Chaos Space Marines

[Alex Hagerman]

Same idea as with the Space Marines, however I have an even greater dis advantage as I don't know much about the CSM special weapons/artefacts/daemon abilities so hopefully somebody can educate me about these things, what is wrong with the attached list, and what works best.

[Michael Schweizer]

The list looks solid. My only question is: Would you plan to camp those Chaos Marines on objectives in the back? Otherwise, they are going to take a little bit to be effective. Otherwise, the list looks potent and could dish out a LOT of pain. 

[Michael Schweizer]

Actually, I would drop one of the Terminators so that the Lord could ride with that unit in the Land Raider. I would also drop the combi-weapons on the Aspiring Champions. Then you could give the Lord and the Terminators Mark of Nurgle so they all go up to T5.  Give the Defiler a Havoc Launcher (if the plan is to let it sit back, might as well). Take the Dirge Caster off the Defiler. 

All that should leave you with 12 points, so either throw a Havoc Launcher on the Land Raider or give the Lord a Gift of Mutation (those are usually fun, plus with this upgrade you re-roll Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis) and live with the fact that you have 2 unused points. 

[Michael Schweizer]

I should mention: You only re-roll Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis on the Chaos Boon table for the Gift of Mutation when rolling for that Gift of Mutation. If you happen to slay an enemy character in close combat and get either Spawnhood or Dark Apotheosis, you have to stick with it. If you don't have a Spawn or Daemon Prince model, your Champion of Chaos gets removed from play.

[Alex Hagerman]

I probably wouldn't put them too far in the back, I would try to put my objective or mid field or on the other players side of the table and move the marine blobs across with the land raider and helldrake when it comes on. By doing that hopefully the oblits and the defiler could sit in the back away from the core of the field about to use their range to kill stuff and hopefully not be killed between armor, toughness, and saves. 

[Alex Hagerman]

That makes a lot of sense. Can Nurgle assault as normal? I know terminators can't sweeping advance so that's not a big deal, but I was curious if Nurgle affected anything in assault besides your toughness. Agreed T5 terminators would be brutal. Can you fill me in on what some of the gifts of mutation are? I don't know much about them, but it sounds like that would be a really good choice. When do you roll on the gift of mutation chart? When you slay any model?

[Michael Schweizer]

You get +1 Toughness for taking Nurgle, and if you put it on a psyker, they have to generate at least one power from the Nurgle psychic discipline. No downside :)

If you take a Gift of Mutation, you roll for it before deployment. Pick one D6 as the tens, and another D6 as the ones. Then you roll on the Chaos Boon Table and take whatever roll you get (minus the Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis I mentioned before, but you only ignore those when rolling for Gifts of Mutation). 

In terms of during the game: Any model that has the Champion of Chaos special rule that slays an enemy character in a challenge rolls on the Chaos Boon Table after slaying the enemy character in a challenge. You do the same as above, except now you keep Spawnhood (the model turns in to a Chaos Spawn) and Dark Apotheosis (the model turns in to a bare bones Daemon Prince--no wings, power armor, etc. If the model had a Mark of Chaos and turns into a Daemon Prince, the Daemon Prince is a Daemon of ______ <-- whatever Chaos god the model had a Mark for). 

Examples of Boons from the Chaos Boon Table: 

Result, Name: Effect
11-16, Unworthy Offering: No reward
23, Warp Frenzy: +1 Attack
33, Crystalline Body: +1 Toughness
35, Mechanoid: Armor save improves by 1
41, Witch-Eater: Passing a Deny the Witch roll makes the enemy Psyker take a S6 AP2 hit.
52, Gun Morph: A ranged weapon has +1 Strength. (on the model, not any ranged weapon in the army)
63, Masochism: Feel No Pain
64, Multiple Rewards: Roll another D3+1 times on this table; re-roll Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis results.


Really, there isn't anything bad on the table other than Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis. I suppose no reward is bad as well. Other than those, everything else is beneficial. 

[Michael Schweizer]

Here's a 1500 (1499) point list I recently took against my brother's Space Marines:

HQ

• Lord - 137 points
  Base cost: 65 points
  +Terminator Armor - 40 points
  +Combi-Melta - 7 points
  +Mark of Khorne - 10 points
  +Gift of Mutation - 10 points
  +Meltabombs - 5 points
  +Veterans of the Long War - 5 points
  
  
• Sorcerer - 172 points
  Base cost: 60 points
  +Terminator Armor - 25 points
  +Combi-Melta - 7 points
  +Mark of Nurgle - 15 points
  +Gift of Mutation - 10 points
  +Veterans of the Long War - 5 points
  +2 Master Levels - 50 points

Troops

• 
  
• x10 Marines - 262 points
  Base cost: 75 points
  +5 Marines - 65 points
  +Plasmagun - 15 points
  +Meltagun - 10 points
  Aspiring Champion w/
  +Power Sword - 15 points
  +Plasma Pistol - 15 points
  +Meltabombs - 5 points
  Entire squad:
  +Veterans - 10 points
  +Rhino w/ - 52
  Base cost: 35 points
  +Dozer blade - 5 points
  +Havoc Launcher - 12 points

• x10 Marines - 210 points
  Base cost: 75 points
  +5 Marines - 65 points
  +Flamer - 5 points
  +Meltagun - 10 points
  Aspiring Champion w/
  +Power Fist - 25 points
  +Plasma Pistol - 15 points
  +Meltabombs - 5 points
  Entire squad:
  +Veterans - 10 points
  
  

Elites

• x5 Terminators - 251 points
  Base cost: 95 points
  +2 Terminators - 62 points
  +2 Powerfists - 14 points
  +1 Combi-flamer - 5 points
  +1 Combi-melta - 5 points
  +1 Reaper Autocannon - 25 points
  +Mark of Nurgle - 30 points
  +Veterans - 15 points

• x8 Khorne Berzerkers - 267 points
  Base cost: 105 points
  +3 Berzerkers - 57 points
  Aspiring Champion w/
  +Powerfist - 25 points
  +Plasma Pistol - 15 points
  +Meltabombs - 5 points
  Entire squad:
  +Veterans  - 8 points
  +Rhino w/ - 52
  Base cost: 35 points
  +Dozer blade - 5 points
  +Havoc Launcher - 12 points
  

Heavy Support

• Defiler - 200 points
  Base cost: 195 points
  +Warpflame Gargoyles - 5 points

Like I said, this should come out to 1499 points. The Chaos Lord attaches to the Khorne Berzerker unit and rides in the Rhino with them (two reasons the Berzerkers are at 8 models. 1) that is Khorne's number, and 2) I had to do so in order to fit the Terminator Lord in the Rhino with them since he takes two spaces with his Terminator armor). The Terminator Sorcerer attaches to the Terminator squad (hence why the Sorcerer and the Terminators all have the Mark of Nurgle), and they Deep Strike in whenever/wherever they can. Last game, mine landed right behind a Vindicator and it only took one shot from a combi-melta to cause an explode result! 

[Alex Hagerman]

How often do you find yourself becoming a spawn? And without any extra boons, etc. how good is a daemon price compared to the terminator lord?

[Alex Hagerman]

Do you find the rhino's typically help you get to an objective? My only concern with them is A: if you have 15 guys what is the Rhino for? I thought it could only take 10 B: Are you loosing shots from your marines while they are in the transport? That sorcerer/terminator unit looks freaking nasty definitely sounds like a good unit. How did the defiler perform? Any issues with a vehicle you could only target front armor on for this army?

[Michael Schweizer]

You have to roll a  21-22 on the Boon table to become a spawn, and it has never happened to me. 

and side-by-side (sortof), here's how a Daemon Prince and Terminator Lord stack up:

Terminator Lord: Base cost with Terminator Armor - 105 points
WS 6
BS 5
S 4
T 4
W 3
I 5
A 3
Ld 10
Sv 2+
5+ Invulnerable save due to Terminator Armor

Unit Type: Infantry (Character)

Daemon Prince (with nothing except what it HAS to take): Base cost before choosing what type of Daemon: 145 points

WS 9
BS 5
S 6
T 5
W 4
I 8
A 5 
Ld 9
Sv -

5+ Invulnerable save due to being a Daemon

The Daemon Prince has to be a Daemon of one of the four Chaos gods:

15 points -Daemon of Khorne: Furious Charge; Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh).
15 points -Daemon of Tzeentch: Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle); re-roll all saving throw results of 1.
15 points -Daemon of Nurgle: Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch); Shrouded; Slow and Purposeful
10 points -Daemon of Slaanesh: Fleet; Hatred (Daemons of Khorne); Rending; Run an additional 3".

Personally, I would add Power Armor for 20 points and Wings for 40 points.

[Alex Hagerman]

Definitely a nice stat line increase. Agreed on the power armor, I would hate something that powerful having only a 5+ invul for saves.

[Michael Schweizer]

Rhino's are extremely helpful in getting to objectives or just getting a unit across the board to go hit another unit in close combat (in the case of my Berzerkers). You can still take a Rhino as a dedicated transport for a 15 man Chaos Marine squad. Your squad won't be able to embark on it, but you can still have it, if for nothing else than to throw Havoc Launcher shots at the enemy. 

You do lose shots while your unit is embarked on the Rhino as the Rhino only has two(?) firing points, but it is still worth it if it means you get your unit to an objective. Footslogging is what gets Marines killed more than anything, in my opinion. 

In the list I posted above, the Chaos Marine squad that doesn't have the Rhino sits back and holds an objective while the other squad rolls forward with the Berzerkers to try and disrupt the enemy and potentially take an objective on the other side of the table. With my Terminator Lord having the Mark of Khorne, my Berzerkers become Troops as well, so if need be I can run them to an objective (if I don't have them going around slaughtering the enemy troop choices). 

The Defiler worked out VERY well for me last game, as I killed an entire loyalist Marine squad in one shot. Gotta love Strength 8, AP 3 pie plates! It also did a fair amount of damage against a dreadnought and a scout squad in cover.

The Mark of Nurgle Terminators with the Mark of Nurgle Terminator Sorcerer was very deadly (I didn't lose a single model from that unit). 

The biggest issue my list has is that I have to get very close to do anything to AV14, even AV13 can be a pain to take down (though, not as much as AV14 obviously). 

And I would take Obliterators and a Heldrake, but I don't have either :(

[John Marshall]

Mike have you considered working in a palaquin instead of terminator armour?  The extra wounds and attack are nice, granite you have to take a sigil to get the invul back.  So your out another 40 pts but he's real nasty then!  

Thanks

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[John Marshall]

You don't get to kit the Daemon Prince out as a boon though right?

Thanks

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[Michael Schweizer]

Correct, if the Daemon Prince comes from rolling on the Boon Table, he is just bare bones. He becomes a Daemon of whatever Chaos god your model had a Mark of prior to turning in to a Daemon Prince (if the model had a Mark at all), but nothing more than that.

And I haven't really looked too much in to running a palanquin of nurgle. I might have to, though. Most of the pictures of one I've seen since you mentioned it look awesome. I need to get some more Chaos Marines and paint them up like Plague Marines (no way I'm paying more money than I need to for Finecrap Plague Marines when I can buy regulars and greenstuff them if I want to). 

[Alex Hagerman]

Mike, while I in no way can defend finecast, if you get a bad model make sure to let them know, Josh and I have both had a model replaced and got to keep the original. I know there are mixed feelings on the subject but just wanted to let you know if you ever get a model that had a bad mold.

[Alex Hagerman]

I really like Oblits having seen them play a few times now they have the weapon choice which is nice and they are hard to kill. Obviously the helldrake is a beast as well. Out of curiosity whats your normal tactic/move with a rhino? Do you flat out first turn and pop smoke?

[Michael Schweizer]

Did my last post not go through? :(

Basically I said I'd rather pay $37.25 for some regular Chaos Marines and nurglify them than pay $45.00 for only 7 plague marines. I need more regular Chaos Marines anyway as I only have two squads of them so far.

As far as Rhino tactics go:

It really depends on deployment and game type. Assuming objectives (as most games types have them), I try to rush towards objectives with them if I have regular Chaos Marine squads inside. As the case was with my last game, I had Khorne Berzerkers and a Mark of Khorne Terminator Lord in one Rhino, so their mission was to rush towards enemy troops and take them out. 

Assuming the Rhino's make it to their targets, the troops hop out and I use the Rhino as cover/enemy line of sight blocker for them. 

[Alex Hagerman]

Nope makes perfect since on the cost difference, I would much rather get more units per $ as well. You might watch reddit swap also plenty of units get sold on there at a great price. Also with rhino's do you tend to deploy them all the way out? Seems like I have seen people only deploy them halfway in (6" into their deployment zone) and move 6" first turn, can you shed some light on that for me as I always thought the flatout plus smoke would be better if you are trying to get close, but I don't use dedicated transports at all in my Tau list.

[Michael Schweizer]

Sorry for the delayed response:

I guess it depends on how close you can get to an objective in your first turn. If you can't make it quite there, go as far as you can in the movement phase towards it, then pop smoke. What you are saying makes sense and I don't know why more people don't do it. A 5+ cover save is better than nothing! If I can get my troops from the Rhinos at least close enough to where they need to be, then I start shooting the Rhino's weaponry (the Chaos Rhinos come with Combi-bolters and mine each have a Havoc Launcher as well). If my Rhinos get Immobilized along the way, then they just become a stationary Havoc Launcher platform for me until either the game is over or it gets destroyed/wrecked. 

It sucks that if your opponent blows up a Rhino, he/she gets First Blood, but you have to just kinda accept that and do your best to get your embarked units to where they need to be. They won't always make it to their objective, but if you can at least move them 12" in the right direction, it is better than them having to have foot slogged that 12" out in the open. 

[Alex Hagerman]

Not a problem just got back from vacation. That makes sense to me. Plus the Rhino's are cheap. As long as first blood is a known risk then I can see the reasons to take them. I will ask I've seen varying numbers used on the field. I think my max would be two, but would you ever run 4 or more?

[Michael Schweizer]

In a larger game I might run 4. Have two squads of Khorne Berzerkers and 2 squads of regular Chaos Marines in them and rush the Berzerker Rhinos straight towards the enemy with the Chaos Marine Rhinos moving behind them to secure objectives and get some potential cover. I wouldn't send any more than 2 Chaos Marine squads forward in Rhinos, though. Again, assuming a larger game, I'd like to keep a squad or two back holding objectives on my side of the board. The Chaos Space Marines have plenty else in their codex to go after enemy targets with. I suppose I could always just use cultists to hold objectives on my side of the table, but their so squishy I try not to rely on that tactic. 

[Michael Schweizer]

they're* 

lol what the hell was I thinking typing "their"

[Alex Hagerman]

Whats the min/max difference between marines and cultist (min squad max squad size and cost)

[Michael Schweizer]

Minimum squad for Chaos Marines is 5, max is 20. Min for Cultists is 10 and max is 35.

Chaos Marine min cost: 75 points; max cost: 270 points (this is without adding special/heavy weapons and whatnot).

Cultist min cost: 50 points; max cost: 150 points (again, without adding weapons or Marks or anything).

But comparing stat lines to one another is:

Chaos Space Marine:
WS4, BS4, S4, T4, W1, I4, A1, Ld 8, Sv 3+
Aspiring Champion:
WS4, BS4, S4, T4, W1, I4, A1, Ld 9, Sv 3+

Chaos Cultists:
WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld 7, Sv 6+
Cultist Champion:
WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A2, Ld 8, Sv 6+

So overall, yeah you might have 35 cultists in a unit, but 20 Chaos Marines are much more survivable. 

[Michael Schweizer]

And Chaos Cultists don't have a Mob Rule type of thing like Orks do, so if you kill 9 of them, they have to test Morale. Imagine having 35 models sitting on an objective in the back near a table edge, losing only 9 of them, and potentially have the other 26 tuck tail and run off the board!

[John Marshall]

And now we know why John loves

Zombie!

Thanks

On Sep 22, 2013, at 2:36 PM, Michael Schweizer <masch...@gmail.com> wrote:

And Chaos Cultists don't have a Mob Rule type of thing like Orks do, so if you kill 9 of them, they have to test Morale. Imagine having 35 models sitting on an objective in the back near a table edge, losing only 9 of them, and potentially have the other 26 tuck tail and run off the board!

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[Michael Moser]

Doesn't Typhus give them Fearless?

[Michael Schweizer]

Fearless, Feel No Pain, Slow and Purposeful, and they cannot purchase options (Zombies are close combat only units, duh haha).

[John Marshall]

Yes and any cultist played can be a zombie not just one unit - my problem is they aren't allowed to purchase options aka mark of nurgle 

Thanks

On Oct 7, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Michael Schweizer <masch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fearless, Feel No Pain, Slow and Purposeful, and they cannot purchase options (Zombies are close combat only units, duh haha).

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