Loxone/Mains Wiring Advice

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SteveJ

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Feb 28, 2022, 5:27:36 AM2/28/22
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Hello,

I wonder if anyone can offer any advice around ideal mains wiring schemes for part of my Installation.  Apologies for the long post.....

As i'm part way through a total refurb of the house and havn't got as far as sorting out my main cabinet yet, my Loxone installation is currently functional but existing as a jumble of modules and wiring in a pile of the floor in the loft.  Far from ideal in every way.

I'm now completing the first fix on an addition to the house which has 6  internal lighting circuits and several outside lights and mains PIRs.  This will be controlled by a Loxone extension (the old kind) and a DMX mains dimmer mounted locally to the new part of the house.  There will also be both mains and 24v coupling relays and some other bits and pieces - hopefully all mounted in a double row consumer unit (no space for a full cabinet here)

Now I come to thinking on more detail about how to connect all this up, I realise I don't really know the best way to proceed.  My dilemma is this - id always imagined that I'd run Loxone PSUs from a dedicated 3A radial circuit on the main Consumer unit, and another 6A radial for internal G/F lights and another 6A Radial for outside lights. (these radials would also feed lights etc controlled by other loxone components in the main cabinet(once I have one !) 

This would mean 3 incoming mains feeds to my new consumer unit, each powering a number of the devices/circuits in the new CU.  This seems to messy in that there is no clean way to provide local isolation from the mains - short of having 3 different D.P. switches in the new CU, one for each of the radial circuits.  

To make local isolation neater, it would seem like the best way to go is to run LoxoneExtension PSU+InternalLights+Outside Lights all from one 6A radial from the main CU - but this removes decreases discrimination (if a fault on and O/S light trips the RCBO, then all the internal lights go out as well) and gives less flexibility in isolation generally.

Any advice welcome on how anyone else has approached mains wiring for remote mounted Loxone extensions etc.

Steve.

Loxone Webshop @ SavvySpaces

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Feb 28, 2022, 6:24:59 AM2/28/22
to SteveJ, Loxone English

Hi Steve,

Your first thought was correct, You will need to run a dedicated circuit for each area/service of the house.

Running a single circuit for everything in the panel would be a regs deviation for the wiring within the house (314 of Bs7671) but more that that it would cause problems in panel wiring too.

Most 'whole house' panels have multiple circuits, this is the norm. In terms of Isolation there is no requirement to have a single point of isolation for the panel domestically as the house main switch would satisfy this requirement.

There are multiple ways of achieving isolation with a single door isolator if that's your design intent, or alternatively you could run your circuits from the consumer unit to 20A DP switches adjacent to your panel and use one per circuit.

Some people put circuit breakers inside the panels but this is a huge PITA with regards to compliance, Can you test the panel to 16,000 Amps? the usual answer is no and neither can I, and that's just one legal requirement for that route.

The panel you build will in reality be most likely built to BS EN 60204, this means that you design and specify how it works and more importantly, how it fails. there is no 16kA testing requirement here, just don't build a 'consumer unit in it...

If you are a way away from your consumer unit, you could site a small local consumer unit next to your panel?

Good Luck

Martyn

SavvySpaces.co.uk

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Steve Joyner

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Feb 28, 2022, 6:44:10 AM2/28/22
to Loxone Webshop @ SavvySpaces, Loxone English
Thanks for the advice Martin, very much appreciated, I’ve no real experience of panel building - other than a lot of googling :)

I take your point about not building a consumer unit inside the panel -  Do DP switches (opposed to Circuit breakers) within the panel cause the same or similar compliance issues ?

Ie. Could I put in three of these in the panel to allow local isolation:


Or if my intent is provide local isolation of each of the three radial circuits - does this have to be outside the panel ?

Regards
Steve

David

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Mar 1, 2022, 2:08:21 AM3/1/22
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For reference, the range of Future Automation panels do have the testing on them to comply with the necessary regulations.
Their compliance can be found here:


They aren’t cheap enclosures, but you pay for what you get.
Various people on this forum can sell you these as approved resellers, including me.

My question regarding your installation, is do you have the requisite experience and know how to wire this correctly and safely?
How are you complying  with the building regulations in order to sign this off?

David

Loxone Webshop @ SavvySpaces

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Mar 2, 2022, 9:54:58 AM3/2/22
to da...@dles.uk, Loxone English

Hi David,

Looks like from you're email address you are probably an electrician, won't teach you to suck eggs :)

I was not saying the FA panels don't comply, in fact they are very good. one of the biggest misconceptions is that BS7671 Applies to these panels at all.

FA updated their enclosures to be 'compatible' with the 18th edition when the requirement for all metal enclosure became a requirement for consumer units and 'similar', that aside they still needed to meet the enclosure regulations - which they do. In truth every 'new' requirement of the 18th edition already existed in other relevant regulation.

FA provide a DoC for their enclosures, but that's the end of that story.

Building regulations and BS7671 do not apply to a panel itself, as you know both obviously do apply to the installation overall and fixed wiring.

The panel is a product, this is made up of equipment from many manufacturers. Once those separate products are assembled together they become a new product in its own right that requires certification and UKCA marking (outside of BR or BS7671).

Think of it like a washing machine, you buy your Hotpoint machine from Curry's and you plug it in, I don't know anyone that gives any thought to the certification of the machine when they buy one, it is just implicit through expectation I suppose.

A central heating timer or a nest thermostat may be a better example though, we connect our wires to these devices without a second thought for their internal gubbins, they too are products, obviously fully certified and we wouldn't want to make them ourselves, well I wouldn't ha!

Future Automation point out in the link you provided that section 522 requires all 'equipment' comply with it's relevant product standard. This is essentially saying you cannot install a piece of electrical equipment (for the purposes of BS7671) which is not certified.

536.4.203 is quite enlightening in relation to panels, especially the notes.

I regularly get told, 'people don't care about the standards or the legal obligations', and that's fine, people do things in their own home for all sorts of reasons, I can guarantee my own home would not get a UKCA tick ha!  As a company though it's a different story. Customers have the expectation of things being as they should.

That said, When was the last time you went to any domestic install and thought 'This is amazing'?

Cheers

Martyn

David

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Mar 3, 2022, 12:47:28 PM3/3/22
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Hello Martyn,

I suppose you could argue the case that a fabricated panel, i.e. a panel made of components from other manufacturers, isn't a "product" in its own right.
Sure, each item within that panel is most likely required to comply with UKCA (or CE where applicable) markings, but I wouldn't say someone making a panel for a customers home would need to have it certified or tested to gain a UKCA marking. My approach, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, is as long as every product used within that panel has the correct certification and is installed as per manufacturer guidelines, you're most likely going to be ok.

I think you mean Section 512, which as pointed out is ultimately making sure you're installing equipment that complies with external influences and conditions. 512.1.5 is probably most important to heed, and this is what Future Automation make reference to in their document. I suspect they note this due to the potential for a panel to exceed 70 degrees due to the enclosed nature of it.
You might notice in the document, FA mention that: "Future Automation enclosures are designed to house built-in circuit breakers and we have always recommended and supplied RCBOs for individual lighting modules. Where we supply protection devices (e.g. RCBO’s), we always use industry leading manufactures such as ABB and Schneider and ensure they adhere to the correct regulations and specifications."

536.4.203 is important to note, but the last line is important too: "If an assembly deviates from its original manufacturer’s instructions, or includes components not included in the original verification, the person introducing the deviation becomes the original manufacturer with the corresponding obligations."
This to me reads that if I'm deviating from anything a manufacturer suggests, I become the designer and take with it the responsibility. This is what happens when you make a panel (in my mind). For instance Future Automation aren't going to take responsibility for my panel if they have wired it themselves. Like yourself, I take all necessary precautions and design accordingly to take into account what is safe. I would never put a full consumer unit inside a panel, just the relevant RCBOs to power the devices inside that panel, and maybe some low current draw lighting circuits. Everything else stays outside inside it's own consumer unit.

My questions were more directed towards what appears to be a home owner with an interest doing their own wiring. Forums and online content are great, I'm all up for learning new things online. However, there needs to be a point where somethings maybe shouldn't be attempted.

David

Loxone Webshop @ SavvySpaces

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Mar 3, 2022, 4:58:44 PM3/3/22
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Hi David,

I think I would struggle to argue convincingly that a panel of the nature we are talking is not a product. The raft of regulation is mountainous.

Here is the .Gov


So the question then is, Is there relevant legislation?

Well in the UK the EMC Directive it the Electromagnetic Compatibility Regulations 2016 and the Electrical Equipment (safety) regulations 2016, both of which are indeed current legislation

So a quick look at EESR

I wont bore you with more of that!


512.1.5 is generally related to cables where, for example tri rated, has a higher temperature rating than permitted by the vast majority of terminals.

Basically don't run or fuse a tri rated cable at the current value from the datasheet its actual rating will be less than half that...

Again though the last paragraph and notes are heavily liability laden for some one who installs fixed equipment without manufacturer certification.

You definitely cannot let a panel exceed 70 degrees ambient in any normal installation, that would likely lead to catastrophic failure.

I did notice the statement of 'are designed to house built-in circuit breakers and we have always recommended and supplied RCBOs for individual lighting modules'

looks like they are referring to a specific product here, very sloppy wording but in truth their liability is minimal for enclosures. as soon as you put anything in it the law makes you the manufacturer and you responsible for producing new certification. I am not really familiar with their product line up and we don't use their 'Loxone' enclosures, they are generally too small and lack adequate space in the trunking, regs only permit a 55% fill factor for trunking and that's fairly hard to achieve in them.

As a qualified and insured, (Products, PLI, & PII) electrician there is nothing whatsoever to stop you UKCA marking your panels, the law does not require that you have them third party tested or certificated, just that you do actually design, test, certify, & mark them as such, I find the 'hardest' part is the paperwork, current Panel running at 120 pages plus for documentation, it all takes time.

Fully onboard with the last bit, I only post really to get people to think a little about this sort of thing before chucking a load of random bits in a box and at best invalidating their home insurance at worst causing a fire.

Cheers

Martyn

David

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Mar 3, 2022, 5:30:04 PM3/3/22
to Loxone English
Hello Martyn,

I don't think the UKCA advise website is very informative. I did have a read, but it wasn't very conclusive.
However, I did find this document, which appears to lean a little more closely to your side of the argument.
Page 7 details components and states: "If a GB importer brings in components for assembly into a final good, which is then marketed under their own name or trademark, the GB importer assumes the responsibilities of a manufacturer and must ensure UKCA compliance before making the completed good available on the GB market."


I could still argue this, just because I'm pedantic, that you're possibly not an importer (in this instance Loxone UK are, as are Future Automation UK). You're probably not rebranding or marking the final good either under your own name or trademark.
I feel it's counterintuitive to redo UKCA markings, when the actual manufacturers and importers have already done this step.
Anyway, that's the beauty of a discussion forum, no one has to agree totally on a subject matter.

David

Techdoctor

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Mar 5, 2022, 5:24:53 PM3/5/22
to Loxone English
It seems to me the UKCA is similar to the CE cert process. 
And takes me back to the days of X10 (anyone remember this) I developed a range of din rail X10 modules. What made these really different was the fact they had built in mcb's and filtering on the output to prevent noise being injected back into the mains. Each part had its own certification, but as my CE certification lawyer said. "Just because each part has a CE mark doesn't mean the final product is CE certifiable, since you could be using a part in a way it is not intended to be used. " I decided to go down the self cert route which was the easiest. But when I finally worked out the actual sale price of the modules I decided to take it no further. Who would buy X10 modules that where 20 to 30 euros more than the nearest competitor.

Roger Long

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Mar 14, 2022, 8:05:53 AM3/14/22
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Hi Martyn
I've just looked at the future automation cabinets and they are really expensive, even for the small ones. You mentioned you use a different one, which cabinets do you usually use?
Roger

SavvySpaces - Loxone Web Shop

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Mar 14, 2022, 8:57:03 AM3/14/22
to Roger Long, Loxone English
Hi Rodger, 

The FA Panels are fairly quick and easy so there is time savings there, you just cant get much in them, the wiring space hugely limits there usefulness for us. 

We almost alway build from scratch in Eldon MAS/MAD Enclosures. So much more flexible and overall easier on compliance.

Martyn

On 14 Mar 2022, at 12:05, Roger Long <rsl8...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Martyn

David Wallis

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Mar 14, 2022, 8:57:59 AM3/14/22
to SavvySpaces - Loxone Web Shop, Loxone English, Roger Long
I noticed the other day they now have a deeper range.

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