What's your take on Business Liability Insurance?
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Bonnie Aumann
Jul 16, 2019, 12:27:17 PM7/16/19
to Lonely Coaches Sodality
A potential client has asked whether I have Business Liability Insurance. The short answer is no. I can ask them to waive the requirement, but should I consider it? It's a 6-week co-located coaching contract with a possible 6-week extension.
I'm looking for personal experiences.
Thanks,
Bonnie
I'm looking for personal experiences.
Thanks,
Bonnie
Allen Holub
Jul 16, 2019, 1:02:43 PM7/16/19
to Lonely Coaches Sodality
I have a package that includes liability, but also includes loss, so the equipment that I carry on the road with me is covered. Clients seem to require it once a year or so. I've never placed a claim, though. Don't know if it's worth it or not :-).
-Allen
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@allenholub
+1 (510) 859-3620 (Skype: allenholub)
http://holub.com
http://linkedin.com/in/allenholub
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Ted M. Young [@jitterted]
Jul 16, 2019, 1:52:09 PM7/16/19
to lonely-coaches-sodality
I've had some clients ask for it, so I used Verifly for General Liability (https://www.verifly.com/) because you can buy coverage for just those days or weeks that you need instead of a whole year. Since I do short-term gigs, this worked well. I haven't filed a claim (and hope not to!) so have no idea how good that part is. Note that Verifly currently only does General Liability and not Professional (E&O), so I get the latter from Hiscox (where I do pay for the whole year, but it's only a few hundred dollars).
;ted
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Richard Dammkoehler
Jul 16, 2019, 2:21:35 PM7/16/19
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I have a policy with The Hartford, runs about $3000/yr. Has general liability up to $2M and covers theft and other things. I got my policy form Insurance Providers Group, but I’m sure almost any insurance broker can help you get it setup.
Jeff Langr
Jul 16, 2019, 6:29:08 PM7/16/19
to lonely-coac...@googlegroups.com, Richard Dammkoehler
$3000, geez.
I pay for general liability only; mine went down to $263 through the Hartford (I am in Colorado), also for $2M. It was as high as $450 some number of years ago.
Theft insurance: hmm, I work out of my house. I have a thing on my homeowner's insurance policy that covers about $25,000 of technical equipment in damage / loss; I think I pay $250 or less on that per year.
I'd say general liability insurance is a "must have" for any business and reasonable enough at that price. (Definitely don't fall for the "being a corporation shields you personally" thing.) If I lived in a state where it was $3000, I'd move. I think the likelihood of needing it is fairly low--mostly it covers injuries and such as a result of negligence.
I have had a few companies ask about (and a couple insist on) E&O, or "errors & omissions" insurance. This is pricier--I remember $800 or so for a year for me--but if you're going to touch their code (or product) and commit things, it might be wise. It protects you from getting sued in the case that you introduce a nasty defect, or tell them something that they can directly link to a major loss.
This is also known as "professional liability" insurance.
In all cases I've resisted, and in a coaching capacity it seems highly unnecessary. In one case my pushback and a little bit of investigation seemed to suggest a lawsuit-happy company, so I politely declined the work. (This is related to my theory of contracts: If they insist on me signing their contract, I always insist on changing at least one thing, no matter how trivial. If they won't, I won't take the job.) I think I paid for it two years out of the last 20--they both made a little more sense, the company insisted, the money was good, and even then I basically baked most of it into my rate.
I've never seen or heard of an actual E&O-related lawsuit for a consultant. That doesn't mean it never happens. I've never been involved in a suit; I think there are far more likely reasons for suits, but then again I've never screwed up someone's system badly enough to cost them dearly.
Jeff
Richard Dammkoehler wrote on 7/16/19 2:05 PM:
I pay for general liability only; mine went down to $263 through the Hartford (I am in Colorado), also for $2M. It was as high as $450 some number of years ago.
Theft insurance: hmm, I work out of my house. I have a thing on my homeowner's insurance policy that covers about $25,000 of technical equipment in damage / loss; I think I pay $250 or less on that per year.
I'd say general liability insurance is a "must have" for any business and reasonable enough at that price. (Definitely don't fall for the "being a corporation shields you personally" thing.) If I lived in a state where it was $3000, I'd move. I think the likelihood of needing it is fairly low--mostly it covers injuries and such as a result of negligence.
I have had a few companies ask about (and a couple insist on) E&O, or "errors & omissions" insurance. This is pricier--I remember $800 or so for a year for me--but if you're going to touch their code (or product) and commit things, it might be wise. It protects you from getting sued in the case that you introduce a nasty defect, or tell them something that they can directly link to a major loss.
This is also known as "professional liability" insurance.
In all cases I've resisted, and in a coaching capacity it seems highly unnecessary. In one case my pushback and a little bit of investigation seemed to suggest a lawsuit-happy company, so I politely declined the work. (This is related to my theory of contracts: If they insist on me signing their contract, I always insist on changing at least one thing, no matter how trivial. If they won't, I won't take the job.) I think I paid for it two years out of the last 20--they both made a little more sense, the company insisted, the money was good, and even then I basically baked most of it into my rate.
I've never seen or heard of an actual E&O-related lawsuit for a consultant. That doesn't mean it never happens. I've never been involved in a suit; I think there are far more likely reasons for suits, but then again I've never screwed up someone's system badly enough to cost them dearly.
Jeff
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Richard Dammkoehler wrote on 7/16/19 2:05 PM:
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Richard Dammkoehler
Jul 16, 2019, 6:53:41 PM7/16/19
to Jeff Langr, lonely-coac...@googlegroups.com
I have E&O in there too, and a bunch of sniggly bits. I’d have to pull up the policy for a while list. I’m probably paying more than I should, and I’d love to move.
.rich
— living in a state of taxation and fees
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In school, you’re taught a lesson and then given a test.
In life, you’re given a test that teaches you a lesson.”
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Bonnie Aumann
Jul 16, 2019, 9:20:21 PM7/16/19
to lonely-coac...@googlegroups.com, Jeff Langr
Thanks for the experience reports, folks. Especially given the timeframe, I'll investigate Verifly as well as a couple of other quotes, including my renter's insurance provider.
Cheers,
Bonnie
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Donald Gray
Jul 17, 2019, 6:37:09 AM7/17/19
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Hi Bonnie,
A potential client has asked whether I have Business Liability Insurance.
As others have pointed out, there’s General Business Liability, and Errors & Omissions insurance.
I keep General Business Liability in place. It covers equipment (I’m self employed and work from home) n addition to me if something bad happens to me while I’m on a client site. State Farm for $ 325/year
I’ve added E&O insurance twice working with specific clients. The engagements were long term. If memory serves, it cost around $ 3,000/year. As I don’t write code or touch client systems, I generally try to get the E&O struck from the requirements.
Sincerely,
Sincerely,
Don Gray - Exploring Human Systems in Action
We do not rise to the level of our expectations.
We fall to the level of our training.
We fall to the level of our training.
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mheusser
Jul 18, 2019, 10:53:29 PM7/18/19
to Lonely Coaches Sodality
As some folks have implied, general liability insurance is often the cost of doing business. You can usually get the standard $1 Mil per incident, $2 Mil per year coverage for less than $600/year.
Errors & Omissions, and Professional Liability Insurance is different. It is more expensive.
Also, unless you are a lawyer, an accountant, an engineer, or some other form of capital-P professional under the law, then professional liability insurance is inappropriate, You are not a professional under the law, you do not need Professional Liabiltiy Insurance. Simply put, there is NO CONDITION under which professional liabiltiy would pay out for you or me as an agile coach or whatever we are.
There is a small argument to be made that if you are an executive legally responsible for financial statements or a member of a board of directors, then you might matybe want O&E insurance to protect you from the SARBOX monster. In practice, those concerns are not well-founded - O&E doesn't pay out anyway.
THAT said, a client can always say "have it or we don't hire you", in which case you can bake it into your rate.
best,
--heusser
Chet Hendrickson
Jul 19, 2019, 10:03:09 AM7/19/19
to Lonely Coaches Sodality
HI,
Matt pretty much covered my view of the notion. Nothing I do is going to be covered by anything but general liability.
A client required liability insurance many years ago. I added that to the cost of the work. Since then, I have be asked about insurance a couple of times, but never found the need to buy a policy.
I think that a requirement for insurance would disqualify them as a client.
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Andrew Webster
Jul 19, 2019, 10:21:20 AM7/19/19
to Lonely Coaches Sodality
I've got some bog standard insurance, and roll the cost of it into my fee.
That said, I also include in my terms and conditions when negotiating with a client ("...there is value in the items on the right"!) something to the effect that while I am wholly committed to their success, it is their business and they are solely accountable for the outcomes of business decisions made. They are not employing me to make their decisions for them, they're employing me to help them "uncover better ways". If what's uncovered is that they make crappy decisions, or that their business model is unsustainable, that is not something that I've brought into the picture so I will not be held liable. I'm holding the mirror, it's them that might be ugly!
If that reveals that their legal guys are so busy protecting them against bad things that they're also protecting them against the good, and they are not willing to do something about that, then I may not take them as a client. Its a pretty tough acid test.
And I carry insurance, as who knows, if something started while I'm with them blows up after I've gone, and their lawyers are ingenious enough to make a case that I was at fault, I want to have something in place to manage that.
- Andrew Webster
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