCBO/RCD with Meanwell power supply with UPS). This is cheaper and provides physical separation, but obviously creates limitations in itself. Perhaps a third consumer unit between the two providing 24v switched 230v relays would work – but then is the now smaller extra expense best invested in the LXN5.

Not necessarily looking for a complete answer, just inspiration and suitable products please!

Just to note, I’m not an electrician but have one lined up to check and commission; he’s just not a home automation guru.

Thanks!

[Aaron]

Thanks to all the advice received on this thread and forum, I have now completed the majority of my cabinet so thought its about time to share the results of your inputs.

Still some tidying, connection of sensors and a few circuits to go but these will be completed inline with the refurbishments rather than rushed in now.

The biggest headache were the terminals; trying to find the best features and availability for the money. I wanted to go for a single brand but compromised with a selection of Pheonix Contact and Wago. Personally, I prefer the Wago as they seem more robust and are significantly cheaper!