What's coming May 4?

[Rob_in]

Teased here, no real clues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evHydb8nyDY

[L P]

Voice control?

[Rob_in]

On Thursday, 8 April 2021 at 07:38:01 UTC+2 L P wrote:

Voice control?

That would hardly be a game changer - Google Assistant/Siri/Alexa integration has been available for ages now.

[L P]

I agree with you, but I'm calibrating the hype according to their recent audio server announcement. ;-)

[Simon Still]

is anyone really using voice control?  We unplugged Alexa.  At home Siri gets used for setting timers.

The only place I've found it works well is in the car (CarPlay)  where can reliably start a call to a few people (helped if given distinctive names in contacts - my wife is in as ''my wife' rather than her name for that reason).  Sending WhatsApp messages via Siri dictation in the car works remarkably well too. 

but in the home seems a dead end to me. 

[L P]

I use voice (Siri -> Homebridge -> Loxone) for a few scenes (good morning, good night) and lights. It works well with phone or watch and is much faster than using the Loxone app.

[Stickytricks]

@LP I actually think that that the audio server was/is a game changer, perhaps launched a too little early....

[Daniel Feist]

I needed to put an order in for a bunch of stuff this week prior to UK pricing changes.  But, I've decided to only order the extensions I need and delay on the touch pure and presence sensors until after May 4th.

My thinking is that the most likely announcement given the "hello" hint in the teaser is voice control, and that voice control will need microphones in each room.  This would mean:

1) New touch pure with a microphone

2) Existing presence sensor "acoustic sensor" used as a microphone.

3) New presence sensor with a microphone.

4) New per-room device

Good move? Bad move?

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[Deac99]

I had just finished some training in the USA.  Our trainers comments were:

Regarding price changes - it makes no difference (at least for USA) because the prices are going to be more in line with the Austria prices, and the discounts are changing accordingly so the net result is the same.

Regarding Voice control - Loxone is not working on this at all because of the huge amount of AI required.  They may deal with it in the future but there is nothing at all in the works as of today.

Regarding the big announcement - he really does not know but he is guessing it is a more elegant doorbell.

Take that  all for what it is worth...

[Rob_in]

On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 03:48:08 UTC+2 Deac99 wrote:

Regarding Voice control - Loxone is not working on this at all because of the huge amount of AI required.  They may deal with it in the future but there is nothing at all in the works as of today.

TBH, this is a non-issue. When you look at the number of open source speech recognition solutions available they don't have to re-invent that wheel.

 

Regarding the big announcement - he really does not know but he is guessing it is a more elegant doorbell.

Guess that could make sense, because IMHO the Loxone intercom solution is very expensive and kind of rubbish. An upgrade would hardly be ground breaking though.

Robin

[Rob_in]

I have to say, after being very sceptical of voice control have to agree.

I don't really approve of cloud based solutions (maybe one day will build a local open source one) but was gifted a Google Nest Mini and have integrated with our system via an ioBroker adapter I created.

Saying "Hey Google, close shutters" or "Hey Google, dim the lights" is much faster and easier than getting up to press switches or pulling out your phone and opening the app. FWIW, in this regard Loxone really should work on making opening the app (or loading the web interface locally) instant because the startup, albeit short, sucks when you do it many times a day.

Robin

[Simon Still]

On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 06:27:42 UTC+1 Rob_in wrote:

Saying "Hey Google, close shutters" or "Hey Google, dim the lights" is much faster and easier than getting up to press switches or pulling out your phone and opening the app. FWIW, in this regard Loxone really should work on making opening the app (or loading the web interface locally) instant because the startup, albeit short, sucks when you do it many times a day.

Although the reality is more like

"hey google, shut shutters".  and nothing happens. then 

"hey google, close blinds"  and nothing happens, then 

"hey google, CLOSE SHUTTERS"  and getting, "sorry, I can't find "close shutters on Spotify" 

We gave up on our Alexa - turn on the radio/turn on 6music/turn on BBC Radio 6 music.    Even simple stuff is pretty hard to get right.  

to be effective voice controls have to be really precise, which tends to mean only the person who set them up. Add to that the annoying times Siri wakes up at random, from the other room, when theres something on the tv or radio.   I'm still finding simple, well located, buttons are the best solution to nearly everything - maybe adding extra Touch Air switches where you need them. 

Remembering, of course, that this is supposed to be home *automation* - our blinds open at 7am, close at earlier of dusk/9pm and have a macro on a button on the Harmony TV remote to close them earlier if you're watching TV before dark....

[Rob_in]

On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 10:08:44 UTC+2 Simon Still wrote:

We gave up on our Alexa - turn on the radio/turn on 6music/turn on BBC Radio 6 music.    Even simple stuff is pretty hard to get right.  

Well there's always going to be different user experiences with any product. Shame you tried and don't like it, but the good news is it's hardly the end of the world and there are other solutions.

For some things it works well for us though, and it's free, so why not (beyond the usual privacy concerns, etc. but... meh... I don't worry about that)?

 

Remembering, of course, that this is supposed to be home *automation* - our blinds open at 7am, close at earlier of dusk/9pm and have a macro on a button on the Harmony TV remote to close them earlier if you're watching TV before dark....

Well, you can't automate everything. As you clearly know given you have a button on your remote for those cases.

We have open plan living/dining/lounge so if someone turns the TV on at night sometimes it's not a good idea to have the lights dim automatically in case someone else is cooking. In the day do we want the shutters closed when the TV comes on? For 'serious' viewing maybe, for casually watching something 'background' hardly. Stuff like this you can never 100% automate.

Robin 

[Daniel Feist]

Regarding price changes - it makes no difference (at least for USA) because the prices are going to be more in line with the Austria prices, and the discounts are changing accordingly so the net result is the same.

My understanding is that there will be a price increase in the U.K. from May 1st, not sure if it's a fixed % or per product though.

Regarding Voice control - Loxone is not working on this at all because of the huge amount of AI required.  They may deal with it in the future but there is nothing at all in the works as of today.

Regarding the big announcement - he really does not know but he is guessing it is a more elegant doorbell

You are probably right it's fairly unlikely that Loxone gets into the voice control space. Maybe I should put that big touch pure and presence sense order in now rather than wait.

 

Take that  all for what it is worth...

On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 4:43:34 PM UTC-5 DanF wrote:

I needed to put an order in for a bunch of stuff this week prior to UK pricing changes.  But, I've decided to only order the extensions I need and delay on the touch pure and presence sensors until after May 4th.

My thinking is that the most likely announcement given the "hello" hint in the teaser is voice control, and that voice control will need microphones in each room.  This would mean:

1) New touch pure with a microphone

2) Existing presence sensor "acoustic sensor" used as a microphone.

3) New presence sensor with a microphone.

4) New per-room device

Good move? Bad move?

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 16:07, Stickytricks <uniq...@gmail.com> wrote:

@LP I actually think that that the audio server was/is a game changer, perhaps launched a too little early....

On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 6:58:45 AM UTC+1 L P wrote:

I agree with you, but I'm calibrating the hype according to their recent audio server announcement. ;-)

On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 7:56:31 AM UTC+2 Rob_in wrote:

On Thursday, 8 April 2021 at 07:38:01 UTC+2 L P wrote:

Voice control?

That would hardly be a game changer - Google Assistant/Siri/Alexa integration has been available for ages now.

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[Jonathan Dixon]

The microphones in the Google home and Alexa devices are quite evolved, as they tend to have a mic array and a bunch of local processing for echo cancelation, noise reduction and filtering to human voice frequencies. Even after quite a few years of iteration I think they still have a lot of room for improvement.

*if*  Loxone do release something (and that's a big if), it is almost certainly something that will have some v1 issues and need an upgrade before too long.  Therefore, building it into expensive designer light switch seems a really bad idea, unless you're up for frequent replacements. 

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[damien deville]

not sure at all that it will be something linked to voice control.

In the french video, it's written : "souhaitez-lui la bienvenue" which can be translated to : "welcome him/her".

and before the video, it's written "Le nouveau produit qui change la donne" which can be translated to "The new game-changing product".

Even if in all other language, the message is like "say hello ..."

[Byron]

There is no AI development required if they were to create an extension that connects to Google Home / Apple Homekit / Alexa.

It would also be a good way to integrate non-Loxone stuff, which is probably the reason why they will not develop this.

I'm guessing a light saber or some other Star Wars related product.

Or is it truly a random date and not related to "May the 4th be with you"...

[Rob_in]

On Thursday, 29 April 2021 at 08:03:40 UTC+2 Byron wrote:

There is no AI development required if they were to create an extension that connects to Google Home / Apple Homekit / Alexa.

No extension required as the Miniserver already has IP connectivity. A software only solution is all that is necessary on the Miniserver.

Due to the way these vocal assistant products work some cloud infrastructure on Loxone's side to run the fulfilment services would be required. That would then pass Loxone specific commands to a Miniserver which need connectivity to this same cloud infrastructure (establishing and responding to that connection is the software only change required on the Miniserver I mention above).

Because cloud services are required Loxone would need some kind of subscription service to pay for that, but notice they have no problem charging for weather service so they already have billing and such in place.

Robin

[Rob_in]

On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 03:48:08 UTC+2 Deac99 wrote:

Regarding the big announcement - he really does not know but he is guessing it is a more elegant doorbell.

Closest guess... well done :)

So a new intercom that retails at 490€ here in Europe, has a camera resolution of 1280x720 (which is pretty poor for modern equipment), has no IR light and requires their separate keypad if you want codes (although I will admit the inclusion of a Tree interface to achieve that is nice)... well... I guess they've done worse but not super impressed.

I mean, the price is not completely ridiculous, but still 2-3 times more expensive than any other solution I'm considering for a video intercom. And TBH, am not a fan of touch keypads outside either (touch devices aren't great when they are wet or people wear gloves) so while it looks nice (aesthetically), don't really think this solution is optimal.

Robin

[Daniel Feist]

Which other option are you considering?

I've been looking at Doorbird and Unifi G4 doorbell as two alternatives, but each has its own disadvantages.  G4 doorbell is wifi only for example...

I do plan to use NFC touch for access though,  so one thing the new intercom has is no need to make/ buy a custom housing. Agree it's expensive for what it is though. 

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[Tony Doval]

In my opinion there are 2 keys.

• WebRTC and new video block in configuration. Maybe the new block is opened to 3rd party intercom. We'll see.
  
• The new Intercom it's IP44 but ... the NFC touch it's IP20.

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[Jonathan Dixon]

They certainly impressed me. I had thought that terminating ethernet was a solved problem at this point, yet they've managed to invent a new connection standard for 4-core ethernet. 🙄

https://www.loxone.com/wp-content/uploads/datasheets/Datasheet_Intercom.pdf?v=1

Am I understanding correctly that this creates a new Tree bus, i.e.tunneling any connected Tree peripherals over Ethernet back to the miniserver? If so, that's an interesting development in its own right. 

On Wed, 5 May 2021, 05:58 Rob_in, <rain...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Fabrizio Falca]

Yes, exactly.

There's now a Tree extension tunnelled and embedded into the new Intercom, with further 50 possible devices connectable (but not sharable with the main cabinet TREE bus nor GND)

What I'm now doubting is the system latency time (time from the physical touch on a Tree device to the actual aknowledge of the same at the miniserver side) due to TCP protocol connection. This won't be few ms also not systematic.

New connection for 4 core eth is even quicker than acclaimed standard RJ45, just strip away single core insulation and push into this 4 push-in connector. J

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[Simon Still]

What are people needing high resolution cameras for with this use case?  I've got the original intercom installed for 5 years now and yes, the 'camera specs' look terrible but they're more than good enough for recognising the person who is at the door (and it switches to b&W in low light which still works well enough).

New one?  outdoor touch just seems a bad idea.  Making it from glass looks poor from a vandalism point of view.  Not including some form of access control built in is a missed opportunity - NFC? iButton?  - though personally I'm still dubious about security for a main door using anything but a physical key. (we use an ibutton for our gate though) 

[Rob_in]

On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 10:40:47 UTC+2 Simon Still wrote:

What are people needing high resolution cameras for with this use case?

It's not for the intercom per se, but if you're going to put a camera somewhere, you might as well have a decent resolution one and have it linked to a NVR.

 

...and it switches to b&W in low light which still works well enough.

Does the 5 year newer Loxone camera do this is low light? Does yours have an IR light?

 

Outdoor touch just seems a bad idea.  Making it from glass looks poor from a vandalism point of view.  Not including some form of access control built in is a missed opportunity - NFC? iButton?

Completely agree regarding the touch and glass. Having developed the hardware why not release another model with stainless/aluminium design and physical buttons?

TBH, the lack of accessories could be a good thing for those who don't need them - you know - because it has built in Tree for adding some in a modular fashion..

I'm all for a modular design and the inclusion of Tree output on this device is interesting as one could make it a kindof hub at your entrance. Think about some gate hardware which would need and intercom, keypad, relay outputs for lights, motor control, etc. and maybe some inputs for gate/door position sensors, etc. The inclusion of Tree means for our gate use case would mean we could do that with this intercom and Tree parts. OK, so that's nice.

Side note rant - feel free to ignore the below... ;)

Well, if we wanted to burn money - Tree parts are hideously expensive. 80€ for a relay - is this a joke?! Even KNX parts are cheaper! ... and an RPi (anther IP device which could easily act as a hub for 1/10th of the price) GPIO relay is literally 1€! I mean really - Loxone control the Tree protocol so aren't paying any licensing or whatever and don't have 3rd party test/integration to worry about - Tree devices should be much cheaper!

Then we have to ask... they seem to have been avoiding IP devices (I get IP stuff isn't ideal) and even developed 'Tree Turbo' for the music server why use IP now? Are they saying IP is now our friend? If it is... why did they bother with 'Tree Turbo' for the Music Server?! I get it would not be ideal to make this intercom 'Tree Turbo' because there's no 'Tree Turbo' on the Miniserver, nor a 'Tree Turbo' extension, gateway, etc - but if 'Tree Turbo' is a protocol with legs where are those products?

I really don't like bashing Loxone and while this device has some nice consistencies with the Tree integration, at the same time some inconsistencies with their other product line looks odd. Every time they do this (release a product which is some way doesn't seem to 'fit') it just looks like a missed opportunity IMHO.

Robin

[Simon Still]

It would. be fascinating to see the product strategy, if there is one. 

I'd expect the intercom needs to be IP because the "off the shelf" intercom modules they've likely integrated are all IP - webcam firmware, SIP intercom protocols - and it keeps some compatibility with existing intercoms (and supported third party intercoms) and PoE to power the thing. 

Then for the 'luxury home' use case having extra local capabilities - lights, gates, movement sensors, code readers etc - all over a single cable is a really useful. 

but then the unit itself is glass/touch - which makes it look much more like a product designed for indoor use in an apartment block. 

[Techdoctor]

I wonder just how water proof the thing is. Even so called weather proof intercoms are often not.  I always put a little roof over anything like that when its fitted outside.  One example is the Nice Home DS100 RF keypad. No roof and they last about a year if you are lucky, with a small plastic roof fitted, 5 years and counting.  And since the Nice keypad and the new Loxone intercom are both IP44 then I think mounting them outside is a no no, unless its in a sheltered position. 

And how well does the touch work if its raining, or will it set the thing off.