24v downlight alternative to loxone's

[Ray A]

Hi,  I am new to the Loxone network.    I am building a new house that I will install Loxone and the project will have around 150 downlight.  Has anyone used non LOXONE downlights as a less expensive method and how did they fair in cost, quality and performance.  

Appreciate any info and advise on this,  as this will be my first Loxon project that will also incorporate UFH.  So understanding the pros and cons would be a massive help.

cheers guys,

ray

[Duncan]

 some of your options are:

1) loxone downlights - expensive, easy to integrate with loxone or other dmx or knx pwm dimmers

2) 24v retrofit downlights - such as the voltus.de one
https://www.voltus.de/?cl=details&anid=c4fc08887bb27f9bd9ec89b52081163f
dimmable using pwm dc - eg loxone dimmer, other dmx constant voltage dimmer, knx constant voltage dimmer

advantage - fits in 50mm fitting - many choices for fittings, easy and smooth to dim
disadvantage - relatively expensive

3) integrated dimmable led downlight (comes with own driver)
relatively cheap

downsides - have to change all fittings at the same time if you replace/upgrade
dimmable with mains dimmers - not as smooth dimming maybe, need loxone or knx or dmx 240v dimmers

2) 240v gu10 retrofit dimmable leds in normal gu10 downlight fittings
advantages - massive flexibility in terms of bulbs and fittings, cheap, massive range of gu10 dimmable leds with different characteristics such as cri, output, white colour, beam angle, can upgrade bulbs cheaply without changing fittings as technology improves

downsides - needs 240v trailing edge dimmers such as loxone, knx or dmx so bulbs are cheaper but dimmers are more expensive than option 2), but more flexible towards upgrades and improvements as led technology improves such as rapidly improving cri and efficiency.


ive used gu10 fittings in my last 2 projects for clients, with a range of bulbs to suit such a 12degree spots, dim to warm with cri 95
as well as conventional push-fit slimline fittings such as
https://www.superlecdirect.com/p-amicgmw-ansell-icage-mini-ip20-50w-gu10-matt-white-gimbal-downlight/
these are cheap and have an incredibly low flush profile and a wide range of finishes as well as fire rated but vented open backs which keep the bulbs cooler

plaster-in recessed fitting for a real stealth finish:
http://www.mr-resistor.co.uk/trimless-downlights

high cri dimmable gu10 bulbs - these are not the cheapest but are high output, dim well and warm when dimming, high cri if 95
https://well-lit.co.uk/product/7w-dimmable-led-spot/

use these with either a loxone dimmer at around £100 per channel, or
£50-60 per channel knx dimmers such as theben dm 8-2 t around £480 for 8 channels, leading and trailing edge, 200w led per channel, din rail fitting
https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/5552368_-dm-8-2-t-knx-theben.html

£12 per channel dmx302, dmx 3 channel mains dimmer - trailing edge, 220w per channel, small din rail mounting - around £35 for 3 channels, but can be quite unreliable and you may have to swap few out before finding reliable ones.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DMX512-DMX-Triac-Dimmer-led-brightness-controller-AC90-240V-Trailing-edge-3CHx1A-/291707064734
dmx mains dimmer - very cheap, works quite but prone to sudden failure. - seems to be reliable if cold, such as the ones in my garage.

[Andrew B]

I have these and love them:  https://www.laurenillumination.com

[John Verdicchio]

Out of curiosity why 24V rather than 240V? Realise for LED strips 24V makes sense, but for downlights? The bulbs are much harder to come by (in my limited experience). You also have less choice of luminaires.  You have to factor in the cost of the transformers - say 5W per bulb -> 750W. I have some 150W 24V transformers and they cost £40 each. You'll need at least 5. So £200 on transformers. My main house lighting is 240V LED . Mostly GU10 with some sealed units in the kitchen. I've used a mix of 12V and 24V RGBW LED strips for the accent lighting, kitchen-under-cabinet.

Also, consider the installation costs if you are not doing it yourself. I built a sizeable extension myself (I'm not a builder) and I found it was cheaper to train to become a qualified electrical inspector than to pay an electrician to do it. Perhaps some of the professional installers on this forum will have different numbers, but the rate appears to be around £40 per double socket and around £50 per light-fitting.

[Simon Still]

On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 08:19:27 UTC, John Verdicchio wrote:

Out of curiosity why 24V rather than 240V?

See Duncan's comments above.  Dimming LEDs at 240v is expensive.  The cheap chinese dimmers are of dubious reliability and seem to have a bad effect on bulb life. Even with good dimmers it's difficult to dim low loads reliably (sub 10w - which is often what you need at low light levels).

 

On Monday, 15 January 2018 18:38:38 UTC, Ray A wrote:

Hi,  I am new to the Loxone network.    I am building a new house that I will install Loxone and the project will have around 150 downlight. 

Think about getting a lighting designer to look at your scheme, or at least buy a book (I found this to be useful https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bible-Home-Lighting-Lucy-Martin/dp/1845435109/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1KP3YST58CA4ZEFKYNY5) 

The current standard house developer option of a grid of fixed downlights in every room is harsh and uninteresting.  Using directional spots to light pictures or features and bouncing light off walls will give you a much more interesting light.

Some lighting suppliers will offer free design services if you're spending a lot of money with them - worth looking into.

To keep costs down, don't have lights that dim everywhere. After two years of living with our house, I've simplified our lighting scenes quite a bit.  The only rooms that really justify complex scenes are the kitchen, living and dining rooms. 

Bedrooms, hallways, bathrooms really only need a single lighting scene at full brightness (or scenes with different circuits that are either on or off).

Using 240v GU10s for these  you can swap out the bulbs to get the lighting level you want if you don't get it right first time.  

[Aaron]

Is there any consensus please on what is proving more effective and reliable for mains DMX dimming between the infamous Chinese 3 channel din rail dimmers and the NJD DPX12/4? While the NJD solution is obviously more per unit, price per channel is very similar (approx £18 per channel vs £12).

The NJD documentation I've found so far does not mention LED lights nor trailing edge dimming which of course the other does.

I remember threads previously where Duncan mentioned a DMX dimmer which is no longer available. Is this NJD a newer version or have I my wires crossed?

cheers

[Duncan]

the ndj dimmer is leading edge and was not available for a long time - not sure if it still is, but it makes some dimmable leds buzz quite loudly because they prefer trailing edge, and many leds dont play nicely with it so its a bit of a risk. the box is large and bulky as well which really doesn help.
on the plus side its rated at 1kw per channel, so is unlikely to die with a few dimmable leds attached

the most affortable dimmer that isnt the chinese 3 channel is knx - its the theben dm 8-2 T  which is around £700 in the uk or around £450 delivered from germany
https://www.theben.de/en/Products/Home-and-Building-control/KNX/Actuators/DM-8-2-T-KNX

this is a reliable flexible dimmer with 8 channels, does leading and trailing edge and 200w per channel of led lighting
its quite compact - a single 8ch dimmer takes the same space as 2 of the chinese 3 channel dimmers

the only downside is that you will have to get the basic ETS software and learn a little to program the unit, or get someone to do it for you

[Aaron]

Thanks Duncan, much appreciate you taking the time to respond and detail.

Presumably the Theben dimmer would match the Loxone units for quality but at half the size and cost per channel. Also reassuring to have a European manufacturer from a standards compliance / waranty perspective.

Considering the potential for the DMX units to fail (not sure if such a problem with the newer design) and costs of the DMX extension to interface, the Loxone native KNX solution seems pretty good value. Will need to factor in a KNX power supply.

I already have a couple of Loxone RGB Air and selection of nano relay / nano dimmers so with most things in the home automation space, a case of picking the right components for a particular scenario irrespective of protocol or manufacturer.

I have already read the instructions on another thread concerning ETS software and configuration so hopefully not something I'll find insurmountable and I know where to come if I get stuck! ;-)

[Duncan]

yes you are right - the quality is there, its compact, reasonable value for money, and a 2yr warranty on everything bought from europe.

ETS is easy for dimmers, its sensors that can be a lot more complicated. If your setup is using loxone as the control and knx devices as dumb sensors or actuators then most of the programming options in the dimmer are not required, such as the separate objects for on/off or the brightness feedback - i just use the single dimming object per channel each using a single group address (dimming value).

There are a variety of parameters for the dimming characteristics, called load selection. Choose 'RC load' rather than 'leds', as the 'leds' option turns the brightness higher to start, then dims down to the chosen value where as the RC load goes straight to the selected brightness.