Disaster Planning Quiz - What Would You Do

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Lox goes out of business. Your Miniserver gets fried by lightning. Now what? Just hope you can find a used one?

I'm not trying to convince anyone they should not use Loxone. I'm just going through the process of deciding if I should stay with mine and live with the problems/risks.

Is there any alternative that you would consider? Other than robbing a bank for Crestron/Control4/Savant?

I'm very reluctant to consider a solution that is mostly homebrew or kludge. I will have to sell my house at some point.

[Rob_in]

For this reason our Loxone miniserver is basically just a 'logic controller' within an ecosystem of other standards here. Our switches are KNX, lighting DMX and relays/sensors Modbus.

When we installed, chose Loxone as a commercial product that one should always be able to get support for. 'homebrew' stuff as you put it, wouldn't fit in this boat. However, I think systems like Home Assistant are getting more mainstream and acceptable now. Personally I don't like Home Assistant, but many others do and it seems to have good support.

In our scenario you could easily replace the miniserver with an SBC running Home Assistant (or some other automation software) with DMX/Modbus/KNX interfaces very cheaply & easily.

If you had money to burn you could turn everything KNX, add a logic controller from any number of vendors and go that route.

There will always be options. While I wouldn't worry about it though, I wouldn't invest in loads of proprietary Loxone tree products either.

Robin

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Thanks for feedback. Absolutely agree with the approach of minimal Loxone.

In USA KNX is less desirable. I’ve gone the ethernet “bus” route.

I’m in my mid-60s so I have to be more concerned about eventually selling or being incapacitated. Spouse doesn’t want that problem. The odds of selling to a tech-savy buyer are essentially zero. Any commercial company that would take over would replace everything at extreme cost.

In the last 10 years there have been exactly 2 Loxone Partners in the Minneapolis/St Paul area. Only 1 at a time, for a short time, and then gone. Likely just electricians with one project. Very unlikely to be capable of taking over a hybrid system.

Home Assistant, or other DIY, doesn’t really help with these concerns. Given the nature of those things it’s even less likely to find commercial entities that could take over.

I’ve had these concerns since our build 8 years ago. I guess I’m just going to have to resign myself to a solution that will be replace the entire system with an expensive commercial system. No doubt I will be eating the entire cost of all that. So, in the end, all I’ve really saved over the life of this system is paying a commercial entity for every programming change needed.

[Jonathan Dixon]

You mention Control4 as a possibility - this has fairly extensive KNX support I believe (more so than Loxone) - they sell their own range of KNX accessories https://docs.control4.com/stashes/knx/ 

 I have no experience of it, but if my customers with KNX devices wanted to de-Loxoneify their house that's probably what I'd suggest looking at, along side Gira, LogicMachines, or various other KNX logic controllers, like Rob said.

For me, I'm lucky that I always keep a spare miniserver in stock. Should Loxone discontinue this would become my private supply to tie me over until I rebuilt the house on somethings else. I only have 9 Tree accessories so swapping them out for KNX (or retractive switches) is a simpler part of the job. Reprogramming control of DMX dimmers, modbus, window openers, internorm blind gateway, 1-wire sensors, etc would be far more cost in time required.

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[Jedi Tek'Unum]

The options seem to be significantly different in Europe. I understand KNX has a big presence but in the USA it's nearly nonexistent.

At least a few of us here on the forum have gone the route of ethernet for expansion. I have some ControlByWeb stuff for output and homebrew (really, as in I designed/built the hardware & software) stuff for input. The latest Kincony TxxM devices will be replacing my homebrew stuff and the ControlByWeb. Those Kincony devices just nuke the value proposition of native Loxone devices. We can afford to keep spares of everything and still be pretty inexpensive.

An underlying potential issue is the instability of UDP Virtual Output (and sometimes Input) as discussed by a few of us. As far as I can tell there is essentially zero support available from Loxone. I'd bet the support isn't much better for partners. They have an arrogant air about how they do business. Their product could be so much more if they actually listened to suggestions. I digress.

I've got 32+ DMX channels, 16+ relay outputs, 48+ switch inputs, 4 analog inputs. Our basement isn't finished so those numbers will only grow. Not a small setup (or large). If anyone reading is a Crestron/Control4/Savant dealer in the USA I'd appreciate an off the cuff ballpark for a system of that scale. Maybe it isn't as horrific as I imagine.

Against my core instincts I'm actually considering buying another Miniserver, likely used, Gen 1 ok, just so I can have a separate system to develop/test configs - and have a spare. I seem to be locked into this product for the foreseeable future so might as well try to make it work better. I'll probably regret it.

[Simon Still]

I think Loxone is in a pretty good place now - this definitely a bit a concern when I was speccing and installing >10 years ago but the company seems to have grown well and the use in commercial environments gives a lot more 'security' than private house installs.  AI summary says over 300k installs worldwide (vs 500k for Control4).  

I've also found the kit reliable.  Touch wood, but I've had no issues with any of my Loxone kit.  I've just replaced the SD card for the second time, but everything else is original.  A Chinese 240v DMX dimmer blew bulbs but I swapped that out for a simple DMX relay unit. 

In terms of regular programming, I don't think most people would need that - we're all geeks on this stuff, looking at our house and thinking how we could automate something else, or change the way something works to be more convenient.  I suspect the vast majority would move into a 'smart' home and accept the way it worked and live with it.  The Config can be administered remotely and largely (with live view) tested remotely.  There are increasing amounts of stuff that an end user can alter via the app. 

For saleability I think there is strong argument for keeping as much 'in' the Loxone ecosystem as possible - working out the home-brew stuff is going to be the nightmare for anyone else trying to maintain in future.  But, unless there's a hardware failure, it doesn't really need a local Loxone engineer - could be done from another time zone.  The one *big* mistake of Loxone's hardware design was the location of the SD card port that need the cabinet opened up to swap I solved that with an card port extension so that my card slot is now accessible from outside the cabinet.  A backup SD card in a case velcro'd next to it. If there was a card failure when I wasn't home I could instruct someone to swap the card (though it feels like SD cards actually fail more gradually and give a start giving Low memory/card fault messages before they affect operation).

Loxone's lack of support for third party stuff isn't a surprise to me - put very simply, how do they make money out of that?  Theres no revenue for them when you install or in providing support for it.  And how can they test/work with an unlimited number of third party products?  I've got a few sockets controlled by UDP and they're just flakier than Loxone smart sockets.  They usually work, but sometimes only after a delay.  So I might save you a load of money when you install your system but it makes it much harder to transfer to someone else.  

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

I'll reply to just this one comment here and follow up with another reply for the rest.

On Thursday, January 22, 2026 at 3:40:44 AM UTC-6 Simon Still wrote:

AI summary says over 300k installs worldwide (vs 500k for Control4). 

Interesting. While AI info has some value I always take the answers with many grains of salt. As an example, below I used duck.ai for a few questions.

Any interpretation is questionable at best. At another point I asked about Loxone worldwide installs and it said 200k. Personally, I wouldn't believe any of these numbers until I tracked down the source.

But, let's say the revenue is accurate (most likely to be so). Either Control4 is immensely more expensive, has far more than 500k installs, or Loxone has far less than 300k installs. Number of employees should also be fairly accurate but there is no way Loxone has 400+ employees with that revenue.

I agree with the gist of what you're saying - Loxone is a serious player in the market and should remain stable.

The dealer/partner numbers are unbelievable to me. If those are accurate then they have WAY too many. Loxone partners, at least in my area of the USA, come and go by the project it seems. Likely nobody in this area can sustain the volume requirements.

Note the Control4 claim of over 13k 3rd-party devices.

 

[Jonathan Dixon]

> Either Control4 is immensely more expensive, has far more than 500k installs, or Loxone has far less than 300k installs.

Or has a very different revenue model.

Some interesting market data there - taking them at face value (like you, I'll remain skeptical of any numbers so easily extracted from a web/AI search) then it perhaps shows the difference, and strength, of the subscription model. With half a million active installs and say $150 avg annual fee per install, they're ahead of Loxone's total annual revenue based on their subscriptions alone.

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[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Thursday, January 22, 2026 at 3:40:44 AM UTC-6 Simon Still wrote:

In terms of regular programming, I don't think most people would need that - we're all geeks on this stuff, looking at our house and thinking how we could automate something else, or change the way something works to be more convenient.

 

Of course we would be a very small minority of their installations. However, given that the experiment a few years ago to be partner-only was apparently a complete failure, there might be more of us than we think. The non-partner revenue has to be substantial. 

The downside is that they have done nothing for support of retail non-partner customers. That has to change.

Loxone's lack of support for third party stuff isn't a surprise to me - put very simply, how do they make money out of that?  Theres no revenue for them when you install or in providing support for it.  And how can they test/work with an unlimited number of third party products?

First, they don't make more money if a partner installs. I'd assume they make LESS because they have to let the partner get some profits on the devices - and the partner has to compete with direct retail sales.

No matter what they do for products they have to have robust interfaces to the outside world/devices. They simply can't cover everything.

Support for UDP Virtual Output (and Input) is a single thing, not dependent on the number of different devices possible on the other end.

It's a common business practice these days for software/cloud services to have a tier of $0 which they still support (of course support will be less/slower). That handles getting people interested and trying it out. Brings in more paying business as those users expand.

Also, and this should be critical, responding to support issues for functionality that doesn't work correctly or reliably is a WIN for any company even if it comes from non-paying users. It's a free and massive extension to their QA efforts. Fixing those problems only makes their product better AND reduces future support costs. In my past corporate career it made no difference if a customer was a $10K or $100M customer; a bug was a bug. We actually preferred problems from small customers because the impact is likely less on the development/QA organization than it would have been if a $1B company had the same problem. Guess which one escalates to the CEO and causes all night and weekend work or airplane trips?

Likewise, not accepting suggestions and reviews from us low-lifes is a really stupid business move.

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Thursday, January 22, 2026 at 8:56:13 AM UTC-6 Joth wrote:

> Either Control4 is immensely more expensive, has far more than 500k installs, or Loxone has far less than 300k installs.

Or has a very different revenue model.

Some interesting market data there - taking them at face value (like you, I'll remain skeptical of any numbers so easily extracted from a web/AI search) then it perhaps shows the difference, and strength, of the subscription model. With half a million active installs and say $150 avg annual fee per install, they're ahead of Loxone's total annual revenue based on their subscriptions alone.

I would be willing to pay a reasonable subscription fee if I received value from it. By value I mean real support, attention to suggestions, and evolving software that does more than just support their latest piece of hardware. I have zero confidence I'd get any ROI from such a subscription at this point.

If these statistics are accurate, Loxone has not done as well as Control4. Control4 was formed in 2003; Loxone in 2009. 35% older, 66% more installations, and 3.5X the revenue. (Crestron founded in 1972 and Savant in 2005.)

I would argue the sweet spot for a relatively new player (4th of 4 in this pool) is mid-market. Below the high-end and dealer-locked, which the other 3 are, but above the commodity junk. As they found out, there isn't room for a 4th high-end dealer-locked vendor (which, BTW, I predicted way back when they tried it).  If I were the business decision maker that would spell a volume business model. You do that with retail sales backed by a good installer base (without stupid annual quotas), moderate hardware prices, free software - or minimal cost (subscription or major release upgrades), some support (more with installers), and evolving hardware and software. It isn't new or rocket science.

BTW, duck.ai says Gen 1 Miniserver was in production from 2011 until Gen 2 in 2018 so 7 years. It's now been 8 years for Gen 2. That's a fairly long cadence. Time for a new generation. I can't characterize the software evolution but it seems extremely lethargic to me.

[Simon Still]

Fully agree that the AI numbers I put up are unlikely to be accurate but they do give an 'order of magnitude' sizing. Loxone's not a startup, they have a sizble installed base now.  None of the other data points really tell us anything - speed of growth is no guarantee of success as it often brings with it lots of debt which makes a company riskier. Nor is number of employees or revenue - profitability is the one that matters. 

The part of the business I have difficulty with is that they have ongoing software development costs and support costs for installed systems, but no ongoing revenue streams from those systems. Now I guess the idea is that, with no support in theory for individuals those installs should have a maintenance contract with an installer which reduces the CPD/ongoing training/number of identical queries Loxone have to deal with.  Then they need to manage qualification as an installer (to get support) - to stop every private customer just registering as an installer - and a quota is the most obvious way (though not necessarily easy for small guys to maintain). 

Personally I think their biggest mistake was shutting down their forums. I'm not on any others, and this one is not particularly active, but I would have thought a lot of support issues could have been handled with a decent (moderated?) forum that they could monitor and have support staff contribute to.  Apple manage it.  Is there an 'installer' forum discussing config solutions to problems somewhere?  I know there are more active German language forums that get linked to from here occasionally. 

I hate stuff on subscriptions.  Loxone working standalone without needing web services was one of the attractions.  But if they sold no more systems how would they keep the software updated for future Phone OS's without some sub revenue? £64 a year for the weather service?? far too much.  But nothing for the rest? makes me a little uncomfortable.  (but then so would 'breaking' peoples homes because a payment had failed). 

They're never going to be a true retail player as their approach is hard wired.  Regulations mean that in most markets a Loxone system really needs to be installed by an electrician - it's not trying to be an 'over the top' DIY retrofit solution. 

In terms of hardware updates  we're back to the vagaries of AI.  The original loxlive (effectively gen 1) was 2010.  Gen 2 started delivery in March 2020 so next gen could be another 5 years away...

incidentally - same blog says 100k installs after 10 years, 120k only a few months later so growth had accelerated a lot. 

https://www.loxone.com/enus/blog/miniserver-10-years/

Hardware evolution is just fine for me.  This is for running a home/business - it needs to be stable technology and run for many years.  What do you think an updated MS would include?  

I've got 'replace MS with gen 2' on my todo list but theres nothing, yet, that's required it.  It would give me better Siri/Homekit/Matter integration but it looks like that's very limited and, to be honest I'm still just not sold on voice control.  I just looked an I set up some Loxone iOS shortcuts that can be controlled by Siri, and our Eve blinds can be but I almost never used them - by the time you've got your phone out of your pocket to use Siri it's easier to open the app, or press the button on the wall.  What I want from Matter is to have my matter devices in Loxone, not recreate some limited parts of Loxone in Homekit.   I'm thinking I'll wait for gen 3 now.   I'm not a huge or complex install, I'm not pushing memory limits and I'm not sure speed benefits would be noticeable.

I'm slightly puzzled by their Miniserver hardware decisions though.  it's annoying they removed the analogue outs (so gen 1 - gen 2 needs an additional module for me) but at the same time It  surprises me that they didn't make the Miniserver completely modular when they updated to gen 2 so all the inputs/outputs were on extensions.   Even the compact keeps a couple of DI and DO. 

Yet at some point they did away with the Extension module (which I've got 3 of and will be really awkward to replace if any fails https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/extension/) 

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Friday, January 23, 2026 at 4:57:18 AM UTC-6 Simon Still wrote:

The part of the business I have difficulty with is that they have ongoing software development costs and support costs for installed systems, but no ongoing revenue streams from those systems. 

 

I hate stuff on subscriptions.

I would not like a subscription that was required to keep the existing stuff running. But I would be in favor (again, with sufficient ROI) of a subscription to give access to the latest major release (and chain of minor releases from it). Or, have to purchase each major release (including minor releases). This approach is widely used by applications on Apple stores. In this way, what you have "always" keeps working and it's entirely optional if you want to keep up with releases. This would imply that the core software running in the Miniserver & Extensions is always free. But some revenue stream to keep developing Config and user apps. The core software should be lifetime with the purchase of the hardware.

They're never going to be a true retail player as their approach is hard wired.  Regulations mean that in most markets a Loxone system really needs to be installed by an electrician - it's not trying to be an 'over the top' DIY retrofit solution. 

Depends on the situation I imagine. In the USA homeowners can do wiring of AC. Otherwise, yes, permit and electrician. But that is only for AC circuits. In my case, there are no Loxone parts with AC connections - everything goes through DMX panels and 3rd-party relays for AC.

 

Hardware evolution is just fine for me.  This is for running a home/business - it needs to be stable technology and run for many years.  What do you think an updated MS would include?  

Haven't really thought about it. But for starters, increased memory/performance could enable more advanced software. For example, macros and usable custom programming blocks (I say useable because PicoC ain't it).

At some point there will have to be a divergence of hardware capabilities that enables new software functionality. That is, features that will not work on older systems. We're 15+ years into this cycle of fully compatible hardware. By the time they could fully transition it would be 20. That's a reasonable trade-off between stability and evolution. Wait too long and it will look as obsolete as most the alarm panels in the industry.

 

I'm slightly puzzled by their Miniserver hardware decisions though.  it's annoying they removed the analogue outs (so gen 1 - gen 2 needs an additional module for me) but at the same time It  surprises me that they didn't make the Miniserver completely modular when they updated to gen 2 so all the inputs/outputs were on extensions.   Even the compact keeps a couple of DI and DO. 

I agree. I see the need for a smaller unit with minimal basic interfaces for situations that require nothing more. But the top model should be less built in and more modular.

I've been using Control By Web X-400 series for some expansion. Picture is at install time before they were wired up. Both the 8-output relay and 8-digital-input modules are USD$180.That's a nice system - more compact and less expensive (for larger setups).

 

Yet at some point they did away with the Extension module (which I've got 3 of and will be really awkward to replace if any fails https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/extension/) 

Not sure which discontinued extension you refer to.

 

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Friday, January 23, 2026 at 10:16:18 AM UTC-6 Jedi Tek'Unum wrote:

Haven't really thought about it.

A tangent...

What possible reason could there be for there to be no Loxone Air module that plugs in to a wall socket and switches/dims what is plugged into it? (Other than it probably costing USD$200+.) That is the absolute bottom of the barrel basic automation part! Other vendors are capable of making modules with adapters for various international socket types.

No matter how much hard wired stuff I install there is always the time when I want just one more in a place that I can't, or don't want to, wire to.

Now maybe they actually recommend 3rd party devices, like Sonoff, for that! Which would be preferred - if they actually supported the interface (ie UDP Virtual Output).

 

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Friday, January 23, 2026 at 4:57:18 AM UTC-6 Simon Still wrote:

incidentally - same blog says 100k installs after 10 years, 120k only a few months later so growth had accelerated a lot. 

20% in 6 months.

They would need to compound at 20% annually since 2020 to reach 300K installs now. 60k in 2025. At the $75M revenue that is only $1,250 per installation.

Something big doesn't add up.

[Simon Still]

The discontinued extension was the one I linked to the knowledge base for. - 

DI 12 

AI 4  

Ao 4 
DO 8 relays at 240v 5A. 

[Simon Still]

I think dimming on a socket it problematic because you could plug in something other than a light.  You could build a Nano dimmer air into a backbox to create a dimming light only socket

There are Air sockets for UK and the various different plugs in use across  Europe - I'm really surprised there isn't a US one but that perhaps reflects that's Loxone hasn't seriously entered the US market yet (which would also be relevant for size of co/number of installs).  

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Friday, January 23, 2026 at 12:19:00 PM UTC-6 Simon Still wrote:

The discontinued extension was the one I linked to the knowledge base for. - 

DI 12 

AI 4  

Ao 4 
DO 8 relays at 240v 5A. 

Oops! Sorry. I just glanced at it and thought it was a Miniserver! Yeh, must be blind to have not seen the big bold Extension text 🤷 

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Friday, January 23, 2026 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-6 Simon Still wrote:

I think dimming on a socket it problematic because you could plug in something other than a light.  You could build a Nano dimmer air into a backbox to create a dimming light only socket

Yeh, probably too much of an issue for a dimmer. The on/off in this form factor is for quick-n-dirty needs so don’t want to have to build. Sonoff or Shelly is probably the answer.

 

There are Air sockets for UK and the various different plugs in use across  Europe - I'm really surprised there isn't a US one but that perhaps reflects that's Loxone hasn't seriously entered the US market yet (which would also be relevant for size of co/number of installs). 

Took years to get US sized wall switches too.

 AI says they entered US market in 2017. What are they waiting for?