Internal Wiring

[Jim G]

Here's a thought on internal light wiring...

Several brands of 9/8" threadless headsets (e.g., FSA) now use a split
crown race with cartridge bearings. I haven't played around with this
yet, but I'm wondering if that split race leaves enough of a gap to
pass a narrow coax wire through the lower headset bearing -- meaning
you can run a light wire from your headlamp, into/through the headset
lower bearing, into/through the down tube via the vent hole at the
head tube, around/through the BB, into the left chain stay, and on to
your tail light via an enlarged vent hole near the dropout -- you
wouldn't need to drill any external holes in the down tube.

Thoughts?

-Jim G

[Anthony King]

The split is wide enough for s single strand wire, but it none of the
split races I've seen are thick enough that the wire wouldn't get
stuck in the bearing at the place where the bearing slides over the
split.

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Jim G <yoj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here's a thought on internal light wiring...

I'd also like fully-internal wiring, and it seems to me that the best
option is a carbon brush inside the headtube:
http://renehersebicycles.com/Rene%20Herse%20order%20info.htm

If the wire left the hub and directly entered the right fork blade
through the vent hole (enlarged) near the dropout, it could go through
the crown, up the steerer, bridged across the carbon brush, inside the
downtube, around the bottom bracket axle, and finally either up the
seat tube or into the rear fender channel.

[Anthony King]

The Herse carbon brush is very, very cool, but it requires a hole in
the steerer tube that lines up with the vent hole between headtube and
downtube--this complexity would increase the frameset cost
substantially.

The reasoning behind brazed ons external guides for the headlight
wiring is that unlike tailight wiring, headlight wiring is attached to
the light at one end. While it would be possible to splice a new
headlight into an existing, internally routed headlight wire in the
even the headlight need to be changed, I don't think this is the best
solution.

If you look at the P/R I modified I think you'll agree that the wire
running up the inside fork leg is very tidy. It also allows for more
than one exit point for the wire. On some builds the headlight wire
will need to travel up a rack support strut to the front of the rack.
On others it may need to go all the way up the fork blade. By placing
the three guides smartly, the wire can exit the appropriate guide and
head toward the headlight. If you have internal headlight wiring
you'll only have one exit point for the headlight wire--you don't want
to put extra holes in the fork blade.

[jim g]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Anthony King
<longleaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Herse carbon brush is very, very cool, but it requires a hole in
> the steerer tube that lines up with the vent hole between headtube and
> downtube--this complexity would increase the frameset cost
> substantially.
>

To keep things simple and costs down, I'd just add these anywhere on
the frame/fork/rack that's appropriate for routing lighting wires:

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/HYDRO-BRAKE-CABLE-GUIDE-ZIP.html

I'm not a big fan of closed loops for the reason Anthony mentioned
(cable connectors won't pass through them).

-Jim G

--
jimg at yojimg dot net

[Justin Miller]

A related issue, for internal rear light wires, is keeping enough
space in the bottom bracket shell for the wires to pass through.

The Shimano UNxx cartridge bottom brackets that I have tried do not
leave enough space, nor do Campagnolo UT/crank systems.

I am currently using a Dura Ace 7700 octalink bottom bracket, with the
plastic protective sleeve removed. It leaves enough room in the
bottom bracket shell for the wire, but does not seem like a viable
long-term solution because the bearings are more exposed to
contamination than with the sleeve.

I would be interested to know what others have tried, especially
square taper options.

Justin Miller

On Nov 26, 5:21 pm, jim g <yoj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Anthony King
>

> <longleafbicyc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Herse carbon brush is very, very cool, but it requires a hole in
> > the steerer tube that lines up with the vent hole between headtube and
> > downtube--this complexity would increase the frameset cost
> > substantially.
>
> To keep things simple and costs down, I'd just add these anywhere on
> the frame/fork/rack that's appropriate for routing lighting wires:
>

> http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/HYDRO-BRAKE-CABLE-GU...

[Anthony King]

This is an issue that I'll have to solve. I prefer to use the tough
Schmidt coaxial cable for internal tailight wiring. You don't want to
have to ever replace the wire. But as Justin mentions, most modern
cartridge bb's don't leave enough room in the shell for anything but
the single strand B&M wire. Ideas?

[Jacob Isleib]

Does the aluminum sleeve on the VO bb's function for anything?  I've replaced a faulty bearing on one of these and the sleeve seems like mere decoration.  Bearing stops are machined into the axle.

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[jim g]

Use a short length of ribbon cable around the BB?

[Eric Saner]

I had this same problem with a Phil Wood bottom bracket. I mentioned
it to Stephen Bilenky and he said that they cut a groove inside the
bottom bracket shell in to which a wire can be glued, allowing enough
room for cartridge bottom brackets. I'm currently using a single wire
that exits the down tube through a hollowed out M5 bolt on the third
water bottle mount under the down tube. The wire then has a short
exposed section before it runs up the inside of the fender.

-Eric

On Nov 27, 1:51 pm, jim g <yoj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Anthony King
>

[Will]

Seems to me that you could run electric wire very securely with brake
cable housing. It fits aesthetically with the rest of the control
routing, allows extreme set up flexibility, and excellent wire
protection. I see little advantage, and a lot of cost, running inside
the tubes. Brake cable housing is tough stuff.

[pali...@his.com]

Anthony, it looks as though your domain name registration has expired
(or not yet taken effect). The blog points to longleafbicycles.com
but that URL points to a generic Network Solutions page that claims
your registration expired on Nov 7th. This must have just happened,
because I was looking at the site yesterday.

[Anthony King]

Steve,

Should be back up in a couple of hours. I'm trying to change the
registrar and things haven't gone smoothly. Sorry for the
invconvenience.

Anthony

[Longleaf Bicycles]

Should be back up now. At least it is on my end.

I'll mention this in case it can save anyone else a headache in the future. If you ever purchase hosting and DNR through a reseller, make sure that they list you--rather than someone at their company--as the primary contact. Otherwise you'll find renewing or transferring the the domain name can be very frustrating.

Anthony

[pali...@his.com]

Not here, at least not yet, but since you know about it and the fix
will happen eventually, it's not a crisis. It can take DNS changes
quite some time to propagate. I was worried that perhaps you hadn't
been notified.

[Phil Miller]

On wiring,

I'd consider internal wiring only the front because that's where it
pays the most. Routing wiring up the fork is easy.
Routing to the tail light is hard. Also, battery powered tail lights
appear to last practically forever anyway. Powering two headlights -
one on each side - with internal wiring would give a great pattern,
especially if the lights were located beneath the racks or attached to
the forks using Paul Ind. lighting mounts or similar. The thing is
that lighting wattage and intensity is a moving target. Planet Bikes
just introduced a 2-watt, technical flashlights are at 3-watts and
moving to 4, and with battery life getting longer and longer, even
with these intensities, I don't think it's going to be long before we
see motorcycle-type headlights powered by SON28's. The thing is when
do you get on the bandwagon. Like computers of 15-20 years ago, some
boundary will be crossed when you really don't need more light, but
need a better pattern, or a better lighting angle to illuminate your
path. I see all of that advancement happening up front with the
headlight assembly in the foreseeable future. Brake lights? Well all
that takes is a signal, you don't need wiring for that. Wireless Bike
computers already transmit and receive signals. Could be that battery
powered tail lights could do the same, and simply transmit a signal to
increase intensity when brakes are applied. All that is beyond the
scope of frame building, but deciding what to invest in is important.
Internal Brake lines and deraileur lines are NOT going to change (that
I can see), so if you wanted to invest in some nifty "hiding"
features, I'd concentrate on those once the front lighting was
solved. Yeah, I know that some front lighting will burn out if you
don't hook up the tail lights too, but I wonder if those restrictions
will go away. Some lighting mfg's have already dispensed with that
problem, I think... Peter White would know more...

[Jim G]

(Note: I've changed the subject back to "Re: Internal Wiring")

On Dec 5, 5:55 pm, Phil Miller <philip_mille...@charter.net> wrote:
> On wiring,
>
> I'd consider internal wiring only the front because that's where it
> pays the most.  Routing wiring up the fork is easy.
> Routing to the tail light is hard.  Also, battery powered tail lights
> appear to last practically forever anyway.  Powering two headlights -
> one on each side - with internal wiring would give a great pattern,
> especially if the lights were located beneath the racks or attached to
> the forks using Paul Ind. lighting mounts or similar.

Some additional thoughts on this:

1) With the likes of the Schmidt Edelux, B&M Cyo, or Supernova E3 (and
E3 Triple!), you don't really need dual headlights these days.

2) Probably the best place to mount a single headlamp is in _front_ of
your front rack, because that eliminates any wheel shadow.

3) An easy way to accomplish #2 _and_ conceal the wiring is with an
Ebisu/Jitensha-style front light mount/fender-strut, such as this
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/2782987468_ff723e0d16.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/2774673899/

The strut is a ~10mm tube and the headlight wiring runs inside it from
the front hub. That strut can also serve as a mount for lowrider
pannier frames.

I don't know the "ethics" of copying this design from Jitensha, but
it's a dead-simple design to fabricate (just a U-bent length of tubing
with a cross member at the fender), and it covers many of the
parameters previously discussed.

> The thing is
> that lighting wattage and intensity is a moving target.  Planet Bikes
> just introduced a 2-watt, technical flashlights are at 3-watts and
> moving to 4, and with battery life getting longer and longer, even
> with these intensities, I don't think it's going to be long before we
> see motorcycle-type headlights powered by SON28's.  

If you've ever ridden in front of an Edelux or Cyo, you'd say we're
already there. I'm sure the E3 Triple is even brighter than an
Edelux, although I've never seen one in person/action.

> Internal Brake lines and deraileur lines are NOT going to change (that
> I can see), so if you wanted to invest in some nifty "hiding"
> features, I'd concentrate on those once the front lighting was
> solved.  

It seems that a well-placed waterbottle braze-on through the downtube
near the head tube would allow the wire to enter the frame, and then a
hole under the BB shell would allow it to exit, at which point the
wire could be routed through the fender. From a frame production
standpoint, this would entail drilling two small holes (there should
be a drain hole at the BB anyways, so that's already covered,
actually) and adding a braze-on. I don't see the need for any
additional routing through the chain or seat stays.

> Yeah, I know that some front lighting will burn out if you
> don't hook up the tail lights too, but I wonder if those restrictions
> will go away.  Some lighting mfg's have already dispensed with that
> problem, I think... Peter White would know more...

Modern LED lighting covers that.


-Jim G

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 19:51 -0800, Jim G wrote:

> 1) With the likes of the Schmidt Edelux, B&M Cyo, or Supernova E3 (and
> E3 Triple!), you don't really need dual headlights these days.

And yet, with most of those, don't you need to run a generator-powered
tail light as well, in order to insure longest LED life?

[jim g]

Not that I've heard of.