US - fire/burglar alarm with central station monitoring...

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Looking for pointers on how to do fire/burglar alarm systems with central station monitoring for new construction in US. I want to have a rechargeable backup battery in a central location.

Since I'm doing new construction anything I do with smoke detectors is going to be closely scrutinized during inspection. They won't look kindly on a complex automation system that I installed and programmed.

I'm thinking I need a traditional 4-wire smoke setup with end-of-line and reversing relays. A Lead-Acid battery and charger is simple (for example Elk power supply/charger and battery).

The reversing relay is needed to reverse the polarity of the power which makes all of them sound. But what to use for triggering the relay? There has to be some simple logic to monitor the resistance on the alarm wires (shorted is alarm, open is fault, EOL resistor is normal). Power has to be temporarily removed to reset.

Of course this could all be driven by Loxone. But I'd prefer an independent system where the alarms work to code without the Loxone. The solution has to be certified for all codes that the inspector is going to look for. Home-brew circuits won't do.

Then there is the question of central monitoring services. I don't see how Loxone interfaces to them. The email/phone call is great but it isn't the protocol that central monitoring services use (at least not cheaply).

Unless I'm missing something it seems the only way to get what I'm looking for, at a minimum, is dedicated fire alarm panel like Fire-Lite or Silent Knight. Adding burglar moves to smarter panels. Possibly even to Elk or OmniPro, which of course overlaps most, if not all, of Loxone functionality.

I think part of the problem is that Loxone is so new to the US and hasn't fully adapted to requirements here. As an example, code requires hardwired power to smokes and all must sound at once so the Loxone Smoke Detector Air doesn't apply.

I thought I was sure I wanted to use Loxone. Now I'm not as certain.

[David]

Hi, just had the same with an extension in the UK. Regulation on smokes the same hence Loxone and Nest don't pass inspection. You have to have a dedicated system that is certified. 

Having said that I have used Loxone for lighting and heating and it is great. Good to install and easy to configure. The support from Loxone is also very good. 

Best hope for smokes and burglar alarm is to have an interface into the proprietary system, but not easy!

Good luck, David

[Kops]

The beauty of Loxone system is that it is (still) an open system and thus you're not limited to their branded products only. For instance, as a smoke detectors I used Orbis that works wired using 24V=. Similarly for motion detectors, I have good experience with Satel, their Aqua Ring S or Aqua S both work with 24V= , are absolutely silent and for reasonable price.

After experimenting with different 24V= UPS solutions for Loxone I would recommend Weidmueller UPS mounted on DIN rail etc. If someone still insist on integrating standalone certified alarm systems into Loxone, there are also ways how to do that (for instance for Paradox or Jablotron).

I don't live in States and thus don't know all your specific requirements but I am sure there must be some sort of solution for these as well.

Have a nice day.

[Karl Peterson]

So, at least in the US, short of a dedicate life-safety panel (such as Fire-Lite or Silent Night which are commercial-use-oriented) you are going to have an awfully hard time passing inspection with just an alarm panel. Even if it theoretically is correctly rated. 

That means that unless we are in a large commercial space and using one of the aforementioned commercial systems, there is going to be a fire alarm system installed with traditional kiddie or whatever ceiling mount detectors wired together with 14/3.

If you want further monitoring, you do that with a stand alone alarm panel which will have its own smoke detectors (typically only one per floor in a semi-central space).

This also covers things like OMNI and ELK or even loxone - they will traditionally have their own sensors installed alongside your conventional system. 

If you don't want them to have their own sensors, thankfully it is easy to monitor the "Traditional" fire alarm system in a code compliant way. Just throw an auxiliary relay module on it from the alarm vendor. This will give you a code compliant / UL Listed contact closure on alarm condition that is isolated from the rest of the fire alarm system.  

As for the rest of your message, I think it's important to take a moment and discuss loxone. What it is, and what it is not.

Loxone, the mini-server and software enviroment, is essentially a programmable logic controller of sorts. It doesn't inherently do anything, it purely provides a means to coordinate and control other systems and then present that information out in a digestible front-end. 

Some of the other loxone branded hardware (relay modules, dimmers, air and tree components) are "other systems" that loxone just happens to produce themselves for end-user simplicities sake. But don't mistake these "other systems" as marking the extent of the loxone systems usefulness. Loxone is strongest when coordinating and scheduling a lot of disparate systems.  Think less Omni and more Crestron. 

Now, just like Crestron, loxone isn't for everyone. Similarly, OMNI isn't for everyone either.

I think the real acid test is this:

When you define the extent of your automation, if it cleanly fits within the confines of one of the residential general purpose automation platforms (ELK, OMNI, etc) then that option will be more cost effective and easily understood by a wider audience.

However if your use case doesn't cleanly fall inside the confines of the preset functionality of a residential automation platform, then you should really look towards the next step. That step will be Loxone/Crestron/Control4/etc.

Take my use for example. 90% of what I am doing could fit on an OMNI Pro II /w OMNI-BUS relay/dimmer/switch modules. It would be a very good solution, and certainly more widely understood than my loxone one. But, that last 10% was incredibly meaningful to me. That meant I was going to need to deploy a Crestron system, but I both lacked the budget and also had concerns over being able to keep current on evolving front-end needs without significant ongoing expense.

So loxone it was/is.

Don't take any of this as a pardon to loxones shortcomings. They have a number. But be careful attributing to shortcoming what is actually just a side effect of it's underlying strengths.

Karl P

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Sunday, October 30, 2016 at 11:08:49 AM UTC-5, Karl Peterson wrote:

So, at least in the US, short of a dedicate life-safety panel (such as Fire-Lite or Silent Night which are commercial-use-oriented) you are going to have an awfully hard time passing inspection with just an alarm panel. Even if it theoretically is correctly rated. 

That means that unless we are in a large commercial space and using one of the aforementioned commercial systems, there is going to be a fire alarm system installed with traditional kiddie or whatever ceiling mount detectors wired together with 14/3.

If you want further monitoring, you do that with a stand alone alarm panel which will have its own smoke detectors (typically only one per floor in a semi-central space).

This also covers things like OMNI and ELK or even loxone - they will traditionally have their own sensors installed alongside your conventional system. 

If you don't want them to have their own sensors, thankfully it is easy to monitor the "Traditional" fire alarm system in a code compliant way. Just throw an auxiliary relay module on it from the alarm vendor. This will give you a code compliant / UL Listed contact closure on alarm condition that is isolated from the rest of the fire alarm system.  

The entry-level commercial-oriented fire-only panels are not terribly expensive. Not clear to me if you saying that they won't pass inspection for residential use.

There are 2 problems with the traditional residential alarms with auxiliary relay. First, there are batteries scattered around, potentially very high up, that need replacing annually. As a household approaching senior years we aren't going to be climbing high ladders and I'd rather not have to arrange others to do it. The second problem is communicating with a central alarm monitoring service. OmniPro supports that. Elk doesn't AFAIK.

Central monitoring support is a fundamental feature of a fire/burglary alarm system.

 

Loxone, the mini-server and software enviroment, is essentially a programmable logic controller of sorts. It doesn't inherently do anything, it purely provides a means to coordinate and control other systems and then present that information out in a digestible front-end. 

Yet it is marketed as including "home security" and for that matter "HVAC". Sure, it does some level of those.

Due to the flexibility and customization capability I'm certain it can interface to more specialized products that can do those things completely. HVAC, for example, can coordinate with the proprietary smart systems that are so common in the US. Primarily I'm trying to understand if there is a way to do the same for security.

From what I've found so far, security is mostly just like HVAC - a mostly closed proprietary system with little automation interface capability. Those fire panels could no doubt notify a Loxone system of a fire. If I then try to use Loxone natively for security then how do I do central monitoring integration? If I don't use Loxone for security then I need a smarter fire/burglar panel like an OminPro. Obviously powerful enough to integrate with Loxone but now the cost starts adding up. If I'm going to do that then I could do lighting on the OminPro and pretty soon I have a Loxone for the 10% you mention.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Loxone approach and want to figure out how to make it work for me.

I think what I need is a panel between a fire panel and an OmniPro but the key thing is that it have better than average automation integration capability. Basically all functions of the panel available to automation. I guess I'm going to have to dig to see what interfaces are available for the traditional security panels.

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Follow up to myself...

It appears that Interlogix/GE Networx (once Caddx) might be the solution. Seems well documented and has a home automation interface that sounds complete. Fairly inexpensive and might be the right slave to a Loxone system.

[tkn]

@Jedi - Figured I would ping you again and see if you had come up with a solution. Sounds like you were flirting with commercial level answers which, of course, expensive.

I have to have centrally monitored fire and burglar for my insurance requirements. And I am leaning Elk since it seems to be the closest to what I need.

I am struggling with this as well - I may not need the granularity you want on which alarm, but finding centrally monitored fire and burglar solutions seems overly difficult.

@Karl - What is the functionality you were looking for (the 10% you mentioned)

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

@tkn - I have not made any progress on this. We are in the bidding stage now.

I still don't understand what will pass inspection. @Karl seems pretty sure that nothing will without being totally redundant to the standard dumb setup.

I guess I will see when the electrician responds with their bid. I asked for System Sensor COSMO-2W and 2WTA-B detectors, 5601P and 5602 heat detectors, and a pair of COSMOD2W interface modules. It should be trivial to wire these to any fire-rated panel. Yes, I know that all zones must sound when one is triggered - should be trivial to wire that.

I really hate all the secrecy around this stuff. When I looked at the "code" it seemed to be very vague and I could see nothing about what I am proposing that would be noncompliant. So I suppose it comes down to the interpretation of the inspector. Why actually document what is and isn't when you can do it that way?!

If it turns out that my proposal - and in fact any commercial product now available - can't do what I want then I'm pretty upset with another pathetic industry. My requirements are quite simple. I want to know which floor triggered an alarm and I don't want to have to climb to each detector to replace batteries. It shouldn't be this hard.

[tkn]

Doesn't Nest Protect let you know where the alarm is sounding? So I don't think it is violating code to tell you which one is sounding.

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Doesn't Nest Protect let you know where the alarm is sounding? So I don't think it is violating code to tell you which one is sounding.

@tkn - Take a look at this thread over on cocoontech: http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/29800-alarm-system-for-new-loxone-setup/ 

Code requires all to sound. In a traditional wired setup the extra red wire is used for interconnect for that purpose. Using the traditional residential detectors there is usually a relay option available from the brand used that monitors that circuit and can forward the alarm to anything else. But every detector in the home is on the same wire so no way to know which one - or zone - triggered an alarm.

I did a quick look at Nest Protect and it seems they don't use the extra wire nor did I see anything about simultaneous sounding. They have to do it to comply with code. It must be done via RF.

I'm personally not a fan of "cloud" based systems. It appears everything Nest does requires their cloud. I'm suspect of something like that down the road - say 10 years; are they going to keep updating the app? Plus I don't see any obvious way to integrate that into a Loxone or any other system. Maybe they have a public API for their cloud. But if I want my setup to do other things - lights, etc - when an alarm goes off I don't want to rely on a working internet connection anyway.

Nest doesn't address the battery issue either. Although I appreciate that it doesn't chirp in the middle of the night!

High-end commercial systems use addressable detectors. $$$

So for me I need a small business type commercial system. I am hoping that Elk/DSC/<any> alarm panel that is fire rated combined with the System Sensor detectors will be acceptable. Karl seems to think it won't be. Over on cocoontech a poster, DELinstallations, is a professional installer; he pointed out some issues that have to be addressed but I don't think ever stated that it wouldn't pass in a residential setting or that a redundant dumb system was needed.

[tkn]

So I think they all sound, but they also tell you where the alarm that is being active is. That probably is sufficient for code.

I wasn't really suggesting Protect, but just pointing out there are solutions that do sound the whole system but also let you know where the fire is.

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 7:28:51 AM UTC-5, Jedi Tek'Unum wrote:

So for me I need a small business type commercial system. I am hoping that Elk/DSC/<any> alarm panel that is fire rated combined with the System Sensor detectors will be acceptable. Karl seems to think it won't be. Over on cocoontech a poster, DELinstallations, is a professional installer; he pointed out some issues that have to be addressed but I don't think ever stated that it wouldn't pass in a residential setting or that a redundant dumb system was needed.

Just following up for future readers.

I installed the System Sensor detectors and COSMOD2W discussed in this thread and connected to an Interlogix UltraSync Modular alarm system. My new construction inspector had absolutely no problem with it - he didn't even want to test!

In the interest of full disclosure, if you install COSMOD2W without further considerations you will have multiple events from your panel when alarms are reset. That is because the act of resetting the COSMOD2Ws will make the CO2 and Trouble zones trigger (unfortunately the somewhat brain damaged designs require a power cycle on the COSMOD2W). Not a show stopper but clearing a smoke alarm means clearing several zones. Apparently there are some panels that are capable of recognizing this situation and can be programmed to behave better. In my case I've installed several relays that should achieve the same thing (I'm not ready to post the wiring/design of that until I can test it further). I agree that its all a hack and truth is that the alarm industry does not really have a good solution for this type of use case (other than buying high-end addressable detectors and panel).

As for overall opinion... the alarm industry is full of outdated mediocre crap. The UltraSync is somewhat more appealing from a modularity and price perspective. The human interface options are better than a bare bones panel but that isn't saying much. Its difficult to configure unless you are versed in the cryptic lingo of archaic alarm systems. Integrating with an automation system appears to be impossible at this point.

I would give the System Sensor detectors high marks. I would give the COSMOD low marks; requiring a power cycle and disruption of other zone outputs for a reset is incompatible with most alarm panels. Not their fault that panels are stupid but that is the state of things.

The alarm industry needs a major reset for the 21st century. And in case it isn't obvious, Loxone is even worse in the alarm category.

[David Wallis]

You can however if using firex smokes, buy their relay and link to an input on the miniserver.

[Jedi Tek'Unum]

Most brands have a relay available.

In my case it would not have helped. That only works if you can live with a single input to Loxone indicating a smoke alarm. In USA, all detectors/alarms in the home must sound when any of them are triggered so there is only 1 "zone". I needed a zone for each floor. As far as I'm aware, there is no supported way to detect more than one zone yet have all of them sound with these types of smokes.