PERIPATETIC PARKING PERMITS

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cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Aug 6, 2011, 8:39:29 AM8/6/11
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Where are they?

Before we have to go grovelling to the landlords for replacements, would
the last users of the two missing permits please return them? They have
been missing for some time now.

The one on the A4 board should not be difficult to find, it is the thing
that is blocking your view of the road.
The smaller one is the thing that is rustling under your foot when you
brake.

Until they are returned or replaced no-one is safe parking here.
Regardless of the legality or otherwise of clamping and possible
countermeasures by the victim the fact is that getting clamped is a PITA.

Do the decent thing.... Bring `em back.

Phil

Stephen Early

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Aug 8, 2011, 10:22:00 AM8/8/11
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I think it's time to admit that they aren't coming back, and concentrate instead on getting replacements and figuring out how to keep the replacements from walking off.  The "please return them" messages have been going out for months now.

Steve

tom

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Aug 8, 2011, 10:32:08 AM8/8/11
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chain them to breezeblocks

Ken Boak

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Aug 8, 2011, 10:35:30 AM8/8/11
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Stick them on an A3 sized board, fitted with a howler which goes off when you get out of range of say 100m from a 433MHz transmitter located in the space.
 
Alternatively, credit card or car keys need to be forfeited and stored in a locked box, which is only opened when the permit board is returned - Use a RFID tag in the back of the board to activate a lock.
 
I am truly sorry to hear that Adrian got clamped - those cowboy clampers are the scurge of the business park - wholly predatory and unreasonable.
 
No permits and the threat of getting clamped deter me from driving to the space anymore - so I have to mess with public transport -  adds an hour to my journey.
 
 
 
Ken

Peter Hicks

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Aug 8, 2011, 10:44:18 AM8/8/11
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On 8 August 2011 15:35, Ken Boak <ken....@gmail.com> wrote:

Stick them on an A3 sized board, fitted with a howler which goes off when you get out of range of say 100m from a 433MHz transmitter located in the space.

That sounds like an excellent idea.


Peter
 

Sci

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Aug 8, 2011, 11:08:31 AM8/8/11
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I still think we should have a way of automating them being handed out.
I think I suggested hacking one of the cheaper electronic safes
(cheapest on ebay is about £15) and tying it into the DoorBot system so
the safe can only be opened with a members RFID card.
Someone wants one, the system logs which member opened the safe.

If there are multiple permits though, it doesn't stop someone taking out
more than one in one go, which could degrade the system.
Unless there was maybe something to detect how many passes were in
their? Maybe some IR-interrupts?

Ken Boak

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Aug 8, 2011, 11:29:49 AM8/8/11
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Sci,
 
Someone who drives to the space is less likely to have an oyster card.
 
Perhaps issue "known drivers" with an RFID card which is swapped for the permit (from the locked safe) in some manner which one card can be swapped for the permit, and on return of the permit the card is released.
 
Additionally I propose a "whip round" for Adrian.  He does a lot of good work  for the  space, and was only helping out on Sunday when he got clamped - through no fault of his own.
 
 
 
Ken

Mark Steward

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Aug 8, 2011, 11:37:13 AM8/8/11
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One serious suggestion from IRC is to buy three cheap mobiles with GPS and attach them to the permits.  We can then ask that the phone be kept charged while in your car - you shouldn't need to stay long enough for it to drain your car battery - and it can update Babbage with its location constantly.

Something attached to IRC would then be able to raise an alarm if one of them stops updating its location, or appears to be travelling out of range of the space.

This solves all problems raised, but does it introduce any more?


Mark

tom

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Aug 8, 2011, 12:02:22 PM8/8/11
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mark wins for most overly engineered solution ever!

seriously though, a safe and sign-in/out system would work. Also be
able to store the lasercutter keys there too

Sam Kelly

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Aug 8, 2011, 12:14:03 PM8/8/11
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How about attaching RFID tags to the permits (and the lasercutter keys, and whatever else we might want to keep in the safe) and using a dual key sign-in/out system? That would let us log both who's using the safe and what they're interacting with, with a minimum of faff.

Sam
--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

tom

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Aug 8, 2011, 12:24:19 PM8/8/11
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Surely we'll need a central rfid auth server for this? Given the
skills of the people in the space how can we ensure this isnt hacked-
to-buggery?
> Sam Kelly,http://www.eithin.co.uk/

Sam Kelly

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Aug 8, 2011, 12:34:58 PM8/8/11
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Any attempt at ACTUAL security will be prone to that, since anyone wanting to hack their way to a parking permit has at their disposal:

* power tools
* improvised Tesla bombs
* strong acids
* social engineering skills necessary to get a new one issued

So the most useful idea is to make it much more hassle to get one untraceably than to bring it back when you're done, and give the majority of honest users a reminder nudge. Machines that go beep are good for that, as well as being a good thing in themselves.

Also, the bikeshed should be green.

Sam
--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 8, 2011, 1:45:40 PM8/8/11
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On 8/8/11, Ken Boak <ken....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Additionally I propose a "whip round" for Adrian. He does a lot of good
> work for the space, and was only helping out on Sunday when he got clamped
> - through no fault of his own.
>

Ken, that's very thoughtful but no thanks.

-adrian

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 8, 2011, 1:52:37 PM8/8/11
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On 8/8/11, tom <bollo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> mark wins for most overly engineered solution ever!
>
> seriously though, a safe and sign-in/out system would work. Also be
> able to store the lasercutter keys there too
>

Don't need a safe - the vending machine would do this well. yes, it's
been a project for a while but it's far closer to completion than
anything else.

I do think phones would be a good way to do this if they can be found
cheap enough - they have all the right parts ready packaged. Can even
ring them up and ask the user to bring them back !

-adrian

amx109

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Aug 8, 2011, 3:36:20 PM8/8/11
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Stick them on an A3 sized board

of all the solutions suggested so far, this seems by far the simplest and effective. no one will drive off home with an a3 board in their car.

will they?

Charles Yarnold

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Aug 8, 2011, 3:41:47 PM8/8/11
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Someone has with a almost A3 sized piece, much bigger and it would not fit on a dashboard!

tom

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Aug 8, 2011, 3:54:13 PM8/8/11
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do think phones would be a good way to do this if they can be found
> cheap enough - they have all the right parts ready packaged. Can even
> ring them up and ask the user to bring them back !


until the phones are turned off, go out of signal or batteries die.



On Aug 8, 6:52 pm, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bob Clough

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:13:24 PM8/8/11
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How about attaching them to a full size manikin, i'd like to see people accidentally leave with a naked plastic person sat in their driver's seat. 

amx109

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:28:04 PM8/8/11
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+1 for the blow up doll

Kal

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Aug 8, 2011, 7:51:45 PM8/8/11
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I think people are (as with a lot of things in the space) happy to
throw out suggestion of solutions and criticise/dismiss others before
they are tried out.

How about: start with simple (better than nothing) and work our way
up:

Clipboard with paper: name, time, date, signature in, signature out.
If there is another person in the space get a witness to watch you
sign it, remind you to sign out.
I like the idea of forfeight of carkeys/credit card as a more potent
reminder.

Don't tell me it won't work, show me.

On Aug 8, 9:28 pm, amx109 <amx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 for the blow up doll
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Bob Clough <para...@ivixor.net> wrote:
> > How about attaching them to a full size manikin, i'd like to see people
> > accidentally leave with a naked plastic person sat in their driver's seat.
>

Kal

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Aug 8, 2011, 7:54:35 PM8/8/11
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oh and +1 for the blow up doll if the simpler approaches fail. Then we
can talk about GPS.... maybe gps hidden in the blow up dolls... in
unspeakable places. lol

On Aug 8, 9:28 pm, amx109 <amx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 for the blow up doll
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Bob Clough <para...@ivixor.net> wrote:
> > How about attaching them to a full size manikin, i'd like to see people
> > accidentally leave with a naked plastic person sat in their driver's seat.
>

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 8, 2011, 8:19:25 PM8/8/11
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I don't think you need a high security method to stop people making a
determined theft attempt. I think you just need an incentive to make
them bother to climb back up the stairs and put it back before driving
off.

Andrew Black

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Aug 9, 2011, 3:25:30 AM8/9/11
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Is there any mileage in arguing with the landlords that clamping at evenings & weekends is pointless.
Apologies if I have missed the point.

Failing that I agree with Adrian we need a simple incentive to return permits. Also we need a simple way of recording who uses them.

Dirk-Willem van Gulik

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Aug 9, 2011, 3:41:11 AM8/9/11
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On 9 Aug 2011, at 08:25, Andrew Black wrote:

> Failing that I agree with Adrian we need a simple incentive to return permits. Also we need a simple way of recording who uses them.

Or we need to start to slowly acknowledge the fact that we now have situations where people are not just pushing social boundaries, handling equipment a bit awkwardly and being generally uncool - but are transgressing.

Tampering with the 3in1 lock, thefts, missing keys, camera covering, missing permits is crossing a threshold. And we're not far off the point where this starts not to be an inconvenience but endangers others in the space. Liabilities come in quickly after.

So I wonder if we are getting close to the unfortunate point where we need to ask our directors to step up their role of protecting the collective on our behalf.

Are there ways to postpone this for another year ?

Perhaps by making it mandatory to sign in and out in a paper logbook ? And mandatory to report in that same logbook any equipment you broke or found faulty ? (Mandatory, as in 'forgo membership' otherwise).

Dw.

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 9, 2011, 4:01:16 AM8/9/11
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On 8/9/11, Andrew Black <andrew...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Is there any mileage in arguing with the landlords that clamping at evenings
> & weekends is pointless.
> Apologies if I have missed the point.


The contract between Workspace and Ace Security is probably more like
a franchise to Ace to collect fines than a contractor who clamps on
their behalf. This will reduce the cost to Workspace, and Ace will
want to make as many clamps as possible, consistent with not being
such a nuisance that tenants complain and leave.

It won't bother either party much that there's no need to fine people
for parking in an empty car park. As far as Workspace are concerned,
it means local residents won't get to think the car park is free to
use, and Ace just want the money.

-adrian

Philip McGaw

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Aug 9, 2011, 5:31:06 AM8/9/11
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what about logging them out with the use of the Oyster Card System? its
a metric we record already; and no additional private information is
recorded by us.

tom

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Aug 9, 2011, 12:47:43 PM8/9/11
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and an update on the DIY ANPR stuff, i totally failed to get ocropus
installed last night. Russ was right, its shit and I'll be looking for
an alternative :)



On Aug 9, 9:01 am, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:

mkinga

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Aug 9, 2011, 5:18:44 PM8/9/11
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It's worth bearing in mind that the controlled parking zone finishes
at 18:30 weekdays, 13.30 Saturdays, and doesen't operate at all on
Sundays. At these times it's often possible to find parking in either
Nazul street or Long st./Gorsuch st. (there is a pedestrian cut
through from Gorsuch st. to Cremer st.) So if you have large/heavy
stuff to unload probably best to try and do it out of controlled
times, ask someone to watch the vehicle while you unload and then move
it to the on street parking.

Martin.

On Aug 9, 9:01 am, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Clare Greenhalgh

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Aug 9, 2011, 5:28:54 PM8/9/11
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Why not mount it on something that just fits inside a windscreen, or even on a piece of plastic you have to extend to fit into a winscreen to secure it. If it is big no-one will drive off with it! That big really would be a feat! 

mkinga

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Aug 9, 2011, 6:01:31 PM8/9/11
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With HUGE "Please return to hackspace before you leave" text on the
back, pretty difficult to forget then.

Martin.

On Aug 9, 10:28 pm, Clare Greenhalgh <claregreenha...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Why not mount it on something that just fits inside a windscreen, or even on
> a piece of plastic you have to extend to fit into a winscreen to secure it.
> If it is big no-one will drive off with it! That big really would be a
> feat!
>
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