Re: [london-hack-space] Getting rid of some useless stuff

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Elliot West

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:38:16 AM6/8/11
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On 8 June 2011 12:34, Adam Page <adam...@gmail.com> wrote:
be thrown in the skip next week unless someone claims it or scraps it for the meters.

I would like the meters but won't be heart-broken if they go in the bin.

I agree with all of your suggestions!

Martin Dittus

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:43:05 AM6/8/11
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I also agree, but I have a general bias for getting rid of old things and have been told off for it in the past so maybe don't (just) listen to me. :D

Thanks for the thorough research, this is a great summary!

m.

George Buckenham

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:50:18 AM6/8/11
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I think this CRT is out of the arcade machine. I think that the
related electronics have been scrapped and there is now a monitor
inside
the arcade machine cabinet?

I worry that someone is going to put a boot through this CRT while
looking for the light switches. I gather CRT implosions can be nasty.
Can this be disposed of?

http://ansteckend.org.uk/HST/5.jpg
http://ansteckend.org.uk/HST/6.jpg

I put it there, and yes, I agree. If it was a more reasonable size, it would have been put inside the 3 week box, but I had to compromise by putting it next to it, and telling the mailing list I did so. I didn't just chuck it immediately as there was general interest in the guts of the arcade machine, and so I thought someone might want it. On a similar note, the controller board and games are still cluttering up the inside of the machine - Adrian Godwin wanted them if no-one else has a use for it. If you do - please take it! (The rest of the games are in one of the coin boxes)


Oh, and thank you for doing this! It is so necessary.

--George

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 8, 2011, 8:02:27 AM6/8/11
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On 6/8/11, Adam Page <adam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I would like to get some not so useful stuff out of the space.
>
> The Hackspace is not a museum. We can't keep stuff just because it's
> interesting,
> it has to be useful (or really awesome).
>
> I propose that the old wooden electrical panel from the motorbike
> factory

> be thrown in the skip next week unless someone claims it or scraps it
> for the
> meters.
>

Actually, I think that IS pretty awesome. It could be mounted on the
wall and would take up no useful space at all. Reducing it to just the
meters would be wanton destruction.

-adrian

Dave Durant

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Jun 8, 2011, 8:23:38 AM6/8/11
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The Symbian stuff would quite possibly be picked up by people I know
who worked on early Symbian stuff to go towards a museum of that tech
(I work for Symbian for years). Let me know if you'd like me to ask.

I very much agree about the board with the dials - drill some hopes
and put it on on a wall long before chucking it. Maybe someday someone
will hack it to do something useful :-).

Russ Garrett

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Jun 8, 2011, 8:33:35 AM6/8/11
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On 8 June 2011 13:23, Dave Durant <chol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Symbian stuff would quite possibly be picked up by people I know
> who worked on early Symbian stuff to go towards a museum of that tech
> (I work for Symbian for years). Let me know if you'd like me to ask.

The Symbian stuff is Jenny's and it's on loan. If we're getting rid of
it (which I'm in favour of), she'd like it back.

I agree about the crazy board with the lights on, let's put it on the wall.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

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Nigel Worsley

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Jun 8, 2011, 8:59:23 AM6/8/11
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> You can nominate other stuff that has been taking up space for a long
time and not being used.

Makerbot?

Nigle

Tim Hutt

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:03:44 AM6/8/11
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On 8 June 2011 13:02, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It could be mounted on the
> wall and would take up no useful space at all.

Wall space is very useful and fairly limited.

Elliot West

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:07:39 AM6/8/11
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If anything it's hacked too much :)

Tim Storey

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:08:33 AM6/8/11
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I rather like the crazy panel myself, but that is sentiment talking. In general I am not in favour of just collecting junk... if is is in use, has a use or is about to fulfill the last statement then keep it. If it is just a 'oh I might use that for something' throw it away.
Space is a premium to my mind and I would rather see a changing pile of  junk/interesting otherwise its too easy for people to use the space as a dumping ground under the innocent guise of re-use

t

On 8 June 2011 13:59, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Russ Garrett

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:09:13 AM6/8/11
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On 8 June 2011 13:48, Adam Page <adam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to build a concensus  so lets have more opinions.
> Do people want to fill a space with old stuff and pay to keep it
> forever or throw stuff as people drag more junk in and have
> a constantly changing set of interesting things?

That's a good little false dichotomy you've got going on there. There
are plenty of pieces of wall which aren't suitable for shelving (such
as high up above doors and windows).

I'm one of the most strict people about keeping the hackspace
junk-free, but I don't mind old hardware if it takes up no floor/shelf
space and adds a bit to the atmosphere.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Katie Sutton

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:11:01 AM6/8/11
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On 8 June 2011 13:59, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:

It's working and being used right now :o

--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org

"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson

Sam Cook

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:11:41 AM6/8/11
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I'm pretty sure we can find somewhere to put it

+1 on keeping it. 

amx109

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:15:48 AM6/8/11
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I propose that the old wooden electrical panel from the motorbike
factory
be thrown in the skip next week unless someone claims it or scraps it
for the
meters.


i think i was talking to Mark about this, and possibly mounting it on the wall near the entrance.

it could scare the pants off you as you enter by lighting up, crackling and spouting zombo.com'isms in the voice of jonty.

please dont chuck it away.

Amran

Ben Blundell

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:26:14 AM6/8/11
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The panel is cool. If no-one wants it could someone put it in my Box
(ONI) and I'll take it apart and take it home whilst throwing out the
remains? Im due down at the space in the next month or so.

Cheers
Ben

--
--
(>) SECTION9 * Benjamin Blundell
(>) b...@section9.co.uk * www.section9.co.uk
(>) Code, Design, Graphic, Web

Jim MacArthur

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:32:05 AM6/8/11
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I agree with what Adam's saying and unfortunately I think we are going to have to chuck out a lot of awesome stuff. I think the space's most useful feature is the space, not the materials.

With regard to the lamp panel, it's only been suggested that we throw it out next week, not immediately, which leaves plenty of time for an interested party to mount it to a wall.

Jim

amx109

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:41:55 AM6/8/11
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if its not mounted by next Tuesday, i'll be doing it then. unfortunately i cant get to the space between now and then.

The unattainable is unknown..

Amran

Jasper Wallace

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Jun 8, 2011, 11:24:29 AM6/8/11
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On Wed, 8 Jun 2011, Adam Page wrote:

> I'v been told that the owner of the symbian developement units does
> not
> want them to be dismantled and thought someone might want to use them.
> That was long before the Nokia windows mobile deal.
>
> The display of small symbian dev hardware unit is getting gouged
> because
> someone dumped a useless old wooden electrical panel on top of it.
> As far as I am aware there is no software or documentation for the
> symbian
> development units and it's unlikely that anyone wants to work on
> symbian.
>
> I propose that unless anyone expresses an interest in these units in
> the
> next few days we get in touch with the owner and ask that they be
> taken away.

I'll have these and can look after them at home if no-one has any
immediate use for them.


--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

Kieran Kunhya

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Jun 8, 2011, 11:26:02 AM6/8/11
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> This little grey TV has been cluttering up the dirty room for a while.
> Does anyone have a plan for it?
>
> http://ansteckend.org.uk/HST/7.jpg

I use it for IPTV stuff now and then but I don't care if it goes.

Charles Yarnold

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Jun 8, 2011, 11:26:24 AM6/8/11
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+1 agreed

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 8, 2011, 11:49:33 AM6/8/11
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Some is, but plenty is hard to use efficiently, and some is used by
temporary installations which were placed purely because nothing else
was there. And decoration is a valid use : I'm sure nobody begrudges
the wallspace used by the robot painting, for instance.

Suggestions as to where it could be mounted are welcome : somewhere
near the alarm panel would be my choice but there may be a better
alternative.


It's important to keep things in proportion, and to prioritise : for
instance, the woodpile is a valuable resource but has a cost. When
that cost becomes too high (if we cannot make room for something we
want) then it should be compared against the cost of buying new
whenever it's needed. Most commercial organisations have gone down
this route and find it cheaper to buy just-in-time than to hold
stocks, but that results in a cost to creativity that's difficult to
quantify.

-adrian

Sam Cook

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Jun 8, 2011, 1:46:26 PM6/8/11
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It's important to keep things in proportion, and to prioritise : for
instance, the woodpile is a valuable resource but has a cost. When
that cost becomes too high (if we cannot make room for something we
want) then it should be compared against the cost of buying new
whenever it's needed. Most commercial organisations have gone down
this route and find it cheaper to buy just-in-time than to hold
stocks, but that results in a cost to creativity that's difficult to
quantify.

I'm assuming this is a hypothetical argument and I would agree in general but I would say we want to be careful about a few things:

First a lot of the utility of the hackspace both as a workshop and a learning environment comes from having materials on hand that don't need to be paid for because it means you don't have to worry too much if you just want to experiment. 

Secondly we should be careful about relying too much on what's done in commercial organisations, they make a good source of information but we're not a commercial group so what may work for them won't work for us. E.g. using just-in-time ordering works if you have a well set up ordering system and a good network of suppliers that lets you do negotiate good deals on the promise of repeat custom, that's less useful for us unless we start organising (and maintaining) supplier tie ins. 

on a related note: what happened to the metal stock box idea? I liked that (in addition to the scrap stuff we have)

Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm just not sure how. 

also thanks to Adam for starting this

*shuts up*

S


Charles Yarnold

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Jun 8, 2011, 2:36:52 PM6/8/11
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/me nods in agreement

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 8, 2011, 2:40:33 PM6/8/11
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On 6/8/11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> First a lot of the utility of the hackspace both as a workshop and a
> learning environment comes from having materials on hand that don't need to
> be paid for because it means you don't have to worry too much if you just
> want to experiment.
>

I agree - that was part of my my 'cost to creativity'.

It's worth considering the costs involved in keeping stocks on hand
vs. buying to order (especially when 'on hand' is usually the result
of a bargain or a gift) but don't underestimate the value of having
what you want ready to experiment at the moment you need it.
Much hacking is, by it's nature, gloriously unplanned.

-adrian

Sci

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:24:46 PM6/8/11
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On 08/06/2011 16:26, Charles Yarnold wrote:
> On 8 June 2011 14:11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com

> <mailto:sam.lind...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 8 June 2011 14:03, Tim Hutt <tdh...@gmail.com
> <mailto:tdh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On 8 June 2011 13:02, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com
> <mailto:artg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > It could be mounted on the
> > wall and would take up no useful space at all.
>
> Wall space is very useful and fairly limited.
>
>
> I'm pretty sure we can find somewhere to put it
>
> +1 on keeping it.
>
> +1 agreed

+1 only if someone adds a double-pole knife-switch to it that activates
a jacobs ladder.
Optional on the hunchbacked Igor.

~ Sci

amx109

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:27:43 AM6/9/11
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màybe this is what we can use the flash Gordon switch for...

Mike

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:30:23 AM6/9/11
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On Wed, Jun 08, 2011 at 06:46:26PM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
>
> Secondly we should be careful about relying too much on what's done in
> commercial organisations, they make a good source of information but we're
> not a commercial group so what may work for them won't work for us. E.g.
> using just-in-time ordering works if you have a well set up ordering system
> and a good network of suppliers that lets you do negotiate good deals on the
> promise of repeat custom, that's less useful for us unless we start
> organising (and maintaining) supplier tie ins.
>

If the Space worked like a commerical organisation it would use massive
amounts of time and resouces to produce absolutely nothing. Hans
Christian Andersen famously wrote a book about how the commercial world
works, called The Emperor's New Clothes.

The other draw back to the JiT approach is that it relies on having a
set product to build. You know exactly the components required and how
long it takes to build, so you know exactly when everything has to turn
up. Another advantage for JiT in industry is that the components
ordered are required for the product. Having a bucket of screws on the
shop floor means that 90% of them get used fixing the kids' gokart.

>
> Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some
> point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
> just not sure how.
>

This is agreed. Unit 23 is currently a shithole. It's slightly akward
in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.

It's obvisouly a ball ache holding stores in London, given the cost of
real estate. Maybe we could explore our options. Here's a few off the
cuff, radical, ramblings to throw into the melting pot (don't
necessarilly take any of them too seriously):

* Hire another unit. A stores doesn't necessarily need to be adjacent
to the Space.
* Start a campagin of anti-social behaviour/intimidation towards to
adjacent units until they are vacant
* Hire a Big Yellow unit
* Hire a large warehouse up North (another idea borrowed from industry)
* Smuggle a shipping container onto the roof of the Business Centre

Mike.

signature.asc

Bob Clough

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:37:05 AM6/9/11
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* Hire a large warehouse up North (another idea borrowed from industry)

If you decide on this one, make sure its in Manchester, HACMan will be happy to caretake it for you :P 

Billy

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Jun 9, 2011, 9:43:43 AM6/9/11
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> > Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some
> > point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
> > just not sure how.
>
> This is agreed.  Unit 23 is currently a shithole.  It's slightly akward
> in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
> the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.
>
> It's obvisouly a ball ache holding stores in London, given the cost of
> real estate.  Maybe we could explore our options.  Here's a few off the
> cuff, radical, ramblings to throw into the melting pot (don't
> necessarilly take any of them too seriously):
>
> * Hire another unit.  A stores doesn't necessarily need to be adjacent
> to the Space.

Awkward and expensive. We'll need to pay for the storage unit, pay
for a way of moving the stuff when it's needed, and a way of asorting
out the arguments when people say, "We need this here", "No! We need
THAT stuff!", yadda, yadda, yadda...

> * Start a campagin of anti-social behaviour/intimidation towards to
> adjacent units until they are vacant

Unlikely, they're all fairly well established and using them as long-
term studio spaces. They are also worth talking to, the people in Unit
25 do a lot of CGI work, and are always looking for free-lancers...

> * Hire a Big Yellow unit

They are over-priced for the space they offer you....

> * Hire a large warehouse up North (another idea borrowed from industry)

More expense. Might be worth considering when we move from this
current site, though the location of Units 24 & 24 are great, as far
as centrality, and easy-to-get-to-ish-ness. It'll work when helping
other people to set up hackspaces in other locations.

> * Smuggle a shipping container onto the roof of the Business Centre

Sadly, the roof won't hold it. I had a look up there, and it's only as
strong as a cheap corrugated plastic roof. You need duckboards to walk
on it.

But if we stick a single-size shipping container in one of the car-
parking spaces we have, it would work.

Permanently attach a parking permit and it won't get towed. Bolt it
down to the ground, so it doesn't get stolen.

Get more than one, and we could start stacking them up, though we'll
need to weld some stairs to side....




Tim Hutt

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Jun 9, 2011, 9:59:58 AM6/9/11
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Ok, what about this idea:

We make stickers that have maybe 3 weeks worth of day check boxes
(i.e. M,T,W,T,F,S,S,M,T,W,T,F,S,S....). When you bring something to
the space put a sticker on it. Then anyone can cross the current day
off. When the days run out the item gets thrown, and I don't think it
should require discussion (unless it is obviously a really nice
thing). If something doesn't have a sticker on it, you can add one.

This way you don't have to work out dates, and can't leave the project
finish date blank or unrealistically far in the future and we can
guarantee that random crap like the toy piano (really?), the traffic
lights, bike frames and wheels, and the accurately named "Box O'
Broken Shit" are removed.

Just a suggestion.

By the way, for throwing stuff out does it all go in the skip, or is
there some other system for electronics, scrap metal and so on?

Tim

Robert Leverington

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Jun 9, 2011, 10:05:15 AM6/9/11
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On 2011-06-09, Mike wrote:
> > Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some
> > point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
> > just not sure how.
> >
>
> This is agreed. Unit 23 is currently a shithole. It's slightly akward
> in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
> the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.

I think that if we are getting to the point where we need to get another
unit purely for storage then we should seriously consider what we are
keeping in the space. At the moment I would say that what we have looks
a lot more than it actually it is.

Right now we keep:
- members boxes, these need to stay in the space;
- scrap wood, I think this pile is too big, but it's virtually all
replaceable fairly easily and should be reduced if we need the space;
- tubs containing tools, needs to stay in the space;
- tubs containing useful parts, there isn't a lot of this.
Have I missed anything? A lot of the random stuff lying about is stuff
that we should get rid of.

Right now we are in no position to take on a further commitment of
space, and I'm not convinced the storage business is something we want
to get in to.

I do not think Workspace Group will allow us to put a storage container
in one of our car parking spaces, nor is this a good use of one of our
spaces.

Robert

Sci

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Jun 9, 2011, 10:37:06 AM6/9/11
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On 09/06/2011 14:43, Billy wrote:
>>> Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some
>>> point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
>>> just not sure how.
>>
>> This is agreed. Unit 23 is currently a shithole. It's slightly akward
>> in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
>> the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.
>>
>> It's obvisouly a ball ache holding stores in London, given the cost of
>> real estate. Maybe we could explore our options. Here's a few off the
>> cuff, radical, ramblings to throw into the melting pot (don't
>> necessarilly take any of them too seriously):

>> * Smuggle a shipping container onto the roof of the Business Centre


>
> Sadly, the roof won't hold it. I had a look up there, and it's only as
> strong as a cheap corrugated plastic roof. You need duckboards to walk
> on it.
>
> But if we stick a single-size shipping container in one of the car-
> parking spaces we have, it would work.
>
> Permanently attach a parking permit and it won't get towed. Bolt it
> down to the ground, so it doesn't get stolen.

If this is a permitted use for the parking spaces, it's a possibility.
However is it worthwhile? What manner of things would be stored there?

Remember the car park is two stories down. If it's equipment stored in
it, then it's equipment being used exceptionally rarely and will be very
frustrating to get to readily. Same for anything considered too big for
the space. If it's being used so rarely and getting in the way so much
it has to be stored outside of the space, why are we keeping it at all?
Likewise using a container for peoples project storage we run into the
same troubles; it's not very convenient. And also if it's frequently
accessed it draws attention to it and exponentially increases the odds
or a security snafu such as forgetting to replace keys, not locking it
up properly, etc..

A shipping container is also not as environmentally stable. It will get
very hot or cold in each season and it will not be moisture-proof
without a lot of careful refurbishment. (any 20ft container bought for
less than ~�1000 is going to have holes rusted in the top and/or dents
that compromise seals). Wood will warp, electronics will get too humid,
bar stock will rust.

It would be a big and expensive project to install for negligible return. :/
I would like a shipping container as a quasi-portable workshop of my own
at some point in the future, so I appreciate how useful they can be as
prefab buildings, but installing one as a storage unit simply because
we're incapable of keeping the existing area tidy is not a solution.

Yes we have some useless stuff around, and we have a lot of apparently
seldom-touched projects taking up floor space. However we are also not
using the existing space very well yet IMO.
For example we've still got, what? Two feet or more of space between the
top of the member boxes on the shelves and the ceiling? At first blush
I'm inclined to suggest something like classic library shelves with a
ladder on rails, but all we really need is a set of steps and members
not silly enough to put heavy boxes up top.
By taking advantage of the vertical space we could probably halve the
floorspace used by the shelves. Same for most of the other storage racks.

Use the vertical space first!

I'm quite happy to knock up a set of portable stairs to assist in this.

For bigger stuff we just need to keep an eye out for some warehouse
pallet rack. The sort of slot-together stuff that can take a tonne on
each shelf. While large it would allow stacking of the larger/heavier
more awkward minority of project items that can obstruct floor space.

Most are 2.5 to 2.7m long, but their load bearing capacity could mean
the wood store could go on the top shelf in it's entirety and bulky
projects underneath.

There's several on ebay atm, under �100. I'm sure they can be found
cheaply elsewhere too. I may even be able to get some for free locally
when the local branch of Focus closes. I've had some from there before,
years ago.

~ Sci

Sci

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Jun 9, 2011, 10:38:58 AM6/9/11
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> There's several on ebay atm, under �100. I'm sure they can be found
> cheaply elsewhere too. I may even be able to get some for free locally
> when the local branch of Focus closes. I've had some from there before,
> years ago.
>
> ~ Sci
>

EG: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/320710583821

�80, no bids, 4days to go, collect from Colchester.

Sci

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Jun 9, 2011, 2:38:35 PM6/9/11
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We have a Flash Gordon switch? o_o

On 09/06/2011 09:27, amx109 wrote:
> m�ybe this is what we can use the flash Gordon switch for...


>
> On Jun 9, 2011 2:24 AM, "Sci" <s...@sci-fi-fox.com

> <mailto:s...@sci-fi-fox.com>> wrote:
>> On 08/06/2011 16:26, Charles Yarnold wrote:
>>> On 8 June 2011 14:11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sam.lind...@gmail.com>

>>> <mailto:sam.lind...@gmail.com


> <mailto:sam.lind...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8 June 2011 14:03, Tim Hutt <tdh...@gmail.com
> <mailto:tdh...@gmail.com>

>>> <mailto:tdh...@gmail.com <mailto:tdh...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8 June 2011 13:02, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com
> <mailto:artg...@gmail.com>

cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:30:17 PM6/9/11
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Stickers...
Sounds very complicated compared to a "do hack" sticker with a clearly
marked expiry date not to exceed 3 weeks.

Toy Piano...
There was a mailing list post about this....

//////////////////////////////////////////////
It works, is playable, has a few instruments, the keys light up when
pressed, the notes are displayed accurately on an LCD display as you
play, and there's accent lights. There's also a mic jack (cheap jack,
poor connection) and a foot pedal jack.

It's a nice little toy, and could actually help someone learn piano. But
I have no use for it. That it auto-displays sheet music and has light-up
keys, I'm sure someone else can make use of it.

~ Sci
////////////////////////////////////////////////

So not just a toy, but something that "might" interest someone who feels a
bit of hacking coming on. Which I believe is the general purpose of the 3
week box. A suitable label would deal with this.

Traffic lights...
These are someones project, (forget who, but I nearly "stole" his holdall
that had been lying around so long that it ended up in the three week
bin!) luckily I was in the space when he was enquiring about it. Perhaps
he will make himself known.


Throwing stuff out...
Rubbish generally just goes in the skip, a certain amount of stuff (beer
vessels, soop tins, plastic food containers, cardboard etc.) is recycled
via the local authority collection bins, but we have no specific system
for other scrap. It would be nice to be able to save it until there is
enough to take to a scrapyard. The main problem is that segregated storage
of the different scrap materials is bulky and difficult to manage in an
environment where sweeping the floor is beyond the capability of many
users. Transport is also an issue, as a saleable quantity of scrap is a
bit of a challenge on a pushbike.

Something that would definitely be worthwhile is a "gold scrap" box for
old circuit boards, connectors, semiconductors etc. that contain precious
metals. I was involved in this kind of recycling a while ago, and the
yield from even a relatively small quantity of these items is surprisingly
high.


Phil


--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:10:59 PM6/9/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 6/9/11, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
>
> For bigger stuff we just need to keep an eye out for some warehouse
> pallet rack. The sort of slot-together stuff that can take a tonne on
> each shelf. While large it would allow stacking of the larger/heavier
> more awkward minority of project items that can obstruct floor space.
>
> Most are 2.5 to 2.7m long, but their load bearing capacity could mean
> the wood store could go on the top shelf in it's entirety and bulky
> projects underneath.
>
> There's several on ebay atm, under £100. I'm sure they can be found
> cheaply elsewhere too. I may even be able to get some for free locally
> when the local branch of Focus closes. I've had some from there before,
> years ago.
>

There's regularly good quality racking at the auction place I keep an
eye on. It can probably be obtained for the same price as the
lightweight racking we've used for members boxes. However, it's no
good talking about it when it comes up - you have to be ready to go,
and looking for the right sort of bargain.

Give me a budget, a requirement spec and an urgency spec and I'll keep
an eye out for a bargain. The industrial tool sale coming up on June
16th is one possibility, though I don't recall seeing a lot of racking
there.

-adrian

Sci

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Jun 9, 2011, 7:46:38 PM6/9/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com

Spec will mean some measuring in the space. While we could chop
something too-tall down a bit, we should get ceiling height and the rest
worked out.
The large wide shelves would be perfect for the sheet materials if we
can get one with lots of close together shelves. Wood, metal and plastics.
Long timbers and poles should also be able to store on such shelves as
it's not going in a corner and they can be slid-out the ends of the
shelf rather than digging back for them from the front.

Working from memory & the hackspace webcam feed (btw, thanks to whoever
put the anti-glare cowl on the camera), I think a 2.7-3m wide rack with
the first shelf about 3ft up could fit all the obstructive items in the
middle of the room stored under it, no problem.
That shelf (#1) could hold the metal stock at one end and scrap lengths
at the other.
Wood sheets above that (#2). Wood lengths above that (#3). Then sheet
plastics and plastic scraps/bars (plastics being found in smaller sizes
than wood, assuming just one shelf, so #4), laser-only plastics & woods
above that along with any other specialised materials that don't want to
be used for generalised hacking (#5).
For the span, the shelf members will likely be quite thick, so probably
wouldn't be able to fit more than 5 shelves anyway with the fairly
raised first shelf to allow floor-storage.

I doodled the layout quickly in SAI. :P
http://www.sci-fi-fox.com/offsitelinked/hackspace%20shelves%20doodle.jpg

So preliminary spec I'd say 2.7-3m span, meter or so deep, each shelf
being able to take 300Kg for safety. Ideally with bolt-down feet (though
we could bolt/weld brackets ourselves) and a common enough standard that
we can acquire more parts if necessary, as well as made in such a way
that the ends of the shelves can be accessed, not just the front edge.
That sound ok so far? (remember, this is without actual dimensions of
the space to hand)

As far as budget goes, I don't know. A pledge doesn't really work if we
don't have a set figure. This seems to be more of a whip-round sort of
thing. Ballpark, if the current spec is okay, I reckon we could get it
all for �70-80, though we'd still have to arrange collection.

I don't think there's a massive rush for it all, but with how impatient
some are getting with the state of 23, sooner the better.

Let's get the measurements and firm up the spec a little more first.
Moving that amount of racking & materials around is something I only
want to do once, so let's get it right first time.


While a separate issue, the shelves where the 3-week boxes are could
also do with changing. They don't need to be as large as the ones
described above, but the ones that are currently there get used a lot
and are only centre-supported shelves. They wobble a lot. If we're
looking for shelving some medium-duty shelving to cover the wall from
the doorway up to the multi-machine might be a good idea. Something just
a bit more rigid than what's used for the member-box shelves.

~ Sci

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 10, 2011, 2:36:15 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com, london-hack-space-infrastructure
cc'd to the infrastructure list in an effort to move it there ..

On 6/10/11, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
>
> -- good stuff snipped --
>

>
> As far as budget goes, I don't know. A pledge doesn't really work if we
> don't have a set figure. This seems to be more of a whip-round sort of
> thing. Ballpark, if the current spec is okay, I reckon we could get it
> all for £70-80, though we'd still have to arrange collection.
>

It's infrastructure rather than project, so ideally should come out of
hackspace funds. But I appreciate there aren't many of those right
now. The knitting machine has a similar pledge - it's a pot to be
available for the right auction. We'd just need to specify how to deal
with overpledges (eg by taking less than was offered, or using the
extra for something else) and dealing with the need to pay out on
short notice. I'd happily put £20 in a pot.


> I don't think there's a massive rush for it all, but with how impatient
> some are getting with the state of 23, sooner the better.

I only ask because what you pay depends on how long you wait : take
some time and you're more likely to find a bargain or something with
easy shipping. In the meantime, watch some auctions to get a better
idea of what stuff goes : then you can recognise a bargain when you
see something that meets the spec.

>
> While a separate issue, the shelves where the 3-week boxes are could
> also do with changing. They don't need to be as large as the ones
> described above, but the ones that are currently there get used a lot
> and are only centre-supported shelves. They wobble a lot. If we're
> looking for shelving some medium-duty shelving to cover the wall from
> the doorway up to the multi-machine might be a good idea. Something just
> a bit more rigid than what's used for the member-box shelves.
>

Maybe we could do a smaller rack as a trial run ? Less to invest, less
to transport, less to build ?

-adrian

Billy

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Jun 10, 2011, 4:02:34 AM6/10/11
to London Hackspace

Surely we could build a rack out of the timber?

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 10, 2011, 4:40:11 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
That would be excellent, if the timber's the right shape (though a
metal rack tends to have more spce in it - the rails are narrower).

I thought it was mostly chunks of plywood and hardwood, we'd need some
long spars.

-adrian

tom

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Jun 10, 2011, 5:22:35 AM6/10/11
to London Hackspace
Traffic lights are mine and have a "do not hack" sticker on them,
they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!

Nigel Worsley

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Jun 10, 2011, 5:32:46 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
> Traffic lights are mine and have a "do not hack" sticker on them,
> they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!

Have you considered buying a stand instead? These would do the job:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/heavy-duty-loudspeaker-stand-3408
http://www.studiospares.com/stands-speaker/studiospares-airpump-speaker-stand/invt/448820/

Nigle

Russ Garrett

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Jun 10, 2011, 5:33:55 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 10 June 2011 10:22, tom <bollo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Traffic lights are mine and have a "do not hack" sticker on them,
> they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!

Hang them on a wall?

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Sam Cook

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Jun 10, 2011, 6:09:39 AM6/10/11
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On 9 June 2011 15:05, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote: 
 At the moment I would say that what we have looks a lot more than it actually it is.

Agreed, I think the largest culprit is the set of less than useful tables and pile of crap where the last fm servers used to be. This is a fairly large chunk of space that could be much more usefully occupied by an actual work bench (for example). 

I also think that certain items can be more sanely arranged (eg. moving the storage stuff from  in front of the window to sit with the electronics stuff; actually using the massive amounts of shelving that phil's put up for us. 
 
Right now we keep:
 - members boxes, these need to stay in the space;
 - scrap wood, I think this pile is too big, but it's virtually all
  replaceable fairly easily and should be reduced if we need the space;

I would disagree with this, the pile needs regular check throughs (and is probably due another) to get rid of crap small bits but I think there is a good amount of wood that you would struggle to just pick up (without paying for). One thing that it may benefit from is being pushed back again and a it's enclosure strengthening. 

Although yes, if we really need the space it can be reduced. I just think currently there are savings that can be made elsewhere. 
 
 - tubs containing tools, needs to stay in the space;
 - tubs containing useful parts, there isn't a lot of this.
Have I missed anything?  A lot of the random stuff lying about is stuff
that we should get rid of.

yes, benches & tables. IIRC there are currently 3 fold-out workmen's benches, 1 draftsman's table and 2 desks sitting in unit 23. The workman's benches are useful but at most you only need two (in order to cut large pieces of wood etc). The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not sturdy enough to work on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it worthless to work on. The two desks, while reasonable surfaces aren't tall enough nor sturdy enough for most of the work that gets done in the workshop. Perhaps ditching some/all of these will get us some more useable space?

Oh and welding stuff.... Has anyone actually done any welding? we have two largish screens and two welders and some safety gear. Is this actually going to start? I would love to learn to weld but currently this stuff just seems to be gathering dust. 

 Right now we are in no position to take on a further commitment of
space, and I'm not convinced the storage business is something we want
to get in to.
 
agreed


S

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 10, 2011, 7:02:06 AM6/10/11
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On 6/10/11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would disagree with this, the pile needs regular check throughs (and is
> probably due another) to get rid of crap small bits but I think there is a
> good amount of wood that you would struggle to just pick up (without paying
> for). One thing that it may benefit from is being pushed back again and a
> it's enclosure strengthening.

Yes, this is key : one day, we may need that space more than the wood.
But at present it's potentially more useful than untidy desks and
things that aren't put away : as Robert says, there's really quite a
lot of space if it's kept tidy. And quite a lot of it is hardwood and
thick, solid plywood, this is REALLY expensive. There's very little
actual crap in that pile. The laser offcuts are probably a lot worse.

> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not
> sturdy enough to work on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it
> worthless to work on.

Tricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
paper. So I think it needs to be reconsidered from time to time but
does have it's place if it can be kept. Eating pizza is actually more
important than it appears (no, really!) - it's not that there isn't
anywhere else for it, but putting all the greasy stuff in a single
place and cleaning it up afterwards actually saves an awful lot of
cleaning up everywhere else.

imho, of couse.

-adrian.

Sam Cook

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Jun 10, 2011, 7:14:37 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 10 June 2011 12:02, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
The laser offcuts are probably a lot worse.

oh gods yes, people seem to be treating the offcuts as a bin perhaps I should make a size guide next time I'm in... "must have this much contiguous material to ride, please remove excess" 
 
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not
> sturdy enough to work on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it
> worthless to work on.

Tricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
paper.

I hadn't thought of that, only the pizza use which we've managed before with ladders etc (not idea but it does work). I just wonder if it could be flat packed or similar or whether it might be worth making a trestle system to allow us to have the same functionality but taking up less space...

IM (not so) HO

S

Philippe Bradley

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Jun 10, 2011, 7:51:22 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 10 June 2011 12:14, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
Tricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
paper.

I hadn't thought of that, only the pizza use which we've managed before with ladders etc (not idea but it does work). I just wonder if it could be flat packed or similar or whether it might be worth making a trestle system to allow us to have the same functionality but taking up less space...
 
Or hoist it to the ceiling / have it flip up against a wall (like those fold-down beds)

Tim Hutt

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:08:33 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 10 June 2011 12:02, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And quite a lot of it is hardwood and
> thick, solid plywood, this is REALLY expensive. There's very little
> actual crap in that pile. The laser offcuts are probably a lot worse.

Agreed; there's some really nice wood in the pile.

>> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not
>> sturdy enough to work on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it
>> worthless to work on.
>
> Tricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
> work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
> strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
> paper.

These seem like pretty thin justifications for keeping it. There are
lots of other tables to eat pizza from...

Kathryn Rose

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:15:39 AM6/10/11
to London Hackspace
I would love to learn to weld; I have some brass instruments in poor
repair that I want to hack, though I think they might be rather
delicate to start with. But if there are two lots of welding equipment
then perhaps getting rid of one set is sensible.

Kathryn

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:32:52 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
They're different : one is a stick welder and the other is a Mig
welder. They're useful for different sorts of jobs.

Neither will do brass very well - for that, you need to hard-solder,
which actually requires simpler equipment (no need for shields or
masks) and though you can make a mess, you're rather less likely to
ruin the fabric of the work than you might with a welder (because
you're adding a filler metal rather than melting the base).

I could probably manage to show you after a bit of practice, though I
suspect Errant's interest in jewellry means she's more skilled at it.

-adrian

Simon Howes

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:35:08 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com

For brass instruments you'd really want to use brazing - much more delicate and suited to the task then a big dirty mig welder. You dont need screens for this.

Elliot West

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:52:22 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 10 June 2011 10:22, tom <bollo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Traffic lights are mine and have a "do not hack" sticker on them,
they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!

Perhaps take them home until you've figured it out? :-)

 

Sci

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Jun 10, 2011, 9:52:53 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
We could, but it would become non-trivial to make a wide-span all-wood
shelving setup where we can still easily adjust the shelf heights and
take the weight of a person or more in the middle of a 3m span.

We will need wood though as the cheaper shelving sets don't seem to come
with shelve surfaces, only supports. Bog standard chipboard should be
fine for that tho.

Sci

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Jun 10, 2011, 10:00:05 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 10/06/2011 12:14, Sam Cook wrote:
>
>
> On 10 June 2011 12:02, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com

It sounds like you're describing a paste-table. The sort of folding
ultra lightweight CHEAP table used for putting up wallpaper. If all it's
doing is holding occasional buffet food, one would be fine.

~ Sci

Sam Cook

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Jun 10, 2011, 10:06:01 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
It sounds like you're describing a paste-table. The sort of folding
ultra lightweight CHEAP table used for putting up wallpaper.

 I'll look at picking one up once I'm back from Japan.

thanks for the suggestion


Adrian Godwin

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Jun 10, 2011, 10:07:54 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
I'm not sure I'd trust a paste table with valuable stuff like pizza. I
like mine without floorsweeping garnish. But one or more folding
tables is a good idea - if we can find some strong ones they'd not
take up much space and would be very handy for busy workshops etc.

-adrian

On 6/10/11, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:

Alex Pounds

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Jun 10, 2011, 10:32:52 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:09:39AM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not sturdy enough to work
> on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it worthless to work on.

The draftsman's table is pretty awesome; it broke my heart to see that
we'd managed to rip the corner off it within a week of its arrival. (And
warmed my heart to see someone patched it up.) I've used it a few time for
measuring/marking/trimming large bits of card & plastic, and I've seen
other people use it when they needed a standing-level desk in the dirty
room for something light (eg. laptops, misc. pieces from projects,
lasers). I'd be sad if we threw it away.


--
Alex Pounds .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

Sam Cook

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Jun 10, 2011, 11:00:48 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 10 June 2011 15:32, Alex Pounds <al...@alexpounds.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:09:39AM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not sturdy enough to work
> on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it worthless to work on.

The draftsman's table is pretty awesome; it broke my heart to see that
we'd managed to rip the corner off it within a week of its arrival. (And
warmed my heart to see someone patched it up.) I've used it a few time for
measuring/marking/trimming large bits of card & plastic, and I've seen
other people use it when they needed a standing-level desk in the dirty
room for something light (eg. laptops, misc. pieces from projects,
lasers). I'd be sad if we threw it away.

It seems people have come up with uses for the draftsman's table so I guess it's not useless but I would still say that we don't need the large number of tables that we do have in unit 23. Personally I think that at most we need say 2 in there which should be large sturdy workbenches (although our existing one needs some TLC to be sturdy again). 

My main point was that there are currently a lot of not very useful tables in there. I'd rather have a large stable table that can be used for light things and heavy things rather than the current situation which is that if you want to do anything that requires a stable surface you have one crowded option and several heavily sub-par ones. eg a while ago I was helping a friend cut some chain and we ended up using the ex bench saw table and holding the vice by hand - this was not optimal when using a hacksaw. 

I would still argue that we can get something to replace the draftsman's table which can be packed away more easily because other than light things it's not that useful and does take up a fairly large area (maybe we can cut it's legs off and hinge them so that it can be folded away?

S

Sam Kelly

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Jun 10, 2011, 11:09:03 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Alex Pounds <al...@alexpounds.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:09:39AM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not sturdy enough to work
> on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it worthless to work on.

The draftsman's table is pretty awesome; it broke my heart to see that
we'd managed to rip the corner off it within a week of its arrival. (And
warmed my heart to see someone patched it up.) I've used it a few time for
measuring/marking/trimming large bits of card & plastic, and I've seen
other people use it when they needed a standing-level desk in the dirty
room for something light (eg. laptops, misc. pieces from projects,
lasers). I'd be sad if we threw it away.

I agree, and I also want to point out that a) the pivoting top locks, and b) the whole thing folds up for storage.

The fact that it's too flimsy to do heavy work on is actually a plus from my point of view, because it means that it gets less scarred and battered, preserving the surface for paper/card/etc. work, and doesn't get cluttered with heavy equipment the way the other surfaces in here do.

Keep.


--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

Alex Pounds

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Jun 10, 2011, 11:10:23 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 04:00:48PM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
> I would still argue that we can get something to replace the draftsman's
> table which can be packed away more easily because other than light things
> it's not that useful and does take up a fairly large area (maybe we can cut
> it's legs off and hinge them so that it can be folded away?

I think – though I'm not sure – that it folds up pretty much like a picnic
table, so it can be stored vertically when not in use.

Sam Kelly

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Jun 10, 2011, 11:19:24 AM6/10/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Alex Pounds <al...@alexpounds.com> wrote:

The draftsman's table is pretty awesome;
I agree, and I also want to point out that a) the pivoting top locks, and b) the whole thing folds up for storage.

Addendum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravenmagic/5817921823/ shows it folded up. It takes only slightly more space than a wallpaper table, it's more rigid, and it's really good to have a higher-level option than the others.