Future of this List?

[Jim G]

This list has been inactive for quite some time.  Should it be closed/removed/deleted?

Thanks,

-Jim G

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-11-19 at 10:53 -0800, Jim G wrote:
> This list has been inactive for quite some time. Should it be
> closed/removed/deleted?

It was established to discuss the project to continue the Kogswell P/R.
As that seems to have fallen by the wayside (a damned shame) I think
it's time to kill the list and face up to the truth.

[Longleaf Bicycles]

It was established to discuss the project to continue the Kogswell P/R.
As that seems to have fallen by the wayside (a damned shame) I think
it's time to kill the list and face up to the truth.

Hello all. Sorry it has been so long. I don't want to stir up any false hopes. Some significant, unexpected personal events happened in the last two years that have demanded a lot of my time. One of these things was serious illness in my family. Presently the illness is not an issue, and we have reason to be cautiously optimistic that it will not return.

Could I get your feedback on a couple things? 

I priced out a two-model P/R offering with an experienced project manager. I don't believe the frames can be produced well for less than $600 retail. I believe the rSogn is about the same price point. 

Having a bit of an insider's view at Kogswell and observing similar projects my biggest concern would be avoiding miscommunication between US based designers and the agents and manufacturer overseas. For this reason I would have to work with an experienced project manager. My intention for these frames would be to provide thorough integration in a production frameset. This would mean more fiddly details than a typical frame, which adds time and cost.

As we discussed, using the same frameset for a porteur and randonneur requires compromising the design for both. For this reason I looked into making separate P and R frames. The estimated startup cost was very high. My gut tells me that there is more demand for an R frameset.

Questions:

1. Do you think there could be enough improvement and/or differentiation between a revived P/R and the rSogn to justify another entry at the same price point in a niche market?
2. Would you prefer a P/R frameset with the compromises dual use entials, a dedicated R frameset, or a dedicated P frameset?

Thanks,

Anthony

[Ryan Watson]

Anthony,

I was interested in the new Rawland Stag, but cantilever brakes are a deal breaker for me. I'm probably in the minority on this, but maybe not the only one?

It seems like there are quite a few production 650B frames these days, but pretty much all use cantis. Perhaps there's room for one designed for long reach sidepulls or centerpulls?

I personally like the P/R concept with two fork options.

However, I have an Ocean Air Rambler in the works so likely won't be in the market for a new frame for a while, (but you never know!)

Ryan

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[ji...@yojimg.net]

On Nov 20, 2012, at 6:12 AM, Longleaf Bicycles <longleaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all. Sorry it has been so long. I don't want to stir up any false hopes. Some significant, unexpected personal events happened in the last two years that have demanded a lot of my time. One of these things was serious illness in my family. Presently the illness is not an issue, and we have reason to be cautiously optimistic that it will not return.

Very glad to hear that this has passed!

Could I get your feedback on a couple things? 

I priced out a two-model P/R offering with an experienced project manager. I don't believe the frames can be produced well for less than $600 retail. I believe the rSogn is about the same price point. 

Last I checked, the Rawland frames were ~$750.

Having a bit of an insider's view at Kogswell and observing similar projects my biggest concern would be avoiding miscommunication between US based designers and the agents and manufacturer overseas. For this reason I would have to work with an experienced project manager. My intention for these frames would be to provide thorough integration in a production frameset. This would mean more fiddly details than a typical frame, which adds time and cost.

Another option is to jump up to the next price point and attempt to have the frames made in the USA.  Ocean Air Cycles is using a new Portland-based production shop called, I think, Zen Cycles.  Their frames (TIG welded with a brazed fork crown) retail for $1400, including Paul Racer brakes.  If you could produce something at around the $1000 mark, I think that would be a compelling offering.

Yet another option is to find a smaller/lesser-known US framebuilder and have them do small batches of production runs.  This is how the Box Dog Pelican is built (Winter Cycles is producing the next batch of 6 frames), and also the MAP Randonneur, and the Boulder Bicycles frames (Waterford) are probably similar.

Admittedly, these are higher-priced production routes, but you'd (likely) have a better quality product, easier communication, maybe more visibility into delivery dates, and wouldn't have to deal with customs/shipping containers/etc.

As we discussed, using the same frameset for a porteur and randonneur requires compromising the design for both. For this reason I looked into making separate P and R frames. The estimated startup cost was very high. My gut tells me that there is more demand for an R frameset.

Possibly true, but the niche market (such as it is) is heavy with "R" type frames. (All the players I mentioned above.)  The ONLY frame that is porteur-specific (longer top tube, heavier tubing) that I can think of right now is the Velo Orange Polyvalent.  Fuji also makes a bike called the Porteur, but it's ignorable for this discussion.  ;)

Remember that when the first Kogswell P/R frames came out, the vast majority were built up as flat-handlebarred urban cargo bikes, not rando-type bikes.  Adding racks into the mix adds to this appeal, but also complicates things for you.  To that end, you might consider partnering with Haulin' Colin (he's made short runs of rSogn cargo racks and may for other frames) or CETMA or similar for racks -- they could build/sell them, to fit a Longleaf frame/fork.

Questions:

1. Do you think there could be enough improvement and/or differentiation between a revived P/R and the rSogn to justify another entry at the same price point in a niche market?

As I wrote above, the rSogn is fairly rando-specific, not porteur-intended.  Also, Sean tends to change things often, so the rSogn may not be around for long -- even now, the rSogn is sold out, and plans are in the works for a revised model called the Stag -- which is even more rando-specific (e.g. lighter tubing, no clearance for big knobby tires, etc.)

2. Would you prefer a P/R frameset with the compromises dual use entials, a dedicated R frameset, or a dedicated P frameset?

I would split the two.  A P should not have lightweight tubing, and probably a longer top tube, than an R.

Another thing to add to the mix:   Offer a model that's a fully-integrated, classic French Campeur complete with a second set of mixte-style seatstays.  Nobody's done that yet.  ;)

Or, punt all that and just build low-trail conversion forks and racks to fit popular frames (e.g. Surly LHT, Cross Check, old MTB frames, 700C-to-650B UJB conversions).  There seems to always be a simmering demand for those.

-Jim G

[Jim G]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 8:51:09 AM UTC-8, Jim G wrote:

Last I checked, the Rawland frames were ~$750.

Just to follow up:  The rSogn seems to be gone -- it's no longer listed on the Rawland website.

The Stag is the replacement offering.  It is currently available for pre-order, priced at $625.

http://www.rawlandcycles.com/store/index.php?strWebAction=item_detail&intItemID=3968

I suspect that this price will jump to ~$700+ after the frames land. 

The Nordavinden (lightweight 700C sportif) is currently offered at $725:

http://www.rawlandcycles.com/store/index.php?strWebAction=item_detail&intItemID=3960

-Jim G

[Steve Chan]

I'm of the opinion that the 650B Rando/All-Arounder marketplace is
pretty well covered, so I'm not just a contrarian for petty
contrarianism...

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Ji...@yojimg.net <ji...@yojimg.net> wrote:
> Another thing to add to the mix: Offer a model that's a fully-integrated,
> classic French Campeur complete with a second set of mixte-style seatstays.
> Nobody's done that yet. ;)

Matthew mentioned in the past that he never had any trouble selling
mixtes. I don't think anyone is selling a low trail mixtes.

A mixte porteur actually makes a lot of sense for all kind of
utilitarian reasons, though it may push some gender identification
buttons.

How hard would it be to spec a tigged mixte with the twin rear
tubes meeting the larger top tube in front of the seat tube?
Since Volagi has already pioneered that kind of joinery on some
prototypes, there must be people in Taiwan willing to do it.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/874048428/the-viaje-bicycle-engineered-for-adventure

My wife loves her low trail mixte, and gets lots of comments on it at work.

> Or, punt all that and just build low-trail conversion forks and racks to fit
> popular frames (e.g. Surly LHT, Cross Check, old MTB frames, 700C-to-650B
> UJB conversions). There seems to always be a simmering demand for those.
>

Is there enough money in it to be worth the effort, I wonder?

Steve

--
"Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a
habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel
Smiles

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-11-20 at 09:12 -0500, Longleaf Bicycles wrote:
>
> 1. Do you think there could be enough improvement and/or

> differentiation between a revived P/R and the rSogn to justify
> another entry at the same price point in a niche market?

Maybe it's just me, but the rSogn has such enormous clearances it seems
as though it's really more of a mountain bike, and looks just plain
ridiculous with normal road tires and fenders. Besides, there is no
more rSogn. There's something new coming, the Stag, but I was unable to
find much out about it other than that it too has an awfully long top
tube for a randonneur design.

So to me, the answer is YES.

As for the notion that the low-trail 650B randonneur market is "well
served," I just don't see it. Yes, the Boulder is great, and yes there
are some terrific customs like the MAP Randonneur Project out there.
But beyond that, what? The Pelican's 700C in anything but small sizes,
(also true of the still vaporware Ocean Air Rambler, not that that's
really a randonneur) and besides it's very limited production.

There's the VO Polyvalent, but that has an awfully long top tube for a
randonneur design, too, so it looks like it's really meant for
swept-back porteur style bars rather than drops.

Then, there's that rumored Soma "Grand Randonneur" that Velouria wrote
about last week
http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2012/11/low-trail-madness.html
which sounds a lot like what we'd hoped for when the Longleaf project
was first mentioned.

> 1. Would you prefer a P/R frameset with the compromises dual use

> entials, a dedicated R frameset, or a dedicated P frameset?

I think you can make a nice touring bike out of a P/R but the gen. 1
frameset is really too stiff to make a good randonneur. Perhaps that
explains why so many of the first gen. wound up as Porteurs. A porteur
benefits IMHO from a stiff frame in a way that a randonneur does not.

In plain language the horizontal dropout is a royal pain in the
a$$ if you are a derailleur user. It might be beneficial to an IGH
user, but is downright annoying to others. Not being able to install a
wheel with an inflated tire adds considerable hassle to fixing a flat
tire.

Also, the extra long top tube that works so well with porteur handlebars
means a drop bar user has to use an extremely short stem, and women, who
typically want a shorter top tube than men of the same size, simply
can't be fitted at all. (As noted above, that seems to be an issue with
the Polyvalent and the upcoming Stag as well.)

So I see a case for a dedicated P and a dedicated R, differentiated by
tube diameter, top tube length and dropouts. Along with the different
frames, you'd get different forks, the P fork having more trail than the
R fork. You could also equip those different forks with different rack
fittings.

And P's need P racks. Real ones, not vaporware ones.

[Jim G]

Steve Palincsar wrote:
> But beyond that, what? The Pelican's 700C in anything but small sizes,

Actually the Pelican is available in 650B in all sizes. As of the
last production batch, there are a couple of 60cm 650B frames hanging
in Box Dog right now.

http://www.boxdogbikes.com/products-bdb-pelican-geometry/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boxdogbikes/7449213856/

> Then, there's that rumored Soma "Grand Randonneur" that Velouria wrote
> about last week
> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2012/11/low-trail-madness.html

Hadn't yet heard of this. Might actually be interesting if
Mike@ReneHerse is involved.

Also good point about the vert vs. horiz rear dropouts w.r.t. fenders

> And P's need P racks. Real ones, not vaporware ones.

+1

-Jim G

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-11-21 at 15:05 -0800, Jim G wrote:
> Steve Palincsar wrote:
> > But beyond that, what? The Pelican's 700C in anything but small sizes,
>
> Actually the Pelican is available in 650B in all sizes. As of the
> last production batch, there are a couple of 60cm 650B frames hanging
> in Box Dog right now.
>
> http://www.boxdogbikes.com/products-bdb-pelican-geometry/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/boxdogbikes/7449213856/
>

Must be a recent change, and if you don't scroll down below the geo
chart you /still/ miss it.

> > Then, there's that rumored Soma "Grand Randonneur" that Velouria wrote
> > about last week
> > http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2012/11/low-trail-madness.html
>
> Hadn't yet heard of this. Might actually be interesting if
> Mike@ReneHerse is involved.

I agree. The Boulder is the real deal, and if they can approach that at
a Soma price, then wow!

> Also good point about the vert vs. horiz rear dropouts w.r.t. fenders
>
> > And P's need P racks. Real ones, not vaporware ones.
>
> +1

R's need racks, too, but at least the situation there is a lot better
now than it was for example when Riv brought out the Saluki.

[Ryan Watson]

On Nov 21, 2012, at 15:52, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

>
> (also true of the still vaporware Ocean Air Rambler, not that that's
> really a randonneur) and besides it's very limited production.

How is the Rambler not really a Randonneur? It seems like the ideal Randonneur to me. It's even got all the light wiring kajiggers. I've got one on order and have already seen photos of it being built, so it won't be vaporware for much longer! I think production is only limited by how many orders are placed.

Ryan

[Steve Palincsar]

AFAIK it's meant as a loaded touring bike, with a frame of greater
sturdiness than would be ideal in a randonneur. If the photo is any
guide, we might also see the same long top tube intended for use with
swept back bars that I mentioned as a potential drawback to the
Polyvalent, the P/R and the Pelican. "Square" is dandy for road racers
and bikes meant to be used with porteur bars, but presents fit issues
for use with drop bars for many people. (And, of course, it won't come
in 650B in the larger sizes.)

[Ryan Watson]

On Nov 21, 2012, at 16:44, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On Wed, 2012-11-21 at 16:35 -0700, Ryan Watson wrote:

On Nov 21, 2012, at 15:52, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

(also true of the still vaporware Ocean Air Rambler, not that that's

really a randonneur) and besides it's very limited production.  

How is the Rambler not really a Randonneur? It seems like the ideal

Randonneur to me. It's even got all the light wiring kajiggers. I've

got one on order and have already seen photos of it being built, so it

won't be vaporware for much longer! I think production is only limited

by how many orders are placed.

AFAIK it's meant as a loaded touring bike, with a frame of greater
sturdiness than would be ideal in a randonneur.

I don't think so. The tubing is 8/5/8 standard diameter at least on my 57cm frame, so flexier than a stock Boulder. Possibly flexier than your MAP, too, if the one I rode was any indication. 

 If the photo is any
guide, we might also see the same long top tube intended for use with
swept back bars that I mentioned as a potential drawback to the
Polyvalent, the P/R and the Pelican.  

I'm not sure what's generally considered "long" but a 56cm TT  in my size, which is ideal for drop bars for me. 

Geometry chart here:

http://oceanaircycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Matrix-large-1.jpg

(And, of course, it won't come
in 650B in the larger sizes.)  

But 650B in MY size and that's all that really matters ;-)

Cheers,

Ryan

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-11-21 at 17:10 -0700, Ryan Watson wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2012, at 16:44, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
>
>
> > On Wed, 2012-11-21 at 16:35 -0700, Ryan Watson wrote:
> > > On Nov 21, 2012, at 15:52, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > (also true of the still vaporware Ocean Air Rambler, not that
> > > > that's
> > > > really a randonneur) and besides it's very limited production.
> > >
> > > How is the Rambler not really a Randonneur? It seems like the
> > > ideal
> > > Randonneur to me. It's even got all the light wiring kajiggers.
> > > I've
> > > got one on order and have already seen photos of it being built,
> > > so it
> > > won't be vaporware for much longer! I think production is only
> > > limited
> > > by how many orders are placed.
> >
> > AFAIK it's meant as a loaded touring bike, with a frame of greater
> > sturdiness than would be ideal in a randonneur.
>
>
> I don't think so. The tubing is 8/5/8 standard diameter at least on my
> 57cm frame, so flexier than a stock Boulder. Possibly flexier than
> your MAP, too, if the one I rode was any indication.

Mine's 8/5/8 std diam.

>
> > If the photo is any
> > guide, we might also see the same long top tube intended for use
> > with
> > swept back bars that I mentioned as a potential drawback to the
> > Polyvalent, the P/R and the Pelican.
>
>
> I'm not sure what's generally considered "long" but a 56cm TT in my
> size, which is ideal for drop bars for me.

Based on this chart, just a little less than square. This is a LOT more
info that I have seen before, and I must say these specs look a lot more
attractive than the example shown in the Kickstarter photo.

> Geometry chart here:
>
>
> http://oceanaircycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Matrix-large-1.jpg
>
>
> > (And, of course, it won't come
> > in 650B in the larger sizes.)
>
>
> But 650B in MY size and that's all that really matters ;-)

And not in mine, which as you say, is all that matters.

[Longleaf Bicycles]

Much to mull over here, guys. Happy thanksgiving. I'll pick this thread up later tonight or tomorrow.

[rcnute]

I love the second-gen P/Rs. They were just great except for some of the manufacturing/off spec issues.  I feel like the $600 price point is very attractive to many and more folks would be likely to try such a bike than if it were $1K.  I would buy one for sure (to add to my two P/Rs, rSogn, and incoming Rambler!).

Thanks, Anthony and happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

Ryan

[Longleaf Bicycles]

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Daniel Victor <datadat...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

It's a busy time of year, but Anthony, have you given any of this thought?

Best,

Daniel

I have thought about this a good deal. I don't see myself pursuing this project in the near future. My wheelbuilding business takes up as much time and energy as I can devote to bicycles right now. If I were still riding a 650B rando bike for transport every day--or even often for pleasure often--I might have a little more love to give. But the move to a rural area and having two young children means I ride less and I almost always ride a Big Dummy so the kids can come along. I was hoping that moving to a rural area would give me more time to pursue projects like the P/R this since it would relieve me of the duties of running an urban repair shop. It hasn't worked out that way. 

Anthony