Welding (another revisiting)

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Sam Cook

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Apr 18, 2011, 7:48:37 AM4/18/11
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Hey, 

What's the current state of play with regards to welding at the space? the wiki [1] (and reality) says we now have 2 welders but we're waiting for the final items of PPE equipment (enough for one person but not enough for teaching etc). The wiki is unclear as to how much of the pledge has actually been paid (I know this was prior to many of us noting when we paid on the pledge page) but it would be nice if it was clarified so we know what we still need to get, if we have the money for it and when we can get it.

Thanks

S



spooq

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Apr 18, 2011, 12:32:20 PM4/18/11
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The last thing that happened (that I know of), was me saying I'd
organise a welding screen, and then not doing it.

So... if you want to organise a proper welding screen, awesome! :D

Seriously though, I think we have pretty much everything else we need.
Personally, I just want someone to give me a five minute walk-through,
and then I'll go and play with it for a while. Failing that, I'll
watch a video on youtube :P

Luke

spooq

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Apr 18, 2011, 12:42:14 PM4/18/11
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Technically the red welder is on long-term loan from me. It is going
to be a long time before I take it back though.

I see on the wiki page there is a need for sand. I donated a box full
of clean silica sand for general use, I'm pretty sure I put it under a
table.

Luke

spooq

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Apr 18, 2011, 12:44:23 PM4/18/11
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Oh, and I have a leather apron and gloves at the space, which can be
used for welding, so we don't necessarily have to buy that.

Luke

spooq

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Apr 18, 2011, 12:47:22 PM4/18/11
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One more before I stop spamming this topic... just how much steel do
we have lying around? The only piece I know of that is any decent size
is the big pipe that traditionally lives in the wood pile. Are there
any steel plates?

Luke

Adrian Godwin

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:02:22 PM4/18/11
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There are a couple of rebars knocking about that I brought in ages ago, more for welding really than turning. The steel is a bit hard and doesn't easily give a nice finish, but it's usable.

If you're going to buy some, look for 'free-cutting' or 'leaded' steel, EN1A. This is much nicer to work with, almost as easy as aluminium.

-adrian

Toby Catlin

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:03:54 PM4/18/11
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I am still very keen on learning to weld. I think i also volunteered to go buy a screen but i am not sure how the money side works (yes i know you give shops money they give you stuff) and I am proper strapped at the moment (bleedin wedding).

Spooq, if no one volunteers to teach us how about we get together and give it a go? I have done some arc welding previously and I am sure we can work out the mig settings.

toby

spooq

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:06:28 PM4/18/11
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Sounds good to me. I'm mostly interested in the arc welder (seeing as
it is mine, and I have absolutely no clue how to use it), but I get
the impression that mig is better under most circumstances, so am
quite happy to have a bash at that too.

Luke

Adrian Godwin

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:12:29 PM4/18/11
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
There are a couple of rebars knocking about that I brought in ages ago, more for welding really than turning. The steel is a bit hard and doesn't easily give a nice finish, but it's usable.

If you're going to buy some, look for 'free-cutting' or 'leaded' steel, EN1A. This is much nicer to work with, almost as easy as aluminium.


I got confused on the topic here .. EN1A is good for turning, but not, I suspect, welding.

-adrian

Toby Catlin

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:13:35 PM4/18/11
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I haven't done any mig but I am told that arc is slower and a bit harder.

With arc you strike the tip of the weld rod against the work piece to generate some heat and create a weld pool. It is very easy to stick the rod to the work piece at this point. Once you have a weld pool you dip the rod in and out of it to create crescent shaped fillets. You then work your way along creating the weld seam. It is very satisfying when you create a good weld like when you make a perfect solder joint.

With mig the weld wire is fed out via a motor which means all you have to control is the movement along the line you wish to weld. Once yo have the wire feed speed set correctly for the material you are welding.

toby

spooq

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:13:53 PM4/18/11
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Your post makes more sense now ;)

Luke

Toby Catlin

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:16:50 PM4/18/11
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My mate at the garage next door will give us steel to play with. I am interested in welding up my car so practicing on body panels is what i want to do.
Welding tubular steel is also involved in many of my fantasy projects so would be up for buying a lot of tubular steel.

t

On 18 April 2011 18:12, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Billy

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Apr 18, 2011, 1:49:03 PM4/18/11
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I'm up for helping.

I've been shown the basics of arc, but i need lots more practise to be
able to do it properly. Hence why i helped build the current welding
screen.

I'll chip in to an order of stock metal we can play with. Then we can
work on making the rest of the tools we need.

Markbot, who is currently treeless in Goa, is qualified to teach arc,
MIG and TIG. When he's going to return is another question entirely.

Adam re-wired and painted the arc welder, as well as providing some
safety equipment and a small supply of welding rods.

The welding screen we built is quite frankly crap. It's made of two
fire doors and is far too heavy for any sensible use. It was meant as
a temporary solution, so we'd have something to use while making the
real thing. If someone gets some angle iron, we can start making a
real one.

As for angle iron, i'll start skip-hunting again... :D




On Apr 18, 6:16 pm, Toby Catlin <t...@korfball.com> wrote:
> My mate at the garage next door will give us steel to play with. I am
> interested in welding up my car so practicing on body panels is what i want
> to do.
> Welding tubular steel is also involved in many of my fantasy projects so
> would be up for buying a lot of tubular steel.
>
> t
>
> On 18 April 2011 18:12, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:

cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Apr 18, 2011, 3:41:31 PM4/18/11
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I have a quantity of steel (mainly square section tubular IMSMR) in my
lockup.
Will take a photo next time I am there.
If any volunteers to bring it from Woolwich then it could be the stuff of
your dreams....
Phil

Adrian Godwin

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Apr 18, 2011, 7:02:27 PM4/18/11
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Toby Catlin <to...@korfball.com> wrote:
I haven't done any mig but I am told that arc is slower and a bit harder.

With arc you strike the tip of the weld rod against the work piece to generate some heat and create a weld pool. It is very easy to stick the rod to the work piece at this point.

This is also true of MIG. The opposite error is to lengthen the arc too far, extinguishing it. It must then be re-struck by touching the wire against the work again. I would say it's a little easier to strike the arc with MIG (but it's a very long time since I did any stick welding). When you're new to it you end up with a birdsnest-like weld with bits of burnt-off wire and blobs of weld all over the place (and all too little pooled metal where it's supposed to be!).
 
Once you have a weld pool you dip the rod in and out of it to create crescent shaped fillets. You then work your way along creating the weld seam. It is very satisfying when you create a good weld like when you make a perfect solder joint.

With mig the weld wire is fed out via a motor which means all you have to control is the movement along the line you wish to weld. Once yo have the wire feed speed set correctly for the material you are welding.


The wire is fed at a constant, and adjustable rate. It's also melted at a rate that's affected by the current settings and the arc length. You choose the current settings according to the work (low current for thin materials) but if the wire feed rate isn't suitable you'll constantly kill the arc or keep sticking the wire to the work. So you need to have them both adjusted to mutually compatible values, keep a fixed arc length, and move along the work at a rate that's dependent on how much metal you want deposited along the weld line. This is by no means easy.

With a stick welder, you have no automatic feed so your welding stick is also shortening all the time. This means that keeping the arc a constant length is more difficult than it would be with MIG.

There's also the gas supply in MIG : I'm not sure of the interactions here, but it's not purely for shielding (preventing oxidisation) - C02 is involved chemically in the weld, too.

-adrian

 

ATNMY

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Apr 20, 2011, 10:35:17 AM4/20/11
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Hi All,

I have said to a couple of folk that I'm up for giving a workshop on
metal working and welding, I was a metalworker and welder on bronze
and stainless steel sculpture for 3 years, so I can help with shaping
and surface work too if anyone has any need for that. I am away
lambing in Oxfordshire at the minute but will be back in a couple of
weeks time and am up for doing a workshop anytime after that, give me
a shout as to what days work best.

Secondly I have just welded in a new deck in on a friends narrow boat
and have asked him if we can have the old deck's sheet steel for the
hack space. It's a bit pitted, but at the very least it will be good
for running the workshop and for people to practice on. If people
would like the steel then say so and I will bring it in when I get
back, It shouldn't take up too much space and will fit into one of the
scrap wood sections easily.

Let me know what you think,

Rich.





Sam Cook

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Apr 20, 2011, 10:38:05 AM4/20/11
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Rich,

awesome!

(also bonus points for best reason not to be in central London I've heard in a long time). 

S

Errant

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Apr 21, 2011, 4:05:03 AM4/21/11
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Hi Rich,

I've wanted to learn larger scale metalwork (especially welding) for
years, I can't wait! I'm a student so fairly flexible time-wise.

Hope the weather holds fair for the lambing!

Morag

Toby Catlin

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Apr 21, 2011, 5:28:07 AM4/21/11
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I am excited too

Shall we setup a weekly welding meet? How about welding wednesday?

t

Sam Cook

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Apr 21, 2011, 7:36:38 AM4/21/11
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I would say a Thursday is probably preferable as there are already several things penciled in most Wednesdays; I know spooq/luke is talking about 3-in-1 training then and the DIYbio people have their meet up then as well.

S
Message has been deleted

ATNMY

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Apr 22, 2011, 5:18:09 AM4/22/11
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Hey Guys,

Thanks for the lambing comments and well wishes! All sounds good to
me, I won't be able to do Thursdays, as I do a bee keeping course
Thurs evenings but am happy to workshop outside of that as a regular
meetup is a great idea. Welding, like most things, is about repetition
and practice, once you guys get a proper feel for creating a good pool
and getting good penetration with your weld, you wont really need me
around to practice.

As for getting hold of any extra equipment goes, I haven't had a
proper look at ours but some of the small arc welders are setup so
that you can put a tig torch and argon gas feed on them (some you can
even extend with a foot pedal for amperage control). If any one wants
to learn any fine welding, at some point it would be worth looking at
trying to create a good tig setup with a pedal, as you have far more
control and therefore a wider range of options with your projects.

Will drop a post when I get back in a 10 days or so..

Catch you soon and happy welding in the mean time!

Rich.







On Apr 21, 9:35 am, Adam Page <adamjp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'v been happily creating showers of sparks and bright lights in the
> workshop.
> I don't claim to be good at it but I'm having fun and I'v made some
> welds that don't  come apart
> when pounded with a hammer.
>
> If another pair of suitable overalls could be found there would be
> enough PPE for two people.
>
> There is currently two welding masks, two pairs of gauntlets, two
> aprons and one pair of blue overalls.
>
> I recommend the orange gloves, they seem a bit more comfortable than
> the white gloves and I'v
> accidentally got hold of an almost glowing piece of steel without
> injuring myself.
>
> The automatic welding helmet is much nicer to use than one that is
> dark all the time.
>
> I'v spent a bit of money on kit outside the pledge.
> Personally I don't see much value for money in buying a lot more stuff
> but the people who
> have signed up for the pledge can of course do what they want.
>
> I'd just buy another automatic welding helmet (25 quid on ebay),
> another pair of overalls
> (about 12 quid for another pair of secondhand volvo overalls) and
> _maybe_
> a load of steel.
>
> The most important aspect of using the angle grinder and welder is
> safety.
> If you can use the equipment safely you can teach yourself to weld.
> I'm sure there are instructional video's on youtube if you really need
> them.
>
> I will be around the space at random times over the bank holiday
> weekend.
> If you played with fire as a child and can solder reasonably well I'd
> be quite happy
> to give you a short safety lecture and left you get on with it.
>
> I imagine there will be quite a few people in the space friday to
> monday
> so 4AM to 10AM is likely to be the best time.
>
> It would be great if the wombles that fill the place with junk could
> find
> more hefty steel.
>
> Adam
> (mobile number on wiki page)
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