Rule Zero Attempt.

[Paddy Duncan]

Hi All,

This afternoon I discovered the mini-oven thing with a tea towel on one hob, and a piece of paper on the other.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0mn8z87gte6smjk/IMAG0148.jpg

And.. one of the hobs was switched ON.

According to those present in the space, no-one has been seen using the thing since at least the middle of the night.

Can we all please be more careful in the future? Leaving anything on the hobs is not acceptable, whether it is on or off.

Thanks

Paddy

[Jonty Wareing]

Why do we still have this mini-oven thing? Don't we have a full
cooker/hob now? Am I imagining that?

--jonty

> --

[Paddy Duncan]

The new hob only works intermittently, and the grill/small oven bit of the
main oven is not really useable due to broken door..
Could both do with replacing, again.

Paddy

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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2637/6025 - Release Date: 01/11/13

[Martin Dittus]

As far as I'm concerned our ability to prepare certain warm foods (albeit nice) is secondary to our ability not to burn down. I'd be fine with throwing out that oven, esp if it's as easy to turn on accidentally as people suggest.

m.

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[Billy]

It's no different to the drill, the lathes, the angle-grinder, or the
welding equipment. All of these tools i have found turned off
improperly, usually between 1130pm and 0030am. Please turn off the
equipment properly. It's just good practise for using machine tools.

Putting paper and tea towels on a hob, isn't good practise for using a
kitchen.

As for the mini-oven, the plastic knob that covers the rotary switch
for the left-hand hob isn't there. Without that in place, then it's
difficult to tell the temperature range that the hob is set to. And
it's also easy to not see that the hob isn't turned off.

That said, the you only need to turn it completely anti-clockwise to
turn it off.

Replace the plastic knob, then see if what happened recurs. It's a
useful tool, it's just had not maintenance.

[Paddy Duncan]

As it happens, the one left switched on was the one that has the plastic
knob. And as Martin said, it is easy to accidentally switch on. But so are
all hobs. The paper and tea towel is the real issue, it's the kitchen
equivalent of leaving the chuck key in a lathe.

Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6025 - Release Date: 01/11/13

[Monty]

Out of curiosity, does the kitchen have smoke detectors? Would it be worth getting some installed if not, particularly as people still seem to be sleeping in the space and the late/early hours is when Billy says he spots the most mistakes occurring? (obviously poor/weak correlation as there are other factors involved with that observation)

Also, is it worth installing a webcam to cover the kitchen? Unless someone admits to being the one responsible we can't really ensure they've been made aware of the safety issues they've created. It'll also help with instances in the past where people have refused to take responsibility of mess created by food preparation.

[Ximin Luo]

At university all the kitchens were fitted with a switch that automatically shut off everything after 10 minutes. If you wanted to use power for more than 10 minutes, you would have to repeatedly hit the switch.

I can't imagine this would be too expensive to install.

X

[Charles Yarnold]

Nice simple solution.

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[Adrian Godwin]

Especially as we already have that PIR lightswitch. I probably have a
suitable contactor that could be used to isolate the mains.

It might annoy people trying to use the oven, though.

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[Ben Barwise]

you could probably use of of those time lag switches used for hallway lighting to trigger a mains controlled high power relay (thats going to be a big relay though for 30A or whatever an oven is.) bit over engineered though,  Smoke alarms and vigilance beat that any day.

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[Adrian Godwin]

yebbut the pir lightswitch already turns the light out a few minutes
after the room is empty.

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[Charles Yarnold]

I did think this myself, but it does mean anyone popping out for a ciggie will inadvertently turn power to the oven on too.

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[Adrian Godwin]

True, it would really need a no-volt release - you don't want it
coming back on when a previous abuser has left the ring on.

Better just to train people into sensible practices really. Automatic
solutions are just like those ridiculous 'do you really want to
delete' prompts. Ineffective and encourage bad habits.

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Charles Yarnold

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[pad...@padski.co.uk]

Indeed, could we make it 12 minutes, for pizza?


Sent from my thing.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Charles Yarnold" <charles...@gmail.com>
To: "Hackspace Mailing List" <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [london-hack-space] Rule Zero Attempt.

Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2013 15:13

[Clare Greenhalgh]

I don't know if this would be possible, but could we have a lid you put down over it (that is obviously completely heatproof!) that switches everything off as soon as it is down. This also gives a little extra workspace in the kitchen.

I know that works on some ovens (seen them made!) but not sure if we could do it...

I completely agree that we need to make it clear that you have to turn off all the rings too though!

Mother Dragon

[Jim MacArthur]

Another way is just to make it more obvious that it's on, using a big
red light or something that beeps every minute while power is applied.
I might see if I can knock something together next time I'm in.

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[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

Get a grip Guys and Gals....

JUST DO NOT LEAVE SHIT ON THE COOKER

Simples :)

Phil

--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

[Charles Yarnold]

Everyone on this thread is clued up enough not to do that, this is a discussion about how to get the people like the person who actually left stuff on the cooker to not do it.

If you fancy teaching each person who comes to the hackspace by TELLING THEM NOT TO IN VERBAL CAPS then by all means, but doing so here is just preaching to the choir.

sol

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[Charles Yarnold]

Simple tech solutions can work, case in point is at the old space we had problems with people leaving a window open, Russ and I hooked up a switch to it, if it was open a light near the door would turn on on. We never had the problem again.

[Clare Greenhalgh]

I think Jim's idea of the light is excellent, but honestly I think the beeping would drive most people crazy. 

I think that the light will make people aware, and that is all we need.

Mother Dragon

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Or we could just use a red bulb/led array that's on when the oven is on. That way all you need is current clamp and a basic circuit.

But really I'm up for putting more cams in and naming and shaming after a second carelessness. If people aren't responsible enough to follow basic safety precautions then they don't deserve the privacy, simples.

Mentar

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[Ximin Luo]

"Aren't responsible" - you're thinking about this problem in the wrong way, you're blaming the user. You should never blame the user.

This is not about being responsible or not. People can forget these things, even careful people. It is about *REDUCING THE HUMAN COST* of having safety, so automated systems are always good.

[Ximin Luo]

Light-activated is not necessary (and not what I meant in the first place), and causes problems with people accidentally switching it back on.

A simple 10 minute hard timer has worked for 100+ kitchens at my uni for many many years - you push it and the power stays on for another 10 minutes. For LHS maybe 20 minutes is better for ovens (we only had hobs in the kitchens), but I doubt anyone will want to roast/bake stuff for more than 20 min. If this is a major issue, we can add a sound beeper say 2 minutes before it's about to automatically shut off.

The problem with beeping-while-it's-on is it could get annoying, and people might get used to it and just ignore it.

[Adrian Godwin]

Education is not blaming.

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[Clare Greenhalgh]

I think it is better to have a light than a switch you need to hit every 10-20 minutes - people do actually cook proper food in the ovens at the space as well as ready meals...

We have ovens as well as hobs for a reason, so that people can be creative with food, and not constrained to only being able to have it on for a very limited time. If you do this to kitchen equipment then I think we should also do it to all the solder irons, laser cutter, and all other equipment in the space. Why should it only be people who want to cook who suffer?

There are many reports of people leaving on solder irons, but never anything as extreme as this as a solution for that.

A bright red light should be a solution to people leaving the oven on, especially if there are two - one by the oven and one by the door!

Mother Dragon

[Billy]

It's an incredibly easy mistake to make. I've done it myself at home.
Finish cooking the food, go eat, and come back into the kitchen to
find the hob still on... :))

Just keep the hob clear of flammables.

The wall-mount light is a good idea though. Just an extra reminder...

[Ximin Luo]

What is there to educate? I would assume whoever did the original act is thinking "oh shit I am so sorry" rather than "oh I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do that".

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

If we can find a high current double-pole switch, one pole can control
the live to the oven, the other to a bulkhead light with a red bulb.

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[David Sullivan]

On Saturday, 12 January 2013 18:47:47 UTC, wrote:

What is there to educate? I would assume whoever did the original act is thinking "oh shit I am so sorry" rather than "oh I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do that".

That assumption presumes they're reading the mailing list at all.

Who is this mysterious Mr Blank out of interest?

Sully.

[Monty]

Presumably it's Ximin Luo (aka infinity0)

[Simon Howes]

bin it. Or at the very least disable those hobs.

The hobs on the top are quite novel and not something you'd expect to be there. With a flow of people coming and going, doing different things, its just an accident waiting to happen. People are much less likely to put paper towels on the actual hobs because they're expecting them to be there. The mini oven has the sort of subconscious feel to it of a microwave, so people are going to stack stuff on top of it. (Ever put bread on top of the microwave?) Its not them being malicious or disobedient, and catching and culprit and blaming them isn't going to help. Its just an accident factory. And it's waiting gleefully to gift us with its promethian flame of love.

Also, its a pretty dangerous (tall and not too wide) place for pans to be sat. Unlike dedicated hobs which are on a broad flat base. This is just a massive liability

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[tim_n]

Wouldn't a timer be better?  Just put the timer on for however long you're going to use x for up to a maximum time of say 30 minutes?

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

Yikes! Dunno how that got sent again....

Apologies

[Paddy Duncan]

Probably because it's the only sensible suggestion and needed repeating..

--




-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

My thoughts exactly!

[Clare Greenhalgh]

I think this ignores the point that if we leave the hobs or oven on we are using electricity for no reason and wasting money.

This also only addresses the mailing list, and we know this has happened. People who are not on the list won't know about it, read this or see the note.

A solution to stopping people leaving these on is a better answer.

Mother Dragon

[Tim Reynolds]

How many times has this happened? I'm not sure re-wiring parts of the
kitchen is really the best course of action just before we move out.

From what I remember the kitchen space at the new building is a lot
smaller, perhaps we could lose the mini oven/hob thing as suggested by
someone else and start afresh with a view to make things more idiot proof.

Or we could rewire the consumer unit with an rPI thin client driving an
esperanto announcement system that also tweets into the blogosphere.

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[Clare Greenhalgh]

I thought all of the plans were for the new space rather than the one we are in...

I also thought we could just bin the mini hob/oven now anyway - we have both in a large form and the little one is much easier to knock the switches on too.

Mother Dragon

[Tim Reynolds]

If we can bin the little one, hoorar! I wasn't aware the measures
suggested were for the new space, whoopsie. Even if they are, I think
we're going a little overboard here. A smoke alarm will probably be
fine. A smoke alarm that talks to IRC if we _really_ need to hackspace
it. It's a shared kitchen, not a nuclear reactor.

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[Clare Greenhalgh]

Which is why I thought a light would be enough.... bleeping and timers are a little extreme!

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[Mussard, Mike J]

Being a kitchen a heat detector would be better than a smoke alarm, (IMO for the reason of less false alarms. )

A heat detector is also probably easier to hack together than a smoke alarm, but admittedly is slower to respond to an issue of a fire should one exist.

-----Original Message-----
From: london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Reynolds
Sent: 14 January 2013 11:41
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Rule Zero Attempt.

[Jim MacArthur]

There's plenty of options here and I think we can leave it to the
do-ocracy. I've just ordered a non-invasive current sensor. If I get
the 'on light' working, the space can use it or not as it sees fit.

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[Martin (Crypt)]

+1 to getting a heat detector in the kitchen, and probably the rest of the space.  Generally I think we can rely on people not to be idiots, but we certainly should have fire alarms about anyway.  Its something that can be done cheap, easy, and without any major bikeshedding. 
I will order some if theres no major objections.

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[Martin (Crypt)]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Alert-Battery-Operated-H300CE/dp/B001NLK3ES
is this ok, or any other preferences?

[Martin (Crypt)]

Ok, decided to order this.  Its gunna be there in 3 - 5 business days.  Consider it a donation to the space

[Matthew & Anna Israelsohn]

On a general note, please make any warning system in the new space visual too as there are some of us who won't hear beeping especially if there is a lot of background noise.

"On lights" are perfect from my perspective as a deaf person if they are well positioned.

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

I would suggest holding fire (no pun intended) until we have assessed what
the best approach is in the light of detailed study of the new building.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:21:09 -0000, Martin (Crypt)
<crys...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> http://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Alert-Battery-Operated-H300CE/dp/B001NLK3ES
> is this ok, or any other preferences?
>

[Martin (Crypt)]

its cheap and I can't see it not being useful in the new space, and if it turns out to be useless in the new space we can just ebay it

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