Two elevens LM for sale

[joaovc]

Check them out:

1. http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C77913

2. http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C78254

Are these genuine?

[Stewart Smith]

Interesting, the first car has fuel lines routed through the radiator
ducting? Or ....I did not see it right. The second has a non-Lotus chassis
number....maybe Victor knows the cars.

Stewart

--------------------------------------------------
From: "joaovc" <zjo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 3:33 AM
To: "Lotus History" <Lotus-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Two elevens LM for sale

[John Donohoe]

It looks like the green one comes with an original aluminum hard top???

John D.

[Lotus Eleven Register]

The cars are the real thing. The green Eleven (#248) was once owned by
E. McFaddin Parker in South Carolina, and known to the Lotus Eleven
Register in the 1970s. It traveled to the UK and in the late 1980s
was sold by Michael Lavers to owners in Italy who had it restored. The
hardtop was on the car when it arrived in the UK and could have been
on it for many years. This top opens like a gullwing, with dual hinges
in the center. To my eyes it has always resembled the hard top
available as an option on the Berkeley sports car. It might have been
sold by Lotus but it wasn't the same as what Lotus advertised.

The alloy car is said to be ex-Ron Gammons, and may have also come out
of the USA in the 1980s. Unless I'm mistaken, this one may have raced
with a Saab engine and had fiberglass panels when last seen in the US.
A photo of it appeared either in Classic Car or Thoroughbred & Classic
Cars about that time. The 'chassis number' shown in the listing is not
correct in any event. Victor and others are looking into that.
Hopefully it won't remain a mystery.

One of the funny things that happened when vintage car prices
skyrocketed in the late 80s was that Elevens with an actual identity
sometimes changed hands so fast that "papers", tags and memories got
lost. We have records and continuous histories from the seventies of
some cars that seemed to vanish later, then "unknown" but clearly
geniune cars that emerged from a restoration. The question that
started this thread wasn't asked often until sellers started getting
careless with identities.

Jay

[Roderick McLellan]

The first one appears to have an extended passenger side pedal box.  Any idea why?

[John Watson]

Too many 'mays' for my liking! For the sort of money it is likely to make, I'd like more certainty! For me there is a big difference between 'the real deal' and a car that isn't. JWW

[Stewart Smith]

The photos of the engine show a nice timing gear arrangement......I wonder if this is available in lieu of the chain.....? Always looking at improvements...

 

Stewart

[Lotus Eleven Register]

"The first one appears to have an extended passenger side pedal box.
Any

idea why? " -- R McL

A photo from a few years ago show a flat (normal) panel at the front
of the passenger footwell, and one of the Italian owners scrunched
into that side. Apparently he saw no problem in adding legroom this
way. Better than shortening his legs, right?

"Too many 'mays' for my liking! For the sort of money it is likely

to make, I'd like more certainty! " -- JW

We agree. It certainly isn't the chassis number given in the listing.
I don't know how many Elevens Ron Gammons has owned but he had a real
one that left the USA as I described. Questions about that car have
bounced at me a few times in recent years. This car appears to be the
same one and I have no reason to think it isn't. Nonetheless, when the
auction inquiry reached me I deferred it to Victor who is in a better
position to know what's been going on with it in the last 20 years.

Jay

[Gary Anderson]

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/new/563951.jpg   Hi Stewart    This engine appears to me to be missing the crankshaft timing gear and the crank snout does looks a bit odd. The stand off for the timing chain tensionier is installed but it is missing the jackshaft double sprocket and  timing chain. I don't believe anything fancy is going on here.                                              Gary --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Stewart Smith <56...@msn.com> wrote:

From: Stewart Smith <56...@msn.com> Subject: Re: Two elevens LM for sale

To: Lotus-...@googlegroups.com Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 12:48 PM The photos of the engine show a nice timing gear arrangement......I wonder if this is available in lieu of the chain......? Always looking at improvements...

[Gary Anderson]

I've been thinking about the odd crank snout and I think there is a spacer installed there to use the narrower bearcat 85 outboard crank gear. less friction?                                           Gary --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Gary Anderson <garyea...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Gary Anderson <garyea...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Two elevens LM for sale To: Lotus-...@googlegroups.com Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 2:14 PM

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/new/563951.jpg   Hi Stewart    This engine appears to me to be missing the crankshaft timing gear and the crank snout does looks a bit odd. The stand off for the timing chain tensionier is installed but it is missing the jackshaft double sprocket and  timing chain. I don't believe anything fancy is going on here.                                              Gary --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Stewart Smith <56...@msn.com> wrote:

From: Stewart Smith <56...@msn.com> Subject: Re: Two elevens LM for sale To: Lotus-...@googlegroups.com Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 12:48 PM

The photos of the engine show a nice timing gear arrangement......I wonder if this is available in lieu of the chain.......? Always looking at improvements...   Stewart

[Roderick McLellan]

The cam gear looks a little wider and the snout does look different.  Well different compared to this:

 

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/HockeyRoddy/ElevenProgressNov08041.jpg

[Vic Thomas]

Dear Stewart
The first car Chassis 246 was last in the US according to my records.
I think they must supercool the gas before it gets to the Carbs !!
Either that or it is mixed with oil from the oil cooler.

The second car is a genuine XI, imported to the UK with
a Saab 2 stroke engine. It has no original Lotus chassis number but
apparently the chassis plate was retained by a previous US owner.
Anyone know about a Saab XI in the us? We need history on this car.
Best regards
VFT

[boben...@netscape.net]

Vic,

a Saab 2 stroke engine. It has no original Lotus chassis number but

apparently the chassis plate was retained by a previous US owner.

Les Gaylord ran 202 with a SAAB from ca. 1962-80. He might know of other SAAB Elevens.

Bob

Bob Engberg
PO Box 1984
4824 Pine Ridge Avenue
Julian, CA 92036
boben...@aim.com

---

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

[Vic Thomas]

The "second car" is very genuine, no
one would have faked the mods and condition when I first saw it.
Have known it ever since.

VFT
----- Original Message -----

From: "Lotus Eleven Register" <Jays...@aol.com>
To: "Lotus History" <Lotus-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Two elevens LM for sale


>

[Vic Thomas]

Dear Stewart

This is the standard Climax gear drive

to the Jackshaft. A steel gear is essential,instead of the fibre original.

The chain goes on up from there.

Best Regards

VFT

[Stewart Smith]

After building three engines one would think that I would recognize it....I guess it's been a while. The gear looked so new and shiny!

 

Stewart

[boben...@netscape.net]

The first one appears to have an extended passenger side pedal box.  Any idea why?

It would be a good place to move the battery as mid-chassis is a better place to put 20 pounds than the left rear of the car. Bob

Bob Engberg
PO Box 1984
4824 Pine Ridge Avenue
Julian, CA 92036
boben...@aim.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Stewart Smith <56...@msn.com>
To: Lotus-...@googlegroups.com

[Stewart Smith]

Or the a gas tank. Too bad we don't have the car around to tear it apart and really give a going over......at Laguna or Sears.

[roger Sieling]

Stewart, I thought the jackshaft gear looked a little thick too. The thing I thought really looked "special" was the 5 bearing cam carrier. Looks like there are two carriers there side by side and they look to be aluminum. Does one carrier go on top of the other? There are bores for 16 tappets there.

Look a little farther in this web site and there is another Eleven and even a 15 for sale too. Lots of stuff here

Roger Sieling

[Stewart Smith]

Hello Rodger,

 

There are a number of people making aluminum cam carriers, Arjay is one. The 5 bearing cam carriers are still available from the usual sources so I can not justify the extra expense. I looked at the two pieces as

the top and bottom half of the cam carrier. The aluminum is larger in section. I think.

 

Stewart

[Lyndsay Wood]

Hello All,

Question: I have now seen several 11's with the two oblong cut-out's in the aft end of the tailpiece, between the tail-lights. Besides looking neat, what was/is the purpose of these 'slots' or cut-outs please?

WarmRegards
Lyndsay

--- On Sun, 15/2/09, Stewart Smith <56...@msn.com> wrote:

> From: Stewart Smith <56...@msn.com>

[Stewart Smith]

to allow air to escape from inside the car...it's a high pressure area. Very
early cars didn't have them....you might have holes added to the bottom rear
tray.

Stewart

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lyndsay Wood" <lyn_l...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:58 AM
To: <Lotus-...@googlegroups.com>

[Lyndsay Wood]

Thunked so...

Many thanx Stewart, and all, a very informative site this, for a superb car!

[boben...@netscape.net]

Question: I have now seen several 11's with the two o

Air outlets. They were present on most LeMans models but not on the Club or Sports.

Bob Engberg
PO Box 1984
4824 Pine Ridge Avenue
Julian, CA 92036
boben...@aim.com

-----Original Message-----

[Vic Thomas]

Dear Lyndsay
I have been told that considerable air pressure builds up under the rear
body section with a deDion as a result
of the air scoops to the discs. Apparently backs flew of at one time.
So the reat holes are a safety feature as well as air
outlets.
The first 4 cars to have outlets were the 3 1956 Team
Elevens plus the Naylor Maserati engined car [now in
my collection ]. These were single large rectangular
holes and all different in exact shape.
After that the neat twin oval holes took over.
Regards
VFT

[Stewart Smith]

The cutouts are a weird thing. I have photos of a mess of elevens racing from Autosport magazine that shows half with the rear cutouts. A photo of Mike Anthony's eleven on its transporter without cutouts. A photo of an eleven with Chapman standing along side at a race meeting with out cutouts on an eleven with head fairing assuming it's a Lemans and then photos of my car ( a definite club) in Laguna Seca paddock in 1958 with cut outs and a photo of Marion Lowe's club in 57 or 58 with cutouts....Capel's book with a sports advertising without cutouts....and plenty of others with and without.

 

Could there have been an employee at W&P that was afflicted with adult attention disorder and forgot to do his job? Tail clam shells might have been mass produced and them installed willy nilly on the next chassis despite build classification?

 

Stewart

[roger Sieling]

Stewart,

I don't see how another piece machined with tappet bores in it would work, if put on top the cam. I suppose if the bores were large enough, it could be extra stiff to help control cam flex, but it's also it puts a limit on cam lift.

Roger

[Vic Thomas]

Dear Stewart

I agree the disposition of air holes is inconsistent.

Remember however that the type of screen

[single or full width] could be on any model.

It is commonly assumed incorrectly that single

seat equates to Le Mans.

I am sure you know that from 1956 the LM 24

hour race regs did not allow single seaters, so no XI

ran there so equipped.

Regards

VFT 

[Vic Thomas]

SIMPLE --- there are TWO five bearing alloy

cam carriers in the photo.

VFT

[Stewart Smith]

The one has studs protruding with alignment dowels that correspond to the carrier in back ...I see, after enlarging the photo, that they are the same with one having studs installed and one not. Arjay has a carrier that uses bearing caps like the steel version. I will send photos of their engine from a different email address....

 

 

Stewart

From: Vic Thomas

Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:27 PM

To: Lotus-...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Stewart Smith

Subject: Re: Two elevens LM for sale

[jentw...@aol.com]

Ingvar Lindquist had a Saab powered XI on the west coast in 1961.  He appears at Pomona in January and Las Vegas in December.

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