Gira smoke alarm dual/vds

[Bouwmode]

I saw some pictures of the Gira smoke alarm dual/vds and I like the way this smoke alarm looks.

I was wondering if it can be integrated with Loxone and what is needed? I see Gira sell a relay module, a knx module, a radio module, ...

What parts are needed to have multiple smoke alarms hooked up to Loxone (keeping cost in mind)?

Are there advantages/disadvantages over using the Loxone smoke alarm?

[Simon Still]

The first problem with the Loxone Air detetctor is that it runs off a 9V battery.  That's better than nothing but building regs require mains powered alarms (with battery back up).

I looked a the Gira and from memory you could connect to Loxone via KnX (but would need programming) or use the relay module on a digital input.  In the end I decided that, although attractive, actually the Gira were *too* large and eye catching and I'd prefer my smoke detectors to be more discreet.  I've fitted a simple panel based system - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ESMAG2.html . Detectors are small and cheap and the alarm panel is located next to the Loxone system and has a couple of potential free outputs for fault and alarm.  and an input to use the fire alarm sounders on an external signal (Loxone intruder alarm?  Front door bell to rule them all?)

[TomM]

Just to note my solution to connecting fire detection equipment was a last minute thing and I ended up panic buying some standard Aico mains detectors including siting one in each of my 2 electrical cupboards/hubs.  In order to connect it up to Loxone I have used a relay module which connects to a single digital input on the loxone and kicks off the loxone fire alarm in addition to the pretty standard fire alarms.

http://www.aico.co.uk/Accessories-Hard-wired.html

[Neil]

Tom / Simon
I have been looking at the Aico and TLC options as we need to fit a system very soon and link into Loxone so this post is thread is very useful. However my quick assessment was the detectors looked a bit bulky and given we stress about discrete PIRs and wall switches and how things look then could we get something sleeker looking for heat / smoke detection.
Did you do much research into this and conclude the Aico and TLC products are pretty much as good as it gets??
Neil

[TomM]

Neil,

There's no doubt the Aico detectors could be seen as 'bulky' but they are pretty standard fit in many installs now.  I've been in many high end, £1m+ homes which have these Aico ones installed and you wouldn't really notice them.

However, if you're researching systems, as long as it has a relay output (or any output providing up to 10v) then it can easily be integrated into the Loxone.  That said, I was massively concerned about discrete-ness of sensors and I spent ages working on solutions for discrete PIRs etc however I ended up fitting relatively bulky Pyronix PIRs and these Aico detectors and now they're in I don't even notice then.  I've deactivated the LEDs in the PIRs which makes them really blend in quite well.  The final thing I forgot to consider about all of this is that not a single person has walked in to my house and looked up at the ceiling let alone mentioned the sensors - they're too busy looking at the LEDs back lighting the kitchen cabinetry!

So, unless you (or your client) are extremely discerning with a minimalist or otherwise immaculate house, I wouldn't get too hung up on it all really.  I actually wish I had spent more time planning my electrical cabinet layout as that got out of hand quickly and is currently the most embarrassing part of the install!

Tom

[Neil]

Tom

Thanks for your advice and I will do a little bit of research to see if we can get something a little sleeker but won't be too bothered if we run with the Aico or TLC from what you have said. My electrician installer proposed Aico as he is looking after that side of things but I have been looking after all things Loxone and there is a lot going on with a big install. I won't divert of this thread of smoke detection but will post something soon covering what we are doing but they are 2No near to zero carbon / Passivhaus with a big Loxone install. Consideration of cooling in summer months by opening Roof windows (Fakro - 24v actuators) has also been a key element.

I know what you mean by the electrical cabinet as that past week I have been giving it a lot of thought. We have a designated cupboard and I have just received the 5 Din Rail Future Automation cabinets and starting to look at additional trunking on the edge of the cabinet and how all the cables enter along with the termination blocks like Weidmuller etc and all the comments posted on the Forums in relation to the topic. As I say I will post something under a new thread with some photos in the near future if I think my experience will offer any help.

Neil

Neil

[Simon Still]

Neil

I used the Aico mains powered (with wireless interlinking) in my last house (a refurb hence the wireless) and they’re pretty inoffensive.  The ones I’ve got from TLC are smaller diameter but with a sounder base on possibly taller (though I still don’t think as tall as the Gira.  I’ve not got them working yet so can’t comment on reliability but it’s definitely more complex to set up than the Aico.  

The only advantage I can see is the ability to ring the alarms through Loxone (detailed as a ‘class change’ facility if you’re lookign at the specs).  I *might* use this as a doorbell at least in the basement workshop.  The output - ie when the fire alarms go off - will disable the MVHR system and turn on lights.  It’s really a bit of an edge case for integration - you hope it will never be used and the additional integration could make false alarms more of a hassle (though correctly specced with heat detectors and optical we didn’t get any false alarms in the last house despite a lot of burnt toast).

I’ll post some pics of my own install soon. We’re also a very low energy new build and I’ve got a large powered roof hatch for access to our roof terrace that I’ll be using for summer venting! 

The Future Automation cabinet is very good though I would wait to buy the ‘trim’ covers until you’ve finished your install - I’ve added some relays that protrude through the front so need to change mine.  

The Weidmuller ‘through’ blocks are very good.  I could have used just a couple of interconnected blocks for power distribution but didn’t want to buy the 20 that Loxone sell them in.  I’ve used "less dense" Wago blocks for power as well as a lot of very short cables as jumpers to interconnect some of the 8x2 Weidmullers.

My cables all drop through the ceiling above so I’ve got a 15cm section exposed but it’s in a cupboard.  One thing I didn’t do well enough was leave options for pulling additional cables - if it’s not too late I’d highly recommend running a few ducts (MVHR semi rigid ventilation duct would be perfect ) to run the cables you inevitably forget. 

Simon 

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[Johnny]

Hi Folks,

What smoke alarm did you go with in the end? Am I right in saying you need one of these with need smoke alarm -https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei128r-hard-wired-relay-module/

[Rob_in]

FWIW, we use GIRA Dual Q alarms.

You connect together with a dedicated wire (so when one is triggered they all go off) and then install a relay module in one of them so this can also trigger Loxone.

The part numbers are GIRA 233602 (Dual Q), GIRA 234000 (relay module).

HTH,

Robin

[Jonathan Dixon]

We have that aico relay module to notify Loxone, but I don't find it that useful. 

If it had a pre-alarm warning output it'd be great as that could gently warn the house via Loxone lights/audio, and then use it's internal sounder after 30s or so.

As it is, by the time Loxone has been notified, the whole house is already leaped 10foot in the air from the alarm itself going off. 

Remote notification if no-one is home is theoretical benefit, but in practice if I'm asleep the other side of the world I'm not going to see a phone notification for many hours anyway so really not something to rely on.

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[Johnny]

Thanks Rob, can I ask why don't you use the wired one part number  (2331 02)? Do the wired ones only last the 10 years too and need replaced or do you know the regulations? I am not 100% sure but I think you need a wired smoke alarm now again not sure about that?

[Scott F]

I am in the process of installing the Aico alarms in my property along with the relay module which i actually power from the 24V tree cable and have a dedicated PSU and tree line that does all of my security devices. The actual installation of the fire detectors will depend entirely on exactly where you live; I am in scotland and the rules cover the distribution and interlinking of detectors but there is no requirement that they be powered from the mains. The general battery life is 10 years (i would take that with a pinch of salt) and even the mains powered have a backup battery which expires after 10 years so it really makes no sense for me to run the additional cable for mains power as i would need to replace them all after 10 years regardless, including the relay module. The input to loxone as Joth points out is not much use if you are on the other side of the worls however if you have the caller service and messaging service then you can alert a keyholder who may be able to respond. One benefit you could program in is the messaging service to notify you of what alarm is activated. All alarms will sound no matter what sensor is active and you can use the additional input to let you know if it is specifically a CO alarm so you know to take action to ventillate. Anoter benefit of the relay input is that during the night you can have the system automatically switch on the lights so you can see to investivgate on escape if necessary without trying to find a light switch in the dark when you have been abruptly awoken.

[Jonathan Dixon]

> but there is no requirement that they be powered from the mains 

Interesting, in England, the regulations state "All dwellings should have a fire detection and alarm system, minimum Grade D2 Category LD3 standard, in accordance with the relevant recommendations of BS 5839-6."

Where Grade D2 means (my emphasis):

System incorporating one or more interlinked mains-powered smoke alarms (and heat alarms if required), each with an integral stand-by supply.  They can be hardwire-interlinked or radio-interlinked 

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[Simon Still]

I'm really happy with the https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ESMAG2.html panel and I'd fit it again.  

The battery (or battery back up) alarms no longer have a replaceable battery so you have to replace the whole unit.  Neither eco nor cheap.  

Cabling to the alarms is only 12V so it's cheap, small and flexible and thus easy to run. As far as I can see theres no requirement to replace the alarm head units themselves after any set period. 

The fire panel has battery backup through a 12v Lead acid battery so there's only one thing to replace when that reaches EoL (and they're under £20).   I've had just one false alarm where a visitor burnt toast badly enough that it set off the smoke detector in the next room.... 

And we have a 'loud doorbell' setting which is really useful (gives one "woop" fire alarm sound) if you're doing something with background noise and don't want to miss the door.  (it's linked to workshop lights being on or a manual setting in the intercom interface) 

[Rob.no1]

Do the TLC devises (or any of the others) give you the option to silence the alarms via loxone? or do you jest get a relay output if alarms are sounding?

[Rob_in]

On Tuesday, 2 May 2023 at 09:08:10 UTC+2 Joth wrote:

We have that aico relay module to notify Loxone, but I don't find it that useful.

Depends on your use case I guess. We have roller shutters over every external door & window so having them open immediately a fire is detected sounds like a good idea to me! Well - assuming the power hasn't gone out by then. FWIW, here in France just about everyone has this kind of shutter so while they are designed to withstand intrusion from outside I assume in case of fire with power cut one is supposed to be able to push them out of their tracks from the inside for egress.

On Tuesday, 2 May 2023 at 09:08:53 UTC+2 Johnny wrote:

Thanks Rob, can I ask why don't you use the wired one part number  (2331 02)?

I didn't even consider mains powered devices TBH.

 

Do the wired ones only last the 10 years too and need replaced or do you know the regulations?

No idea. But TBH, they are cheap enough that replacing after 10 years really isn't an issue. I liked the idea that the sensor would be refreshed every 10 years to be honest.

 

I am not 100% sure but I think you need a wired smoke alarm now again not sure about that?

Who needs? Always check your local regulations.

Cheers,

Robin

[Simon Still]

Here are the inputs/outputs

I use "class change" to link the alarms to the house doorbell (as mentioned above).

The 'fire' relay is linked to Loxone.  In the event of a fire it turns off the MVHR (can't see that would make a huge difference to fire or smoke spreading, but no harm) and switches all house lights on.

Looking at the panel theres no way to link to the 'silence alarms' either using an official relay input or one you could hack together (the button is one of those 'bubble' buttons on a PCB so not easy to link into the wiring) 

someone mentioned whether the fire cuts the power - I have a fire sensor in the 'service' cupboard which contains Loxone, the house consumer unit, networking kit and the fire panel.  It's a fairly common place for fires to start and you want early warning of that if it's going to cut the power to everything else!  

The TLC board has a relay output (can't remember