Planning stages - lots of questions.

[tkn]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the long post - but I am planning out home automation for a renovation that is about to start.

I like the idea of a wired, PLC solution so that led me to Loxone. But as I do my research, I am unsure whether it is really an all-encompassing solution for me as certain, essentially basic, functions are missing or seem a bit hacky. I am in the US - so this presents its own issues where products are unapproved for use in the US.

So here are the practical questions:

1. Outdoor lighting - I'd like to put in Hue or LIFX or Qube RGB bulbs outside just for color changing on holidays; I'd like them to also flash red if the alarm goes off for emergency services. - is that an option, or do I have to find something esoteric to link with Loxone? 
   
   
2. Security alarms - Abode has the option of monitoring on an as-needed basis. I would like this so I can go on vacation for a while and have it monitored. Also is there an option to report directly to emergency services?
   
   
3. Door locks - I want keypad deadbolts for my doors and garden gates. With logging and time-limited access codes (for maids, guests, etc). Is this something I can do? Or could I somehow hook in a Schlage or Yale lock? I don't want those iButtons since they are easily lost and/or copied.
   
   
4. HVAC control - how smart is the HVAC compared to an Ecobee or Nest? 
   
   
5. Sprinkler control - same question versus a Rain Machine? I don't mind scripting in moisture and rain sensors to control sprinklers, but can I have it rotate zones in repeated circles to ensure adequate absorption, etc?
   
   
6. IP cameras - Motion JPEG is pretty archaic. My plan is to have Dahua IP cameras multistreaming to an NVR in H265 and motion JPEG to Loxone.
   
   
7. Smoke/CO detectors - Any US available solutions? Any that report to the fire department? Can I integrate a Nest Protect?

And then there are the philosophical questions. I see some worrying signs about unneeded proprietary solutions and concerns about integration with a variety of products. Ones that should be "table stakes". So I thought I would ask some questions after searching. I'll divvy it up by function I am looking for.

1. Voice control - seriously is Alexa not going to be an officially supported skill? Or Google Home? Siri is terrible so skip that.
   
   
2. Multizone audio - the music servers are obscenely priced, but are apparently just Slimservers with custom software that has been reverse engineered. I think the appeal of Loxone is its simplicity of integration with dumb products, but rolling proprietary solutions for solved problems worries me as an approach.
   
   
3. Loxone Air - why did they go with this versus just adding in official Z-wave and/or Zigbee support? The only answers I can come up with is money, but are very limiting to the product and consumer unfriendly.

[Duncan]

i can only answer some question - in line below:

On Monday, 8 May 2017 17:53:35 UTC+1, tkn wrote:

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the long post - but I am planning out home automation for a renovation that is about to start.

I like the idea of a wired, PLC solution so that led me to Loxone. But as I do my research, I am unsure whether it is really an all-encompassing solution for me as certain, essentially basic, functions are missing or seem a bit hacky. I am in the US - so this presents its own issues where products are unapproved for use in the US.

So here are the practical questions:

1. Outdoor lighting - I'd like to put in Hue or LIFX or Qube RGB bulbs outside just for color changing on holidays; I'd like them to also flash red if the alarm goes off for emergency services. - is that an option, or do I have to find something esoteric to link with Loxone? 
   

i am using 2 cheap solutions -
1) milight wifi lights externally in waterproof gu10 fittings - these are sent signals from loxone using a picoC program and can be any colour you like, when you like, just like all other loxone controlled lighting
2) rgbw bare 12v contstant voltage lights, using a 4-wire cable (rgb+common anode) driven by an internal dmx decoder/power supply

1. 
   
2. Security alarms - Abode has the option of monitoring on an as-needed basis. I would like this so I can go on vacation for a while and have it monitored. Also is there an option to report directly to emergency services?
   
   
3. Door locks - I want keypad deadbolts for my doors and garden gates. With logging and time-limited access codes (for maids, guests, etc). Is this something I can do? Or could I somehow hook in a Schlage or Yale lock? I don't want those iButtons since they are easily lost and/or copied.
   
   
4. HVAC control - how smart is the HVAC compared to an Ecobee or Nest? 
   

loxone control of heating and ventilation is way smarter than ecobee or next - you have control at a zone or room level using the intelligent heating control block, and the complexity/granularity of overall control is down to your ingenuity in programming of loxconfig and understanding of heating controls generally.

i have warm water underfloor heating with around  30 zones plus MVHR all using cheap generic suppliers, all controlled and integrated with electric blinds for solor gain control, and solor photovotaic control storing daytime energy in hot water  for any excess electricity production.

1. 
   
2. Sprinkler control - same question versus a Rain Machine? I don't mind scripting in moisture and rain sensors to control sprinklers, but can I have it rotate zones in repeated circles to ensure adequate absorption, etc?
   

if loxone can electically control things, then yet again its simply down to your undertstanding of control logic to implement in loxconfig

1. 
   
2. IP cameras - Motion JPEG is pretty archaic. My plan is to have Dahua IP cameras multistreaming to an NVR in H265 and motion JPEG to Loxone.
   

not a problem - there are plenty of software solutons that will use h264 cameras to monitor/record, and retransmit mjpeg from these cameras as mjpeg for loxone

1. 
   
2. Smoke/CO detectors - Any US available solutions? Any that report to the fire department? Can I integrate a Nest Protect?

depends on your legal electrical requirements code (equivalent of uk building regulations), personally i dont see the need to integrate smoke/co into loxone, just a hardwired indenpenent solution plus/minus a digital input to loxone to signal that it has triggered when you are away
 

And then there are the philosophical questions. I see some worrying signs about unneeded proprietary solutions and concerns about integration with a variety of products. Ones that should be "table stakes". So I thought I would ask some questions after searching. I'll divvy it up by function I am looking for.

there is no doubt loxone are moving rapidly away from the lone/home hacker market where you integrate all sorts of oddball stuff, to a fully loxone supplied solution, but its still one of the most open yet supported platforms, but if you veer away from loxone-only hardware then you cant count on much support from loxone officially, and many of their more recently approved installers will only recommend/supply/install loxone hardware. I had hard time recently trying to convince a local installer to use a non-loxone dmx decoder/driver for 240v lighting or to consider using knx dimmers, and to move away from the idea that each room/zone needed a 'stereo' ceiling speaker and 2 channel amplifier for each bathroom

1. Voice control - seriously is Alexa not going to be an officially supported skill? Or Google Home? Siri is terrible so skip that.
   
   
2. Multizone audio - the music servers are obscenely priced, but are apparently just Slimservers with custom software that has been reverse engineered. I think the appeal of Loxone is its simplicity of integration with dumb products, but rolling proprietary solutions for solved problems worries me as an approach.
   

the freeware musicserver4lox is a real stab at loxones use/abuse of the squeezebox server structure  - it is free, costs almost nothing for hardware compared to loxone supplied hardware, and allows use of all the wonderful software/hardware that is still available via ebay etc, and at its heart uses the same squeezebox server infrastructure, just with less direct control from within loxone.
 https://www.loxforum.com/forum/projektforen/musicserver4lox/allgemeines using chrome for translation will give you a good overview.

i have installed a 16 zone mono setup (downmixed stereo, one amp channel and single ceiling speaker per zone) for around £240 for the laptop/usb sound cards / server side, plus the cost of amps and speakers - it offers upnp player intergration, ios source/speaker zone integration, integration for real squeezbox hardware such as duet remotes, players, boom and radio players

1. 
   
2. Loxone Air - why did they go with this versus just adding in official Z-wave and/or Zigbee support? The only answers I can come up with is money, but are very limiting to the product and consumer unfriendly.

i cant answer that, but some loxone air products such as their small remotes, switched plugs and extra i/o modules are invaluable for those things that are mobile/unforseen for a reasonable cost - try to imagine and wire up everything possible in your project, and just use air products to fill unforseen gaps - i have a small remote in each bedroom for alarm/music/lights off functions, and a number of the switched plugin sockets for things like christmas lights and table lights where i coulnt anticipate need for a switched local socket.

[tkn]

Thanks Duncan,

I worry they will disfavor other integrations - for example musicserver4lox - will it be blocked eventually? What about the other things people have hacked together?

I also don't expect Loxone to be able to manage to keep up with dedicated companies. Will their sprinkler controllers always be equal to Rainmachine and Rachio who are dedicated to one thing? Probably they can be, but I will have to put that together through scripting and that hardly seems like auto-pilot living. The HVAC granularity you have is amazing, but again, it requires a lot of work on my part.

And finding out what the right solutions are seems difficult. I want a keypad deadbolt or strike plate lock - but I can't figure it out. I want a lighting solution with a very high CRI, but I need DC switches or Loxone's cryptic 5-touch plates to make it work. And there is no repository of solutions besides digging through forums and hoping you are picking the best one.

Finally, closing their own forums is a bad sign in my experience. A very bad sign. I really want Loxone to work for me, but I don't want to take up programming as a hobby to make it work.

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 3:19:29 PM UTC-7, Duncan wrote:

i can only answer some question - in line below:

On Monday, 8 May 2017 17:53:35 UTC+1, tkn wrote:

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the long post - but I am planning out home automation for a renovation that is about to start.

I like the idea of a wired, PLC solution so that led me to Loxone. But as I do my research, I am unsure whether it is really an all-encompassing solution for me as certain, essentially basic, functions are missing or seem a bit hacky. I am in the US - so this presents its own issues where products are unapproved for use in the US.

So here are the practical questions:

1. Outdoor lighting - I'd like to put in Hue or LIFX or Qube RGB bulbs outside just for color changing on holidays; I'd like them to also flash red if the alarm goes off for emergency services. - is that an option, or do I have to find something esoteric to link with Loxone? 
   

i am using 2 cheap solutions -
1) milight wifi lights externally in waterproof gu10 fittings - these are sent signals from loxone using a picoC program and can be any colour you like, when you like, just like all other loxone controlled lighting
2) rgbw bare 12v contstant voltage lights, using a 4-wire cable (rgb+common anode) driven by an internal dmx decoder/power supply

1. 
   
2. Security alarms - Abode has the option of monitoring on an as-needed basis. I would like this so I can go on vacation for a while and have it monitored. Also is there an option to report directly to emergency services?
   
   
3. Door locks - I want keypad deadbolts for my doors and garden gates. With logging and time-limited access codes (for maids, guests, etc). Is this something I can do? Or could I somehow hook in a Schlage or Yale lock? I don't want those iButtons since they are easily lost and/or copied.
   
   
4. HVAC control - how smart is the HVAC compared to an Ecobee or Nest? 
   

loxone control of heating and ventilation is way smarter than ecobee or next - you have control at a zone or room level using the intelligent heating control block, and the complexity/granularity of overall control is down to your ingenuity in programming of loxconfig and understanding of heating controls generally.

i have warm water underfloor heating with around  30 zones plus MVHR all using cheap generic suppliers, all controlled and integrated with electric blinds for solor gain control, and solor photovotaic control storing daytime energy in hot water  for any excess electricity production.

1. 
   
2. Sprinkler control - same question versus a Rain Machine? I don't mind scripting in moisture and rain sensors to control sprinklers, but can I have it rotate zones in repeated circles to ensure adequate absorption, etc?
   

if loxone can electically control things, then yet again its simply down to your undertstanding of control logic to implement in loxconfig

1. 
   
2. IP cameras - Motion JPEG is pretty archaic. My plan is to have Dahua IP cameras multistreaming to an NVR in H265 and motion JPEG to Loxone.
   

not a problem - there are plenty of software solutons that will use h264 cameras to monitor/record, and retransmit mjpeg from these cameras as mjpeg for loxone

1. 
   
2. Smoke/CO detectors - Any US available solutions? Any that report to the fire department? Can I integrate a Nest Protect?

depends on your legal electrical requirements code (equivalent of uk building regulations), personally i dont see the need to integrate smoke/co into loxone, just a hardwired indenpenent solution plus/minus a digital input to loxone to signal that it has triggered when you are away
 

And then there are the philosophical questions. I see some worrying signs about unneeded proprietary solutions and concerns about integration with a variety of products. Ones that should be "table stakes". So I thought I would ask some questions after searching. I'll divvy it up by function I am looking for.

there is no doubt loxone are moving rapidly away from the lone/home hacker market where you integrate all sorts of oddball stuff, to a fully loxone supplied solution, but its still one of the most open yet supported platforms, but if you veer away from loxone-only hardware then you cant count on much support from loxone officially, and many of their more recently approved installers will only recommend/supply/install loxone hardware. I had hard time recently trying to convince a local installer to use a non-loxone dmx decoder/driver for 240v lighting, and to move away from the idea that each room/zone needed a 'stereo' ceiling speaker and 2 channel amplifier for each bathroom

[Duncan]

its worth remembering that for the basics of home automation, with lighting moods, switched sockets, heating control and ventilation/blinds, the loxone product is cheap and robust and programmable by the end user, unlike control4 or lutron - full integration isnt always best.

i was originally quoted around £60k for a fairly basic lutron install for my house, and ended up with loxone controlling far more than lutron would have evern done, for around £10k
i decided to keep smoke / burglar alarms, AV distribution  and music as separate systems, but basic controls for squeezebox were already in the loxone config anyway as a virtual output device - musicserver4lox just adds a convenient way to give some feedback to the user via the loxone interface such as volume, now playing etc.

i normally use knx light switches for play/pause/volume and squeezebox duet remotes or smartphone apps for full control, so dont rely on loxone/musicserver4lox at all

if you use a wired infrastructure back to central points, it leaves you with a robust system that can be replaced later if loxone isnt there or becomes unsuitable - combinations of dmx, knx, speaker wiring back to a central point and cat5/6/7 wiring can be used by almost any system and are likely to be around for many years to come.

[tkn]

Fair enough. And i agree.

At this point my main concerns are:

1. The door lock system is not secure and a company that is on top of these things would issue a recall.

2. No Alexa / Google Home direct support is frankly unacceptable at this point for an HA system.

3. The general move towards proprietary solutions and the closing of the community forums tell me this company is not heading in the right direction.

I am still considering it, but honestly think it would be better to use a generic PLC and script it out myself. Or to just use off the shelf Z wave / Zigbee solutions.

[amb5l]

I know exactly what you mean. If I could travel back in time (2 years for my project), having seen Loxone moving in a closed direction since about 1 second after I started (!), I would think hard about Loxone. But the miniserver - as a reliable, fast booting "core" controller - is currently hard to beat.

I'm doing Sonos and Alexa integration myself in an auxilliary always-on PC (an Intel NUC). Might migrate this to a Raspberry Pi when the recipe is sorted. It's a half functional mess right now, mainly Python, but looking at porting to C/C++ for speed in some cases. I really don't like having to do so much heavy lifting myself, the result will be fragile and a liability in the long term.

So I hope to see a well sorted open automation platform. For example a supported Pi distro which runs read only (to avoid SD card wear) because rolling my own is so complicated. And a corresponding infrastructure of hardware - ethernet connected, DIN rail mounting peripherals. I have a feeling all that stuff is going to happen, and that more of it that I know about is already available.

[tkn]

There is tons of tall about Sonos integration. Hell, Loxone has a demo of it on their website. Is that not the case?

I'd prefer to set it up with Chromecasts since I only use Spotify anyway but that seems like even more of a pain. I am not sure if the music server supports Spotify connect. So rolling my own music server might be an option.

And the lack of Alexa integration might just be a deal killer. Some people suggested using Loxone for the base integration and something called CQC on top. No idea what that is.

[Jeff]

CQC is a PC based home automation application. Check out the forums at Cocoontech.com

The issue with Alexa and similar products is that integration requires cloud services. Loxone isn't the only automation device that has issues integrating with Alexa. If you're going to use Alexa for control, make sure you have a backup plan in the case your internet goes down. 

[tkn]

Well, the idea would be I would just use the Loxone app whenever the internet went down.

I'll have to look at CQC.

[yesimag]

As far as alexa integration remember that this just hit the consumer market within the last year. There are plenty of other HA solutions that don't yet support it either. I promise integration is on the horizon, be it from loxone or a community hack.

In terms of your philosophical questions, you arw right to notice the change. But what im seeing is you're wanting a swiss army chainsaw that has every but of integration without the tinkering. Unfortunately in the HA game, at least to my knowledge, this still doesnt exist.

I like loxone because its somewhere in the middle of the two. They present a nice front end, which in all fairness still could use work, but a robust system underneath that can be adapted to work with just about everything which runs on ac, dc or ip. And the config software is relatively easy to use and straightforward, definitely more than I can say for many of the other big company HA solutions.

[yesimag]

Just noticed this in another thread here.. as I was saying, alexa integration isnt far off. Haven't tested this solution myself, but we're certainly close.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fppieczul%2Forg.openhab.binding.loxone&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE7dr1iAdOwppQukf4NZ8B656bSBw

[Urban]

1. Voice control - seriously is Alexa not going to be an officially supported skill? Or Google Home? Siri is terrible so skip that.
   

Loxone users can now connect their Loxone Miniserver with Amazon Alexa using Voxior skill.

Voxior uses the existing configuration of a KNX Gateway or a Loxone Miniserver and automatically sets itself up after a short two-step installation process:

- Step 1: establish a connection between a KNX Smart Home Gateway or Loxone Miniserver and Voxior through a simple web interface on www.voxior.com

Voxior is a cloud service that links Amazon Alexa accounts with a Smart Home Gateway such as the Gira HomeServer, Gira X1 or Loxone Miniserver. It uses the existing configuration on your gateway and automatically sets itself up.

Through Voxior you can also manage which devices can be controlled with your voice and set the phrases required to control a particular device or scene.

- Step 2: install Voxior Alexa Home Skill on your Amazon Alexa account and start device discovery.

Voxior supports Gira HomeServer, Gira X1 and Loxone Miniserver Gateways with others in development.

For more information get in touch with us at sup...@voxior.com.

 

[Simon Still]

Looks interesting but I can't find any pricing info on your site - it talks about a 7 day free trial but no info on what happens at the end of the trial.

I'm not going to buy an Alexa and spend time setting it up without a clear idea of the ongoing costs.

[Urban]

Looks interesting but I can't find any pricing info on your site - it talks about a 7 day free trial but no info on what happens at the end of the trial.

I'm not going to buy an Alexa and spend time setting it up without a clear idea of the ongoing costs.

If you do not have an Alexa device, you can also talk to Alexa using your phone (Astra or Reverb) or your browser (https://echosim.io/). You can find some details about EchoSim below:

If you don’t own an Amazon Echo device yet please set up EchoSim virtual device in your browser first:
1. Open the Echosim link (https://echosim.io) in a browser
2. Click “Login” and authenticate with your Amazon account.
3. Allow Echosim web page to use your microphone.

Please note that the voice recognition using an Echo device is much better due to Amazon’s Far field voice recognition using an array of 7 microphones. 

You are welcome to start your free trial now www.voxior.com.

Please contact our support team at sup...@voxior.com for the price.

[Simon Still]

On Friday, 21 July 2017 14:55:40 UTC+1, Urban wrote:

Please contact our support team at sup...@voxior.com for the price.

Really?  Come on - tell us what it is.  As soon as one of us finds out we're going to post it on here anyway.

 

[Kevp]

Must be expensive with all this secrecy ;-). will be interesting to see how it compares to a raspberry pi with Habridge.

[tkn]

Yeah. Any company that isn't transparent a out pricing is out. I am sure it is very overpriced.

[Urban]

We are at the stage of product development where we like to have direct connection to select new users in order to get feedback and improve our product, price included.

We plan to split the product into two versions - DIY and Installer version with separate functionality, new pricing and volume pricing system.

On top of that we regularly run promotional campaigns therefore posting the price on the forum might become confusing in the long run. We expect the pricing page along with e-shop to be public in 1-2 weeks time. Until then we ask you if you can contact us directly at sup...@voxior.com for the price.

We also ask you not to post the price on the forum for the above mentioned reasons.

You are welcome to start your free trial now.

I hope you understand. We strive to make our product better therefore all comments are welcome. Our support team will be happy to assist you.