3-1 lathe - in sorrow, not in anger

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Niels

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Aug 8, 2011, 3:28:32 PM8/8/11
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Went to the space to today to help finish off fixing the lathe....

1) The lathe key has been taken from spooq's box.
2) The lock has been tampered with.

I should remind those that don't know, that the big lathe is a very
powerful tool. It can injure and even kill. It is a much more
dangerous thing than the mini lathes - both for the operator and
bystanders. Try contemplating a block of aluminium travelling across
the room at some considerable velocity.....

Given the key that has gone is one of the two masters and given the
situation with parking permits, we are implementing following actions

1) Securing the key lock system. Tampering with this will be regarded
as very uncool.
2) Instead of leaving a key in a box, individual keys will be given to
people who have done the training. Those who have paid towards the
lathe will get them gratis (I will bear the cost of making them),
otherwise it will be the cost of the key. Sorry, but I can't afford to
make keys for everyone!
3) Regular training sessions each week - shouldn't be very difficult/
intensive - at which keys will be given out.

This may sound harsh to some. But I think that given the nature of the
lathe and it's capabilities, access must be limited to those who have
had some training/skill. A couple of quid for unlimited usage of such
as tool I see as an incredible bargain. After all, the laser cost £5
*an hour* to use.

Sam Cook

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Aug 8, 2011, 3:54:00 PM8/8/11
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Seems fair enough to me, I would not be happy with the 3-in-1 being used by people who hadn't been checked out on it.

Given that even those who *are* competent with it can still get hurt and given this is more than capable of firing shards/lengths/blocks/limbs of people and or metal across the workshop seems very sensible. 

Niels

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:10:47 PM8/8/11
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Absolutely. I look at those motors and can't help thinking what they
can do. Personally I think fear is a useful (and very healthy)
reaction.

I will try and get some keys cut tomorrow.

On Aug 8, 8:54 pm, Sam Cook <sam.lindenrat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seems fair enough to me, I would not be happy with the 3-in-1 being used by
> people who hadn't been checked out on it.
>
> Given that even those who *are* competent with it can still get hurt and
> given this is more than capable of firing shards/lengths/blocks/limbs of
> people and or metal across the workshop seems very sensible.
>
> S
>

Niels

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:12:42 PM8/8/11
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I also forgot to say that I think the same policy should apply to the
Mitre saw (when we get it). It is a powerful device and quite capable
of amputation and throwing stuff violently - what do you reckon?

On Aug 8, 8:54 pm, Sam Cook <sam.lindenrat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seems fair enough to me, I would not be happy with the 3-in-1 being used by
> people who hadn't been checked out on it.
>
> Given that even those who *are* competent with it can still get hurt and
> given this is more than capable of firing shards/lengths/blocks/limbs of
> people and or metal across the workshop seems very sensible.
>
> S
>

Tim Hutt

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:48:54 PM8/8/11
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I think someone may have asked this before with regard to the laser
cutter, but how hard would it be to use RFID for the lathe? Much
easier to manage than keys, and you also get a usage log.

Russ Garrett

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:51:26 PM8/8/11
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Sam Cook

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:59:42 PM8/8/11
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Putting it on the mitre saw sounds good. 

S

Kal

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Aug 8, 2011, 7:00:31 PM8/8/11
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I totally agree, in fact I think a tougher approach could also be
taken.

A short and basic safety introduction is, in my opinion, not enough
for most people to have unlimited access to such a tool.

Two session approach for absolute beginners:
1st: Basic safety intro as normal (instructor to student ratio of 1:4
max)
2nd: Supervision of a standard turning task. Preferably on a separate
day (instructor to student ratio of 1:2 max)
then you get a key.

For those that can demonstrate standard setup and turning task without
instruction will get a key straight away.

I doubt many will want to implement this. But for tools like this, I
would say a more structured and fairly strict approach might be
appropriate.

+1 for the key system on the mitre saw

On Aug 8, 9:59 pm, Sam Cook <sam.lindenrat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Putting it on the mitre saw sounds good.
>
> S
>
> On 8 August 2011 21:51, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 8 August 2011 21:48, Tim Hutt <tdh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think someone may have asked this before with regard to the laser
> > > cutter, but how hard would it be to use RFID for the lathe? Much
> > > easier to manage than keys, and you also get a usage log.
>
> > Well volunteered! :)
>
> >http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Projects/Tool_Access_Control
>
> > --
> > Russ Garrett
> > r...@garrett.co.uk

Billy

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Aug 8, 2011, 7:55:15 PM8/8/11
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I'm one of the contributors to the lathe, and i'll chip in for my key.

Doesn't mean that i'll use the lathe though.

I've only just got the basics of using the small one. I want a LOT
more practise before i start on supervised use of the large lathe.

I like having all my fingers.

Cepmender

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Aug 9, 2011, 8:51:57 AM8/9/11
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I am fixing up the router table today, just a bit of mains work and it`s done   :-)
I am a bit concerned about use by non-competent operators, it has potential for danger equal to the 3 in 1, so if anyone has any suggestions for a (preferably keyless) access system?  Fingerprint sensor? Iris recognition?


--- On Mon, 8/8/11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jim MacArthur

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Aug 9, 2011, 9:16:44 AM8/9/11
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I agree with the key plan, and thanks for doing the work to arrange it.

I pledged a little bit towards the 3-in-1 so I could use the mill part of it. I hadn't planned on using the lathe and don't have a lot of experience with them. If you can teach me to work safely with the lathe, that would be wonderful, but if not, would you be willing to trust me with a key on the basis that I just use the mill?

mkinga

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Aug 9, 2011, 5:45:50 PM8/9/11
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"Two session approach for absolute beginners:
1st: Basic safety intro as normal (instructor to student ratio of 1:4
max)
2nd: Supervision of a standard turning task. Preferably on a separate
day (instructor to student ratio of 1:2 max)
then you get a key. "

Seems a bit OTT to me. You should easily be able to cover both safety
and basic turning in a single session/day and personaly I'd be
comfortable with at least a 1:6 ratio for the whole thing.

Martin.

mkinga

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Aug 9, 2011, 5:54:58 PM8/9/11
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The mill can be just as dangerous as the lathe (even if not to the
operator then the machine). Specifically Conventional milling vs.
Climb Milling and whether the machine is capable of climb milling
safety. Use/importance of the drawbar, feeds and speeds, proper
clamping etc. etc.

Martin.

Jim MacArthur

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Aug 9, 2011, 6:01:42 PM8/9/11
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Indeed it is, but I've had a lot more practice with larger mills.

mkinga

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Aug 9, 2011, 6:09:31 PM8/9/11
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Fair enough. Sorry if my post was a suck eggs one but normally I'd
assume people with mill experience to have lathe experience as well.

Martin.

On Aug 9, 11:01 pm, Jim MacArthur <j...@mode7.co.uk> wrote:
> Indeed it is, but I've had a lot more practice with larger mills.
>

Tim Richardson

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Aug 10, 2011, 6:55:56 AM8/10/11
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Using a miter saw is fairly common sense, the dangers should be
obvious to anyone with a bit of caution.

Tim

Simon Howes

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Aug 10, 2011, 8:40:55 AM8/10/11
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Not a metal cutting one
It can and will grab items and fling them and someone can quite easily cut their fingers off, lose an eye, or cause that to happen to you. Being good at  physics and or computer programming does not necessarily make you a safe operator of such a tool.

The attitude "I'm sure _I'm_smart enough to..." can be most dangerous.

That said the safety training for this is only a few minutes.
There will be a key switch on the machine.

Tim Hutt

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Aug 10, 2011, 9:19:59 AM8/10/11
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On 10 August 2011 13:40, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Not a metal cutting one
> It can and will grab items and fling them and someone can quite easily cut
> their fingers off, lose an eye, or cause that to happen to you. Being good
> at  physics and or computer programming does not necessarily make you a safe
> operator of such a tool.
>
> The attitude "I'm sure _I'm_smart enough to..." can be most dangerous.
>
> That said the safety training for this is only a few minutes.
> There will be a key switch on the machine.

There will? I'd much rather there wasn't. I'm all for safety, but
having a key system means it will be significantly harder to actually
use the tool. How about instead we make a video detailing safety, and
then say "You must watch this video before using.". It's basically the
same thing, and doesn't require key cutting, coordinating meetings and
so on.

If we must though... How is this sort of thing decided anyway?

Oh and we need to decide where we're going to put it.

Simon Howes

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Aug 10, 2011, 9:43:26 AM8/10/11
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The problem is people just up and use a machine no matter how many labels you put on it. The extra step of at least having to get a key from xxx means we can prevent it.

Seriously safety briefing is only 3 minutes.
I dont want to come in and see blood on the walls or have some clueless twit fling a steel rod into my face or shred the blade.

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 10, 2011, 10:25:26 AM8/10/11
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I'm happy with a key on anything (and can think of a case for putting one on some of the hand tools) but it does seem like a solution that isn't going to scale too well if every power tool ends up with one. Especially portable tools.

For this one, fine ..  but can we think about a more general solution too ? Not the access card idea - that might be good for big machines but it's too expensive for all of them.

How about cutting the lead short, fitting a weird connector, and controlling access to a suitable adapter/extension ?

-adrian

Simon Howes

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Aug 10, 2011, 10:35:46 AM8/10/11
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We're going with the e-stop lock switch.
It benefits from the fact that an e-stop is good, plus if you see anything unsafe (like someone with more gusto than safety intelligence) you can hit the e-stop and take the key...

Tim Richardson

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Aug 10, 2011, 10:51:36 AM8/10/11
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> How about cutting the lead short, fitting a weird connector, and controlling
> access to a suitable adapter/extension ?

Sounds like this could end up being a great inconvenience?

What is the saw in question here? an evolution rage? what was the model number?

Tim

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:08:20 AM8/10/11
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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Tim Richardson <t...@rewire.it> wrote:
> How about cutting the lead short, fitting a weird connector, and controlling
> access to a suitable adapter/extension ?

Sounds like this could end up being a great inconvenience?


Just a suggestion. Better ones welcome.

But no, I don't think it would be inconvenient. At least, not as inconvenient as having the tool broken because someone misused it. It might even encourage people to put the extensions away tidily instead of leaving them trailing on the floor.

It would have to be a generic lead for all power tools though, I think : multikeyed connectors are available but they're expensive and having a large selection of leads to identify would be a pain.

-adrian

Nigel Worsley

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:14:53 AM8/10/11
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On 10/08/2011 16:08, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Tim Richardson <t...@rewire.it
> <mailto:t...@rewire.it>> wrote:
>
> > How about cutting the lead short, fitting a weird connector, and
> controlling
> > access to a suitable adapter/extension ?
>
> Sounds like this could end up being a great inconvenience?
>
>
> Just a suggestion. Better ones welcome.

Why not control access to the tool itself and avoid mucking around with
silly connectors?

Nigle


Tim Richardson

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Aug 10, 2011, 12:10:46 PM8/10/11
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>>     > How about cutting the lead short, fitting a weird connector, and
>>    controlling
>>     > access to a suitable adapter/extension ?
>>
>>    Sounds like this could end up being a great inconvenience?
>>
>>
>> Just a suggestion. Better ones welcome.
>
> Why not control access to the tool itself and avoid mucking around with
> silly connectors?

Just chain the tools to their storage shelves or keep them in a locking cabinet?

Tim

Sam Cook

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Aug 10, 2011, 6:18:43 PM8/10/11
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On 10 August 2011 14:19, Tim Hutt <tdh...@gmail.com> wrote:
There will? I'd much rather there wasn't. I'm all for safety, but
having a key system means it will be significantly harder to actually
use the tool. How about instead we make a video detailing safety, and
then say "You must watch this video before using.". It's basically the
same thing, and doesn't require key cutting, coordinating meetings and
so on.

If we must though... How is this sort of thing decided anyway?

Oh and we need to decide where we're going to put it.

It's not just about safety; we now have a _lot_ of members and we also have some pretty nice equipment that people have donated a lot of money towards. I don't want to have to spend 50 minutes (and gods know how much cash) fixing tools every time I want to use them. 

The perfect example of this is the bandsaw, it's a really simple piece of equipment but you have to know that a) the blade doesn't need to be really tight; just tight enough and b) there is some stuff that you need to change the blade in order to cut. Simple enough yet I think in the last 6 months the blade has been replaced at least 6 times. 

As Simon says putting "read this before use" on an item means that there's another piece of paper for people to ignore. At least giving people a key when they've been told how to use it means that they have received the information. 

As to the "how are we going to deal with the huge number of keys" would it be worth having a key box and then giving people a key to that then every week (month, 3 months, day, whatever) doing a formal 2 (?) hour intro session to every tool in the shop. I imagine that most people will be interested in being signed off on all items anyway and this way it is all done at once and we have a good base of assumed knowledge. 

</2 pence>

S

Kal

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Aug 10, 2011, 8:23:16 PM8/10/11
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I am liking the sound of all this organisation of training and keys
etc. For too long have I watched people use tools in silly ways and
have had to bite my lip.

Something I will try and deploy are a bunch of bold very simple signs
next to /above certain machines/areas. e.g. :

This tool is for : straight cuts. fast cuts, holes, smoothing,
sharpening, fine adjusting etc
This tool is not for: using as a chisel, pretending it is a hammer,
any sort of twirling, general mischief, etc
Good Materials for this tool: Wood, Plastic, thin sheet alu etc
BAD Materials for this tool: Stainless steel, old boot leather,
chewing gum, pine needles or frosting. etc

silliness aside, I think you get the idea, and I think it will help.
BOLD, simple, helpfull and short info that some people just arn't sure
of and just end up normally going ahead without checking anyway (the
"yeah it'll totally be fine, because I', in a rush" mentality).

I will need some advice for some machines/tools as I defiantly don't
know enough information about everything in the workshop.

Jonty Wareing

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Aug 11, 2011, 6:20:30 AM8/11/11
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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:18:43PM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
> As to the "how are we going to deal with the huge number of keys"

The plan is to use the existing RFID infrastructure for this:

http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Projects/Tool_Access_Control

We have budgeted to fit a unit to each of the dangerous/fragile tools in
the space, but noone has had time to work on the implementation yet.

--jonty

Sam Cook

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Aug 11, 2011, 10:06:42 AM8/11/11
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Is there any sort of timescale for this? There are all sorts of interesting ways we can secure the devices but at the moment we have (soon 3) devices key secured; it seems to me that unless the TAC is going to be ready pretty soon having a simple key locker may be a good (and reasonably cheap) half way measure. 


Niels

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Aug 11, 2011, 10:24:55 AM8/11/11
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I've ordered some more keys for the lathe lock. May be possible to get
key locks that match those keys - i.e. make them keys for the "Serious
Tools"

Jonty Wareing

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Aug 11, 2011, 11:08:04 AM8/11/11
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On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 03:06:42PM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
> Is there any sort of timescale for this? There are all sorts of interesting
> ways we can secure the devices but at the moment we have (soon 3) devices
> key secured; it seems to me that unless the TAC is going to be ready pretty
> soon having a simple key locker may be a good (and reasonably cheap) half
> way measure.

Russ has attempted to order suitable RFID readers today. I imagine the
solution will be a nanode based and rather simple indeed.

--jonty

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