[london-hack-space] Cuting table pledge

[Wren Montgomery]

Spurred on by the large piece of sundeala in the space with my name on it -- it is labelled although the date is long expired-- and the forthcoming sewing workshop:

We haven't met the pledge yet [unless we get some awesomely discounted cork], and I've been too preoccupied with personal matters to raise awareness.

However, the issue that needs to be sorted out is where to store/use the cutting table as the ceiling is not a practical solution. 

The requirements as I see it:

Use: standard table or slightly higher height with access as close to 360 degrees as can be obtained.  Proximity to an outlet for ironing a plus.

Storage: the cork layer is the fragile part.  It needs to stay dry and be covered to prevent people from idly picking it to pieces because it's almost as fun as popping bubble wrap.  I would not be worried about heat from laptops damaging it but soldering irons could do some serious damage.  Likewise grease or food or liquid spills.

One possibility is to install the cutting surface permanently on a table, and put a cover of some kind over it, preferably one light enough (heavy canvas?  Not sure) to be removed by a single person.  I don't see any obvious problems with this.  Does anyone else?

Wren

[Jasper Wallace]

We have those large plastic sheets that came from the unit that closed
down.

--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

[Wren Montgomery]

I'm not sure what those are.  What kind of plastic?  Would they be a suitable desktop replacement?

Wren

[Jasper Wallace]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012, Wren Montgomery wrote:

> I'm not sure what those are.  What kind of plastic?  Would they be a suitable desktop replacement?

acrylic stuff, they where leaning against the same wall as the sundela
board last time i saw them. I may be over estimating there size.

--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

[Adrian Godwin]

6mm Hardboard is cheap and tough, comes in 8' x 4' sheets.

-adrian

[Adrian Godwin]

Or some of the spare carpet rolled up in the quiet room, if that
would be a suitable surface.

-adrian

[Wren Montgomery]

I personally would not use a carpet-covered desk for a desk but it is nearly ideal in terms of protectiveness and ease of fitting/removal. 

Do other people not share my prejudices?

Wren

PS.  Unable to make cleanup due to actual work and tiredness.  Did the Sundeala survive the purge?

[Mark Steward]

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Wren Montgomery <wren.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

PS.  Unable to make cleanup due to actual work and tiredness.  Did the Sundeala survive the purge?

 

Yup, assuming it's the stuff safely tucked away behind the other flat boards by the balcony door.

Mark

[Adrian Godwin]

It would certainly be odd as a desk, though I can't see that it would
stop you doing anything except writing.

I wasn't really thinking as a desk though - really, thinking what
other dual-use we could make of a table that's furry.

-adrian

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Wren Montgomery
<wren.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Adrian Godwin]

So ... if it will fit there as a board, would it still fit there when
covered in cork and brown paper ?

-adrian

[Wren Montgomery]

Storage in the woodpile was my original plan except no one thought it was a great one because if a neighboring piece of wood were removed carelessly it would gouge striaght through paper and cork.

Also a subsequent thought was that setting it up for use would be a total pain since I'm reasonably sure it would be too bulky for one person to move safely.  And that, I think, would discourage people from using it.

Wren
PS. Thanks for saving it!

[Adrian Godwin]

Fair enough.

How about fixing a whiteboard to the back of it and hanging it on a
wall ? Would probably need some sort of winch arrangement to avoid
suffering the same access problem, but easier than a ceiling winch and
avoids problems with lighting.

-adrian

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Wren Montgomery

[Wren Montgomery]

I'm not sure what you're proposing here:

using the cutting board on the wall -- not going to work

or

being able to unmount the board from the wall onto a table.  This isn't a bad idea although remember 360 access to the board is desirable but: short of mounting it on the windows, where is there that kind of free wall space?  (I agree about a winch -- I don't have the kind of upperbody strength needed tohoist a normal whiteboard onto a wall but less a giant block of sundeala and cork!)

I think perma-mounting it on a table and adding a protective layer really is the way to go; I will take a look at the acrylic when I am next around.

Wren

[Adrian Godwin]

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Wren Montgomery
<wren.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> being able to unmount the board from the wall onto a table.  This isn't a
> bad idea although remember 360 access to the board is desirable but: short
> of mounting it on the windows, where is there that kind of free wall space?

This. I'd forgotten about 360 access, it's true, though could be
arranged with slot-in hinges.

I was thinking the only bit of wall space big enough is where the
whiteboard is. So if you make one side of a board a whiteboard, and
the other side the cutting surface, hook it up it white side out for
whiteboard use and hinge it down (then detach if required) for cutting
use. Put the hinges at such a height that when it's hinged down it
falls flat & level on the tables.

-adrian

[Wren Montgomery]

Rather hilariously, I am unable to picture where the whiteboard in the space is!

What are slot-in hinges?

Wren 

[Adrian Godwin]

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Wren Montgomery
<wren.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rather hilariously, I am unable to picture where the whiteboard in the space
> is!
>

The one I'm thinking of is on the left-hand wall of the quiet room.

> What are slot-in hinges?
>
> Wren
>

For doors, they're hinges that are not fixed at the top, allowing the
door to be simply lifted off, leaving half the hinge behind. Also know
as rising-butt hinges, though that's really describing a different
feature. These could be used, but an even simpler arrangement (and one
that wouldn't be as fiddly to refit) could be used for hinges that are
horizontal. Imagine a couple of short bars on the edge of the board,
and matching troughs fixed to the wall - hinges that have the whole
side open. The weight of the panel keeps the pins in the groove, but
it can easily be lifted out and moved away from the wall with the
supporting table. These hinges can be made from scratch, or you can
just cut the side off certain types of normal hinge.

This has a couple of advantages over covering a table :

1. No chance of damage if someone removes / leaves off the cover or
spills something on it

2. the board can be bigger than a table

-adrian

[Wren Montgomery]

The size of the board is at the moment limited by the size of the sundeala we have...

I do not have the skillz to  make hinges, for sure.  But it's an intriguing idea.

I was thinking that people not interested in the cutting table would not remove the cover.  Maybe that's assuming too much?

I better get down to the space with a measuring tape...
Wren

[Adrian Godwin]

The board for this project is dangerously close to getting dumped, as
it's been stuck for a long while and is one of the pieces stupidly
stacked by the fire exit.

Can we please either finish it off or abandon it ?

-adrian


On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Wren Montgomery

[Wren Montgomery]

If it's in the way, dump it. There's to much for me to do on my own (especially since I've been short of time due to personal issues) and not enough concrete, non-bikeshedding interest from anyone else.

Wren

[Kimball Johnson]

I would really like the sundela if it is going to be dumped.  I can arrange for it to be picked up if it is going.  K

[Lauren (Shera)]

It would be a shame to abandon this project. 

Lots of good things could come from its presence, like we incubate more crafting businesses and Etsy shops.

In an attempt to inspire others to keep it going, here are photos of the cutting table I made a few years back using the same directions you're proposing to use here. 

Sorry they look a bit funny as they were taken during moving house.  Beware the familiar.

But look at all that surface for making good things, and in the second photo you can see the adjustable Ikea legs I picked up to support it.  It was huge in a great way, but the space's can be a more reasonable size ;)


Lauren (Shera)

[Adrian Godwin]

Like most projects, it just needs a champion to push it on and find solutions.

If Wren can't do it at the moment, can you take it over ?

-adrian

[Lauren (Shera)]

You're right.

Unfortunately, I'm in the wrong country at the moment and have my
hands full with Oxhack, or I would seriously consider it.

The usage of space has also shifted around a bit since I was last in--
is there, in fact, any agreement on where the table would be used and
how it would be stored? Is there, pure and simple, room now anywhere
near where the sewing machine lives?


Lauren

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

Here`s the deal.

Table 750 x 1200 with lid that acts as a protective surface and can be
used as an ordinary table when not in use. Table to live in quiet room as
a general use table, and either used in situ or moved to a more convenient
spot when required. For the few occasions that this item will be used, the
inconvenience of having cutting going on in the QR or having a table
missing therefrom for a few hours should not be too keenly felt.

Happy to knock this up this week if the above is useful. There is no cork
here but that can be put on later, most of the effort is in the making of
the frame.
Without lots of extra work and/or making it difficult to store, there is
not much alternative to the above plan so lets have a quick decision.
(That`s my polite way of saying "don`t bikeshed it to death")

Phil

--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 23:18:26 +0100, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Akki]

I'm going to bikeshed this further anyway.

We have no working sewing machine to my knowledge. This has been the case for a number of months and nothing's been done about it anyway. The previous history of the sewing machine(s) in the hackspace is: people think it's broken, take it apart, put it back together wrongly or replace parts wrongly, sewing machine breaks. Unless we can protect against hacking of the sewing machine, I don't think a sewing machine is going to live very long in a hackspace environment.

Taking into account of the above, do we really need this table *now* in this space? Can this just be moved to the back burner untii we move to a new, bigger hackspace?  IMHO, I'd rather see something amazingly huge like 2m x 2m, which just isn't possible in the current space anyway.

~Akki

[Wren Montgomery]

I don't think many people in the space have the reach to use a 2m x 2m cutting table.  Also: that is a *lot* of cork.

Wren

[Wren Montgomery]

Second, the point of having a cutting table in the space was never to facilitate use of the LHS sewing machine.  Most of the interested parties have their own sewing machines at home -- and I certainly prefer to use my own machine, which I maintain and control access to; what I don't have at home is enough flat space to cut patterns out on.  (In my new place, I don't even have enough floor.)

Wren

[Wren Montgomery]

Thank you, Phil -- I do appreciate the offer. If it is built, I could call in the pledge and try to get it corked either in the last two weeks of August or (gulp) October. 

There will be aslightly inconvenient period where either the table will have to be upended or all the flat heavy things in the hackspace will have to be on it, to keep the cork flat while it dries.

Wren

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

So,

Utility of table is not dependent on availability of other equipment.

Size (which is restricted by the material available and the dimensions of
a "general use" table) is sufficient for most tasks.

Cork required for finishing will be forthcoming (If someone can arrange
the delivery of same to the `space then I am quite happy to apply the
stuff when it arrives.)

Any other observations before I start?

Phil

--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

Ik ben zo blij voor je .... en ik hoop dat je hier veel gelukkige uren

Had een goede reis terug, en nu weer aan het werk .... (
Ik vergat te vermelden, de slang `s naam is HUNSLETT.

[Wren Montgomery]

I have ordered this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Cork-Gasket-Roll-1-8-1000mm-x-1500mm-/260837750487?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3cbb2436d7

to the space.  Is there somewhere I'm supposed to edit the wiki to reflect the expected delivery?

If it turns out to be too thin, we can experiment with adding another layer.

Still needed: wood glue and kraft paper for covering.

Phil--happy to come help after next Tuesday.

thanks
Wren

[Adrian Godwin]

I still have a large roll of brown paper for covering.

-adrian

[Wren Montgomery]

Thank you!

Once Phil has built the frame, would you be willing to stow it underneath with some sort of appropriate warning on it?  I don't really expect a roll of paper to go unmolested in any hackspace, but there ought to always be enough on hand to recover the table in case of emergencies (such as a club mate spill, pizza incident, etc.)

Wren

[Adrian Godwin]

Don't really want to donate the whole roll, but I'm certainly happy to
cut enough for a couple of replacements and see how it works out.

-adrian


On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Wren Montgomery

[Adrian Godwin]

It's 900mm wide, I'm assuming it's OK to tape or glue multiple strips.

-adrian

[Wren Montgomery]

Table is 750mm across!  Cut a couple of 2m pieces and it should be OK, unless my geometry is wrong.

I'll see if I still have a spare mailing tube to store it in.

thanks
Wren

[Lauren (Shera)]

Thank you Phil!

A few things.

When I made mine, I found rubber cement to best actually keep
everything in place. I forget how I determined this, but it was about
the third thing I ended up trying.

It will be important to keep any and all heat sources away from the
table surface. This means 100% NO ironing on the table. The surface
will buckle up. Perhaps this means the "lid" material should be of
some substance allowing ironing upon? Iron your items on the lid,
open it and then cut on the cutting surface?

Thickness of cork may be an issue yes. How thick it needs to be
depends on how deep you want to be able to stick any pins (I ended up
wishing I'd gone with thicker myself) and on the diameter of people's
rotary cutters if they will be used. Large diameter rotary cutters +
enthusiasm is a bad combination and regardless of cork thickness, we
should prepare for the cork to flake if people use it this way much.
Now if we only allow scissors, it's a bit of a drag but likely to last
longer. So cork is likely to be a consumable here, given the abuse
stuff takes in the space. Not sure whether that affects anything in
the design.

Regarding paper, we should fit a roll hanger to one end of the table,
perhaps underneath the table unrolling upwards, so it won't interfere
with placement against walls. This means the table legs would have to
be placed slightly more towards the center of the table to allow space
for a full-length roller of the width of the table.

Lastly, most people like these to be waist height, hence the
adjustable legs I used (Ikea). Do we want to bother? And if it will
be moved from room to room, perhaps lockable wheels are in order.

Just my 2p.

Thanks again Phil.



Lauren

[Wren Montgomery]

Thank you for the tip about rubber cement -- the internet had suggesed wood glue.

The relative thinness of the cork is balanced out by the fact that pins can be driven through and secured to the sundeala, which is also used for bulletin boards!    I don't think it will be a problem; if it is we can add another layer of cork over the first.

I am far less concerned about ironing (isn't there an ironing board in the space?) that I am about overheating laptops and inappropriate use of soldering irons.

I repeat from much earlier bikeshedding: choice of cutting device is up to the user; using a rotary cutter on paper covered cork will require care because it will damage the table and blunt the rotary cutter.  

Rotary cutters are designed to work with rotary cutter mats, NOT cutting tables.  So if you want to use a rotary cutter on a cutting table, you're going to have to find out how to use it properly.

If any user feels strongly about this, they can set up their own pledge to buy a big 2'x3' mat.

This falls in the same category as misuse of the laser cutter or big workshop tools; as summarized in the wiki -- and there will be appropriate warnings added: "Everybody using equipment in the space is expected to look after that equipment. That means finding out how to use it properly. If you break something and there were guidelines here that would have avoided it, that's not just an unfortunate accident, it's YOUR FAULT. Take responsibility. If the warnings were wrong or insufficient, correct them. That's your responsibility too."

I think the roll hanger falls into the category of too much work, frankly.  Unless you can source and provide the parts in time for Phil to add it.

Wren 

[Wren Montgomery]

Addendum.  Since the cork is GLUED TO the sundeala, it's not a consumable.  Serious damage to the cork will be serious damage to the entire thing.

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Lauren (Shera) <killas...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nick Bradbeer]

That would be an advantage of using rubber cement - fairly easy to rip off and replace damaged cork tiles.

Nick

[Wren Montgomery]

It's not tiles; too rough.  It's a single smooth piece of cork.

Wren

[Alex Pounds]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 04:23:10PM +0100, Wren Montgomery wrote:
> This falls in the same category as misuse of the laser cutter or big
> workshop tools; as summarized in the wiki -- and there will be appropriate
> warnings added: "Everybody using equipment in the space is expected to look
> after that equipment. That means finding out how to use it properly."

Equally, most people are going to presume that they know how to use a
table. If we can't keep unskilled/untrained people away from the lathe &
laser cutter – big, complicated, obviously dangerous machines – the
chances of keeping them away from the table are small. This should be
factored into the plan from the start – the easiest way would be to make
the lid lockable.


--
Alex Pounds
Web Developer & Photographer

http://alexpounds.com/ | http://ethicsgirls.com/

[Simon Howes]

Seconded. A bit clean flat area sounds exactly like the sort of thing some douche will do painting and glueing, or blowtorch plumbing-soldering on. Or just leave heavy, greasy, rusty shit on.

A 99p padlock fitting makes them do it on the lid instead

[Wren Montgomery]

that is an excellent idea, how would key control be implemented? would a combination lock be a better idea?

[Adrian Godwin]

Weren't we going to hinge it down from the wall ?

If the edge were attached to the electrically operated projector
screen, the entire mechanism could be controlled by RFID card and
enabled through your member's account, linked to london-thread-space.

-adrian

[Wren Montgomery]

A freestanding table with a lockable cover is infinitely preferable to a fixed table with a complicated access system! 

Also: london-thread-space has had nothing to do with it...
wren

[David Murphy]

It'd be great if the door system could be extended to locks on tools, wave oyster card to unlock.

[Dave Ingram]

On 09/08/12 11:32, David Murphy wrote:

It'd be great if the door system could be extended to locks on tools, wave oyster card to unlock.

You mean like http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:Tool_Access_Control perhaps?


D

�

�

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Wren Montgomery <wren.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

A freestanding table with a lockable cover is infinitely preferable to a fixed table with a complicated access system!�

>>> laser cutter � big, complicated, obviously dangerous machines � the

>>> chances of keeping them away from the table are small. This should be

>>> factored into the plan from the start � the easiest way would be to make

[David Murphy]

if a software guy can be any use I'd be happy to help out on that.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Dave Ingram <da...@dmi.me.uk> wrote:

On 09/08/12 11:32, David Murphy wrote:

It'd be great if the door system could be extended to locks on tools, wave oyster card to unlock.

You mean like http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:Tool_Access_Control perhaps?

D

 

 

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Wren Montgomery <wren.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

A freestanding table with a lockable cover is infinitely preferable to a fixed table with a complicated access system! 

>>> laser cutter – big, complicated, obviously dangerous machines – the

>>> chances of keeping them away from the table are small. This should be

>>> factored into the plan from the start – the easiest way would be to make