Internet policy

[S. Cook]

tl;dr do we actually have a policy on torrenting/'net use in general, as far as I know we don't beyond "be excellent to one another". If we have up/download limits I'm assuming this needs to change (to at least establish some guidelines).

I think before we go looking for technical solutions we just make it clear what our policy on torrenting is. As far as I know the policy has been "don't take the piss", "only when net use is low".

If our new broadband has download/upload limits obviously this needs to change (I'd assume to "dont") but even then there are likely to be caveats (e.g. downloading ubuntu).

S

[Russ Garrett]

We just hammered one together. I think it's nice and concise:

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Internet_Use_Policy

This really should be linked to from the rules, which will give it
some weight (and also mean that the grievance procedure applies in
case of violations). I'm working on a fairly substantial
rearchitecting of the rules which I'll include this in. Until then
it's just a guideline.

Any suggestions?

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Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Nick Johnson]

I feel like the rules page needs something akin to "Do not endanger the hackspace's existence or its ability to provide services to members", which would implicitly cover things like using the internet connection for copyright infringement.

-Nick

[David Murphy]

For 1 I'd probably make it more general: just anything which may lead to us getting disconnected or fined or which is likely to get the hackspace sued as this would include our service providers terms of service as well and things we might not have considered. 

On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:

[Russ Garrett]

On 4 June 2013 12:53, David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For 1 I'd probably make it more general: just anything which may lead to us
> getting disconnected or fined or which is likely to get the hackspace sued
> as this would include our service providers terms of service as well and
> things we might not have considered.

I'd be curious to hear what might result in us being disconnected
which isn't illegal? Our ISPs' terms of service are pretty reasonable,
I don't think there's any case where.

At any rate, the point of our rules is not to be legally watertight;
they aim to be concise and readable.

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Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Jim MacArthur]

Generic rules like this don't help people know how to act. I don't believe anyone will actually intend to endanger the hackspace's existence, but downloading in large volumes or material you're not entitled to isn't obviously wrong to all people (otherwise this issue would not have arisen). 

On 4 June 2013 12:53, David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nick Johnson]

I disagree. As far as I can see it, there's not currently any rule that covers copyright infringement using the space's connection (or any other illegal action, for that matter), but hopefully people recognize that doing this is Not Okay. A rule like that would make it a clear violation instead of a "seems like a bad thing".

-Nick

[chrisbob12]

Perhaps a list of activities with bad consequences? Disconnection is bad, but if there were a demonstrable copyright infringement, who gets busted?

[chrisbob12]

People may not intend to endanger the space, but indifference can be more dangerous than malice.

[Mark Steward]

Are you suggesting a rule that says "don't break the law"?  Would it actually be any use?

Mark

[Nick Johnson]

AA, at least, has a flag you can set on your account that indicates whether or not you're a "service provider". Which is pretty fuzzy under the law, but if you are one, your users are liable for infringment, rather than you.

-Nick 

On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:06 PM, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Perhaps a list of activities with bad consequences? Disconnection is bad, but if there were a demonstrable copyright infringement, who gets busted?

[Metz]

The three rules of Hackspacing:-

1. A hacker may not injure the hackspace or, through inaction, allow the hackspace to come to harm.
2. A hacker must obey the orders given to it by trustees, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A hacker must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
   

Ok...so number 2 is probably going too far ;)

[Martin (Crypt)]

Well, i'd actually say protecting my existance is more important than any of the other 2 laws ..
*beep*I am not a robot *beeb*

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[Bacon Zombie]

So going by these 3 rules, a hacker must obey the orders given to it
by trustees even if they are against UK Law?

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BaconZombie

LOAD "*",8,1

[Nigel Worsley]

> The three rules of Hackspacing:-

> A hacker may not injure the hackspace or, through inaction, allow the hackspace to come to harm.

> A hacker must obey the orders given to it by trustees, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

> A hacker must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

 

Just in case anyone doesn’t know the origin of these rules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics

 

Nigle

 

[Martin (Crypt)]

Doh ... someone always has to go spoil the geeky injoke with an explanation for the luddites :(

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[tgreer]

Oh stop fucking bikeshedding. Seriously.  If you have no reasonable input shut up.

[Mark Steward]

Please keep civil on the mailing list. Adding to noise and escalating impolitely is a strong invitation for moderation.

Mark

[Alison W]

Re d/l (via torrent or otherwise) large software files (such as OSes) would it be a useful thing to create a local mirror for them? People could then just copy that instead of the hackspace see it downloaded multiple times.

(This assumes that people _are_ d/l ubuntu et al releases and not just using it as a straw man in this argument)

[Jasper Wallace]

On Tue, 4 Jun 2013, Alison W wrote:

> Re d/l (via torrent or otherwise) large software files (such as OSes) would it be a useful thing to create a local mirror for them?
> People could then just copy that instead of the hackspace see it downloaded multiple times.

Yes, but the tricky bit is making people aware of the mirror. We also
don't have any machines with large amounts of disk space atm we can use
as a file server - we have alods of 500Gb 3.5in sata drives that are
earmarked for doing that, but no easy place to put large numbers of them.
I've got 3 in the machine that was netbootyboxxy but havn't finished
seting it up (root on zfs, need to get it booting).

Hmm, babbage has a 668Gb mirror thats currently unmounted?

What we do have that might be useful to some people is a netboot server,
but it only has Debian wheezy and voyage for as install images, i (or
someone) needs to add Ubuntu to it. it's also got some utility stuff like
dban, memtest, and partition magic.

We could also do with an apt-proxy/cache thing, would be good for the
machines inside the space.

> (This assumes that people _are_ d/l ubuntu et al releases and not just using it as a straw man in this argument)

There are usually ubuntu iso's in the downloads folder on tesla.

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